Can we now admit the new 7th Sea is floundering?

[Shipyard Locked]

I'll admit I was deeply disappointed in the 2nd edition of 7th Sea, the most successful tabletop RPG kickstarter at the time. I bought the book (post-kickstarter) and thought about it long and hard before deciding to sit on it for a while. I figured the huge community that certainly had to exist for this thing would eventually persuade me out of my resistance.

But it has been more than a year, and I look around and see a shockingly minuscule community for the product of that gigantic kickstarter and very little actual play. Consider some evidence:

As of today's date, Enworld's Hot Roleplaying Games chart doesn't even list it as a topic of conversation. People are still talking about BESM and Earthdawn, but not 7th Sea?:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/hotgames.php

The Orr Report of who's playing what on roll20 doesn't list 7th Sea as a distinct category. Way down the list there is a parenthetical mention of its 1st edition under the umbrella of AEG games (not 2nd edition's parent, and I suspect that category is at least 90% L5R players anyway). This is a list that still includes separate entries for games like The Dark Eye and the Dragon Age RPG:
http://blog.roll20.net/post/159952619415/the-orr-group-industry-report-q1-2017

Here's the main 7th Sea 2nd ed reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/
Compare it to the main Deadlands reddit (a game that has been mostly dormant for 5 to 10 years depending on what you think of the kickstarted products from a few years ago): https://www.reddit.com/r/Deadlands/
Both have a pretty low number of members, but Deadlands still has a hundred and twenty more (672 vs 792 at the time of posting).

More anecdotally, I've run into very little commentary online, and a lot of it comes off as very 'polite'. Polite in the sense that you feel negative opinions are being held back or minced for some reason. A lot of it also just comes off as straight up skeptical.

Overall, this has the whiff of late stage White Wolf products about it: People briefly gush about owning this book for whatever reason, but very few people are actually playing it.

If someone has other sources to shoot me down with they are welcome to do so, but note that I'm not focusing on sales, I'm focusing on actual play.

So, given what was expected of it, can we admit the second edition has been something of a flop? If so, what went wrong?

 

[TristramEvans]

In general, even after all this time, I have no idea how much online chatter correlates to people actually playing games. In the dozen or so game groups I've been a part of since the early aughts I've only met one other person who'd ever set foot on an online gaming forum. So, that isnt a comment on whether 7th Sea was a flop or not, I was underwhelmed enough with the original game that I paid no attention to the Kickstarter. But I also see very little discussion of the Doctor Who RPG, which I not only think is an absolutely superb system and presentation, but still seems to be regularly pumping out supplements and new editions going into the span of four Doctors' tenures, so somebody must be playing this game besides myself.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

But I also see very little discussion of the Doctor Who RPG, which I not only think is an absolutely superb system and presentation, but still seems to be regularly pumping out supplements and new editions going into the span of four Doctors' tenures, so somebody must be playing this game besides myself.

The thing is, look at the ENworld link I provided in the first post (http://www.enworld.org/forum/hotgames.php).

Dr. Who is right there in 33rd place, which sounds about right and respectable. No version of 7th Sea anywhere on the chart.

This was supposed to be a big deal, the triumphant return of a beloved setting, the biggest kickstarter in tabletop rpg history at that point by several magnitudes. Where did that hyped up fanbase go?

 

[noman]

Probably not helpful, but I have two thoughts:

First, I've learned to be extremely skeptical when looking at any web-based analysis of a AFK, real-world subject. In this case, the Web's conclusions about how many people are playing 7th Sea vs. how many people are actually playing it AFK.

Often times these metrics and conclusions are wrong, or at the very least, off.

Second, does the lack of activity online (production, forum activity, etc.) in reduce 7th Sea's viability as a game?

Don't get me wrong, you're probably right. But the Web isn't really a realiable source of information about this kind of thing.

Maybe more people are playing than you think? Maybe 7th is dormant, but not dead, and will show signs of life later on (like what Exalted3 is doing now). Who knows.

