Modiphius is doing Dune

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Doctor Wombat said:
Assuming Dune is anything like the other Modiphius 2d20 games, your dice pool for tasks ranges between 2 and 5 dice. That's not exactly an intellectual challenge to calculate, at least for me.

Combat Dice / Challenge Dice pools can get bigger, but I'm not sure Dune has an equivalent to those.
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Pretty sure that's just a joke on Baulderstone's part. One reason I'm interested in this is not only my love for Dune but to see how they've adapted the system to the setting.

I have no issues with 2d20 myslef I just think it has been over-applied to settings/genre where the fit seems awkward, it also has tended towards a smidgen more crunch than I like. But I could see how a stripped down version (from the Twitter review thread it sounds like combat has been appropriately simplified) could be a good fit for Dune.
 
Voros said:
But I could see how a stripped down version (from the Twitter review thread it sounds like combat has been appropriately simplified) could be a good fit for Dune.
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I'd be interested to see if that's the case. Might make 2D20 more palatable to me if the Dune-iteration isn't the weird complex-abstract-thing that I've encountered in other variations (like Mutant Chronicles and Conan).

I've heard that John Carter of Mars is one of the more simplified versions of 2D20. Maybe Dune will steer more in that direction? (I've got a free pdf copy of JCoM that I think I picked up a year ago. But I've never read it...)
 
Doctor Wombat said:
Assuming Dune is anything like the other Modiphius 2d20 games, your dice pool for tasks ranges between 2 and 5 dice. That's not exactly an intellectual challenge to calculate, at least for me.

Combat Dice / Challenge Dice pools can get bigger, but I'm not sure Dune has an equivalent to those.
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It wasn't so much the math, as needing to make decisions about applying points to buy dice, or something like that. I played it once a few years ago, so my memories on the specifics are a little hazy.

I'll admit, one of the problems might have been the GM getting a handle on the system, as they were new to it. He might have been simply calling for too many rolls for unimportant things, like taking a tricorder reading.

Voros said:
But I could see how a stripped down version (from the Twitter review thread it sounds like combat has been appropriately simplified) could be a good fit for Dune.
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Yes, when I read the playtest rules for the Star Trek version, I really liked it for the first couple of pages. My thought was that it was like a stripped down Cortex+. Then the rules kept going and going, and it began to feel like a heavier version of Cortex+. I think it is possible for there to be a version of the system that I can like.
 
Baulderstone said:
It wasn't so much the math, as needing to make decisions about applying points to buy dice, or something like that. I played it once a few years ago, so my memories on the specifics are a little hazy.

I'll admit, one of the problems might have been the GM getting a handle on the system, as they were new to it. He might have been simply calling for too many rolls for unimportant things, like taking a tricorder reading.


Yes, when I read the playtest rules for the Star Trek version, I really liked it for the first couple of pages. My thought was that it was like a stripped down Cortex+. Then the rules kept going and going, and it began to feel like a heavier version of Cortex+. I think it is possible for there to be a version of the system that I can like.
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The difficulty in the system is not in the adding up of dice pools as such - it is in having all the players (and GM) knowing and being fully aware of what each of the different pools can be spent on at any given time. Players need to be fully conversant with the rules in order to be able to play - like trying to play Tennis before you know how to serve properly. My advice, as a more freeform GM, is to scrap Threat and just have Momentum as a singular, player driven resource.
 
Endless Flight said:
I see Dune is on DTRPG. Anyone pick it up yet?
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At that price point I figure I might as well get the hardcopy. Been checking Amazon.ca for it to appear. Right now they just have the Harkonen special edition available for pre-order at a ridiculous amount (over $100 CAD).
 
Endless Flight said:
I see Dune is on DTRPG. Anyone pick it up yet?
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Yep - I had it on preorder.

The system is essentially the same as in the playtest - but they have spent more time explaining, or giving examples to different concepts. The setting stuff, which may appeal to real Dune aficionados covers every single book in the series as different eras. The art and presentation is top notch. There is an original adventure in it, while there is also more meat on how to run campaigns with an Agent/Architect split.

