Warhammer Fantasy/40K RPG Megathread

[Ghost Whistler]

Well, unless you wanted to have a say in the metaplot - as well as winning some L5R swag for yourself, tournament rewards included getting to make story choices that could affect both your clan's storyline and the game line's, something arguably more important to the L5R fanbase. As an RPG player, you didn't get that chance.

Nowadays, I presume they'd run "Living Rokugan" events at cons, so roleplayers could take part. But those would be tie-ins to the CCG's arc, rather than the RPG getting to go in it's own direction.

Sure you did. As a GM you could edit the setting as you see fit. You could make Bayushi Kachiko empress and have Fu Leng be made of cheese! Whatever!

Otherwise I don't get the complaint. It's like saying the Star Wars rpg is a vanity project/failure/bad thing because George Lucas decided the story and not the players. What if I wanted the Empire to win and not the Rebels? What if I wanted Darth Vader not to be Luke's dad?

I'd need to see evidence that these metaplot changes, which are the privilege of every RPG developer ever, were actually a problem that affected the game. In reality the writers took the results of tournaments and used those to design the narrative around which the next set of cards were based. It wasn't that players literally wrote that themselves or even designed cards and text. It was simply based on the outcome of sanctioned play. If Lion clan wins all the tournaments, then the writers can decide that Lion Daimyo becomes Emperor. If they lose, well notsomuch.

Every rpg setting is the sole purview of the developer. Your only right as a paying customer is to take what they have created and work with it, or buy something else. Have there been any rpgs that were designed as an ongoing concern by the consensus of its players?

 

[Ladybird]

Sure you did. As a GM you could edit the setting as you see fit. You could make Bayushi Kachiko empress and have Fu Leng be made of cheese! Whatever!

Otherwise I don't get the complaint. It's like saying the Star Wars rpg is a vanity project/failure/bad thing because George Lucas decided the story and not the players. What if I wanted the Empire to win and not the Rebels? What if I wanted Darth Vader not to be Luke's dad?

I'd need to see evidence that these metaplot changes, which are the privilege of every RPG developer ever, were actually a problem that affected the game. In reality the writers took the results of tournaments and used those to design the narrative around which the next set of cards were based. It wasn't that players literally wrote that themselves or even designed cards and text. It was simply based on the outcome of sanctioned play. If Lion clan wins all the tournaments, then the writers can decide that Lion Daimyo becomes Emperor. If they lose, well notsomuch.

Every rpg setting is the sole purview of the developer. Your only right as a paying customer is to take what they have created and work with it, or buy something else. Have there been any rpgs that were designed as an ongoing concern by the consensus of its players?

You could do whatever at your own table. That's obvious. That doesn't need to be said.

But if you played the CCG, you actually got to affect the game line (Albeit, yes, by getting to decide whether the plot goes way A or way B - but in most gamelines players don't get any say whatsoever, or you get something halfassed like GW's "players determine the outcome of this storyline! Wait, not like that. Er... Orcs show up, everyone gets punched in the face, and we never speak of this again"). Your play mattered.

Nobody is claiming that this is a problem. The point people are making at you is that the CCG was the driver of the franchise, period. Everything else was secondary to the interests of the CCG players.

But all this is in the thread. You've been here the entire time. I don't feel that I need to summarise it for you, when you've read the same stuff I have.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Sure you did. As a GM you could edit the setting as you see fit. You could make Bayushi Kachiko empress and have Fu Leng be made of cheese! Whatever!

Otherwise I don't get the complaint. It's like saying the Star Wars rpg is a vanity project/failure/bad thing because George Lucas decided the story and not the players. What if I wanted the Empire to win and not the Rebels? What if I wanted Darth Vader not to be Luke's dad?

I'd need to see evidence that these metaplot changes, which are the privilege of every RPG developer ever, were actually a problem that affected the game. In reality the writers took the results of tournaments and used those to design the narrative around which the next set of cards were based. It wasn't that players literally wrote that themselves or even designed cards and text. It was simply based on the outcome of sanctioned play. If Lion clan wins all the tournaments, then the writers can decide that Lion Daimyo becomes Emperor. If they lose, well notsomuch.

Every rpg setting is the sole purview of the developer. Your only right as a paying customer is to take what they have created and work with it, or buy something else. Have there been any rpgs that were designed as an ongoing concern by the consensus of its players?

Are youbdelibarately ignoring the point or is there a condition we are unaware of at play here?

