Ugh, moral nausea seeping into my hobby-thoughts

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I don't think it began with Warcraft (Warhammer Fantasy?) but it definitely created the definitive approach for that type of orc.
Nah, Warhammer Orcs are complete shits. Bizarrely, 40k's Orks are arguably the most pleasant race in the setting, but that's because they live in a universe literally full of people to fight and loot, so they're perfectly content.
 
Nah, Warhammer Orcs are complete shits. Bizarrely, 40k's Orks are arguably the most pleasant race in the setting, but that's because they live in a universe literally full of people to fight and loot, so they're perfectly content.
I'd say they were a bit of transition point though. They made Orks funny, which made them appealing to play for some people, which lead in turn to Warcraft going the rest of the way when they made their own version.
 
As for the OP and the Majestic Wilderlands, 1985 to 1995 is the time period that my setting became it own thing away from the original Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Driven by me redrawing all the maps by hand because the old ones were falling part, and adopting GURPS as the primary system for when I refereed fantasy campaign.

Throughout the 80s because I focused on letting players "trash" my setting then meant I focused a lot more on PC versus NPCs conflict. It also meant to be "fair" many NPCs were not antagonists but potential allies or neutral to the player's schemes. This developed in one of my hard and fast rules that NPCs are not always dicks to the players. It hard to run a campaign focusing on players making their mark when they are paranoid about interacting with any NPCs. It often on the first things that I had to put novices to my setting at ease about. No not all the NPCs are out to get you or cheat you.

Second, throughout the time period, I opted for a simplification of the various lists of races and creatures. What was Bugbears, Orcs, Gnolls, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Kobolds became just Orcs and Goblins. However with that simplification came a increase of variety within each race namely by acknowledging that like humans all the fantasy races had multiple cultures. However I did not use the idea of the noble orcs that was gaining currency in the time period. Instead I created a reason why Orcs are what they are* and followed through on its implications. Which left Orcs in conflict with surrounding cultures unable to co-exist.

Much of this was enabled by GURPS point based character creation which allowed any race to have any occupations if you build the character that way. This idea carried over when I started to use other RPGs in the 2000s like D&D 3.X and other systems., And reflected in my take the Majestic Fantasy RPG.

Alongside this was realization in the late 70s when abound 14 or 15 that the depiction of Gypsies in Stoker's Dracula was pretty racist. I just got done reading some new books on the Holocaust and the connection was made. So from early one I never liked to use any trope or myths about Gypsies or racist tropes in general. Particularly those with clear origins on bullshit created in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century.

Now you can't escape this completely as the OP noted, much of human history is pretty racist. But there were time periods where it ebbed at bit.

One D&D specific idea, I lean into heavily is the one big happy family of human, demi-humans tropes. The idea that Humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings are brother-in-law against the dark forces of the world. For the Majestic Wilderlands this idea had an early genesis in the history of the setting birth in a trial by fire (The Dawn Wars where the Demon tried to enslave the world). So while there has been conflict over the millenia, the idea that everybody in it together is able to compete against some of more selfish philosophies out there.

It also had helped over the years, that while there is plenty of (it's evil from your point of view), I deliberately setup a source of true irredeemable evil in the form of the demons and their ilk. And roleplayed it consistently as such over the decade. I don't buy into the trope of the Devil being some Milton noble anti-hero. Demon are corrupted being who have damaged and scarred their souls so severely that they are incapable of good. Everything they do is towards their own selfish ends and often they will pick the path to cause the more harm and pain just to show they can.

In contrast the mortal races (and in the case of the elves immortal) always have reasons to act the way they do even the Orcs. While there may be selfish and evil individuals, it is rare that a culture is evil. Although there are plenty of culture whose standards are considered unpleasant to live under by their neighbors.

What the point of all this. It is create complications for when players try to achieve whatever goal they set for themselves. The exploration of dungeons and ruins still occur but it usually a means to a larger end. And to make the conflict with NPCs interesting, I use the details noted above to make it challenging and interesting. To add an element of discovery as well as a tool to further their own goals.

Here some write ups to illustrate my points.

