The Martial Arts Thread

[BedrockBrendan]

not actually me saying that. it's AsenRG

Sorry Raleel. Got my HtmL tags all mucked up somehow

 

[E-Rocker]

So, what are some of the non-martial benefits y'all have gained from martial arts? I mean, of course there's physical fitness, and oftentimes there's friendship, but what else?

Many years of doing Kali, which involves quite a bit of dual-wielding of weapons, has made me more-or-less ambidextrous. Handwriting notwithstanding, pretty much anything I can do right-handed, I can now do left-handed as well, even ten-key.

 

[Stevethulhu]

So, what are some of the non-martial benefits y'all have gained from martial arts? I mean, of course there's physical fitness, and oftentimes there's friendship, but what else?

Many years of doing Kali, which involves quite a bit of dual-wielding of weapons, has made me more-or-less ambidextrous. Handwriting notwithstanding, pretty much anything I can do right-handed, I can now do left-handed as well, even ten-key.

Better balance, fitness, anger and anxiety management. Friendships, met my partner. Confidence and the all important keepi g active after heart surgery are all things I've gained from martial arts.

 

[Raleel]

Sorry Raleel. Got my HtmL tags all mucked up somehow

not a problem. i took no offense.

 

[Raleel]

So, what are some of the non-martial benefits y'all have gained from martial arts? I mean, of course there's physical fitness, and oftentimes there's friendship, but what else?

Many years of doing Kali, which involves quite a bit of dual-wielding of weapons, has made me more-or-less ambidextrous. Handwriting notwithstanding, pretty much anything I can do right-handed, I can now do left-handed as well, even ten-key.

tai chi was very good for my balance. I really noticed it when hiking. I took my steps differently, and it made it in some ways much easier. various grappling arts have made my awareness of how the body works to be quite good. I've taught some of this to my child (like how to escape a wrist grab)

i actually have a lot of issues with the martial arts community. I've never fit in very well for whatever reason. I like the arts, but the last several attempts to continue have been frustratingly difficult to deal with the people, to the point where it makes it not fun to go to. BJJ ended up pairing me with a guy who was semi pro and fucked up my shoulder for a year, and then the BJJ instructor was arrested for pedophilia. Tai chi was tamer but I don't go to tai chi to listen to the sifu complain about kids getting on his lawn (seriously) and his political views and to go to every. fucking. tai chi event. I'm not much of a joiner, and it's a piece of my life, not my life.

 

[Voros]

We used to call this caging. Obviously it is less effective with smaller gloves or no gloves. But I also don't think you can take a single moment in a fight and determine how innefective something is (definitely seen people use it successfully in MMA). But caging was always kind of a last ditch effort to stave off combos and it is more meant to absorb the impact, rather than completely block. Also there is more nuance to it than just putting your forearms around your head. You are supposed to be keeping your eyes open and watching the punches. So if a hook is coming you can shift and block the side of your head with a slight movement for example (and that block is pretty effective against ungloved hands---use it against my wife all the time ). Ortiz appears to lose focus on LIdell and look away a bit in that combination (but I could be wrong). That is always bad, whether you are caging or not. Also if you are caging against a knock out artist like Lidell, and they hit hard, you are still going to feel those punches and maybe even get knocked out. I haven't seen that fight in ages, can we link a video up. I am having trouble seeing if the punches are getting through cleanly or not. I do agree, it is not going to be as effective against small or no gloves as it is against 10 or 8 ounce gloves. I think in MMA you need to learn to adjust if I remember and it is much higher risk because shots can slip through more easily (but it usually seems to come up when guys are already being out punched). It doesn't look like Ortiz would have been capable of parrying or slipping those punches at that point.

In boxing though, you have a lot of tools: parrying, bobbing and weaving, slipping, head movement, etc. If you ever try to punch an experienced boxer in the head, you see very quickly how effective those techniques are at defending against punches. One thing I can say is, when someone is better than you, or you are tired, even if you are great using those defenses cleanly in drills, everything can kind of go out the window and you just do what you can to not get dropped (things just start getting a lot more sloppy under pressure). To me this moment we are looking at seems like a very high pressure moment.

As BedrockBrendan says in boxing straight up turtling for long periods is pretty rare as a technique by the more skilled boxers unless they are in deep trouble/stunned (in which case the better option is to tie up your opponent). A less skilled but tough-as-nails fighter like Micky Ward often used it.



Cus D'Amato was famously an advocate of the so-called Peek-a-Boo style made famous by a young Tyson although the great Jose Torres also used it.

Of course in boxing keeping your hands up and your elbows in tight to protect your body is the classic orthodox stance. Unfortunately many seem to think they're Ali or Roy Jones Jr. and box with their hands way too low these days.

 

[AsenRG]

We used to call this caging. Obviously it is less effective with smaller gloves or no gloves.

But I also don't think you can take a single moment in a fight and determine how innefective something is (definitely seen people use it successfully in MMA).

Right, but I'm not using this gif as proof! (And it's a .gif that wasn't even made by me, I'm too lazy for that). What I mean is, "this kind of thing is a good example of why I don't like this kind of moves". Of course, I kinda had to take an example where it fails in order to show my point, didn't I?

But caging was always kind of a last ditch effort to stave off combos and it is more meant to absorb the impact, rather than completely block.

