Random VTT rant

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Houserule are the bane of VTTs since one of the things they really excel at is automation.
I also think the paid monster manuals for whatever your game system you use is money well spent. It saves a fair amount of time building them.
The problem is at the basic level, the systems I run aren't supported by Roll20 (and probably not by any other VTT either). The house rules are icing on the cake. And even if they get some better support, they are likely to have limited automation support.

The character sheets would work a lot better if there was more flexibility in them. For example, Classic Traveller DOES have a character sheet. You can't add skills. So if you use anything beyond Book 1 chargen, you're out of luck. And I'm not sure whether it supports '77 or '81 (how does it handle Air/Raft, ATV, or Vehicle skill). The RQ (3 I think) charsheet does automatic calculations that are useless for RQ 1/2. But if there was a middling level of customization that didn't require a paid subscription maybe I could make them work.

On the other hand, for RQ, I really like the Google Sheet I use (example: ). Thanks to player Nate for starting it. I did a bit of coding and now have a summary sheet that makes it easy to pull up everyone's skill with any skill I need at the time. Last session I added a POW regain calculator. So I just took some of the automation out of the system.

I also do a lot of dice rolling using physical dice, and allow my players to do so. Honestly it's faster and I have all the NPC notes on scratch paper just like I would for in person gaming.
 
Hmm, I remember needing pens, paper, a way to make copies and a shelf.

I didn’t have to learn how to code in whatever programming language/markup language the VTT uses as well as subscribe for online storage.
I don't know how to code in any whatever programming language/markup language, and wouldn't use a VTT requiring it (or paying for online storage). I stopped using Roll20 for precisely this reason.

That's why I use the one I do. Not knowing any of those things I can create new game widgets (spells, NPCs/monsters, magic items) or utilize "book" game widgets with no more technical skill than necessary to play a CRPG. That's all that's necessary for theater-of-the-mind style with boring accounting fully handled. If I want to bring in the aspects minis always provided to RPG play, the only talent stack I need to add is mapping (or searching for a good enough map).

Yes, the above requires playing with an established ruleset. Any version of D&D is either ready-to-go like this, or, can be achieved by tweaking the setup for 2E. For example, if I wanted to play B/X I'd have to tweak the character classes in 2E for XP progression, spell progression, attack tables, etc., and import some monsters from PDFs. (All this using no more than a Baldur's Gate-style GUI interface). I'd need to use the 1E extension for simple d6 initiative and surprise. And I'm pretty much there.
 
I have no idea how to code and I use Roll20. It works. I get to play with the people I want to play with, and with regularity.
They all work. How much they add or detract depends on how fully you engage with different features.
 
They all work. How much they add or detract depends on how fully you engage with different features.
Not meaning to imply any don’t. Just replying to the notion that you need to code to use Roll20. I’ve gotten a lot of mileage from it and I’m a barely literate Oklahoma hillbilly.
 
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If you use D&D Beyond, then Above VTT is a nice, simple (free) option. It's just a Chrome extension that puts buttons on your D&D Beyond campaign page so you can join as DM or Player. Gives you access to a lot of maps (or you can use your own), simple Fog options, simple Token options, access to D&D Beyond material (character sheets, source material, etc.)

When I'm not running D&D...I haven't decided yet. Probably stick with Foundry, but not bother with 99% of the bells and whistles.
 
I have no idea how to code and I use Roll20. It works. I get to play with the people I want to play with, and with regularity.
The only coding I've done with Roll20 is the occasional Macro to speed the game up.

Of course I don't actually know how to code. I just search for something similar on Google. Copy it, and tweak as necessary using trial and error and what can I see of the internal logic.
 
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Not meaning to imply any don’t. Just replying to the notion that you need to code to use Roll20. I’ve gotten a lot of mileage from it and I’m a barely literate Oklahoma hillbilly.
Yea, I'm a programmer, and I've never done a lick of programming for Roll20. And my games go off just fine... :-) Yea, there may be bells and whistles that could make my game more cool. Who cares, I'm an old school gamer. My games go off just fine...