A game that is not particularly profitable, as has been explained, is a vanity project. A project that exists for no reason other than someone at the company that makes it, doesn't mind not making money from it.

What part of that, which has been explained multie times,do you not understand?

L5R,because of the nature of the way the players of the card game could directly influence plot and setri g developments, could and did change in illogical, even nonsensical ways.

Combined that with the rapid development cycle of the card game and the slower cycles of the RPG. The RPG got left behind, often with multiple story developments between publications. So that by the time the third book in a line came out, basic setting information had changed, almost out of recognition.

Saying "But I can put whatever I want in my game" doesnt alter the fact that a book that starts with the line "Six months after the Scorpion Clan Coup" puts a game that has neither ran the particular module that particular event has taken place in, nor built up to it in any way, is going to find that book increasingly difficult to use at the table.

Imagine book 1 in the Star Wars line being the first movie era. But book 2 is the prequels and book 4 is the last movie that came out.

That is what L5R RPG players were dealing with.

 

[Baulderstone]

It's ridiculous to call the L5R RPG a vanity project. Calling something a vanity project suggests only the author cares about it. I ran a game store, and the L5R RPG not only sold well, it got a good amount of play at that the table in my store. I think its just a case that RPGs were never as profitable as CCGs. To a company making both, the RPG is always going to look weak. It's a similar situation to the one with the WHFB and WFRP over at Games Workshop, where the mini game makes so much more than than the RPG. So while it was never a vanity project, it was definitely "a red-headed stepchild" situation.

 

[Stevethulhu]

It's ridiculous to call the L5R RPG a vanity project. Calling something a vanity project suggests only the author cares about it. I ran a game store, and the L5R RPG not only sold well, it got a good amount of play at that the table in my store. I think its just a case that RPGs were never as profitable as CCGs. To a company making both, the RPG is always going to look weak. It's a similar situation to the one with the WHFB and WFRP over at Games Workshop, where the mini game makes so much more than than the RPG. So while it was never a vanity project, it was definitely "a red-headed stepchild" situation.

Back in the day, GW canned Warhammer because it didn't sell minis. Years later, Hogshead picked it up. But the situation is similar in a lot of ways.

 

[Nerag]

This is not a thread about L5R nor WHF homebrews.

It can be or would you rather bitch about Warhammer?

 

[TristramEvans]

 

[TristramEvans]

First reviews are starting to drop..

Warhammer Age of Sigmar Soulbound Review – Roleplaying in The Mortal Realms

The worlds of Warhammer are rich with narrative and a finely crafted tapestry of lore and history, something that lends itself brilliantly to table top roleplaying games. We have had RPGs set in bo…

spruesandbrews.com

"When the World-That-Was of the Warhammer Fantasy Battle universe fell to the forces of Chaos during The End Times, Sigmar the God King had managed to cling on to a final fragment of it’s essence in a bid to save it. Eventually this shard of the Old World became part of the firmament above The Mortal Realms, a gathering of various different realms enriched with the residual magic of the destruction of The Warhammer World.

Since the arrival of the second edition of the Age of Sigmar game alongside the fantastic Soul Wars starter box, we have seen the lore and background of this universe massively expanded. The Soulbound core book takes this information and grows it further, giving both the GM and the players a rich resource of knowledge from which to draw upon to craft their games.

I would recommend anyone into the universe of the Age of Sigmar to pick up this book, as it gives us lots of detailed information that fleshes out what life is like for the citizens of the Mortal Realms – from what people do for work, to the entertaining mirror-based light shows put on by the people of Hysh or even what people eat and farming in the Mortal Realms! We had seen the world fleshed out in each Battletome that has been released by Games Workshop, but Soulbound really looks at what passes for “normal” life in the Realms, well as normal as life can be in a place inhabited with the various horrors of it!

The book offers a couple of pages investigating each of the Realms in turn, offering ideas to spark your imagination in order to set adventures in each of these locations. Each realm also has a boxout with example adventure hooks to help the GM come up with a thread to start your journey in the Mortal Realms. For example in Ghur we see the Sons of Behemat get a nod with an adventure hook revolving around trying to hire the services of a Mega-Gargant called Argol Brighfist in order to bring the fight against the forces of Chaos.

We also get a chapter covering one particular location in great detail – The Great Parch is the primary setting in the core rulebook, and the Soulbound book presents and absolutely brilliant section of the book going into this region in massive detail. I was blown away at how much information, history and detail that they managed to cram into bringing this part of Aqshy to life, and I really hope we see future supplements each looking at a different realm. This chapter really breathes life into the region and give you fuel in order to craft your adventure across this perilous environment. When if you are only interested in the lore rather than the game, I would recommend picking this up just to learn more about Aqshy and what life is like there."