Silvani
The Silvani are the various cultures that have had long term contact with the Elves. These include the demi-humans races and the Elessarians. These cultures place a great value on individual worth and exalt those who excel at a craft, or an art. While the various Silvani cultures have their disputes with other; they will band together when an outside culture attacks. The Silvani greatest weakness is their tendency to only think of long term goals and not recognize short term threats. This weakness as resulted in several Silvani cultures to be conquered by the Viridians, Tharians, and Ghinorians. This also has led to the downfall of the dwarven realms of the Majestic Fastness and the elven realm of Silverwood.

Sarnic
The Sarnic believe that they are the chosen people of Hamakhis, that their practice of human sacrifice strengthens Hamakhis in holding back the chaos. The average Sarnic is highly superstitious and lives a life of ritual that covers nearly every activity both mundane and spiritual. Their society is highly stratified with dozens of ranks in each social class. The Sarnic lands are noted for the practice of Necromancy. Zombies, and skeletons are used as labor in dangerous engineering projects. Many members of the temple hierarchy and the Order of Pegana are free willed undead.

Much of this social system was created in the aftermath of winning their freedom from the Ghinorians. The rebel leaders became petty tyrants and used the sacrifices as an instrument of terror. The reforms of Pegana broke the power of the tyrants. But various Sarnic city-states continue to be dominated by the temples. The Order of Pegana lives outside of the city-states and the White Robes of the Order act as an inquisition against abuse and corruption of the Black Robes of the Temples.

Orcs
Orcs are defined by aggression. The Demon Lords took humans and bred in a fierce aggressiveness that only subsided in the presence of a strong leader. The rebels tried integrating liberated Orcs as they did other races but soon were forced to drive them out as their aggressiveness caused major issues. After the war, the Orcs turned on themselves in a fratricidal struggle for power. Only their high birth rate saved the race and allowed them to spread throughout the Wilderlands. They soon dominated the Padizan Peninsula.

Since then their culture have remained stagnate. Their technology only advanced when a clever orc utilized a captive to teach him one of the crafts of another culture. Today the most advanced Orcs are at an early Iron Age level of technology capable of smelting iron but not steel and construct crude siege weapons.

Orc society is organized in a system of the strongest rules. Polygamy dominates Orc society with the strongest Orcs having the largest number of females in his harem. In a third of the orc tribes females actually dominate using a system of polyandry. Female Orcs are just as aggressive as male Orcs.

As a legacy of their original breeding, Orcs can be dominated by other races. The most notable recent example is the dragon Ancelgorn rallying the Orcs to sack the Majestic Fastness and Silverwood. This involves being able to defeat the strongest orc leader and promptly dealing with challenges from subordinate Orcs.

Hope this is useful
 
I think it was an MMO, if not WoW, then one of the big ones, that popularized orcs as more human "noble savages" rather than straight inhuman monsters.
Warcraft the RTS was before WoW. So whatever inspired Warcraft is the origin of the trope. Which... mmm one sec

Yup tvtrope to the rescue apparently Warcraft is the originator of the noble orc

 
I'd say they were a bit of transition point though. They made Orks funny, which made them appealing to play for some people, which lead in turn to Warcraft going the rest of the way when they made their own version.
I think the barbarian tribes genesis came within the Warcraft franchise though. Comparing the Orcs from 1-3, you can see a shift from 40k-like to more their own thing.
 
In some personal game worlds I've made, I've taken a page from Tolkien and had the goblinoids (orcs, goblins, trolls, bugbears and the like) humans, elves, dwarves giants and hobbits that have been twisted into hateful mockeries of themselves and serve the forces of evil.
 
Orcs exist in core RQ3; there are even racial variants that let you readily present a middle earth sort of setting with Snagga, Uruks, and normal orcs.
 
I was messing around with a supplement on Orcs for The Arcane Confabulation but with the recent controversy over orcs, I set it aside. Of course, orcs can be metaphors for a lot of different things which was the path I was taking. But honestly, most of my orcs are people too and they fight wars for reasons and aren't always as terrible as the propaganda would have it.
 