I would love to have workable character sheets, but I dunno. I also like the Google Sheet I use for RQ characters. For Classic Traveller we just use a Google Doc. I like being able to easily jump around the characters in a separate tab from the VTT tab.
 
The lack of ability to edit character sheets is one of the most infuriating things about VTTs.

The usual response is that it would take too much programming, but I don't see how editable skill lists couldn't be easily implemented.
 
Honestly, if any VTT had an easy, GUI operated character sheet creator, it would probably pop the top of the list for anyone who doesn't run the big popular games that get the most players...

But that is the problem with it. Have a good sheet for the top few games and you've probably covered 70-80% of your playerbase. Making it easy to make sheets for every other game just doesn't add much unfortunately.
 
Astral is the current leader for sheet customization because you can literally upload a PDF of a character sheet and add the rollable commands on top.

The downsides are that there is a small learning curve on those commands (but far less than learning HTML5), and a whole lot of official sheets don’t actually have room for what you need.

There was a VTT on Kickstarter a while back promising robust character sheet tools. If it ever comes to fruition, I’ll jump ship in a heartbeat.
 
There's something to be said for players having a character sheet they can print or just one they can easily reference outside of the computer.

My experience with Roll20 is that while automation can be good, not having to automate is better. Some systems really don't need it - such as the White Wolf mechanics where all you need to do is input the number of dice to be rolled - one single Macro can do every roll in the game.

Roll20 works well for me because I have a massive monitor for working from home so I can separate everything out for quick reference. But for players who have only one monitor or are using a laptop they're often toggling between video call, battlemap character sheet, looking up rules etc all on the same screen. So if you can cut out the character sheet part you can speed up the game (and preferably the looking up rules part as well).

Barbarians of Lemuria is great for online play as you can write your character on a post it and stick it on the side of the screen.

Initiative, even after a year with the turn tracker sometimes tends to go like this:

"Everyone roll initiative"
"Yay 20"
"14"
"Wait, Bob, I can't see your initiative. Were you clicking your token when you rolled?"
"D'oh, I'll do it again"
"Wait I have two initiatives."
"Oh shit, we didn't clear the track from last week"
"Ok let me go through and delete the extra ones. Tom was your initiative, 7 or 12?
"I can't remember. Give me a second I just need to go back to the chat".

Automation can be good, but using a method that avoids having to roll initiative at all is better.

At its worst VTT play can end up something like this:



You have to balance your trade offs and the willingness of your players to engage with the technology.
 
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The lack of ability to edit character sheets is one of the most infuriating things about VTTs.

The usual response is that it would take too much programming, but I don't see how editable skill lists couldn't be easily implemented.
You can edit character sheets in Fantasy Grounds.
 
There's something to be said for players having a character sheet they can print or just one they can easily reference outside of the computer.

My experience with Roll20 is that while automation can be good, not having to automate is better. Some systems really don't need it - such as the White Wolf mechanics where all you need to do is input the number of dice to be rolled - one single Macro can do every roll in the game.

Roll20 works well for me because I have a massive monitor for working from home so I can separate everything out for quick reference. But for players who have only one monitor or are using a laptop they're often toggling between video call, battlemap character sheet, looking up rules etc all on the same screen. So if you can cut out the character sheet part you can speed up the game (and preferably the looking up rules part as well).

Barbarians of Lemuria is great for online play as you can write your character on a post it and stick it on the side of the screen.

Initiative, even after a year with the turn tracker sometimes tends to go like this:

"Everyone roll initiative"
"Yay 20"
"14"
"Wait, Bob, I can't see your initiative. Were you clicking your token when you rolled?"
"D'oh, I'll do it again"
"Wait I have two initiatives."
"Oh shit, we didn't clear the track from last week"
"Ok let me go through and delete the extra ones. Tom was your initiative, 7 or 12?
"I can't remember. Give me a second I just need to go back to the chat".