That's something we agree on. I just object to the current trend where it's all "blocking" (as in the taking the impact on your arm/s, I'm not talking about age-uke and gedan-barai here) and no "parrying".
To the point that I recently stumbled (when google/duckduckgo searching for an old article I'd lost the link to) over a thread on a boxing forum which listed the "lost arts" in boxing. And parrying was listed as #2, I believe.

Also there is more nuance to it than just putting your forearms around your head. You are supposed to be keeping your eyes open and watching the punches. So if a hook is coming you can shift and block the side of your head with a slight movement for example (and that block is pretty effective against ungloved hands---use it against my wife all the time ).

I know, right? Nuance in everything, one might say...
Also, movement works. A small sideways/downard movement turns what is otherwise a block (which I don't like, given the lack of weight classes) into a parry - which doesn't much care how powerful the incoming strike is.
(And you can do this with pretty much any block. Like, I was recently explaining to a newbie not to keep his hand there, or I'd pass around it - but that to keep it a bit lower and lift it in the "blocking" position elbow-next-to-side-of-head actually works as a deflection. OK, there's a couple nuances, but that's the gist of it.
I'm not sure whether he understood it, because I got sick afterwards).

Ortiz appears to lose focus on LIdell and look away a bit in that combination (but I could be wrong). That is always bad, whether you are caging or not. Also if you are caging against a knock out artist like Lidell, and they hit hard, you are still going to feel those punches and maybe even get knocked out. I haven't seen that fight in ages, can we link a video up. I am having trouble seeing if the punches are getting through cleanly or not. I do agree, it is not going to be as effective against small or no gloves as it is against 10 or 8 ounce gloves.

There are some videos, but I'm not sure how legal they are. I'd rather not link to illegal material from the Pub.

That said, you can easily google them, which is how I found them. Some are on Youtube!

I think in MMA you need to learn to adjust if I remember and it is much higher risk because shots can slip through more easily (but it usually seems to come up when guys are already being out punched). It doesn't look like Ortiz would have been capable of parrying or slipping those punches at that point.

Maybe not. As I said before, it's an example for how it might fail, not proof.
If I wanted proof, I'd have pointed to Fedor Emelianenko's and Anderson Silva's instructional books on MMA striking - which have been on my bookshelf for years, mind you. Fedor says he only block kicks, which are bigger, and prefers to rely on other stuff (primarily head movement, but I'd note that his famous trapping also works as a defence-and-attack-combined*) to keep his head from punches.
Anderson Silva says almost the same, and insists that due to the smaller gloves you can eat a fist in the side of the head if you block even with the elbow block. (I could give you page references if you want it). So he considers blocks a means of last resort.
I'd figure that those two guys should know a bit on defence against punches with smaller gloves, right?
That's the kind of "proof" I'd have suggested. But it doesn't look as nice in a post as the .gif that I linked to!

*But then that's the essence of trapping, IMO. It's an attacking move that keeps you safe from retailiation and makes putting your shots in easier. And yes, 90+% of people that practice it, suck at it, because they're trying to apply an exercise instead of the actual combat applications.

In boxing though, you have a lot of tools: parrying, bobbing and weaving, slipping, head movement, etc. If you ever try to punch an experienced boxer in the head, you see very quickly how effective those techniques are at defending against punches.

You don't need to tell me. Been there, tried that. It's always fun!

Spoiler: Boring Personal Experience

Funny enough...some of the first parries I applied in kung-fu sparring were boxing ones. Because some of the older students had studied kick-boxing to a pretty high level* and were more than willing to show them in addition to the parries we were studying. The teacher himself approved of the exchange, but insisted that we shouldn't revert to boxing-only parries.
I recently got a refresher course while on a JKD seminar, from a guy with serious LEO experience.

*The one who explained them best had been the sparring partner of the national champion. Which means "he could withstand sparrring with the national champ when the champ is preparing for competition". I've been told that the average kick-boxer...can't last for long.

One thing I can say is, when someone is better than you, or you are tired, even if you are great using those defenses cleanly in drills, everything can kind of go out the window and you just do what you can to not get dropped (things just start getting a lot more sloppy under pressure). To me this moment we are looking at seems like a very high pressure moment.

Yeah, sloppiness under pressure is a thing. But I still think you're better off trying to smother the strikes at the beginning, not the end. (Which is basically "tying up", except done a bith differently due to knee strikes, elbows and knees, and not wanting to end on the floor).

 

[AsenRG]

So, what are some of the non-martial benefits y'all have gained from martial arts? I mean, of course there's physical fitness, and oftentimes there's friendship, but what else?

Many years of doing Kali, which involves quite a bit of dual-wielding of weapons, has made me more-or-less ambidextrous. Handwriting notwithstanding, pretty much anything I can do right-handed, I can now do left-handed as well, even ten-key.

Working on my ambidexterity as well, but nowhere near as close to it as you.
It has improved my balance, sense of rhythm, predictive abilities, taught me how bodies move and how conflicts in general develop, and allows me to spend fun times as the "monster" on kid parties, being pelted with balls and pillows. It's easier to grab a kid and turn him or her in the air if you know in advance how not to hurt the little one and are sure you're not going to drop him or her, no matter the wriggling.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Right, but I'm not using this gif as proof! (And it's a .gif that wasn't even made by me, I'm too lazy for that). What I mean is, "this kind of thing is a good example of why I don't like this kind of moves". Of course, I kinda had to take an example where it fails in order to show my point, didn't I?


