Bill Reich
Legendary Pubber
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- Aug 10, 2017
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Or fiction.He was wrong, or likely, didn't know a thing about RPGs!
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Or fiction.He was wrong, or likely, didn't know a thing about RPGs!
He certainly didn't know anything about RPGs; I doubt he had ever even heard of them. He did know a great deal about Tacitus, though.He was wrong, or likely, didn't know a thing about RPGs!
That, too.Or fiction.
I suspected that would be the case - but I still disagree.He certainly didn't know anything about RPGs; I doubt he had ever even heard of them. He did know a great deal about Tacitus, though.
First, thanks for doing this thread; I have no interest in reading the Gor books or even the RPG treatment, but it's interesting to learn about it.That, too.
I suspected that would be the case - but I still disagree.
Also see: all the debate regarding historical settings. That's almost word-for-word one of the fallacies used in it.
Well, I haven't read Monstress, so can't comment. But IME, almost any setting, as opposed to adventure, allows you to do some interesting stuff.First, thanks for doing this thread; I have no interest in reading the Gor books or even the RPG treatment, but it's interesting to learn about it.
Second, I'm not seriously arguing that one cannot have a Roman game because of Tacitus or a Gor game because of Tarl Cabot, or whatever. I just meant that my old professor did think that Tacitus 'had all the good stuff in it' so to speak.
I think it is true that some books/films/tv shows etc are more tightly tied to the plot arc of their main characters, while others present more room for parties of p.c.s to do their own thing, so to speak. Any historical setting tends toward the latter, in my opinion, since in fact there were lots of individuals pursuing their own lives in those worlds without much reference to the activities of the movers and shakers. Some fiction tends the other way, though. For instance, the comic series Monstress, which I've recently read through. It's an interesting world, but most of the cool things about it are tightly tied to the main character, who is very much a special snowflake. I'm not sure there is enough there to allow a satisfying game in the setting if one did not focus on her.
Well, I haven't read Monstress, so can't comment. But IME, almost any setting, as opposed to adventure, allows you to do some interesting stuff.
There are possibly exceptions. I just can't think of any at the moment...after all, which setting doesn't have "lots of individuals pursuing their own lives in those worlds without much reference to the activities of the movers and shakers"?
Agreed! But isn't that why we have, you know, gaming supplements for said settings?The way I see it, it is largely a question of information. A setting for an RPG needs to provide you with useful information that can be employed in games.
In a historical setting, that information (typically) extends far beyond the lives and activities of a few top people, i.e. the people who would be characters in a novel if it were set in that world. So, for instance, if you want to set a game in Ancient Greece c. 400 B.C., there is a fair amount of information that you can use to figure out what society and life will be like for people besides Socrates or Alcibiades (to name just two people we know a fair amount about).
Fictional settings can provide some of that information—or not. It’s all a question of what sort of fiction it is and how it has been developed. Some stories focus so sharply on the protagonists that they give very little useful information about the rest of the people in the world, their societies, how they live, etc.
OK, that's a weakness of the source material. Though who knows...maybe a future issue might provide more? Or another story in the same universe?Or (and this is the case for Monstress) essentially everything that is interesting about that setting is intimately bound up with the main character, her background, and her story. Trying to focus on the rest of the world and other people leaves you with (1) a lack of useful background
Again, gaming supplements are meant for this exact reason. Otherwise you'd have a rulebook which has exactly one sentence for setting description: "Go read the books, we don't know anything outside of those"!So, yeah, in almost any fictional setting there is a fictional (and largely unseen) cast of thousands or millions in the background. But the fiction may not provide the information you need to deal with them, or really anything except the main characters in the novel/film/whatever and their stories.
I'm not sure I understand. Do you refer to the zadit, here?Bosk like.
I enjoyed the thread so I made what I thought was a slightly humorous reference to the alias that Tarl Cabot used at one point if my memory serves me. I've not read the books since the early 80's and started reading them in the 70's. Apologies that my humor attempt went astray.I'm not sure I understand. Do you refer to the zadit, here?
Ah, yes, Bosk of Port Kar. Actually he uses it repeatedly, I just didn't make the connection, and assumed you mean regular bosks (which would be capitalized since it's the first word in the sentence).I enjoyed the thread so I made what I thought was a slightly humorous reference to the alias that Tarl Cabot used at one point if my memory serves me. I've not read the books since the early 80's and started reading them in the 70's. Apologies that my humor attempt went astray.