Automation can be good, but using a method that avoids having to roll initiative at all is better.

At its worst VTT play can end up something like this:



You have to balance your trade offs and the willingness of your players to engage with the technology.

As a rule, the only automation I use for Roll20 is whatever is built into the sheet by people more knowledgeable than me. Everything else, I just roll with, no pun intended.
 
But that is the problem with it. Have a good sheet for the top few games and you've probably covered 70-80% of your playerbase. Making it easy to make sheets for every other game just doesn't add much unfortunately.
What Roll20 is uses HTML organized in a specific way and javascript. Now this is not in the average hobbyist wheelhouse. but among fans of a particular system it is likely that somebody knows HTML and Javascript well enough to make a go of it.

You need a paid account for the time you need to develop it but afterwards you can submit it to Roll20's repository and then it will be available for all.

This is why there are some weird RPGs on the repository list that are supported.

1625020994431.png

It doesn't get much easier than that for what it can do. And to make a automated character for a RPG is basically an exercise in program because of all the character mechanics that are setup like algorithms.

It like my day job developing and supporting metal cutting software for machines. I can only do so much and at a some point the operator needs to know what they are doing with metal cutting in order to make good parts.

Now I think they could make some thing easier like adding support for spreadsheet like tables so you can make what ffilz ffilz uses. As it stands Roll20 only support a single of list of values for characters in it user edit mode without resorting to using HTML.

1625021305881.png
 
What Roll20 is uses HTML organized in a specific way and javascript. Now this is not in the average hobbyist wheelhouse. but among fans of a particular system it is likely that somebody knows HTML and Javascript well enough to make a go of it.

You need a paid account for the time you need to develop it but afterwards you can submit it to Roll20's repository and then it will be available for all.

This is why there are some weird RPGs on the repository list that are supported.

View attachment 32482

It doesn't get much easier than that for what it can do. And to make a automated character for a RPG is basically an exercise in program because of all the character mechanics that are setup like algorithms.

It like my day job developing and supporting metal cutting software for machines. I can only do so much and at a some point the operator needs to know what they are doing with metal cutting in order to make good parts.

Now I think they could make some thing easier like adding support for spreadsheet like tables so you can make what ffilz ffilz uses. As it stands Roll20 only support a single of list of values for characters in it user edit mode without resorting to using HTML.

View attachment 32483

I know how Roll20 does it. It does get much easier than how Roll20 does it. Plenty of programs can set things up without requiring the user to know any programming at all.

Also, yes, there is a large amount of fan made sheets, but I've commonly run into errors in how they are set up, and guess what, if you don't know how to write the code, you can never fix those. I can, so I have fixed the ones I've run into, but it is still no where near the easiest way things could be set up.

Honestly, I find it hilarious that you can't seem to imagine that something could be set up in a way that is easier than writing code, while typing in a WYSIWYG editor on a forum.

As a side note: You probably don't intend to come off this way, but your responses to people constantly come off as if the person doesn't know what they are talking about and need to be educated by you.
 
The main way I've been using Roll20 is like how others have been using it here. For the most part I have a splash screen for the players to look at, and otherwise everything I do is essentially theatre of the mind.

If they're in a big dungeon, I've gone about it before in two different ways. The first one is just to have a dungeon map with Fog of War enabled (dynamic lighting would be nice, but I'm not willing to spend monthly for it so I just stick with the free version), and add dungeon props and all that. Not bad in itself, but sometimes people get too focused on what's on the map, and not on the description of the room.

Another way I've done it, is to have your map on the GM overlay, and then map layer, I just have an image that's a blank texture of parchment, and then I draw the layout of the rooms as the players go into them, so that it's like they're mapping out the room as they go along.