I have played a mini- Dune campaign earlier this year. I may take an opportunity to run it again later this year - possibly inspired by the movie release.
 
Endless Flight said:
I see Dune is on DTRPG. Anyone pick it up yet?
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Yep
Looks quite nice with the House aspect and the systems allowing for politics/intrigue. I think like the LUG version (which I found years ago and printed out and then never played).
Probably could do with a few more planets, but you can look all that up in a DUne atlas/wiki.

I like the idea of a game about Guild agents dealing with two rival houses fighting over spice
 
The character sheet makes me think it's going to be a very simplified iteration of 2d20...

1618007052776.png

... ?
 
I could almost use that directly in Cortex Prime

Personality traits as distinctions, Drive as Values (rather directly), the Skill as Roles and add in specialties for the Foci, assets as Signature Assets, and Talents as Talents. I've not even looked at the rules at all, so no idea if that is appropriate, but that feels like a pretty solid Cortex Prime game right there.
 
I wonder how hard it would be to switch all the D20s to D10s...I could deal with a D10 dice pool
 
We could try some chargen on this thread. How about a Spice Smuggler, like Han Solo only not one who drops his drawers at the slightest whiff of trouble.
 
Baulderstone said:
I'll admit, one of the problems might have been the GM getting a handle on the system, as they were new to it. He might have been simply calling for too many rolls for unimportant things, like taking a tricorder reading.
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Because of the Momentum/Threat point mechanic the GM has to make you roll for pretty much everything. Even stuff that has a zero difficulty and would be an automatic success in any other system. This is to allow the players to build up the Momentum Pool early on in the game so they have enough in the Pool for the fight with the bad guys in the next half of the adventure. Or enough to get extra dice for higher diff skill challenges later on (like stopping the warp core from exploding which might be a diff 5. A task you can't succeed at without spending M points basically.)

In practice it just kind of felt... really pointless. There was no tension in the early rolls and it started to feel like a grind. Just rolling for rolling's sake. Or the scenario would make them do a scan of the planet with a Diff zero and only give them minimal information. If they wanted more they had to spend the Momentum they just generated to get it. Which meant they often left the ship without the extra M points anyway.

From a GM's perspective it does force you to think more about how you structure your adventures. You have to litter the first "act" with lots of meaningless low diff roles. And then litter the subsequant "acts" with challenges that cannot be met without the players spending the M points they banked earlier. If they didn't bank any M at all at the start? Well, sucks to be them I guess.

You know that advice they give out about running mysteries? The bit about, "don't make the players roll to get the clues needed to move the adventure forwards." Or "if the player has a good idea that sounds fun just run with it, don't ruin it by making the player roll." Well... Star Trek Adventures pretty much bakes the complete opposite of that advice into its core.

Star Trek should be fast moving pulpy action. Instead the system just wraps itself around the PC's like Jacob Marley's chains.
 
Voros said:
At that price point I figure I might as well get the hardcopy. Been checking Amazon.ca for it to appear. Right now they just have the Harkonen special edition available for pre-order at a ridiculous amount (over $100 CAD).
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It's better to just get it from Modiphius if you're doing pre-order.
 
StonesThree said:
Because of the Momentum/Threat point mechanic the GM has to make you roll for pretty much everything...
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Thanks for the detailed reply, it's really appreciated. I don't want to sound dismissive of 2d20 but the stuff you describe make the system sound just plain wank. I'd really like to pick this up but how you've described the game working is completely putting me off - makes me wonder if its easy to just get rid of the momentum nonsense, maybe replace with Fate Points or something...
 
Rich H said:
Thanks for the detailed reply, it's really appreciated. I don't want to sound dismissive of 2d20 but the stuff you describe make the system sound just plain wank. I'd really like to pick this up but how you've described the game working is completely putting me off - makes me wonder if its easy to just get rid of the momentum nonsense, maybe replace with Fate Points or something...
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And yet no one else seems to have this problem.

It sounds to me like someone just isn't into the way the game plays trying to fit it into something it's not.
 
Ghost Whistler said:
And yet no one else seems to have this problem.