***

"The Soulbound

The “Soulbound” of the title refer to a group of individuals “Bound” together by the Pantheon of Order in order to serve as guardians of the Mortal Realms. This ritual ties the fate of all those involved together and they are bound to each other member of the Binding until they die. While doming them to a fate of battling the horrors of the realms, the Binding does receive some benefits from this ordeal. Firstly, they can use the power of the Binding to give them abilities far and beyond a normal mortal. Secondly, the Soulbound will never age and wounds will knit back together and heal quicker than they did pre-binding. Finally, their souls are safe from Nagash as they are annihilated upon death, escaping a darker fate as a servant of the God of Death once they fall in service to Sigmar.

I love this concept, both as a way of explaining how the player characters are more powerful than average mortals and as a way of forcing the party to cooperate even if they perhaps have conflicting interests. It leaves a lot of potential open for the GM to explore what happens when a bound party tries to fight against the bindings and go their own way, as I imagine the side effects would be disastrous! It also gives us another nugget about the Gods of Order again cheating Nagash out of souls – for all his megalomanical insanity, Nagash kind of does have a point about Sigmar and his allies cheating the God of Death out of souls that should be headed to him.

Soulbound is all about the party, and does a great job of giving players a load of choice and options in crafting their characters while also keeping things simple and allowing them to hit the ground running. While full rules are included for creating a character from scratch. as people may be used to in systems such as Dungeons and Dragons, Soulbound takes something we have recently seen in Wrath & Glory by framing character construction around Archetypes.

These Archetypes are essentially customisable character builds that define your starting stats, skills and talents within the frame work of a certain race or class. With 23 different Archetypes over 7 different factions the game offers loads of different options in making your perfect character and as previously mentioned you are free to create your own Archetypes or characters from scratch too.

I really like the ease of having these frameworks with suggested skills and talents as a way of building a character that not only performs well in the game, but also fits from a narrative point of view. With the complexities of randomising stats and assigning points taken out of the picture, this leaves you the time to create the important aspect in what is essentially a collective storytelling game, the personalities and background of your character.

Each character has 3 attributes – Body, Mind and Soul. These attributes determine the number of dice in your pool when doing tests. While it may seem strange to players of other roleplaying games, this makes for a much slicker game as essentially all skills boil down to 3 things, how strong you are, how smart you are and what your spirit is. With this there’s no pondering over which skill uses which attribute as they will all fit neatly into one of these 3.

Skills likewise are streamlined with each one having 3 tiers of training (Each one adding an additional dice to the pool) and 3 tiers of focus (Each one giving you the ability to add +1 to a dice roll) – The balancing act is making sure you have a good mixture of each in order to make your character effective – Do you put everything into training and attribute points in order to gain a larger dice pool, or do you work on focus so that even though you have a smaller pool you are getting bonuses to what you roll?

Talents represent the cool abilities or features that your character has such as being able to fire a gun in each hand or having a loyal Gryph Hound accompanying you to adventure! Again, these cost XP in order to learn, so make sure to balance what you are picking up!"

***

"Roleplaying in the Age of Sigmar

The core mechanic in the game revolve around tests based on the difficulty and complexity of what you are trying to do. This results in a Difficulty Number or a “DN” – this is a representation of how easy it is to pull off the task. The DN will indicate what number you are looking for as a success and how many successes you need in order to do it. For example a test might have a Difficulty Number of 3:2 – in that case you would gather together your dice pool based on your attribute and any associated skills then roll all those dice. The 3 here represents what number you are looking for on the dice, and the second number is the number of successes you need to pass the test. For example if you have 4 dice in your pool and roll 1, 1, 3, 5 then you have passed the test with 2 successes! Tests may require higher numbers or more successes to pass the more difficult they get.

This core rule also applies to combat, but in another brilliant move, rather than having a mass of stats on combatants each character and monster has their Melee, Ranged and Defence broken down on a scale of how effective they are from “Poor” through to “Extraordinary” – you then compare the effectiveness in order to determine the DN needed in the fight. For example a lowly Grot might have a defence rating of “Poor” against your Melee rating of “Good” this would mean that your target DN is only 2 due to the fact that you 2 more more steps higher than them on the the ladder, so you are looking for results on 2+ on your dice roll. You then count how many successes you get, subtract their armour and cause the remaining points as damage. This system makes combat really quick and flow well without having to make a lot of calculations each time. As every combat stat is broken down into these abstract ratings it is really easy to determine how effective a fight is going to be and your chances of surviving it!