Then when battle happens, I just quickly grab a background, some terrain pieces, and whatever is being used for character tokens (sometimes I'll go with thematic ones; for my Anglo-Saxon campaign I've just been using Devin Night's Viking packs), others I'll just make my own using this; http://rolladvantage.com/tokenstamp/

I could use Photoshop to make them too, but I'm lazy and that website does a really good job at making fast and easy tokens. You literally just drop a picture in that you want to use, resize the picture to how you want it to display on the token, change the border colour/style if you so choose, and then save the PNG.
 
I didn't know about that site - thank you! You've shaved some time off my prep, right there.
 
Foundry VTT (with a plugin IIRC) allows you to upload form-fillable PDF sheets for character sheets and will link field names (if you name them correctly) to in-game variables. I'm still learning its ins and outs, but I like it quite a bit. The fact that players can connect with a browser is another major selling point. The fact that I have a 1gig up/down fiber connection means I don't have to pay for off-site hosting. So maybe worth a punt for those who aren't all that satisfied with Roll20's file-size limitations and ability to have the integrated sheet they want for more niche systems.
 
Foundry VTT (with a plugin IIRC) allows you to upload form-fillable PDF sheets for character sheets and will link field names (if you name them correctly) to in-game variables. I'm still learning its ins and outs, but I like it quite a bit. The fact that players can connect with a browser is another major selling point. The fact that I have a 1gig up/down fiber connection means I don't have to pay for off-site hosting. So maybe worth a punt for those who aren't all that satisfied with Roll20's file-size limitations and ability to have the integrated sheet they want for more niche systems.
Nice! The only reasons I haven’t seriously tried Foundry is a) I don’t know if I would like it and don’t want to buy just to try, b) I have slow ass internet, and c) someone said something about “port forwarding” and my barely literate computer brain seized up.
 
Nice! The only reasons I haven’t seriously tried Foundry is a) I don’t know if I would like it and don’t want to buy just to try, b) I have slow ass internet, and c) someone said something about “port forwarding” and my barely literate computer brain seized up.
Slow internet could definitely be a hurdle, particularly if you are fond of sharing big image files, or use large, detailed maps. As for port-forwarding, it can be a pain if you aren't comfortable with tinkering with your router (assuming you have one), but most modern consumer grade networking hardware has a pretty forgiving interface and lots of tutorials with pictures, etc.

In any case, the more bells and whistles I've tried to use in a VTT, the more the game feels like a very slow moving CRPG and the less and less it actually feels like a TTRPG session; less is definitely more most of the time. Players that demand more, should be forced to use these platforms from behind the screen and then get back to me about wanting dynamic lighting, shadows, music, maps for everything, and all of the rest. Luckily the people I play with aren't like that.
 
I haven't tried Foundry, but that sounds MUCH nicer. Might check it out if I run an online game in the future.
 
In any case, the more bells and whistles I've tried to use in a VTT, the more the game feels like a very slow moving CRPG and the less and less it actually feels like a TTRPG session; less is definitely more most of the time. Players that demand more, should be forced to use these platforms from behind the screen and then get back to me about wanting dynamic lighting, shadows, music, maps for everything, and all of the rest. Luckily the people I play with aren't like that.

Music wise, I just have a spotify playlist with thematic instrumental music, and if they want to listen they can listen along with Discord (what we use for our voice chat), and if not, then they don't need to.

I do use Roll20's jukebox feature, but I use that for ambient sounds (like a shore, or a storm, etc), and sound effects (like lightning or bird sounds).
 
Music wise, I just have a spotify playlist with thematic instrumental music, and if they want to listen they can listen along with Discord (what we use for our voice chat), and if not, then they don't need to.

I do use Roll20's jukebox feature, but I use that for ambient sounds (like a shore, or a storm, etc), and sound effects (like lightning or bird sounds).
I'm not disparaging using music, effects, or LOS -- if it works for you, then bon chance -- what I guess I was responding to was the OPs feeling that players sort of expect all of these widgets to be turned on, without maybe understanding just how much overhead they can add to prep time (and for me they actively detract from my enjoyment).
 