My orcs are just pure manifested hatred. My inspiration for them is the nightmare sequence from An American Werewolf in London

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but that's probably the exact opposite of the sorta thing the OP wants in their games at the moment.
 
Earthdawn (1993 so pre-Warcraft) also had orcs as a playable race of nomadic barbarian tribesmen. Former slaves to the Therans and others.
 
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Yeah, I haven't jumped on the "we can't have bad guys" bandwagon either.
IMO it's not 'we can't have bad guys' so much as 'we shouldn't label entire ethnic groups/races as evil'... except for the Broo, of course.
Runequest really was a breath of fresh air for me in how the 'monsters' were generally playable as PCs... how it depicted the trollkin as something more than sword fodder. Opening up character progression by way of things other than just killing and looting.
 
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IMO it's not 'we can't have bad guys' so much as 'we shouldn't label entire ethnic groups/races as evil'... except for the Broo, of course.
That would be the reasonable version of that position sure, and I have no problem with it. The shrill internet version one the other hand...
 
definitely not Warhammer, orcs there are a type of fungus.

But Warhammer did standardize orcs as having green skin.

I think it was an MMO, if not WoW, then one of the big ones, that popularized orcs as more human "noble savages" rather than straight inhuman monsters.
When did they decide on that particular stupidity? Originally, orks (with a K so Tolkien estate don't sue and we can copyright) were just a race of football hooligans. He whole mushroom thing seems to have some.along after I drifted off Warhammer.
 
When did they decide on that particular stupidity? Originally, orks (with a K so Tolkien estate don't sue and we can copyright) were just a race of football hooligans. He whole mushroom thing seems to have some.along after I drifted off Warhamster.
Didn’t GW put out some legal warning to stop John Wick using the ‘k’ in his Orkworld game?
 
I still have a soft spot for the pig-faced orcs

37282780430_1368f2d46e_o.jpg
 
1991



Incorrect. In Warhammer Fantasy they were always called Orcs, in 40K they called them Orks with a K.
My WHFRP 1e and Fantasy Battle 3rd ed are packed away, so I'll bow to your superior pedantry for that one.

It still bemused me when I saw that particular bit of lore for the first time. And is it true that GW don't use the term Space Marine anymore?
 
I think they do
The way recent books work is that the common Imperial peasant will call them "Space Marines", but among each other and with people at the higher levels of society "Astartes" will be said.
 
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My orcs are just pure manifested hatred. My inspiration for them is the nightmare sequence from An American Werewolf in London

but that's probably the exact opposite of the sorta thing the OP wants in their games at the moment.

Like I mentioned in another thread, I think I'm going to experiment with swarms of utterly non-human, non-sapient antagonists for my next D&D campaign. Oozes, elementals, plants, constructs, whatever. Man vs nature as the central conflict.

But for the record, while I might have very personal qualms about them at the moment, I utterly refuse to polemicize orcs or how people choose to deploy them in their campaigns. Fiction is fiction.
 
Like I mentioned in another thread, I think I'm going to experiment with swarms of utterly non-human, non-sapient antagonists for my next D&D campaign. Oozes, elementals, plants, constructs, whatever. Man vs nature as the central conflict.

You could do some kind of colonization, but actually have the land being colonized not have sentient species for the colonizers to be dicks to.

Trying to help maintain a society in a harsh land with most of the interplay of factions being about groups within the colony and not necessarily about better/worse but priorities would let you still have meaningful "human" interaction without having to delve into the dark underbelly of human evil.
 
I think they do, but just not as the official title on books and minis. That lawsuit....didn't go so well for them.

That was back during the Kirby era though.
Yeah everybody in the world laughing at them, including the judge...I think it went great for them, it taught them they had a madman running the company who was destroying it from within.
 
Like I mentioned in another thread, I think I'm going to experiment with swarms of utterly non-human, non-sapient antagonists for my next D&D campaign. Oozes, elementals, plants, constructs, whatever. Man vs nature as the central conflict.