The Core Book has a wealth of information on Spells, Miracles, Endeavours to explore mid adventure and a chapter full of info on running a game as GM. Sadly the core book does not have an example into adventure, however the GM Screen that is also up for pre order at the moment has a collection of 25 adventures, so will be well worth picking up! I imagine we will see some adventures for download over on the Cubicle 7 website and no doubt stand alone adventures will be in the works to be released as books in the furure.

It’s worth pointing out here that the core book also hints that we will be getting a future book looking at some non-standard character types such as greenskins and Skaven! Looking forward to seeing this whenever it drops!"

***


So, it'll take me a bit to digest all this, but from a first read-thru it looks like:

a) we're going to get a one Realm per book (or one part of a realm, as the core focuses primarily on "The Great Parch")
b) they are preparing for the supplement treadmill style of game support
c) You don't play typical residents of the realms, rather "soul-bound" chosen-one super teams
d) character creation is template-based
e) TN's for the dice pool specify both the number needed on the die for success AND the number of successes (going to have to look into the math on this)
f) Some FASERIP influence in the combat system

 

[Ghost Whistler]

You could do whatever at your own table. That's obvious. That doesn't need to be said.

But if you played the CCG, you actually got to affect the game line (Albeit, yes, by getting to decide whether the plot goes way A or way B - but in most gamelines players don't get any say whatsoever, or you get something halfassed like GW's "players determine the outcome of this storyline! Wait, not like that. Er... Orcs show up, everyone gets punched in the face, and we never speak of this again"). Your play mattered.

Nobody is claiming that this is a problem. The point people are making at you is that the CCG was the driver of the franchise, period. Everything else was secondary to the interests of the CCG players.

But all this is in the thread. You've been here the entire time. I don't feel that I need to summarise it for you, when you've read the same stuff I have.

I felt it was implied that this was a problem or a negative aspect and I wanted to know why.

 

[Ladybird]

So, it'll take me a bit to digest all this, but from a first read-thru it looks like:

a) we're going to get a one Realm per book (or one part of a realm, as the core focuses primarily on "The Great Parch")
b) they are preparing for the supplement treadmill style of game support
c) You don't play typical residents of the realms, rather "soul-bound" chosen-one super teams
d) character creation is template-based
e) TN's for the dice pool specify both the number needed on the die for success AND the number of successes (going to have to look into the math on this)
f) Some FASERIP influence in the combat system

Sounds all right. Having multipel difficulty axes can even work, as long as the designers understand that's what they have done.

 

[CRKrueger]

This is not a thread about L5R nor WHF homebrews.

We don’t have topic police here. Meandering threads are the norm.

 

[Stevethulhu]

I felt it was implied that this was a problem or a negative aspect and I wanted to know why.

Game that develops randomly, according to the whims of people who don't play it and aren't involved past winning cool stuff for themselves, and bragging rights. Don't you see how that's a problem?

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm totally with Stevethulhu on this one. I wasn't into the CCG, and it was super-annoying that the RPG setting constantly changed based on the CCG. It was actually the reason, I stopped following the L5R Rpg completely.

 

[Korgoth]

This new videogame might be of interest to folks AoS-curious, Warhammer Underworlds: Online . I came across it watching a youtuber who does some good Warhammer Videogame reviews/playthroughs, looks kinda fun.

I guess it's based off of a boardgame which itself is based of of Age of Sigmar?

AoS is dead to me as I'm a diehard Old World'r, but I like many other here's have to admit the Artwork and Miniatures are stunning as usual.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

It seems quite simple so here we go.

We will pick a Duardin Aether Khemist.

Characters have 3 basic Stats: Body Mind and Soul. The archetypes give sus: 2, 4, 1 respectively.

Our species is Duardin

Our core skill is Crafting. In the game skills have up to 2 values. One is Training (the number of dice added to your dice pool), the other is Focus (a bonus you can apply to the result of a single die). TBH I'm not 100% sold on this idea. The mechanic is a dice pool: beat a difficulty number to generate a success. Get as many successes as needed to...succeed. It's not unlike 2d20 other than you roll d6 and more than 2 of them, most of the time.

Core skill starts with 1t(raining) and 1f(ocus).