I played around a bit back in the 90s with sound effects. It was pretty much a disaster, the effort to cue up sounds as we played was a pain. Of course it would be a bit easier with digital music files rather than CDs, but still, to figure out which sound is most useful. We did have background music for our gaming in the 90s, one of the players would load up my CD changer. But there was no attempt at thematic music. These days I feel like background music would actually be distracting.
 
I'm not disparaging using music, effects, or LOS -- if it works for you, then bon chance -- what I guess I was responding to was the OPs feeling that players sort of expect all of these widgets to be turned on, without maybe understanding just how much overhead they can add to prep time (and for me they actively detract from my enjoyment).
Actually, I use music (before the game gets started, sort of to set the mood, and when closing) and sound effects and enjoy doing it. I initially found it cumbersome to set off different effects by having to click on the Roll 20 jukebox and then click back over to chat to narrate. But now I've figured out that you can just pop out the jukebox and I can basically just have it there ready to go (I hope). Yeah I know, one more window to keep track of, but thankfully I have two monitors.

I'm an instructor and I use music before my classes to get students' attention all the time, so I'm pretty used to it.
 
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I might be a hard one to judge; the VTT I use (Maptool) can have some associated automation (if you do it yourself or have someone else's template) but I primarily just use it to have a way to display a map and move tokens around. The most sophisticated function on it I use is fog-of-war, and that in a fairly simple way. In combination with either Skype or Discord, that's all I've found a need for.
 
Simple, ease of use is everything. If it is not easy a tutorial that covers all the bases is essential.
I'd need at a minimum though
(1) able to import my own tokens (easily) and maps (easily) and overlay a "grid" to help players;
(2) able to hid parts of the map and reveal them as a GM when I wish, OK if need to manually do this BUT the tool needs to be easy and allow (1) me to draw a shape that can be revealed, and (2) bonus if has a regular shape draw tool, AND (3) a preview so I can see what I am revealing before hit accept and reveal it.

That is all I need as it is simply a representation for the table, all the rules and record keeping can be handled remotely.

After that..in order of preference
(1) an agnostic dice roller (don't make it so focused anything besides a d20 game requires jumping through hoops)...this seems easy to do as is common.
(2) hexagonal grid and bonus for offset square grid
(3) easy way to lock player movement so they can't move tokens until GM unlocks
(4) private message feature so can give certain players info the others do not know
(5) quasi interactive and easy to set up of fog of war maps. I have never been able to get fog of war or line of sight to work even partially without hours and hours of effort.
By quasi interactive just mean have a layer with some simple types, like wall and window/door. You can put down your base map and then you enter a mode where you select "wall" and draw lines and since you map is showing beneath you can easily put in where the light blocking/wall are. This would work in conjunction with the reveal tool so if you had a standard circle shape reveal it would be stopped by walls.

Doors can be handled two ways. They could just be walls until the GM uses and "erase" tool on the fog of way level (which would have to be able to easily work with in game) or a special type in the fog of war level you can toggle on and off. I vastly prefer the first way especially if can add "walls" and also shapes (like pillars) in game. This way if a barrier is dropped the GM can add in in game a blocking wall, or if a whole is blown through a wall it can be done.

No idea how complicated this is, imagine would have to have some tag on a token to say trace rays from here so shadows can be created, or happy to have a manual GM tool that allows you to block/create a shadow just by drawing.

(6) Character sheets, this does not need to be interactive with the VTT, just would be nice to have a space for them and ability to view them, and for the GM all of them in perhaps a separate screen. Big bonus if could mark them up to reflect HP loss etc.

(7) Low down the list is an ability to import my own rules system, could be simple as just space under PC and other tokens for 3+ stats, I'd say 3-6 think of how one might lay out numbers on a war game counter. For VTT that look to import D&D rules, I imagine this could be done just by opening up to the GM/players the tool that does this.


Other things
(8) sound or voice, only include it if it doesn't muck up how smoothly things run, realize not everyone has a great connection. We run teams or some such in the background anyway to see and hear each other.
(9) Built in map maker, map program. That is asking for a lot, like holy grail, but would pay for it as an option/add on.