*Shrugs*

Sorry if this isn't really helpful.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

In the area of purely anecdotal evidence, Numenara got a video game release, but 7th Sea's attempt at a video game Kickstarter bombed pretty massively.

I bought the book, mostly because I missed the original at the time and thought "what the Hell?". I've never been able to actually finish it. Seems alright, I guess, but I need more than "alright" to get a game at the table anymore.

 

[Raleel]

We played it, we liked it, I don't foresee a campaign of more than a few games to be honest. You have to be pretty invested in the world.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

First, I've learned to be extremely skeptical when looking at any web-based analysis of a AFK, real-world subject.

That is very fair skepticism, which is why I gathered different sources and wanted to see what others found for or against my conclusion. For instance...

... Numenara got a video game release, but 7th Sea's attempt at a video game Kickstarter bombed pretty massively.

Ouch, didn't know about that, but he's right: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1861515217/voyage-of-fortunes-star-a-7th-sea-crpg/

Second, does the lack of activity online (production, forum activity, etc.) in reduce 7th Sea's viability as a game?

No, of course not if you believe the game is viable, but I do I see it as possible proof for the following things I currently believe:
- Most of the new rules and many of the setting changes were bad ideas.
- The creators went all George-Lucas-in-denial and doubled down on things they shouldn't have because there was insufficient internal conversation about what customers actually want.
- Most established fans were disappointed by the new rules and some of the setting changes. They wanted a cleaned up 1st edition, not a throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater revamp that couldn't really build on what came before.
- Many disappointed fans who paid for the kickstarter are staying quiet about their disengagement out of denial and/or respect for the creators.
- The few campaigns that are currently happening are flavor-of-the-moment affairs and the game in its current form will never become a long running go-to classic.

 

[noman]

*Revists SL's links*

*Considers the above-mentioned, additional information*

*Thinks*

*Spends a lot of time doing this, because thinking is really hard for me*

Yep, you're right. 7th is sunk. Like my bank balance after a Steam sale.

 

[Endless Flight]

I think there is some correlation to how much a game is talked about online to how many people are playing it out there in the real world. If nobody is bringing it up online, I would tend to think there isn't much excitement out in the real world either.

 

[Baulderstone]

I agree that online discussion isn't a sure metric, but it is odd that this game has gone so silent so quickly. Almost any game that made as much money as 7th Sea should have made a fair amount of chatter for a year or so. We should be in the middle of the honeymoon phase.

Tristram is right that there isn't much chatter about Doctor Who, but it came out in 2009, and I remember it getting a good amount of discussion at the time. Someone was talking to me last week about how much they like it, in fact. It is just that people have hashed out most of what needs to be said on it.

When I first started running Savage Worlds in 2004, I was a regular on the Pinnacle boards for a few years, and got into lots of discussions about it. I still play it at least once a year or so, and I like it. It's just that I get it now. I know what it does well. I know what it does poorly. I know what it can be tweaked to do. There isn't a lot for me to get out of online discussion.

It seems surprising that 7th Sea would hit that point so early. The thing that seems odd to me is that you would think that even if people were disappointed by it, there would be some kind of noisy backlash. 7th Sea should be the best game ever or the worst game ever according to people that bought it, at least on the Internet I know.

 

[TristramEvans]

We played it, we liked it, I don't foresee a campaign of more than a few games to be honest. You have to be pretty invested in the world.

the world is what killed my interest in the original, to be honest. Because it was "not Europe", which I understand is an easy entry for gamers without being constrained by history, but ended up being a hundred times less interesting than actual historical Europe of that time period, at least IMHO. I just thought the veneer was really shallow. Maybe enough for a comic or film's story as a starting premise, but not engaging enough for me as a roleplayer (and admitted history buff).

 

[Baulderstone]

the world is what killed my interest in the original, to be honest. Because it was "not Europe", which I understand is an easy entry for gamers without being constrained by history, but ended up being a hundred times less interesting than actual historical Europe of that time period, at least IMHO. I just thought the veneer was really shallow. Maybe enough for a comic or film's story as a starting premise, but not engaging enough for me as a roleplayer (and admitted history buff).