But for the record, while I might have very personal qualms about them at the moment, I utterly refuse to polemicize orcs or how people choose to deploy them in their campaigns. Fiction is fiction.
Have you read the War Against the Cthorr books? They're basically about an egological invasion of Earth. And the GURPS book to go with it is fairly good for an SJG tie in.
 
1991



Incorrect. In Warhammer Fantasy they were always called Orcs, in 40K they called them Orks with a K.
I thought the fungoid stuff was from the Ork revamp in Gorkamorka, where they also really doubled-down on the scavenger, bodged-together, it-looks-like-a-funny-mess-but-is-actually-a-superweapon aesthetic, and it got back-ported to Fantasy's Orcs because eh, why not? And prior to that, Orcs (Like the other races) were just assumed to have women and children off-screen?

Also, Orc cheerleaders still exist for Blood Bowl, and they're awesome.

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The way recent books work is that the common Imperial peasant will call them "Space Marines", but among each other and with people at the higher levels of society "Astartes" will be said.
The word's always been used in 40k materials, they just doubled down on it.

What really bugs me is "heretic astartes", which while accurate, doesn't feel like a phrase that chaos marines would use for themselves (They'd consider themselves to be in the right), and nor does it feel like a phrase the Imperium would use for them (They wouldn't give them the honour and respect of that title).
 
I thought the fungoid stuff was from the Ork revamp in Gorkamorka, where they also really doubled-down on the scavenger, bodged-together, it-looks-like-a-funny-mess-but-is-actually-a-superweapon aesthetic, and it got back-ported to Fantasy's Orcs because eh, why not? And prior to that, Orcs (Like the other races) were just assumed to have women and children off-screen?

Before Gorkamorka the concept was introduced first, I beleive, in the 'Ere We Go supplement.

I don' think Orcs/Orks had much of an identity unique to Warhammer before that. I know at that point Ansell was pushing Fimir and Beastmen (not-Groo) as the primary antagonists in the same role as Orcs in other fantasy worlds, and most of the original (post Ral Partha) orc models circa 2nd edition were direct transports from Citadel's Middle Earth line.
 
My orcs are just pure manifested hatred. My inspiration for them is the nightmare sequence from An American Werewolf in London

View attachment 25550

but that's probably the exact opposite of the sorta thing the OP wants in their games at the moment.
I was in 5th grade and wandered into a video store right at this scene came on the TV. I had not developed my horror callouses at that point, so it was pretty traumatic. I'd just picked up D&D, and even though I'd already read Lord of the Rings, this scene formed a core part of my ideas about orcs.
I still have a soft spot for the pig-faced orcs

37282780430_1368f2d46e_o.jpg
Same here. The funny thing is that for a while, I remembered the creatures in AWiL as having pig-faces because I thought of them as orcs. I vaguely recall having a conversation with friends in school were I was talking about "that scene with the pig-faced guys" and them looking puzzled.

I think part of the advantage of the pig-faced orcs was that they were more clearly not human, especially back in the days before Warhammer turned them green.
 
That's kinda surreal that both of us managed to associate the same scene with orcs. I recall as a young kid, that scene left such a huge impression on me, but for some reason for the longest time I had no idea what film it was from, despite at the same time remember having watched AwiL, but I guess somehow I managed to disassociate the two. So when I discovered years later it was from that film I was a bit shocked.
 
That's kinda surreal that both of us managed to associate the same scene with orcs. I recall as a young kid, that scene left such a huge impression on me, but for some reason for the longest time I had no idea what film it was from, despite at the same time remember having watched AwiL, but I guess somehow I managed to disassociate the two. So when I discovered years later it was from that film I was a bit shocked.
That only makes it more of a coincidence if you had it disassociated from the rest of the movie, as I just saw that one scene in isolation in a video store.
 
Those are lovely Tristram. Where are they from? They look a little too fluid to be Minifigs.

In my old Bare Bones (yes someone else has since used the name if I ever come back to it I'll call it Old Bones) rpg/miniatures rules there were the noble warrior race of Orcs and the vile and savage race of Boarks that kept giving them a bad reputation.

Orc cheerleaders are wearing hair and boob squigs.
 
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