That's something we agree on. I just object to the current trend where it's all "blocking" (as in the taking the impact on your arm/s, I'm not talking about age-uke and gedan-barai here) and no "parrying".
To the point that I recently stumbled (when google/duckduckgo searching for an old article I'd lost the link to) over a thread on a boxing forum which listed the "lost arts" in boxing. And parrying was listed as #2, I believe.

I don't think we disagree all that much. I think this is a last resort, but one that is important. even in MMA, people cover and turtle whenever people are raining punches on them (and if they don't the ref will stop the fight because if they are not covering at that point, they are no longer 'defending themselves at all times). And in boxing caging definitely makes sense because you are fighting with larger gloves and it is part of the sport. Definitely I don't advocate porting things from one sport to another if they don't work, or at least not adjusting them if they do. But covering still seems to be a thing in MMA to my eyes. It isn't like people walk in thinking "I am going to cage". It is what you do when punches are hitting you and you need to minimize their impact. It is just about minimizing. In boxing though if you watch someone who is skilled, they shift from caging to parrying, slipping, etc. It is a finesses thing. If someone throws a straight right at your nose in boxing, trust my bringing your forearms together is not a bad way to stop it. It is about what you can easily do in that moment and what feels right. How close you are, what you are trying to do next, how fast you are able to react to their punches, these will all factor in to you choosing covering or some other defense.

I am a little unclear what you mean by a blocking trend. When you say block do you mean covering and turtling (because when I think of block I think of a karate style forearm block). In boxing covering is just one technique and you are supposed to keep your guard up to minimize punches, but if anything these days I see a lot of people moving away from high guard and covering because so many are trying to emulate Mayweather. Personally I think people should do whatever works for them. My experience has been if I don't keep my guard up and don't resort to caging when punches rain on me (and they will surely rain on you eventually) then I get hit in the head way too much.

Maybe not. As I said before, it's an example for how it might fail, not proof.
If I wanted proof, I'd have pointed to Fedor Emelianenko's and Anderson Silva's instructional books on MMA striking - which have been on my bookshelf for years, mind you. Fedor says he only block kicks, which are bigger, and prefers to rely on other stuff (primarily head movement, but I'd note that his famous trapping also works as a defence-and-attack-combined*) to keep his head from punches.
Anderson Silva says almost the same, and insists that due to the smaller gloves you can eat a fist in the side of the head if you block even with the elbow block. (I could give you page references if you want it). So he considers blocks a means of last resort.
I'd figure that those two guys should know a bit on defence against punches with smaller gloves, right?
That's the kind of "proof" I'd have suggested. But it doesn't look as nice in a post as the .gif that I linked to!.

My main interest is sparring. I am not in martial arts for self defense. So I just do what works in the sport I am currently practicing. Right now, it is boxing. And all I can say is caging works but it is not something you put ahead of other defensive techniques. Head movement is one of the most fundamental obviously (and a defense I am currently working to improve). Same with parrying. The problem with parrying is it is actually really hard. That is a skill that takes time to develop and use in a match. And if someone is more skilled than you, even if you can parry, you might find their punches difficult to parry. Plus it can't always be relied upon. So it is part of the arsenal just like caging and head movement are. You can't ignore any of them in boxing. If you say well " I am just never going to cage" I think you are probably going to run into major issues in that sport. Just watching MMA, it seems the same. They stop fights the moment someone takes a bunch of hits and either doesn't respond or doesn't cover up. Once a person is taking the kind of hits Tito was, the only thing they have left to do is cage. They are already taking those combos.

Yeah, sloppiness under pressure is a thing. But I still think you're better off trying to smother the strikes at the beginning, not the end. (Which is basically "tying up", except done a bith differently due to knee strikes, elbows and knees, and not wanting to end on the floor).

Sure, but you don't decide how a fight plays out. You can go in with that plan but what happens when they are too good at defending and you can't smother them? And then they are great at combos and you can't slip or parry their punches? Caging is about the difference between taking clean punches that land and muffling those punches. Even if you lose and get knocked out, it is better to get knocked out while caging than not.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

So, what are some of the non-martial benefits y'all have gained from martial arts? I mean, of course there's physical fitness, and oftentimes there's friendship, but what else?

Many years of doing Kali, which involves quite a bit of dual-wielding of weapons, has made me more-or-less ambidextrous. Handwriting notwithstanding, pretty much anything I can do right-handed, I can now do left-handed as well, even ten-key.

The biggest thing it gave me was perseverance. A sense of community as well. Also two of my best friends I met in martial arts (and they are both very close to this day). I think it also helped me toughen up a bit and helped me to learn to test my limits with things. Also gave me an appreciation for fitness and health (quit smoking because of martial arts). There are downsides too like long term injuries.

Haven't encountered some of the issues Raleel spoke of. But I think you always have to watch out for people like that in any community. We had one of those guys at a church I used to attend as a kid: pretended to be the youth group director and tried to get us to go see the Rockettes with him in Texas (turned out we didn't have a youth group). So I think that is something you are going to find any place where people have community and are more easily trusting.