I would happily pay well for a VTT that makes my life easier. That is I can take the scans I have of maps and put them up in minutes and I can hand do a fog of war on the map in less than half an hour, or just able to reveal in game as say above.

I'd pay $40-60 just for that, not as a subscription, I hate subscription. If I am going to pay a subscription it has to be for a fixed time and I pay up front, does not auto-renew; because that requires my credit card number be stored somewhere and I have to remember, anything about this that doesn't save me time costs me.

I'd pay $100+ the more other features are included, and be happy if these features were structure so you pay more for more features.
I'd happily pay the developer a $100+ to incorporate my rule system and/or interactive character sheets that work for my game.

In all, if had (1) to (7) above this is well worth $1000 a year to me, I'm not alone on this. Plenty of us older players with more income than time and where travel is usually the impediment to getting together for a game. [You get 50 people like me and could do well on this : ), I can't imagine that would be hard to find with the internet...has to be more than a few of us for a decent in shape white box OD&D to go for over $150]

I could also see paying for a map where the developer has done all the fog of war work, and certainly if they offered this as a service. Is end you a map, you do fog of war for me and pay the developer.

Now if a developer could get a license to do a map, say Caverns of Thracia (just bare bones, it has the maps and the well done fog of war layer, no need for anything else, none of the room descriptions as people have those already or buy them from the licensor) could see paying $50 for that package. Sure you would likely lose money if just one person bought this, but not if 10 or 20 did I believe, the developer could also structure some of this to pay a royalty to lower up front cost...it can be a win-win driving sales for both licensor and licensee.

Or you could team with someone who makes great maps (e.g. I love Dyson Logos's work). Developer provides just map (should have GM version with rooms numbers, traps etc. and player version) and fog of war. Room descriptions not included, and for a map like Dyson's here is where you might sell or help people sell or put up for free their descriptions. One map could have 10 different stockings, for several different systems.
I consider this synergistic with the VTT business model.

I see a lot of VTT business models trying more to be the game than the table top....my personal view is that is the wrong way to go or at least start.

I'll be honest, I don't see the 5e fan base as a good customer base in that they will be highly demanding, there is a lot of competition, Hasbro doesn't allow you to port everything (so you in table rules will never be complete, just assuming they let you port anything for free) and they have low disposable income for this sort of thing. The 5e fan base may be many but is it worth it in overhead (time and headaches) and ease of running your business?

Would you rather have 500 people paying you $100 a year with all the cost of managing so many or 50 people paying you $1000 a year where you are more likely to make all your customers happy and even build personal rapport?

Also if you wanted to double your business at the 500 customer $100 a year model that is 500 people, the other model is 50 people and all it takes is each of your 50 customers, which you can likely keep happy, to recommend you to one of their buddy's. Whom I suspect know a guy who used to play but he has not time to drive or make maps even for a VTT, but after COVID he is very comfortable with remote meetings.

Also, if you do get successful you are much more likely to retain 50 customers than those of your 500 because you have a personal rapport with the 50, they trust you. The 500, as soon as a big company comes in and can do what you do cheaper, many will jump ship.

Last but not least...I have a feeling the majority of the 5e fan base will start to balk above $40 a year, so a 1000 people to gross $10K less a year.

I really want someone to build the above, can you tell :smile:
 
As to Roll20 and others, have not found one that is easy to use out of the box for anything but putting up a basic map. That can be had for free so go with TablePlop on that.

I tried only a few times to set up fog of war on an imported map in Roll20, spent hours and never got a complete or fully functional map. The map drawing portion of any VTT I tried is awful and slow and the maps look like a**.
 