We get access to the following skills and 9 xp to buy points with: Awareness, Balistic Skil, Crafting, Dexterity, Fortitude, Guile, Lore, Medicine, Nature, Reflexes, Survival and Weaponi Skill. I spend thus:

Crafting 2t 1f, Ballistic Skill 1t 1f, Fortitude 2f, Lore 1t, Medicine 2t, Survival 1t.

I think that is correct.

My core talent is Aether Khemist Guild member. I get to choose three more from: Acute Sense, Forbidden Knowledge, Iron Stomach, Medic, Observant and Scholar (medic has an asterisk attached and I don't know that that means yet, probably that it has levels).

I choose Forbidden Knowledge, Scholar and Acute Sense.

Equipment gives me: Aether Khemists Rig, a Khemists kit, a book filled with formulae, 100d worth of crafting materials, and 83 drops of Aqua Ghyranis.

Races confer a bonus of some kind, regardless of archetype: Duardin get "too stubborn to die" +2 wounds.

That's pretty much it other than cosmetic stuff and a name...

 

[Ladybird]

Gosh. That's a really nice, streamlined system. Combined with the simple character sheet, this is really a system where chargen is FAST.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Gosh. That's a really nice, streamlined system. Combined with the simple character sheet, this is really a system where chargen is FAST.

It is surprisingly fast, assuming I did it correctly. Noting down equipment and any attached rules (dmaage etc) may take a bit longer but I didn't look that up.

There is also a freeform option to forego the archetypes as well

 

[Edgewise]

It seems quite simple so here we go.

Cool, interesting!

Characters have 3 basic Stats: Body Mind and Soul.

It almost sounds like this is a kind of class system and these stats express how much weight you are putting on each archetype. But that's mostly a guess on my part.

Our core skill is Crafting. In the game skills have up to 2 values. One is Training (the number of dice added to your dice pool), the other is Focus (a bonus you can apply to the result of a single die). TBH I'm not 100% sold on this idea. The mechanic is a dice pool: beat a difficulty number to generate a success. Get as many successes as needed to...succeed. It's not unlike 2d20 other than you roll d6 and more than 2 of them, most of the time.

Core skill starts with 1t(raining) and 1f(ocus).

We get access to the following skills and 9 xp to buy points with: Awareness, Balistic Skil, Crafting, Dexterity, Fortitude, Guile, Lore, Medicine, Nature, Reflexes, Survival and Weaponi Skill.

This is an odd system. These traits seem to come from different categories of things, which is not necessarily bad. But usually I see that sort of thing in more freeform systems. Some of these emulate the traditional Warhammer attributes but having stuff like Medicine in there is hard to figure at first glance. But it could work.

The training/focus thing sounds like it could be an overcomplication, and it could lead to weird breaks in the system that could be exploited by minimaxers. I sort of understand the dichotomy it expresses; "focus" is your overall level of ability and "training" is your consistency through experience. But it sounds like something the designer thought would be snazzy to model and might not add much.

I choose Forbidden Knowledge...

Do you get any alchemical "spells" from this, or other kinds of flashy science-fantasy abilities? Or is it more like your Cthulhu Mythos skill?

Gosh. That's a really nice, streamlined system.

That was my impression as well, which is a huge positive for me.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

You can only have 3 in training and focus. You can have any combination thereof.

Aether Khemist Guild membership (my spellchecker is flipping out) allows you to undertake an 'endeavour' to craft devices of which there seems to be a fair list. It could have eaisly been a huge fudge as crafting is in many games. These are your spells

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Next we'll do a Stormcast Eternal.

Hint: the scale and process seems to be exactly the same. Unlike the FFG 40k games where the comparable Space Marine pc's just didn't fit in with the mechanics and pushed the system. There's also no visible tier system. A Stormcast can sit alongside the character above and don't appear to have a thousand times as much xp or stat scores.

 

[Ladybird]

The training/focus thing sounds like it could be an overcomplication, and it could lead to weird breaks in the system that could be exploited by minimaxers. I sort of understand the dichotomy it expresses; "focus" is your overall level of ability and "training" is your consistency through experience. But it sounds like something the designer thought would be snazzy to model and might not add much.

I did some very quick and dirty analyses on the expected successes from rolling 1f2t, 2f1t, and 3f. Note that these aren't considering attributes at all, and all added the training to one die even if it wasn't required. Assumed target number of 4.