It felt like a setting where the designer had a short attention span and kept forgetting what he was doing. I bought the game to play swashbuckling pirate stuff. Instead, Napoleon was running around, and there were Germans wearing massive plate armor, and weird magical bloodlines for the nobility. And there were was nothing in the setting for pirates to do. The game had one job, and it forgot to do it.

Even ideas that were kind of cool still didn't quite work for me. The idea of each nation having its own magical bloodline didn't really seem that swashbuckling, but I interesting to give a chance. However, most of the magical types simple didn't feel right for nobility. They weren't the kind of magic that suggested Majesty. The magic where you could reach through horrifying tears in reality to grab things was cool, but it was neither swashbuckling nor the kind of thing I see a king doing. It felt like something from a thieves guild in a dark fantasy setting. Nothing in the game felt like it fit together right.

The system might have cool, but I was so put off by the setting that I never really gave it a fair shot.

 

[Future Villain Band]

Their forums seem pretty active. http://www.7thsea2e.com/port/forum

 

[CRKrueger]

Remember, that was a "we're giving away the whole first edition pdfs too" kickstarter, so easy to appeal to completists, people who like to read game books, or those just mining for ideas, none of whom might be interested in playing 7S2 at all.

 

[Tommy Brownell]

Remember, that was a "we're giving away the whole first edition pdfs too" kickstarter, so easy to appeal to completists, people who like to read game books, or those just mining for ideas, none of whom might be interested in playing 7S2 at all.

That's become a pretty standard thing for these new edition Kickstarters. Unknown Armies and Feng Shui did the same thing.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

It felt like a setting where the designer had a short attention span and kept forgetting what he was doing.

There definitely was a "left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing" vibe to the line the longer it went on. Even the distinctive national sorceries, one of the best features of the setting in my opinion, were inconsistently handled and started to overlap pretty quickly.

Their forums seem pretty active. http://www.7thsea2e.com/port/forum

That's the liveliest hub so far, definitely. I'm still not really impressed though. Examine the Dr. Who RPG forum for comparison: http://dwaitas.proboards.com/
The post numbers are a bit off for a record breaking game in its 'honeymoon phase', wouldn't you say?

It also does nothing to address the other metrics, unless someone can explain to me how ENworld or Kickstarter or Roll20 are out to get 7th Sea or something.

Remember, that was a "we're giving away the whole first edition pdfs too" kickstarter, so easy to appeal to completists, people who like to read game books, or those just mining for ideas, none of whom might be interested in playing 7S2 at all.

As I recall, that's specifically why you picked it up, right?

 

[Future Villain Band]

That's the liveliest hub so far, definitely. I'm still not really impressed though. Examine the Dr. Who RPG forum for comparison: http://dwaitas.proboards.com/
The post numbers are a bit off for a record breaking game in its 'honeymoon phase', wouldn't you say?

It also does nothing to address the other metrics, unless someone can explain to me how ENworld or Kickstarter or Roll20 are out to get 7th Sea or something.

I don't think the other metrics are metrics. According to ENWorld, something called WOIN is a top non-D&D RPG that's two or three times more popular than Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, or Deadlands. WOIN is a game I've never heard of anybody playing, never seen anybody buy at a con, and never heard anybody talk about. I don't doubt that the game is out there or even that it's popular, but I also think that if people can accidentally or purposely spoof Google's search engine, whatever weird thing ENWorld uses can suffer the same thing.

The RPG hobby is a weird and fragmented thing. The only people who know their sales are the people actually doing the selling. I know quite a few people on the business end, and I don't know of any secret point-of-sale or measurement system that reliably catches any data at all worth anything. And as for play, games and pockets of gaming can exist completely independent of the Internet or in weird places on the Internet. I would be very hesitant to drawn any conclusions about 7th Sea, myself.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

I don't think the other metrics are metrics. According to ENWorld, something called WOIN is a top non-D&D RPG that's two or three times more popular than Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, or Deadlands. WOIN is a game I've never heard of anybody playing, never seen anybody buy at a con, and never heard anybody talk about. I don't doubt that the game is out there or even that it's popular, but I also think that if people can accidentally or purposely spoof Google's search engine, whatever weird thing ENWorld uses can suffer the same thing.