Personally I like the social atmosphere of the martial arts places I've attended. They are all a bit different. In Taekwondo our master was korean and it was a lot like a church community (trips, activities, in addition to classes and competition). I go to eat at his house with his family a lot and his wife used to cook for us sometimes in the morning. It was very nice. Muay Thai and boxing gyms are a little more rowdy but lots of fun (I like the sense of humor you encounter). It does take time to earn peoples respect though. At a lot of these places, they don't welcome you fully till you've been there a while (because so many people quit). The place I am at now is great. They have a real sense of community. I live in a bit of a rough area and they do a good job giving back.

 

[Voros]

I know nothing about the UFC but this video of Brian Ortega discussing fight scenes from movies is pretty cool and funny. Good selection of famous fights too, from John Wick, Ong Bak to They Live and Game of Death.

 

[AsenRG]

I don't think we disagree all that much.

No, we're not. At this point the difference seems to be small enough that we might as well chuck it to, you know, different tactics (for which different defences are more or less advisable).

I think this is a last resort, but one that is important. even in MMA, people cover and turtle whenever people are raining punches on them (and if they don't the ref will stop the fight because if they are not covering at that point, they are no longer 'defending themselves at all times).

Agreed!
I just don't like taking a strike, purely passively, on the back of my gloves (especially since I don't have gloves). So I prefer parrying to blocking with my guard.
But if you're late to parry, and against most opponents, taking the strike is much preferable (the exception being the guys who use such contact to start disrupting your balance and impeding your lines of attack).

And in boxing caging definitely makes sense because you are fighting with larger gloves and it is part of the sport.

My brief stint in boxing totally confirms that!
It's just that I wasn't training with a mind that I'd have those same gloves on when I need to do this whole punching and dodging stuff...

Definitely I don't advocate porting things from one sport to another if they don't work, or at least not adjusting them if they do. But covering still seems to be a thing in MMA to my eyes. It isn't like people walk in thinking "I am going to cage". It is what you do when punches are hitting you and you need to minimize their impact.

Yeah - the thing I'm ranting against is the tendency to teach this kind of defences* first - and sometimes, leaving it there. Even within boxing, I believe it would give fighters a longer "ring life" if they were taught more about deflecting the enemy's force instead of taking it head-on (pun not intended).

*Which, to me, include anything where it's "just taking it on your guard/gloves (without other support structure than your hands and maybe head)" that you rely on.

It is just about minimizing. In boxing though if you watch someone who is skilled, they shift from caging to parrying, slipping, etc. It is a finesses thing. If someone throws a straight right at your nose in boxing, trust my bringing your forearms together is not a bad way to stop it. It is about what you can easily do in that moment and what feels right. How close you are, what you are trying to do next, how fast you are able to react to their punches, these will all factor in to you choosing covering or some other defense.

Indeed.

I am a little unclear what you mean by a blocking trend. When you say block do you mean covering and turtling (because when I think of block I think of a karate style forearm block).

Covering and turtling, good catch!
I usually think of "blocks" as being forearm/palm moves as well, but since I gave the example with a ring fight, I was sticking to what is, IME, the "official" terminology for ring fights.

In boxing covering is just one technique and you are supposed to keep your guard up to minimize punches, but if anything these days I see a lot of people moving away from high guard and covering because so many are trying to emulate Mayweather.

Interesting. I haven't noticed the trend, but then I only watch combat sports sporadically (and usually specific fights, or fights with specific fighterst that I like). And yes, Mayweather is a prime example of what I mean...so I guess, count me in for the newest trend, except I didn't know there was one?

Personally I think people should do whatever works for them.

Absolutely! But maybe, just maybe, there might be something else that works even better, that they haven't considered, yet?

My experience has been if I don't keep my guard up and don't resort to caging when punches rain on me (and they will surely rain on you eventually) then I get hit in the head way too much.

Again - in such situations, you do whatever you can to minimize the damage. It's teaching them to fighters as the first reaction that I object to...

My main interest is sparring. I am not in martial arts for self defense. So I just do what works in the sport I am currently practicing.

And that's a noble approach! I just see sparrings as a fun exercice, but one that is nonetheless a means to an end.

Right now, it is boxing. And all I can say is caging works but it is not something you put ahead of other defensive techniques.

If only more people shared this approach!
OK, I guess I'm railing against the specific gym where I trained more than against boxing. But then, different boxing trainers could have such different priorities, in the East they'd count them as different styles, IME!

Head movement is one of the most fundamental obviously (and a defense I am currently working to improve). Same with parrying. The problem with parrying is it is actually really hard. That is a skill that takes time to develop and use in a match.

I'd disagree. I mean, OK, it takes a bit of time, but not all that long. And it's time well-invested, just like time spent practicing the one-two ain't wasted. IME and YMMV and all that jazz.

And if someone is more skilled than you, even if you can parry, you might find their punches difficult to parry. Plus it can't always be relied upon. So it is part of the arsenal just like caging and head movement are. You can't ignore any of them in boxing. If you say well " I am just never going to cage" I think you are probably going to run into major issues in that sport. Just watching MMA, it seems the same. They stop fights the moment someone takes a bunch of hits and either doesn't respond or doesn't cover up. Once a person is taking the kind of hits Tito was, the only thing they have left to do is cage. They are already taking those combos.

Yeah, I'm just...not entirely persuaded that caging makes me better defended than continuing to strike, or trying to "tie up" the enemy's hands.
I mean, if my opponent can deal with these, my caging is just going to give such a superior fighter more* of a passive punchbag, and a defence that's easier to pick apart. Usually.
I readily admit that I take such decisions by "feel", though.
And of course, in "my arena" running away is another final** option that boxers ain't got. So keep that in mind as well!