Successes	1f 2t	2f 1t	3f
0​	17%​	11%​	13%​
1​	83%​	47%​	38%​
2​	0%​	42%​	38%​
3​	0%​	0%​	13%​

2f1t looks like it's the best for actually getting something on the board, but honestly I think the numbers are close enough together it's not a huge deal either way. I'm actually kinda impressed.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Stormcast Eternal; a Knight Azyros (first of 4 archetypes). Sort of the Green Lanterns of the Stormcast, because they have lanterns.

Body 3 Mind 2 Soul 4
Species: Stormcast Eternal, as separate from humans. You don't 'level up' a human

Core Skill: Devotion (Praise the Empe...) starts at 1t 1f as before.
Skills (7xp to spend) Awareness 1t, Determination 1f, 1t, Devotion 1t 2f, Medicine 1f, Weapon Skill 2t

Core Talent: Blessed (Sigmar)
Talents (choose 3): Diplomat, Iron Will, Miracles of Sigmar

Equipment: Sigmarite Plate, Starblade, Dagger, Celestial Wings, Celestial Beacon, 85 drops of Aqua Ghyranis

Species Bonus: Reforged (I roll 1d6 to generate how many times I've been 'reforged' a process that can take days hours years). There appears to be no mechanical bonus or effect.

There is also a resource called Mettle which all characters have = Soul/2. It's a resource to fuel certain talents as well as Miracles. Green Lantern here has 2.
My Initiative is = Mind + training in Awareness and Reflexes. 3.

That's it.

Beyond that you choose some goals. The party chooses some goals. It also has a Soulfire and a Doom score. The former is the strength of the god-forged bond between the pc's. IIRC it's = number of characters in the party. Members can use it to power up and do cool stuff as per normal. Doom is a more nebulous representation of the growing dread in the world as the realms are overrun by chaos. It starts at 1.

It's a GM resource.

Overall there are shades of Numenera in the layout of the book. It looks lovely but the pdf was clearly rushed, it has a lot of typos and is appalling optimised. It takes forever to load. These can be fixed - and, to be brutally frank, should have been given they are asking £25! That's excessive regardless of the content.

Rules seem to be a light mix of popular ideas. Nothing wrong with that. Doom puts me in mind of 2d20 though I haven't read the rules, possibly because 2d20 is loaded with narrative pools, one of which, in Conan, is also called Doom. Soulfire and being Soulbound feel more unique, or in-genre/theme.

This looks like a weird mix of Mortal Kombat meets High Fantasy.

 

[Ladybird]

In your opinion, with some tweaks (Create Old World careers instead of the Sigmar ones, maybe flesh out the skills a touch more), could this system be used for play in the old world?

I ask because that setting is already very well covered by games from the WFRP lineage. Something that could bring a new take on it intrigues me.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

View attachment 18309
In your opinion, with some tweaks (Create Old World careers instead of the Sigmar ones, maybe flesh out the skills a touch more), could this system be used for play in the old world?

I ask because that setting is already very well covered by games from the WFRP lineage. Something that could bring a new take on it intrigues me.

Nominally, and bearing in mind i've yet to play this and could have misunderstood or even misrepresnted the systems I've demonstrated, yes. But that's true of any system. There are a few elements that won't translate: Soulfire, possibly Doom.

I think the differences are more about the style. In AoS you are heroes bound by the gods to fight chaos. In the Old World you're joe schmuck living in the muck and the mire rising to perilous adventure. I see no reason this couldn't translate, and maybe that's intentional, Warhammer 4e has a creaky and pretty rank system. It's not terrible but the randomness and the whiff factor are part of the package. Always were. It would be like using DnD to play Game of Thrones.

Fear not, I'm sure someone somewhere will do a conversion at some point

 

[The Butcher]

Been playing quite a bit of Warhammer: Vermintide II on the PC (fantastic, casual, mission-based multiplayer looter-shooter) and by Sigmar it's getting me itching for a little WFRP action.

I love D&D for what it is, from OD&D to D&D5, and Mythras is probably the best engine for fine-tuning to a given setting (especially when cults and mutilation are involved). But WFRP strikes that rare balance between fantasy, history and gonzo, in both setting and system. As others have said before, it's like D&D and CoC had a baby and Terry Gilliam raised it. In 17th Century Germany.

I've been a fan of the setting for a while but it took me years to finally run a game on my own circa 2013 or 2014. I ran for two groups, using WFRP2, and much fun was had. (In one particularly memorable night, my acting as a jilted husband confronting his wife in bed with the Elf Rogue PC elicited yells of encouragement from the neighbors)

Last night I started comparing WFRP2, Zweihänder and WFRP4; starting with the Career system. I am a big fan of the whole Career switcheroo where play circumstances mean your Rat Catcher might end up as an Assassin or Demagogue or Witch Hunter.I think it fits the picaresque nature of the setting.