The RPG hobby is a weird and fragmented thing. The only people who know their sales are the people actually doing the selling. I know quite a few people on the business end, and I don't know of any secret point-of-sale or measurement system that reliably catches any data at all worth anything. And as for play, games and pockets of gaming can exist completely independent of the Internet or in weird places on the Internet. I would be very hesitant to drawn any conclusions about 7th Sea, myself.

These are all good points (seriously, what the fuck is WOIN?), none of which I currently have much of an counter to, except that I do want to reiterate that I'm looking for how many people are actually playing it, not sales. Obviously the initial book got into a lot of people's hands through the enormous, supposedly seismic kickstarter that somehow hasn't made much of an impression outside of its own anemic forum.

My antipathy toward the game could certainly be clouding my judgement. To me, this just feels like the sort of thing people want to like in theory, but won't actually commit to in practice.

 

[The Butcher]

Can't speak for the popularity of 7th Sea but it's a game I've always had a few pet peeves with.

I'm more than fine with setting your game in Fantasy Ersatzland, but not only some key pieces are missing (the New World's role is downplayed), the extraneous additions (nobles as hereditary sorcerers, except in not-Germany because they have adamantium or something, and a stand-in for the Church that's actually progressist and scientificist. Also we can't tell the Dutch, the Hanseatic League and Enlightenment Tsarist Russia apart) make for a weird setting that should not at all look like C16 Europe.

I find the amount of hoops they make the setting jump through super weird and contrived. Sure, it's a fantasy setting with no commitment to historical emulation, but the layering of fantasy elements on a historical substratum (a time-honored worldbuilding technique in RPGs) feels haphazard and inconsistent and challenges my (not too stringent, I swear) suspension of disbelief.

 

[Future Villain Band]

These are all good points (seriously, what the fuck is WOIN?), none of which I currently have much of an counter to, except that I do want to reiterate that I'm looking for how many people are actually playing it, not sales. Obviously the initial book got into a lot of people's hands through the enormous, supposedly seismic kickstarter that somehow hasn't made much of an impression outside of its own anemic forum.

My antipathy toward the game could certainly be clouding my judgement. To me, this just feels like the sort of thing people want to like in theory, but won't actually commit to in practice.

You could be right about the game -- I didn't invest in it and haven't read the corebook, and there might be genuine problems that keep it from being played. I just always caution people about relying on something like various pundits railing about a specific game in blog posts, Amazon sales ranks or ENWorld's system or whatever, because none of them really capture the big picture. That doesn't mean your judgment is wrong.

 

[Dirk Remmecke]

According to ENWorld, something called WOIN is a top non-D&D RPG that's two or three times more popular than Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, or Deadlands. WOIN is a game I've never heard of anybody playing, never seen anybody buy at a con, and never heard anybody talk about.

You can't see anybody buying WOIN at a con because it's a Drivethru PDF and PoD game.

(seriously, what the fuck is WOIN?)

WOIN is an acronym for "What's Old Is New", with O.L.D. and N.E.W. being two versions (one fantasy, one sci-fi) of a universal RPG engine that was developed and published by ENworld staff.
It's no wonder it gets talked about (and played) on ENworld. (And despite the idiotic title, it's worth a look. It's a dice pool system similar to Open d6.)

 

[CRKrueger]

EDIT: Made a new thread for WOIN.

 

[yojimbouk]

I can understand the disappointment with 7th Sea. Both the name and the cover of the GM's Guide made it look like it was a pirate game when it's, in fact, a fantasy game set in an analogue of 17th century Europe.

