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I'd rather see more archetype-breaking example characters from the different race / class combos - what does an Orc Paladin look like, for example? How might they view their cause? What sort of bargain might a Dwarven Warlock have struck? How does an Elven Alchemist interact with the forest? What ferocity does a Kobold Barbarian bring and what might make them abandon their tribe? How does a Tiefling Cleric reconcile their faith and their ancestry, and how do others reconcile that about them? Set them in default D&Dland, but double down on the new options provided.So 'yes' to bringing back class restrictions and level limits?
I'm into the idea. But how's the optimiser culture in D&D these days? I'm assuming that certain things fit better together than others. And there's people who see things that don't fit as bad.I'd rather see more archetype-breaking example characters from the different race / class combos - what does an Orc Paladin look like, for example? How might they view their cause? What sort of bargain might a Dwarven Warlock have struck? How does an Elven Alchemist interact with the forest? What ferocity does a Kobold Barbarian bring and what might make them abandon their tribe? How does a Tiefling Cleric reconcile their faith and their ancestry, and how do others reconcile that about them? Set them in default D&Dland, but double down on the new options provided.
Yes and no. Light optimization is easy. Some of the serious nova builds are little more work. Unless you have, you know, the internet and shit. I blame treantmonk.Optimising is basically easy as pie in 5e as there's very few pieces that can be moved around, but that doesn't stop people making their colour coded guides and the like.
As much as ever, but the concepts in Tasha's have essentially removed the concept of "bad" racial choices so it's even easier to make a perfectly playable character. Sure, optimizers are gonna keep on doing their thing, but I'm of the opinion that designing a game to counter optimisers at the expense of standard players is a waste of time; ultimately they're a harmless stress test.I'm into the idea. But how's the optimiser culture in D&D these days? I'm assuming that certain things fit better together than others. And there's people who see things that don't fit as bad.
Surely the game hasn't moved away from that?
One person's 'interesting' is another person's overly complex and unnecessary.The argument isn't "remove them entirely", it's "do them in an interesting way"; a special rule is more interesting than a stat modifier for reflecting a racial physiological difference because every member gets it. For example, the half-orc's Relentless Endurance ability ("When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.") is more interesting than their Constitution increase because it drastically changes how they fight; it makes even the frailest Half-Orc tougher than you'd expect, able to stand on their own a bit more, and meaning any enemy they fight needs to put in more effort to put one down. It also makes them tough in a different way to Dwarves, for example, and their Dwarven Resilience feature; a Dwarf won't go down, a Half-Orc won't stay down.
If anything, I think Elves don't have any flavourful ability of their own, Keen Senses being... eh (I'd be inclined to go with advantage on Perception rolls instead, which might be a bit too strong)... but +2 Dex isn't as interesting as their OD&D class-switching (For example).
I'd rather see more archetype-breaking example characters from the different race / class combos - what does an Orc Paladin look like, for example? How might they view their cause? What sort of bargain might a Dwarven Warlock have struck? How does an Elven Alchemist interact with the forest? What ferocity does a Kobold Barbarian bring and what might make them abandon their tribe? How does a Tiefling Cleric reconcile their faith and their ancestry, and how do others reconcile that about them? Set them in default D&Dland, but double down on the new options provided.
I think you've read me wrong. Ladybird's Unconventional Adventurers would be a demonstration of this openness. Yes, it would be fluff, but it would clearly be not for the people that don't like fluff; but stick a subclass or two in there for everyone and they'd be content with the front half of the book.You are asking about interesting setting ideas which in chargen mini-game circles would be deemed "fluff."
I, like you, find those questions interesting AND was impressed 5e let you make those combinations out of the gate with near minimal fuss. AND I, unlike you it seems, was glad that they were for the most part setting agnostic about those ramifications. I like talking about those things and exploring them in settings, but first there had to be a re-establishment of the GM as a table authority.
Another thing I quite liked about 4e; the improvised actions table made ruling that sort of thing easy. Player wants to chew the scenery? Cool cool, here's a table with suggested difficulties and damage, so the player can have their fun and the DM doesn't need to worry about if they're breaking the game.So they had to tone down officiality of Sage Advice rules answers, explicitly empower the GM role in the PHB, DMG, & MM, actually type up again "permission" for Improvised Actions to exist and show examples of allowance to mix different Ability (stats) with atypical Skills, etc.. A lot of the past 15 years had to be explicitly undone to return to a baseline ambiguity so people could be reminded they are allowed to DIY. Aaaaand Org Play and online forum build culture has been fighting tooth and nail to stamp out that divergence ever since.
Gnome Paladins. They represent everthing that's wrong with 5E. Also, they're devilish tricky to smoke out of their burrows when they've gone feral.I'm kind of puzzled by some of the idea that atyical class combinations are now possible.
They became possible twenty years ago. As soon as 3E came out we were playing Hafling Paladins and Half-Orc Monks and Dwarven Wizards.
Let's ignore that they stand over 9' tall and have excessive levels of strength (As they were Large creatures.) Let's turn every single character into a same grey blob!You wonder if racial abilities should be dumped altogether. Want to play an ogre? Fine, roll 3d6 or standard array like everyone else.
That psychological element of always being behind is important I think. It's why these small differences seem to bother people more in D&D than in point buy systems where the progression is often theoretically infinite.One of the differences between 3e and 5e that mitigates racial differences in ability scores is that scores max out at 20. So, races that don't increase their main class stat is behind for only a bit, not forever. I'm fine with racial modifiers for abilities but if a player wanted to switch things around, I'd be ok with it.