*Because if you try to smother/tie-up, usually the guy at least needs a beat or two to move your (actively moving towards him) hands aside. If he pulls/pushes and strikes unimpeded against your static shell/guard, it all happens in the same beat, so you get even less of a rest.
**Actually it's the preferred option. But sometimes you have to pass through the opposition - and it's quite possible to take some shots in so doing!

Sure, but you don't decide how a fight plays out. You can go in with that plan but what happens when they are too good at defending and you can't smother them? And then they are great at combos and you can't slip or parry their punches?

And what if they're used to displacing (or whatever you call it) the defending arms while taking a shot? A static arm is easier to displace, IME.
Like this guy explains from about 0:33 and onwards.

Admittedly, it's simply illegal to do that in boxing (and most kick-boxing rulesets, AFAIK). But then in MMA it's not...the players there just aren't used to doing it because they learn, overwhelmingly, from boxing/kickboxing trainers, which can't teach them something that's against the rules of their sport. (Exceptions exist, yes).

Caging is about the difference between taking clean punches that land and muffling those punches. Even if you lose and get knocked out, it is better to get knocked out while caging than not.

Usually I'd agree. But see the above exception.
Tony Ferguson and Conditt were recently recommended to me as two guys who supposedly like doing that kind of stuff (usually ending in elbows). I need to watch more of their fights and see how true that is...

And people wonder why I ain't got the time to watch many movies, these days

The biggest thing it gave me was perseverance. A sense of community as well. Also two of my best friends I met in martial arts (and they are both very close to this day). I think it also helped me toughen up a bit and helped me to learn to test my limits with things. Also gave me an appreciation for fitness and health (quit smoking because of martial arts). There are downsides too like long term injuries.

Yeah, the social aspect is highly underestimated...
And then you realize that the people you socialize with the most all wear jeans and black t-shirts, and consider a broken nose to be a minor injury only worth noting if it happened in a funny way!

Haven't encountered some of the issues Raleel spoke of. But I think you always have to watch out for people like that in any community. We had one of those guys at a church I used to attend as a kid: pretended to be the youth group director and tried to get us to go see the Rockettes with him in Texas (turned out we didn't have a youth group). So I think that is something you are going to find any place where people have community and are more easily trusting.

Personally I like the social atmosphere of the martial arts places I've attended. They are all a bit different. In Taekwondo our master was korean and it was a lot like a church community (trips, activities, in addition to classes and competition). I go to eat at his house with his family a lot and his wife used to cook for us sometimes in the morning. It was very nice. Muay Thai and boxing gyms are a little more rowdy but lots of fun (I like the sense of humor you encounter). It does take time to earn peoples respect though. At a lot of these places, they don't welcome you fully till you've been there a while (because so many people quit). The place I am at now is great. They have a real sense of community. I live in a bit of a rough area and they do a good job giving back.

Glad you've found a nice place!
Alas, the current places I'm in lack that sense of community (one of them more than the other). Or rather, they're split among "cliques" of people and almost don't interact... I hate cliques!
Ah well. We'll work with what we've got, and do the best we can. In other words, business as usual!

 

[Voros]

In terms of defense in boxing right now I'd say Canelo has really upped his game and is currently one of the most sophisticated defensive fighters in the sport.

 

[AsenRG]

In terms of defense in boxing right now I'd say Canelo has really upped his game and is currently one of the most sophisticated defensive fighters in the sport.

Excellent moves! Especially the parry/dodge combo on 0:18-0:20 has been one of my favourites for quite a bit!

Come to think of it, I'm currently trying to teach a variation of it to First Daughter and First Son.

 

[Voros]

The great Hagler vs. Hearns fight up legit on YT as part of Black History Month:

 

[AsenRG]

As I said in my profile...today is the day when I first parried a car!

Guess those years of Exalted and wuxia games were good for something, after all!

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I'd disagree. I mean, OK, it takes a bit of time, but not all that long. And it's time well-invested, just like time spent practicing the one-two ain't wasted. IME and YMMV and all that jazz.

Sorry it has been ages! Should have replied sooner

Obviously this one is going to vary a lot from individual to individual. I just found parrying fluid punches to be one of the most difficult things, and it took me a long time to get anywhere with it. I had no problem learning how to parry a kick or old school karate/TKD chambered punch. But learning parrying for Muay Thai, MMA and boxing was something I found rather dizzying (it took me a lot of time to be able to see the movements in time to react that way (whereas with bobbing and weaving and other measures, it wasn't as hard). I am not saying you shouldn't learn to parry, it is obviously a very important tool. It is one though I think can take a good deal of time to master.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

And that's a noble approach! I just see sparrings as a fun exercice, but one that is nonetheless a means to an end.

I just have heard of too many people locally who got hot headed and knew how to fight, then got seriously injured with a weapon or something. And my father was a pacifist so that has probably impacted my view on the purpose of doing martial arts.