WFRP2 seems optimally plotted for three or four Careers throughout a PC's tabletop life; Zweihänder explicitly plots for three; WFRP4 encourages you to stick with your initial career with four "levels" for each, and though there are rules for switching, I feel subtly discouraged by this set-up.

One thing I really dig about Zweihänder is how specific colleges of magic and priesthoods have thgeir own careers; a generic Priest is unlikely to refelct the badassery of Ulric's White Wolves or Myrmidia's Iron Abbots.

My choice of system is increasingly looking like a showdown between WFRP2's familiar expediency and Zweihänder's fiddly comprehensiveness.

Setting-wise, though, no doubts: going with WFRP1 for the fluff.

 

[A Fiery Flying Roll]

Zweihänder is perfectly fine as a game, but it's moved in the opposite crunch direction to what I like in a game these days. And the writing just doesn't have the magic of the original; it feels like it tries too hard at times.

WFRP 4e has bits I really like. I'm the opposite of you; I really like the fact you can stay in the same career the whole of your life rather than being pushed into switching to progress. And the writing feels like WFRP. But it just feels unfinished somehow; like they didn't finish playtesting it properly. Yes, I can fix stuff like beginning characters not being able to afford a hand weapon. But I shouldn't have to. It's also fiddly.

So for me it's WFRP 2e for mechanics and cherrypick both 1e and 2e for setting. 2e has a lot of great setting books like the Kislev book and the Border Princes but the storm of chaos makes a better wargame than a RPG.

 

[Skywalker]

My preference remains WFRP2e with a good injection of the setting vibe from 1e.

I like Zweihander quite a bit as it does fix 2e's few issues and is easily usable for games outside of the Old World. However, the complexity goes too far which makes 2e a better choice overall.

4e looked good on paper at first. But I found that its fixes to 2e were either off-track (such a de-emphasising the career system) or actually created a few issues in the effort. Its just too fiddly IMO, though its complexity is less than Zweihander at least.

 

[Raleel]

https://discord.gg/nm4WqRc there has been a fan effort to do a Mythras version of Warhammer, and we set up a special channel for it. Dan True on the TDM boards has been looking at porting the magic system. careers have been discussed in the channel at length

 

[CRKrueger]

If I was running WFRP again...

Storm of Chaos/Spiky Bitz Warhammer sucks for a tabletop RPG. It made a great MMO and tabletop wargame though.

WFRP1/Enemy Within/CoC Warhammer is where it's at settingwise. I think 1e and 4e are better suited than 2e or Zweihander.

1e's careers aren't balanced at all, and the progressions are pretty logical, especially with GM common sense. 4e keeps that lack of trying for career balance and allows you to stay in career, so no forced exits.

2e keeps the idiosyncrasies of Career Progression from WFRP1 but attempts to balance the careers, and the combination is...odd. Zweihander is the most open and flexible with a Build-Your-Own system and a bajillion examples for things. It also has unique religious and cult careers which is always nice. However, Zweihander does add the crunch, which doesn’t bother me but it also isn’t usable as is, which does. It’s in Uncanny Valley territory. Not Warhammer enough to be Warhammer without tweaking, and too much Warhammer for any non-Warhammer setting without a lot more tweaking. Even Dan Fox has said just use WFRP for Warhammer.

I’d use a lot of the setting material from WFRP2, especially all the gorgeous city maps, but leave the system WFRP1 or go with WFRP4.

Assuming of course I didn’t undertake my Mythras conversion.

 

[Baeraad]

I am quite happy to finally be running a WFRP2 campaign right now, since it's something that I've been wanting to do for a very long time. I have very limited experience with all the other editions, but I always thought there was something deeply compelling about the game and setting. It's not exactly gritty and it's not exactly glamourous, it's sort of.... glamourously gritty. You get all the flashiness and colour of high fantasy and all the vividness and visceral immediacy of low fantasy. Everything is covered in dirt and covered in gold. Every detail is made as eye-catching as possible.

It's also the only setting I know that takes Tolkienian races and makes them feel interesting to me - I think, again, because it's all exaggerated to the point where everything feels distinct. The Dwarfs are more grumpy and stubborn. The Halflings are more gluttonous and hapless. The Orcs aren't just vaguely tailored on Tolkien's notion of The Ill-Bred Servant Classes but are explicitly cockney-speaking football hooligans. Everything is drawn in sharper lines, everything is more flavourful and distinctive. I love it.