I tried only a few times to set up fog of war on an imported map in Roll20, spent hours and never got a complete or fully functional map. The map drawing portion of any VTT I tried is awful and slow and the maps look like a**.
Are you sure you are talking about Fog of War or Dynamic Lighting? Fog of War is pretty straight forward in nearly all of the VTT I played. You enable it, the map goes dark for the players, the referee see the map with a gray overlay. Then you use a set of tools like drawing tools to reveal or hide areas. The only issue I run into that there generally a rectangular hide and reveal tool. But there only a polygon reveal to show odd shaped area.

Now Dynamic Lighting is different and so far require one to goto a different layer and draw the outline of the map. And it gets tricky to stuff like the below right. Pretty much a pain the ass regardless of the VTT. I think in the long run they will figure how to train a pattern recognition neural net to do this stuff automatically.

1625161874583.png
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Are you sure you are talking about Fog of War or Dynamic Lighting? Fog of War is pretty straight forward in nearly all of the VTT I played. You enable it, the map goes dark for the players, the referee see the map with a gray overlay. Then you use a set of tools like drawing tools to reveal or hide areas. The only issue I run into that there generally a rectangular hide and reveal tool. But there only a polygon reveal to show odd shaped area.

Now Dynamic Lighting is different and so far require one to goto a different layer and draw the outline of the map. And it gets tricky to stuff like the below right. Pretty much a pain the ass regardless of the VTT. I think in the long run they will figure how to train a pattern recognition neural net to do this stuff automatically.
You're right, it is dynamic lighting. The fog of war had the rectangle issue.

I see a few more tools never tried mentioned so may try them.

I get discouraged as these things consume more time than they are worth for me, my time is far more precious than the cost. So more than a bit of disgruntled "consumer."

I know I am not the market, free doesn't mean squat to me, $20, $100, no difference. If it saves me an hour a week it is worth a $1000 a year to me, and a few others I know. If it doesn't, better to drive or do something else. Perhaps at some point will reach out to some developers directly, one is a "colleague" of a friend, and just get some custom stuff done.

My extended rant here...perhaps there is a designer thinking the way I am...yes there are people who want this, we may not be many but our value proposition is very different than what many VTT products seem to be aiming for.
 
I get discouraged as these things consume more time than they are worth for me, my time is far more precious than the cost. So more than a bit of disgruntled "consumer."

I know I am not the market, free doesn't mean squat to me, $20, $100, no difference. If it saves me an hour a week it is worth a $1000 a year to me, and a few others I know. If it doesn't, better to drive or do something else. Perhaps at some point will reach out to some developers directly, one is a "colleague" of a friend, and just get some custom stuff done.
I agree with your sentiment. I would rather throw money at a problem if it saves me time because my time is more valuable. Setting up VTT the way I desire seems to be a huge time sink and I would rather just pay more $$ and save me the time. Roill20 at least seems to have been designed for users with a ton of free time.
 
I agree with your sentiment. I would rather throw money at a problem if it saves me time because my time is more valuable. Setting up VTT the way I desire seems to be a huge time sink and I would rather just pay more $$ and save me the time. Roill20 at least seems to have been designed for users with a ton of free time.
Can we do like a reverse Kickstarter, if you build it we will buy? And can we call it Kickbutter?

The amount of time Roll20 seems to take me, I wonder if it would take less time to just to learn programming and do it myself :smile: I was once a wiz at Fortran and decent at assembly language when had to use it.
 
My extended rant here...perhaps there is a designer thinking the way I am...yes there are people who want this, we may not be many but our value proposition is very different than what many VTT products seem to be aiming for.
I think the fundamental issue is that as a product niche it is still young and there isn't that much money in it. So progress is slow. But on the bright side progress will happen. Likely to occur when some related technology matures for other reasons to make it cheap enough for a VTT company to do. So far that been literally been the history of VTTs. Taking tools developed for other industries and repurposing them for tabletop roleplaying. Starting with a text chat bolted to a internet connected whiteboard along with a few RPG utilities like a dice roller.