It sounds to me like someone just isn't into the way the game plays trying to fit it into something it's not.
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So how does it play then? How do the sessions play out regarding the need to build up momentum? Are there no 'pointless rolls' needed to do this, etc? Not really sure I need to be the middleman here; why not just directly refute StonesThree's claims with how the game actually works as he appears to be saying something you don't agree with?
 
Rich H said:
So how does it play then? How do the sessions play out regarding the need to build up momentum? Are there no 'pointless rolls' needed to do this, etc? Not really sure I need to be the middleman here; why not just directly refute StonesThree's claims with how the game actually works as he appears to be saying something you don't agree with?
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Admittedly Dune is the only 2d20 game I've played, but yes, I found myself looking for "easy" rolls early on to help build our Momentum pool before things kicked off later on.
 
Ladybird said:
Admittedly Dune is the only 2d20 game I've played, but yes, I found myself looking for "easy" rolls early on to help build our Momentum pool before things kicked off later on.
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Thanks Ladybird! Does this kind of focus on building Momentum make for a lot of meta-gaming like this - ie, more worried about building up a game mechanic currency than actually engaging with the adventure? Appreciate that they don't have to be separate, you can do both at the same time, but your reply and others make it seem like this can often not be the case?
 
Rich H said:
So how does it play then? How do the sessions play out regarding the need to build up momentum? Are there no 'pointless rolls' needed to do this, etc? Not really sure I need to be the middleman here; why not just directly refute StonesThree's claims with how the game actually works as he appears to be saying something you don't agree with?
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So your argument is that the game requires people make rolls they shouldn't have to due to being too easy just to get Momentum.

So instead of having them roll, just give them Momentum. That's one solution off the top of my head.

Maybe people who play 2d20 like making these rolls and so it's just not a style of rules that's for you. Completely fair.

This assumes they need this Momentum: above and beyond what they get from rolls you agree should be made.
 
Rich H said:
Thanks Ladybird! Does this kind of focus on building Momentum make for a lot of meta-gaming like this - ie, more worried about building up a game mechanic currency than actually engaging with the adventure? Appreciate that they don't have to be separate, you can do both at the same time, but your reply and others make it seem like this can often not be the case?
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I tried to do it in-character - the start of the scenario had us finding out what was going on, so I looked for something that fitted my PC (In this case, finding some warehouse workers and being the friendly official) - but I could see how some players might be more mechanistic about it.

And, again, I should point out that Dune is the only 2d20 game I've played. I'm not exactly experienced in it.

Ghost Whistler said:
So instead of having them roll, just give them Momentum. That's one solution off the top of my head.
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It works, but it seems like a bit of a clunky solution to me; personally I'd rather just not have a Momentum pool or similar artificial-seeming things. But I suspect I am not part of the 2d20 target audience.
 
Ghost Whistler said:
So your argument is that the game requires people make rolls they shouldn't have to due to being too easy just to get Momentum.

So instead of having them roll, just give them Momentum. That's one solution off the top of my head.

Maybe people who play 2d20 like making these rolls and so it's just not a style of rules that's for you. Completely fair.

This assumes they need this Momentum: above and beyond what they get from rolls you agree should be made.
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I've never played the game so I don't have an 'argument'. I'm asking for people to provide some detail behind the remarks they have made about the game - most people have done that.

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From what I've read so far, Momentum is needed for later in the game (by boosting abilities in order to defeat the climatic bad-guy, etc) so you need to find a way of players getting it but that looks like dice rolls that wouldn't be made in other games in order to fix the need to have enough of a system-resource for later on. So a potentially poor game experience has been created to address something that the game designers put in the game in the first place. That just seems... weird. I'd like for people with experience of playing the game to comment on this, Ladybird and StonesThree have done that as a critique. It'd be interesting to read about someone who has a better experience with it.
 
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Ladybird said:
I tried to do it in-character - the start of the scenario had us finding out what was going on, so I looked for something that fitted my PC (In this case, finding some warehouse workers and being the friendly official) - but I could see how some players might be more mechanistic about it.