I had the same problem with Deadlands. I was expecting a spaghetti weird western RPG and what I got was an alternate history setting focused on its meta plot.

Still, 7th Sea 2nd Edition has at least tried to address the pirate issue by now having a not-Americas continent to the west along with a not-Caribbean.

As for the success of 7S2, I don't think it was ever massively popular in the 90/2000s. I remember it getting slated on RPG.net when it came out for the use of large amounts of white space and large fonts in the books. Also, there was a lot of dislike for Syrneth and the ancient aliens subplot. It was never as popular as AEG's other game L5R and AEG cancelled the 7th Sea card game pretty quickly. The statistics quoted in this thread about 7S2 seem to match my impression of 7th Sea's popularity in the 90s. I have to admit to being surprised at the massive amount of money raised by the Kickstarter campaign. Perhaps, it was because Wick planned a whole line of books and offered pledge levels to get supplements as well as the core book. There seems to have been some support for its 3PP program (Explorer's Society) but only of the order of Traveller, Cortex or Cypher.

 

[Spinachcat]

Have any of you played 7S2e?

I bought Yarr! instead.

 

[opaopajr]

... but damn, weren't those 1e nation splat covers gorgeous?

(I was there for when 7th Sea CCG was being promoed at Cons and special FLGS. Wasn't really into it, but sorta loved the card art and personalities. I was really looking forward to the RPG? And somehow all that swashbucking content in the CCG never really made it to the ersatz Europe description. And that map blew me the fuck away -- where's all the islands and seas and terra incognita for piracy?

Always seemed like a bait and switch game with some amazing cover artists.)

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Have any of you played 7S2e?

No, and I guess that is a little unfair of me.

These guys did though, and their commentary is reasonable and matches a lot of the 'polite' lukewarm reception that has typified responses to the game in my anecdotal observation:
https://undergopher.com/2016/07/10/ud223-7th-sea-part-two/

 

[Baulderstone]

... but damn, weren't those 1e nation splat covers gorgeous?

(I was there for when 7th Sea CCG was being promoed at Cons and special FLGS. Wasn't really into it, but sorta loved the card art and personalities. I was really looking forward to the RPG? And somehow all that swashbucking content in the CCG never really made it to the ersatz Europe description. And that map blew me the fuck away -- where's all the islands and seas and terra incognita for piracy?

Always seemed like a bait and switch game with some amazing cover artists.)

I was managing a FLGS when the card game came out. I played it at GenCon and, like you, I liked the concept but wasn't into the game at all. I didn't carry it, but it had me interested in the upcoming RPG. LIke you, I felt it was a complete bait and switch. On top of that, I wasn't sure what was switched in.

Bait and switch isn't always bad. I got into WFRP via the minis game, and I was not expecting what I got at all. It didn't matter because it was awesome and invited me to play. I wasn't even sure what a game of 7th Sea was supposed to look like.

I had a similar problem with John Wick's Legend of the FIve Rings RPG as well. It spend to so much time lecturing me about how not to play the game. For example, you weren't supposed to have mixed-clan groups of Samurai wandering around, yet mechanically, you had two character classes for each clan (one samurai and one shugenja). A group made of one clan felt too mechanically similar. And for all the time the game spent on telling you how not to play, it didn't present any campaign models for what to do.

I did run a successful short game of L5R drawing on my own knowledge from living in Japan, watching Japanese movies and reading Japanese history and novels. I came to the conclusion after 7th Sea that John Wick just doesn't make the kind of games that give me what I want as a GM. That doesn't make him a bad designer, as other people like his stuff. I have just stayed away since then.

 

[Sommerjon]

... but damn, weren't those 1e nation splat covers gorgeous?

(I was there for when 7th Sea CCG was being promoed at Cons and special FLGS. Wasn't really into it, but sorta loved the card art and personalities. I was really looking forward to the RPG? And somehow all that swashbucking content in the CCG never really made it to the ersatz Europe description. And that map blew me the fuck away -- where's all the islands and seas and terra incognita for piracy?