I have a vague memory of this thing about the reading/writing of Gorean, now I'm wondering if I read it in an interview with the author some years ago or some forum post/thread. I need to pick up the books again at some point. I lost a rather large library of books some years ago due to water damage in a storage unit. Rebuilding the library has been slow going.Ah, yes, Bosk of Port Kar. Actually he uses it repeatedly, I just didn't make the connection, and assumed you mean regular bosks (which would be capitalized since it's the first word in the sentence).
Apologies, it was my mistake for not getting the reference!
Also, little fun tidbit which I'm not sure appears in World of Gor:
Gorean is written/read "as the bosk plows", that is, first left to right, then right to left on the next line, and you keep alternating!
It's always sad when books perish!I have a vague memory of this thing about the reading/writing of Gorean, now I'm wondering if I read it in an interview with the author some years ago or some forum post/thread. I need to pick up the books again at some point. I lost a rather library of books some years ago due to water damage in a storage unit. Rebuilding the library has been slow going.
Ancient Greek was written like that. Or so I remember. Remember reading about it. I wasn't there.Ah, yes, Bosk of Port Kar. Actually he uses it repeatedly, I just didn't make the connection, and assumed you mean regular bosks (which would be capitalized since it's the first word in the sentence).
Apologies, it was my mistake for not getting the reference!
Also, little fun tidbit which I'm not sure appears in World of Gor:
Gorean is written/read "as the bosk plows", that is, first left to right, then right to left on the next line, and you keep alternating!
I've said it 1234567890 times already: Gor is John Norman's take on a fantasy world inspired by Ancient Greece, Rome, the Vikings, the Zulu, and the Arab(ian Tales, I suspect), with added "benefits" to make the characters' lives a bit easier...like, I don't know, immortality, advanced medicine, reversible lifetime birth control, artificial light, and air transport!Ancient Greek was written like that. Or so I remember. Remember reading about it. I wasn't there.
So, guys, I'm curious...did anyone who was unfamiliar with Gor (or familiar from the pop-culture notoriety) change his/her opinion on the setting?
I've said it 1234567890 times already: Gor is John Norman's take on a fantasy world inspired by Ancient Greece, Rome, the Vikings, the Zulu, and the Arab(ian Tales, I suspect), with added "benefits" to make the characters' lives a bit easier...like, I don't know, immortality, advanced medicine, reversible lifetime birth control, artificial light, and air transport!
In light of this, and the fact that Goreans were Earth humans, and the culture is explicitly modelled after the "classical world" - up to and including the slavery (a part of the classical heritage many people want to forget about, it seems)...well, any similarities in the way Gorean and Ancient Greek are written, are probably not accidental!
Too, such makes total sense given Norman's classical education!
Ahem, that's really not true...But it seems to be more of a monoculture than anything we've ever had. There were other societies much different than Greece, many of them, and some very important to the modern world. The Han were out there, the Greeks may have even known about them. Central Asia had societies very different from Greece or the Han. From what I remember, and I only read a couple of the books, it gave me the same feeling that whole planets with the same ecosystem do.
Well...they can seem as the IS of another world to contemporary Westerners. Except for the religion part, where the Commandments are enforced by Blue Fire...and the part about complete personal freedom as long as societal obligations are met... and the part about learning being valued...In a way, I have a desire to play (GM) this game. It is something about presenting a world for the players that is unlike any other world that they've played in before. That tickles my interest because I want to do new and exciting things when I play and not the stale old D&D where adventures are just a chain of encounters until you face the big boss and either die on the spot or emerge victorious
It is at the surface a fantasy world, but without magic, that is really a science fiction game, but only a bit.
I've GM:ed games like Pendragon and Artesia that have their own particular brand of dividing the characters by sex and class without my players complaining. I've played in games set in the wild west with period correct levels of racism and sexism, but I've never run a game as extreme as Gor.
I doubt they'd enjoy playing something that could be misunderstood as ISIS or Talibans from another world. (thats probably the biggest hurdle. How to present them in a more flattering way )
I feel that in any case, since none of my players ever heard about these books or the game the best course of action would be to let them start off as a group of people investigating various disappearances on Earth and found out earth people have been abducted by "aliens"
That way the players learn about the world and their customs at the same pace as the characters.
Well...they can seem as the IS of another world to contemporary Westerners. Except for the religion part, where the Commandments are enforced by Blue Fire...and the part about complete personal freedom as long as societal obligations are met... and the part about learning being valued...
But really, Gor is about the Ancient World, except on a planet with man-ridden giant hawks, ridable reptiles, architectural wonders and ultra-developed medicine! Now, the knowledge isn't really widespread, but the Caste of Doctors can do stuff that eclipses our current biotechnologies!