And, again, I should point out that Dune is the only 2d20 game I've played. I'm not exactly experienced in it.


It works, but it seems like a bit of a clunky solution to me; personally I'd rather just not have a Momentum pool or similar artificial-seeming things. But I suspect I am not part of the 2d20 target audience.
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Thanks Ladybird, appreciate you taking the time to reply and can see what you mean. I don't really think it matters that you've only played Dune, that's the game I'm interested in so the fact you've played it and expressed things specifically about your experiences with it is pretty much what I'm after. Agree with you about the Momentum thing too, it does sound like a mechanic that simply won't work for me and would just go with Fate Points or similar for allowing PCs to do cool stuff when needed.

Will keep an eye on the thread but there are too many concerns here to get me in on the action so will pass for now.
 
I’ve played Modiphius’s Star Trek game. I had no problems with Momentum, generally speaking. In fact I kind of liked it, although it did make things feel a bit gamey at times.

I didn’t feel like we needed X amount of momentum to win the later encounters. Momentum is a resource that can certainly help the PCs, but I never felt like “oh we have no Momentum, now we’re doomed”.

I would say that some of the pre-written adventures did seem to have skill challenges and the like early on, and that these could indeed help you build up some momentum. But, I could easily see these challenges still existing absent Momentum. They mostly seemed like logical elements of a scenario.

I can see how some folks may perceive it that way, though. So I’d expect it to vary by group.
 
TristramEvans said:
There's nothing like several metacurrencies to make an RPG experience great...

...or is that grating?
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There are times I don't mind them, but such things as party-based resources are too far for me. I can rationalise fate points as "I'm going to dig deep for this and not let them get another one over on me", I can rationalise "your friend succeeded so you get an advantage to your next roll" as your team has momentum and is setting each other up, I can't rationalise "my friend succeeded this morning so I'd like to be inspired by that now" as anything other than gamey.
 
TristramEvans said:
I wonder how hard it would be to switch all the D20s to D10s...I could deal with a D10 dice pool
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TristramEvans said:
There's nothing like several metacurrencies to make an RPG experience great...

...or is that grating?
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Yeah, I don't think the type of the dice used for the dicepool is going to be a major problem, in comparison:thumbsup:!
 
Ladybird said:
There are times I don't mind them, but such things as party-based resources are too far for me. I can rationalise fate points as "I'm going to dig deep for this and not let them get another one over on me", I can rationalise "your friend succeeded so you get an advantage to your next roll" as your team has momentum and is setting each other up, I can't rationalise "my friend succeeded this morning so I'd like to be inspired by that now" as anything other than gamey.
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I see exactly what you mean here and completely agree. Also, what are Threat and Determination? Threat seems to be the GM resource so that can effectively cancel out Momentum (or make it necessary for Momentum to be used?) but what about Determination; what makes that different to Momentum? Feels like you could get shut of two of these (Momentum and Threat) and just have Determination; and then you have a resource to boost PC capability in the face of those climatic events etc.
 
Depends on how it is implemented, I could see Threat, Momentum, etc. being indicative of a faction's effectiveness in plotting and counterplotting which I would think would be central to a Dune game.
 
It seems like Dune is the sort of setting that could be played at various scales. I like the classic boardgame fr representing political intrigue and power struggles on a grand scale, but I don't know how easy that would be to translate to a 1:1 player:character set-up, especially if PCs are gathered in the typical RPG "adventuring group" format ...it almost sounds like the start of a joke...

A Bene Geserit, a Saudakar, and a Fremen enter a bar...
 
TristramEvans said:
It seems like une is the sort of setting that could be played at various scales. I like the classic boardgame fr representing political intrigue and power struggles on a grand scale, but I don't know how easy that would be to translate to a 1:1 player:character set-up, especially if PCs are gathered in the typical RPG "adventuring group" format ...it almost sounds like the start of a joke...

A Bene Geserit, a Saurderkar, and a Fremen enter a bar...
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Yeah but that is a common problem I find with a lot of game design: trying to fit every genre and setting into the 'motley crew adventuring' format inherited from D&D but ill-suited to a lot of other games.
 
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