Sparring can be a fun exercise. It can also be brutal. I actually cracked a rib sparring last year (in fact I have been out of the Gym since around December, though I spent most of the shut down training on my heavy bag and improving my footwork). But Boston boxing and kick boxing gyms are known for going very hard in sparring. It is still fun, and I have absolutely been to gyms here that approach sparring more lightly. But if you go to a boxing gym, especially in an area like this, sparring is often going to be quite hard. I think you need both actually. I see a lot of discussions around trends in sparring and how hard the contact should be. The downside of going hard is, aside from being more anxiety inducing (which if your a normal person it should be), is it is pretty unforgiving so you take less chances and have a harder time developing technique. But it is good because you are getting an opponent who is giving you much more full resistance and you are feeling what it is like to get hit hard by someone. Lighter sparring I find is also helpful because you can experiment more and take chances and that allows you to develop techniques.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Yeah, I'm just...not entirely persuaded that caging makes me better defended than continuing to strike, or trying to "tie up" the enemy's hands.
I mean, if my opponent can deal with these, my caging is just going to give such a superior fighter more* of a passive punchbag, and a defence that's easier to pick apart. Usually.
I readily admit that I take such decisions by "feel", though.
And of course, in "my arena" running away is another final** option that boxers ain't got. So keep that in mind as well!

Everyone is different. It might not work for you. I can say when I cage, I don't see it as being a passive punching bag. I see it as a last line of defense, you do because if you don't you are probably going to get knocked out. And you use the buffering it affords you to get some time to find your way to a better position or a good angle. You can be caging and looking for a counter for example. I think the key for me was learning to keep my eyes open, on the target and to stay relaxed when you have to cage. For me the problem with just continuing to strike or try to tie up, is I find that is when I often get hit with something very hard I don't see coming (and I think it is because at that point the person has a good read on me, which is why I am taking shots, and by punching I am exposing myself to good counters). Again, everyone is different.

That said I do think to keep moving forward is important, even if you are getting pummeled. I noticed a huge, huge difference if you continue to stalk your sparing partner even while they are landing good shots, versus if you retreat or give up some space. So I am not saying don't do things like crowd their punches. I am just saying at a certain point caging is useful.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

As I said in my profile...today is the day when I first parried a car!

Guess those years of Exalted and wuxia games were good for something, after all!

What happened?

 

[AsenRG]

Sorry it has been ages! Should have replied sooner

Obviously this one is going to vary a lot from individual to individual. I just found parrying fluid punches to be one of the most difficult things, and it took me a long time to get anywhere with it. I had no problem learning how to parry a kick or old school karate/TKD chambered punch. But learning parrying for Muay Thai, MMA and boxing was something I found rather dizzying (it took me a lot of time to be able to see the movements in time to react that way (whereas with bobbing and weaving and other measures, it wasn't as hard). I am not saying you shouldn't learn to parry, it is obviously a very important tool. It is one though I think can take a good deal of time to master.

No problem! You don't owe me a reply...
And indeed, parrying is not easy at all. But it works great if you pull it off, and combining it with movement actually makes it easier.

Amusingly, I can't even remember the last time I'd had someone throwing a "chambered at the waist" punch at me. I suspect it wasn't in the last decade, either...so basically I can't comment on the difference. Anyone I've fought/sparred was using punches from a guard, usually in front of the face or chest.
Don't know if retracting to the chest makes it "chambering", though. If it does, then the last time I stopped such a strike was this year, actually.

What happened?

The description sounds pathetic, though!

I was crossing a street and let a car pass by (no crossing in sight on this street). Then the ***** ******** who was driving stopped in the middle of the street, reversed and drove backwards...and I only noticed it when he was less than a foot from me (I was actually looking in the other direction for the next car, because it's a one-way street).

So I basically used a modified forearm parry on his back bumper and let the force drive me backwards without breaking my stance. At the same time I kept walking, rolling over my forearm...which allowed me to finish crossing the street (it was the same distance, and I had momentum pushing me forward, so it didn't make sense to stop). Then I'd finished crossing, so I turned towards the car, cursed him with choice words (like the ones I replaced with asterisks) and continued on my way.
Then I realized I'd just parried a car and started laughing...

Basically, what I did was to prevent him from bumping me for one crucial second or thereabouts. To do that, I basically let him "reposition" me, like what you do when you can't stop or displace the incoming strike. Kinda like Bong Sao/Hangen, except downwards, if you're familiar with either?

There you go. Not nearly as heroic-sounding as it was in the other post, but I just couldn't resist the temptation!

Everyone is different. It might not work for you. I can say when I cage, I don't see it as being a passive punching bag. I see it as a last line of defense, you do because if you don't you are probably going to get knocked out. And you use the buffering it affords you to get some time to find your way to a better position or a good angle. You can be caging and looking for a counter for example. I think the key for me was learning to keep my eyes open, on the target and to stay relaxed when you have to cage. For me the problem with just continuing to strike or try to tie up, is I find that is when I often get hit with something very hard I don't see coming (and I think it is because at that point the person has a good read on me, which is why I am taking shots, and by punching I am exposing myself to good counters). Again, everyone is different.

That said I do think to keep moving forward is important, even if you are getting pummeled. I noticed a huge, huge difference if you continue to stalk your sparing partner even while they are landing good shots, versus if you retreat or give up some space. So I am not saying don't do things like crowd their punches. I am just saying at a certain point caging is useful.

I think I mentioned it before...when you're caging as a desperation/last line effort, I can see it.
I'd prefer clinching, but as you say, everyone is different! If caging works for you, so much the better...
My problem is more with those that make this kind of defence* their basic defence.