Something like Roll20 was not possible in 2004 when Fantasy Grounds was introduced. Which is why Fantasy Grounds was a dedicated client. Also server hosted wasn't quite a thing then. Now it can be had for pennies as a result of virtual servers maturing. HTML5 was introduced in 2008, tools matured then around 2010 I started to see serious attempt making web based VTTs. Roll20 was launched in 2012.

There are two technologies potentially impacting VTTs. One is pattern recognition neural networks, for the application of recognizing character sheets and maps.

The other, I am not sure of it exact name. But what it does is allow you to run PC Games over the internet as if it was your own computer. Basically a server spools up a PC with a very nice graphic cards and streams the video to you, and in turn your client or web browser sends back your keyboard, mouse, or joystick. It application to VTT is that VTT itself is running on a virtual PC, and what you see is the video stream back. This allow processor intensive stuff like Dynamic Lighting to be handled way faster.
 
The amount of time Roll20 seems to take me, I wonder if it would take less time to just to learn programming and do it myself :smile: I was once a wiz at Fortran and decent at assembly language when had to use it.
Speaking as a programmer who been working as a programmer since the late 80s on motion control software. It is a rabbit hole.

But overall it is way easier, however you would be better off learning HTML5, Javascript, and a framework. Stuff like VOIP, Video, Whiteboards are all out there as components and in most cases with the source code available. The other way is with C#, .NET Framework, and one of the gaming frameworks out there like Unity.
 
You're right, it is dynamic lighting. The fog of war had the rectangle issue.

I see a few more tools never tried mentioned so may try them.

I get discouraged as these things consume more time than they are worth for me, my time is far more precious than the cost. So more than a bit of disgruntled "consumer."

I know I am not the market, free doesn't mean squat to me, $20, $100, no difference. If it saves me an hour a week it is worth a $1000 a year to me, and a few others I know. If it doesn't, better to drive or do something else. Perhaps at some point will reach out to some developers directly, one is a "colleague" of a friend, and just get some custom stuff done.

My extended rant here...perhaps there is a designer thinking the way I am...yes there are people who want this, we may not be many but our value proposition is very different than what many VTT products seem to be aiming for.
Roll20's fog of war has a relatively easy to use polygon reveal and like your original requirements, it lets you preview before applying, and it has ctrl-z undo segments that can back up all the way to the beginning. Now that I've used it a bit, I can unfog an irregular shape almost instantly, and I've even been doing LOS reveals and they don't take that much time (partly exploring outside, so long sight lines not constrained to a room).

I have fit maps to the grid, that's somewhat of a pain, but not horrible for a map that will be used for many sessions.

I upload my own tokens and art all the time. They have a Google Search built in that I have used a few times.

If I do rolls in system, I just do /r 1d100 or whatever in the chat.

I sometimes draw my own maps.

I don't use much else because the above is more than I would do in person (fog of war isn't very easy to do in person...).
 
robertsconley robertsconley I'm joking about programming it myself, but what I am after is pretty simple with today's tools. Maybe too simple.
It is more on the GUI user expereince side that things are lacking for me.

I don't see it as a technical issue, more business model issue. Boutique market vs mass market. I'm not certain how much of what is put there has any business model around it, just people who love RPGs making tools for RPGs.

My impression, just from the nature of the existing tools, is the developers are heavy into IT knowledge so have a design blind spot about what is easy and hard for those who do not, and also perhaps a generational thing where fiddling with a program for hours to understand how to use is how one grew up (can say my kids know all sorts of phone and other functionality just because they spend time messing around with it). This leads me to believe there is a focus on functionality, complexity, when ease of use may give you more bang for you buck....if you want bucks.

Now I don't want to spend more time ranting about it, after all the thread title did seem to invite rants, than I'd spend on the VTT themselves.

My impression though is the technical tools exist for what looking for, but the product looking for fills a market that is different than being pursued. I have no doubt in time will see what hope for because if I can keep it together when retire in 10 years or so will work to get the product made, even if just for me. Of course by that time all test will have to be in 36 pt font. :smile:
 
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