Always seemed like a bait and switch game with some amazing cover artists.)

I played the CCG. I liked the concept, but I bowed out of the 'scene' in my then area when that group of unmarried folks got into it and out-bought everyone else. Gave mere lip service to the RPG.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

More anecdotes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/comments/6fpfjn/trying_again_first_impressions_and_second_thoughts/

https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/comments/6fetgo/challenging_players/

 

[Caesar Slaad]

Can't say about anyone but myself or locally, but I don't know anyone playing it locally.

I dig the idea of a swashbuckling psuedo-fantasy, but am not a big fan of dice pool systems in general. I didn't see playing it long term, so I decided to play wait-and-see.

 

[Spinachcat]

No, and I guess that is a little unfair of me.

What's keeping you from doing a one shot with your crew?

How is the 2e system? Does the game read well enough?

EDIT - okay, I read all the links. Holy fuck. I will post about Yarr if it ever shows up.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

What's keeping you from doing a one shot with your crew?

I have nearly zero confidence in the system I read (especially after my struggles with the much more appealing but fatally flawed 1st edition) and my current pool of players would sense it.

 

[opaopajr]

Well, what did they change to the game? It needed a considerable bit of changing, as the Drama Dice were not working for my "genre feels," and several of the merits/benefits were grotesquely overpowered in short-circuiting Quest Adventure. That and I have my issues with Roll Keep system as too often Traits became more important than bothering with Skills in L5R.

It was one of those games where after being a casual player in a campaign I just looked at the experience and thought, "Better off using TSR D&D. Quicker chargen, faster resolution, easier probability estimation, less Merit/Flaw or Widget pyrotechnics, less Perpetual Awesome Explosion Machine!, etc."

So I expect big changes to resolution mechanics before I'd dive in again. And that's before I'd take an editing pen to the setting... (like draw a map of other continents and islands, so there's stuff worth fighting over?)

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Well, what did they change to the game?

Go listen to the podcast I linked in post #26, they did a pretty good break down. Suffice to say, it's a very story-gamey "roll to see how awesome you are" deal, but strange enough that even people familiar with such games are unsure of what to make of it.

Meanwhile, more people talking about how they feel about the 2nd edition:

https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/comments/6dnhg9/so_whats_everybody_think_of_7th_sea_2e_now/

Relevant quote from that thread:

The silver lining for me was that I found Honor + Intrigue when looking for a replacement ruleset after I was disappointed by 2e.

And this is from someone who:

Loves story games and

Never played 1e.

 

[OHT]

Remember, that was a "we're giving away the whole first edition pdfs too" kickstarter, so easy to appeal to completists, people who like to read game books, or those just mining for ideas, none of whom might be interested in playing 7S2 at all.

I think this is the main reason the KS was so successful. It had the added bonus of making other KS see the sense in adding back catalogues as targets or whatever you call them.

 

[CRKrueger]

As I recall, that's specifically why you picked it up, right?

Yep, that's the main reason. For all-in pdfs of everything old and new, it was a no-brainer. By itself, no interest really.

I think this is the main reason the KS was so successful. It had the added bonus of making other KS see the sense in adding back catalogues as targets or whatever you call them.

Yeah, I almost wish Modiphius hadn't tossed in the whole Mongoose run of Conan d20. I think it masked a lot of "meh" about the system. I mean a Conan game, two full systems worth of pdfs, and they didn't come close to 7th Sea.

An L5R "all-in pdf history of the whole gameline" would be pretty epic I think.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

An L5R "all-in pdf history of the whole gameline" would be pretty epic I think.

Certainly, but L5R's current edition (4th) is actually pretty solid and definitive, so I'd be wary of a new edition getting kick-started.

 

[The Butcher]

Certainly, but L5R's current edition (4th) is actually pretty solid and definitive

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Oh?

 

[The Butcher]

Oh?

I'll believe gaming publishers willing to drop out of the edition treadmill when civilization collapses, or books are outlawed or something. Until then? I have my doubts.