I think I just read yesterday someone who summed it up way better than me: Ned Beaumont in Championship Streetfighting.
In it, he says "blocking* is the worst defence", but you'll probably end up doing it a lot because things seldom work as well as we'd like them to. For example, it can happen when you're trying to dodge or parry and miscalculate...so you end up taking the full brunt of the blow instead of deflecting it.
My experience supports this.
He also says that when you're hurt, clinching is what you should do. My luckily limited experience supports this as well!

So my point is: if you assume your opponent would know how to punch hard, learn how to parry first - and only apply blocks if you have to, due to miscalculations as the ones mentioned before!
That's what I've been saying in this thread. But I agree with you: everyone is different and this might be something that only works for me!

*I consider blocking and caging to be "birds of a flock", because both caging and blocking are about absorbing the enemy's punch with your limbs! Parrying is indeed vastly preferable if your opponent knows how to punch...

I just have heard of too many people locally who got hot headed and knew how to fight, then got seriously injured with a weapon or something. And my father was a pacifist so that has probably impacted my view on the purpose of doing martial arts.

Sparring can be a fun exercise. It can also be brutal. I actually cracked a rib sparring last year (in fact I have been out of the Gym since around December, though I spent most of the shut down training on my heavy bag and improving my footwork). But Boston boxing and kick boxing gyms are known for going very hard in sparring. It is still fun, and I have absolutely been to gyms here that approach sparring more lightly. But if you go to a boxing gym, especially in an area like this, sparring is often going to be quite hard. I think you need both actually. I see a lot of discussions around trends in sparring and how hard the contact should be. The downside of going hard is, aside from being more anxiety inducing (which if your a normal person it should be), is it is pretty unforgiving so you take less chances and have a harder time developing technique. But it is good because you are getting an opponent who is giving you much more full resistance and you are feeling what it is like to get hit hard by someone. Lighter sparring I find is also helpful because you can experiment more and take chances and that allows you to develop techniques.

I can only agree completely.

 

[zarion]

Once long ago I got a black belt in Tae Kwon Do.

Recently I moved to be closer to my family, and most importantly, my niece. After a conversation with my sister about how shitty men tend to treat women, she enrolled my niece in Tae Kwon Do.

My niece took to it like a fish to water. She was asked to join the elite Black Belt Club very quickly. At this rate she will have her black belt by the time she's twelve. I didn't get mine till I was sixteen, and I started at the same age she did.

I am so proud of her!!!

 

[Stevethulhu]

*I consider blocking and caging to be "birds of a flock", because both caging and blocking are about absorbing the enemy's punch with your limbs! Parrying is indeed vastly preferable if your opponent knows how to punch....

I find your terminology to be quite interesting. To me, a second dan karateka, caging and blocking are completely different concepts.

A block doesnt meet force with force. Instead, the aim is to deflect an incoming blow, often in tandem with shifts in foot and body positioning to help this deflection.

Ironically, those people who say karate blocks are ineffective quite often use very similar techniques. But calling it a parry rather than chudan soto uke or whatever, makes it easier to accept somehow.

 

[Fenris-77]

Blocks are fine up to a point IMO, but not cross blocking, which some arts do teach. I don't like the ergonomics of it, nor what happens to your defense and line. Learning to block with the minimum necessary force is actually a pretty high level skill too. It's not complicated but it requires a lot of reps against a lot of different opponents to get even somewhat right. Most lower belts expend way to much force and energy on their blocks until they learn the nuance of 'just enough'. The footwork part of blocking is also, IMO, under-taught by a lot of dojos, and is easily as important to the project as the actual mechanics of the block.

 

[AsenRG]

I find your terminology to be quite interesting.

The best I can say about my terminology (which you're reading in an imperfect translation) is that it works for me and helps me to structure things in my own head. It's not meant to ascribe values to anything, it's about knowing what everything is good for and what it's not even trying to do.

To me, a second dan karateka, caging and blocking are completely different concepts.

A block doesnt meet force with force. Instead, the aim is to deflect an incoming blow, often in tandem with shifts in foot and body positioning to help this deflection.

Yes, karate blocks need to be parries. The "uke", as I've been told, has clear connotations that point to this.
If anything, karate blocks are misnamed.
Well, at least under my termonology.

Full disclaimer: I've never studied karate. All my knowledge about karate-style moves comes from ju-jutsu which had lots of similar moves (even using the same names) and the teacher had black belt in karate as well.

Ironically, those people who say karate blocks are ineffective quite often use very similar techniques. But calling it a parry rather than chudan soto uke or whatever, makes it easier to accept somehow.

That actually happens a lot with all kinds of martial arts, and not only in martial arts, I've noticed.

Blocks are fine up to a point IMO, but not cross blocking, which some arts do teach. I don't like the ergonomics of it, nor what happens to your defense and line. Learning to block with the minimum necessary force is actually a pretty high level skill too. It's not complicated but it requires a lot of reps against a lot of different opponents to get even somewhat right. Most lower belts expend way to much force and energy on their blocks until they learn the nuance of 'just enough'. The footwork part of blocking is also, IMO, under-taught by a lot of dojos, and is easily as important to the project as the actual mechanics of the block.