That's... not what anybody wants, though? The intention is to find some way to implement those abilities in a way that actually makes Ogres stronger and tougher than a human with the same stats.You wonder if racial abilities should be dumped altogether. Want to play an ogre? Fine, roll 3d6 or standard array like everyone else.
Playing a centauroid in a dungeon crawl is a fucking miserable experience, I can tell you. Corridors and low ceilings suck, sure, that's obvious, but eventually you'll need to go up or down and you are not designed for that, plus you're too big to be hoisted easily. Having tried it, I'd rather play a wolf or a sabre-tooth tiger instead if I ever feel like playing a quadruped again.The crap really only matter to white room knights anyway. If I'm playing an Ogre because I want to play an Ogre, does it really matter if I start at 17 or 19 strength? Not at all. If those two pips really matter to someone, I might suggest they don't have the right reasons in mind for playing an ogre in the first place. I would also bet that a lot pf people who want to play ogres don't seriously want their GMs to make them pay the penalty for being 9 foot tall and 4 foot wide. How about disadvantage on combat when the ceiling is less that 15' high and/or the passage or room is 10 feet wide or less. So in like every dungeon everywhere. Same with fucking centaurs. Yeah, go ahead Black Beauty, try to run on cobble stones and still corner.
I played a centaur in a RuneQuest 2E game (Griffin Island) back in the day. He was fun right up until we entered a city or a dungeon, then it was a massive pain the ass.The crap really only matter to white room knights anyway. If I'm playing an Ogre because I want to play an Ogre, does it really matter if I start at 17 or 19 strength? Not at all. If those two pips really matter to someone, I might suggest they don't have the right reasons in mind for playing an ogre in the first place. I would also bet that a lot pf people who want to play ogres don't seriously want their GMs to make them pay the penalty for being 9 foot tall and 4 foot wide. How about disadvantage on combat when the ceiling is less that 15' high and/or the passage or room is 10 feet wide or less. So in like every dungeon everywhere. Same with fucking centaurs. Yeah, go ahead Black Beauty, try to run on cobble stones and still corner.
OK, /rant.
Well, RAW, a Halfling could end up with just as much strength as an Ogre. Perhaps there are other, non-ability score ways to differentiate the physiological differences between races.You wonder if racial abilities should be dumped altogether. Want to play an ogre? Fine, roll 3d6 or standard array like everyone else.
C'mon Opa, you know there's no such thing as forum build culture, certainly not any different from the 70's, we all know culture can't change over 40 years. It is known.Org Play and online forum build culture has been fighting tooth and nail to stamp out that divergence ever since.
It's called setting balance. What would and should happen given the realities of the setting does happen. Centaurs split their hooves if they don't get shod. Ogre's aren't going to be able to squeeze through a goblin bolt hole.The crap really only matter to white room knights anyway. If I'm playing an Ogre because I want to play an Ogre, does it really matter if I start at 17 or 19 strength? Not at all. If those two pips really matter to someone, I might suggest they don't have the right reasons in mind for playing an ogre in the first place. I would also bet that a lot pf people who want to play ogres don't seriously want their GMs to make them pay the penalty for being 9 foot tall and 4 foot wide. How about disadvantage on combat when the ceiling is less that 15' high and/or the passage or room is 10 feet wide or less. So in like every dungeon everywhere. Same with fucking centaurs. Yeah, go ahead Black Beauty, try to run on cobble stones and still corner.
OK, /rant.
That's my Halfling Druid's best buddy/casting platform.
This is the norm at a lot of tables including mine but it might be considered old fashioned. I personally enjoy setting balance but I think a lot of 5e playerbase is clamoring for standardization for league play or whatever they call it when you play with randos.It's called setting balance. What would and should happen given the realities of the setting does happen.
Just don't get the Org Play. It just has never lived up to the promise. If I'm going to play with a group I'm never seeing again, a normal RPG with pregens, a cardgame, boardgame, wargame, narrative rpg or storygame is preferable to AL play. I've done and watched enough to know that's just not my jam.This is the norm at a lot of tables including mine but it might be considered old fashioned. I personally enjoy setting balance but I think a lot of 5e playerbase is clamoring for standardization for league play or whatever they call it when you play with randos.
Agree, neither of us cares for this sort of play but apparently a lot of people want to be able to take their characters from table to table and thus the push for standardization across the board insofar as balance goes.Just don't get the Org Play. It just has never lived up to the promise. If I'm going to play with a group I'm never seeing again, a normal RPG with pregens, a cardgame, boardgame, wargame, narrative rpg or storygame is preferable to AL play. I've done and watched enough to know that's just not my jam.
I'd totally play in a RPG League if it was setup like KoDT depicts.Agree, neither of us cares for this sort of play but apparently a lot of people want to be able to take their characters from table to table and thus the push for standardization across the board insofar as balance goes.
I think organised play is used more to justify some weird RAW obsession much more often than it is a real active concern.Agree, neither of us cares for this sort of play but apparently a lot of people want to be able to take their characters from table to table and thus the push for standardization across the board insofar as balance goes.
So it's just like 40K has been for maybe the last 20 years?I think organised play is used more to justify some weird RAW obsession much more often than it is a real active concern.
We needed a balance.I'm not sure sure how you got from my post, which is more the stuff of nightmares, to your post, which is like the opposite, but I'm cool with it.
Let's ignore that they stand over 9' tall and have excessive levels of strength (As they were Large creatures.) Let's turn every single character into a same grey blob!