 

[OHT]

I prefer 4e careers. I prefer Zweihander's magic system, and I prefer 2e breadth of content and v1's general vibe (I think I must be the only person alive who likes the magic system of the original). So it's a bit vexing.

 

[The Butcher]

I prefer 4e careers. I prefer Zweihander's magic system, and I prefer 2e breadth of content and v1's general vibe (I think I must be the only person alive who likes the magic system of the original). So it's a bit vexing.

Right?

I have yet to compare magic systems but so far I’m definitely into WFRP1 feel/vibe and adventures, WFRP2 setting material, Zweihänder careers.

 

[Winterblight]

Ive played Warhammer 1st and 2nd edition and now GMing Zweihander. I can't really make much in the way of comparison as it was a long time ago that I played Warhammer. Our current Zweihander game has been running for about a year and its only now that I need to delve deeply into the magic system as the player characters look like they are about to face off against a very powerful Wizard. It will be their first real encounter going up against spells and magic artefacts, though its one of their own making. I've dumped the corruption mechanism, I found that too hard to follow. I know I've said it before, but the text is so inflated and overwritten, it gets in the way of learning the rules.

The characters have just entered their second tier.

 

[Baulderstone]

WFRP 4e has bits I really like. I'm the opposite of you; I really like the fact you can stay in the same career the whole of your life rather than being pushed into switching to progress. And the writing feels like WFRP. But it just feels unfinished somehow; like they didn't finish playtesting it properly. Yes, I can fix stuff like beginning characters not being able to afford a hand weapon. But I shouldn't have to. It's also fiddly.

I've been running 4E on and off for the last year, and I do like the career system in it better. I ran a lot of WFRP back in the 1E days, and the career system became more of an issue the longer a campaign went on. Having a random career within a general class and needing to work your way through to the career was pretty cool, but unless you were a spellcaster, none of the career paths were long enough, so you'd fly through the career you wanted in a few sessions and then spend the rest of the campaign bouncing through careers that had nothing to do with what was happening in the game. With 4E, you can still change careers, but you aren't constantly forced out of them too.

As for fiddliness, yes, it is fiddly. I've been running it the same way I ran AD&D back in the day: I just ignore a lot of things, using the core mechanics with a "rulings not rules" mindset, and it has worked well. If I were to more formally change the game, I'd provide options to make character generation less fiddly.

Having Graeme Davis on board is one of the best things about 4E. WFRP (as opposed to the larger Warhammer franchise) is tied very much to the original writers in my mind.

 

[Séadna]

Ive played Warhammer 1st and 2nd edition and now GMing Zweihander

How have you found the rules for Zweihander overall?

 

[CRKrueger]

I prefer 4e careers. I prefer Zweihander's magic system, and I prefer 2e breadth of content and v1's general vibe (I think I must be the only person alive who likes the magic system of the original). So it's a bit vexing.

Not just you brother. I wasn’t a big fan of the Colours of Magick.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Not just you brother. I wasn’t a big fan of the Colours of Magick.

Count me in for OG Warhammer magic. I like the battle wizard/illusionist/necromancer/demonologist thing.

Though a few more utility spells would be nice, you can love without them. And Produce Small Animal is an amazing spell!

 

[TristramEvans]

I've looked at every system since (2e, 3e, 4e, and Zweihander), and I've yet to see a compelling reason to switch from using 1E rules.

 

[The Butcher]

Not just you brother. I wasn’t a big fan of the Colours of Magick.

Gotta look into WFRP1 again one of these days.

I actually like the Winds of Magic fluff, and sort of tolerate the color-coded colleges, but it does make for some embarrassing situations e.g. if you want to play an elf wizard — are you supposed to focus on one of the Winds? Submit to College authority? I never quite get the hang of it.

 

[Gringnr]

I don't have a position on this, but I thought some of you might be interested in a fan-made set of rules for using Zweihänder rules to play actual WFRP. That is to say, this guy has re-affixed the serial numbers. On a purely unofficial, fan-made basis. Impressive for a fan project.

ZWEIHÄNDER Rules

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Rule Expansion Site

www.kalevalahammer.com

Speaking of fan projects, there are a metric f***ton of fan made WFRP modules out there? Anyone have any recs? I have a BUNCH of these and I'd like to know which ones y'all would recommend.

Also, is anyone familiar with the wfrp.de collection of fan-made stuff? It's apparently curated and gated.