Under cross-blocking, do you mean "parrying left hand with your left (or vice versa - and assuming your facing each other*, of course)"? I've been taught that this kind of move is only ever good against strikes with big wind-up, and even then you ought to combine it with body movement.
On the rest, I can only agree.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Under cross-blocking, do you mean "parrying left hand with your left (or vice versa - and assuming your facing each other*, of course)"? I've been taught that this kind of move is only ever good against strikes with big wind-up, and even then you ought to combine it with body movement.
On the rest, I can only agree.

To me, a cross block would be crossing your hands to catch an attack in the resulting X this makes. It's not advised except in very specific situations. But it can be used to set up grabs and follow up attacks if you use certain bunkai.

Which makes.me think, are kata fashionable again, now half he world is locked down?

 

[Fenris-77]

My use of the term there is specific to crossing your center line with either hand when blocking. I vastly prefer a number of other options over blocking right-right or left-left (your right vesus his right). One, because the distance travelled is greater than it needs to be, and two because it leaves the right (or left) side of your head open to a counter that's going to be tough to defend.

 

[AsenRG]

To me, a cross block would be crossing your hands to catch an attack in the resulting X this makes. It's not advised except in very specific situations. But it can be used to set up grabs and follow up attacks if you use certain bunkai.

Which makes.me think, are kata fashionable again, now half he world is locked down?

I've studied this kind of cross-blocks as well, but they weren't a part of the core syllabus (at least in most of the places where I was training). As you said, "not advised except in very specific situations".

Also, it seems Fenris-77 meant the other kind of cross-parrying.

My use of the term there is specific to crossing your center line with either hand when blocking. I vastly prefer a number of other options over blocking right-right or left-left (your right vesus his right). One, because the distance travelled is greater than it needs to be, and two because it leaves the right (or left) side of your head open to a counter that's going to be tough to defend.

Potentially worse, it leaves the whole side of your body that you used for the block susceptible to being controlled. And that might net you way more than a single strike - eating a whole combo isn't out of the question at all!

 

[Stevethulhu]

I've studied this kind of cross-blocks as well, but they weren't a part of the core syllabus (at least in most of the places where I was training). As you said, "not advised except in very specific situations".

Also, it seems Fenris-77 meant the other kind of cross-parrying.


Potentially worse, it leaves the whole side of your body that you used for the block susceptible to being controlled. And that might net you way more than a single strike - eating a whole combo isn't out of the question at all!

I'd block across the body in order to set up a move from the outside or inside. But mostly tontake advantage of how that kind of move sets your hips up for kicks. Especially mawashi geri and mikazuki geri type round kicks.

But it's not a front line technique, more a use it if there's an opening.

 

[Voros]

Not an expert by any means but I know in boxing the preferred method is to get out of the way of a blow using positioning and movement.

 

[AsenRG]

Yeah, but it doesn't exactly work every time. And there are uses for a defense in contact like opening the enemy's defense and impeding his further attack.

Not an expert by any means but I know in boxing the preferred method is to get out of the way of a blow using positioning and movement.

 

[zarion]

Not an expert by any means but I know in boxing the preferred method is to get out of the way of a blow using positioning and movement.

Sometime long ago I remember reading about a martial arts tournament where they invited the boxers to participate. Apparently the boxers absolutely destroyed the competition. It was theorized that the reason they did so was because of the boxers concentrating on protecting their heads. Martial Artists don't focus on it to the same degree and thus got KOed way easier.

 

[Silverlion]

I'm considering trying to find a school for old fat guys with health issues.

 

[Fenris-77]

What kind of health issues? If you don't mind me asking...

 

[Silverlion]

What kind of health issues? If you don't mind me asking...

Asthma returned, overweight (need to lose some, hence why I'm looking for something I enjoy), bad knee (kicked by a white belt in my early martial arts classes, long before I reached where I was before things changed and a hair short from black, not that I care about the belt, it was something to focus my mind on and did a darn good job.) Plus I dehydrate due to medications extremely rapidly.

 

[zarion]

Asthma returned, overweight (need to lose some, hence why I'm looking for something I enjoy), bad knee (kicked by a white belt in my early martial arts classes, long before I reached where I was before things changed and a hair short from black, not that I care about the belt, it was something to focus my mind on and did a darn good job.) Plus I dehydrate due to medications extremely rapidly.

Tai Chi is the way to go!

 

[AsenRG]

Tai Chi is the way to go!

Actually yes, I'd agree!
It helps with weight loss, though not as much as harder stuff, and definitely helps with other health-related stuff. Just be very careful, some of the moves might be bad for that knee if you don't go extra carefully (no contorting it no matter what anyone might tell you, thoguh I'm sure you know that).
The combat applications are actually a cherry on the top.

 

[Fenris-77]

Asthma returned, overweight (need to lose some, hence why I'm looking for something I enjoy), bad knee (kicked by a white belt in my early martial arts classes, long before I reached where I was before things changed and a hair short from black, not that I care about the belt, it was something to focus my mind on and did a darn good job.) Plus I dehydrate due to medications extremely rapidly.

Hmm. Well, I'd probably avoid significant ground randori, so BJJ and Judo should probably be off the list on account of that knee. Barring that, anything that has forms you can do slowly for practice when needed would be fine. I might avoid Taekwondo too on account of the heavy emphasis on leg techniques. Really though, you could probably do anything if you manage your asthma and keep hydrated.

 

[soltakss]

I'm considering trying to find a school for old fat guys with health issues.

How about non-contact Sumo?

 

[AsenRG]

How about non-contact Sumo?

Now I want to see non-contact Sumo!