Now, the fact that Antiquity had its share of slaves, and women rights weren't understood as in today's North America - it is much closer to today's Middle East/Central Asia, though in the past that was more or less the norm everywhere - which is going to cause some cultural dissonance.
Almost everything in our hobby depends on how the GM presents it...I think it hinges on how one presents the "garment of concealment" that the free women wear. If as a GM one is to describe them as a Hijab or Burqua I think the association would be a hard one not to make.
Possibly. I haven't read most of the adventures, as you know.It doesnt help that there are no pictures in the main book. There is one in the adventure Tower of Art however. It looks more Greek or Roman which would help the GM get the feel across that this is more of a ancient mediterranian culture than anything from the present day. The actual historical dresses, not the skimpy modern fancy dress party ones. Although those would suit enslaved girls, modest enough to cut down on the nudity (not that my players are prude, more for my own sake)
The Blue Fire is actually a very real possibility. It's just that the satellites aren't that numerous, so you can get around for a time.Speaking about the commandments and Blue fire, I've only read the first few novels so I am only at the point where the Priest-Kings (the few of them there are left) have stopped or very rarely enforces directly, relying on their zealous initiates to punish lawbreakers in their stead.
Sure earthling, I see you brought a AR-15 to Gor. I'm sure it will help you slay many a young warrior. But in time your bullets will be depleted, and then your body will be impaled. You would have begged for the mercy of the Blue fire.
I think you would be surprised, Edgewise. One of the huge advantages of playing online via text chat rather than in person is the degree of separation between player and character it enables. Suddenly a whole bunch of scenarios become playable and not just the mushy stuff. Now you can play a scenario of rescuing a lost child from a coven of witches for example without having to listen to 310 lb Gary doing an incredibly unconvincing falsetto.Also, I didn't get far enough to discover how the sexuality comes into play, but I literally can't think of anyone who I know that would want to role-play in a fantasy game that prominently features BDSM.
Ditto. Merely googling "ERP forum" would find quite a few places dedicated to it.I think you would be surprised, Edgewise.
I happen to frequent a couple of those communities and let me tell you, most of the posters in those sites find Gor boring for precisely that reason.Ditto. Merely googling "ERP forum" would find quite a few places dedicated to it.
Tales of Gor could fit right in, except the whole concept of Gor is FUCKING TAME compared to some stuff I've read on such forums.
Ditto, and the rest of them haven't read it at all.I happen to frequent a couple of those communities and let me tell you, most of the posters in those sites find Gor boring for precisely that reason.
Ditto, and the rest of them haven't read it at all.
The amusing part is when someone who regularly plays in games considered extreme on ERP sites tells you he avoids Gor "because it is misogynistic". Man what? Your own writing leaves Gor so far behind it's not even a spot in the rear mirror, and Gor is too much for you? Going by hearsay much?
The parts that draw most outrage start after circa book 8 or 9, though.While I have only read a few books so far I expected it to be much worse.
Bosk not boring....The parts that draw most outrage start after circa book 8 or 9, though.
Though to be honest, Tarl is boring. My recommendation is to find the trilogy Norman has written, one of the books was named Fighting Slave of Gor, and read those three. They're a very decent "quickstart" on Gorean culture, and what happens when people "go native"...which is also the development that awaits Tarl!
Yeah, he got quite a bit less predictable after adopting that new name.
I'm inclined to agree with Edgewise and others that my patience for politics disclaimers in RPGs has long since worn away. I'm inclined to agree with Aaron the Pedantic's excellent thread about them. The gist of it is that people in the Twitter era of politics have lost sight of the difference between overt messaging and political themes. "No Nazis" disclaimers in RPG books are unprofessional and a waste of page space.
Also, I didn't get far enough to discover how the sexuality comes into play, but I literally can't think of anyone who I know that would want to role-play in a fantasy game that prominently features BDSM.
And this goes in my signature, if you don't object!I agree. I am an adult and more than capable of drawing my own conclusions about things. I'm certainly able to differentiate between fiction, purposeful messaging, artistic intent, and the realities of history.
While I have only read a few books so far I expected it to be much worse.
Samuel Delany has a S/M series?I have no issue with either pornography or S/M but the later books are definitely for more niche tastes, just like Samuel Delany's S/M-oriented S&S fantasy series.
Samuel Delany has a S/M series?
And yeah, the above is pretty...tame in comparison to what I've read on ERP forums. I'll abstain from posting the stuff, but remember the infamous description of THAT Poison'd session? I've seen such on said forums (and before you start backing away slowly, I've never been in such a game myself).