The Pub: Five Years On and What I’m Thinking…

Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com

Endless Flight

I have the power!
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
15,294
Reaction score
41,630
I was thinking a couple days ago that the Pub will be five years old in April. That’s like fifty years in internet time. I’ve seen sites crash and burn in six months, hell, I’ve been involved with some! To me, it’s absolutely amazing what this place has become. I thought I might get like twenty five people to show up. We are closing in on 2,000 registrations and hundreds of active members. Truly mind-blowing and I’ve had a few successes before.

As my wife and I were driving around doing some shopping today, I told her that I was thinking of perhaps expanding the Pub. That you never just want to sit on something and have it get stale. She asked me how I would do that and I said maybe I’ll make the Pub an actual source for RPG news and reviews as well as keeping in place this awesome community we have. I said there is no one place on the internet like that, as other sites only cater to certain kinds of RPGs (d20, OSR, etc). There’s no Amazon for RPG news. Some places outright ban discussion of certain games. So there’s opportunity there. She thought it sounded like a good idea and she has no skin in this game. She just wants me to do well with my hobby.

I haven’t quite got the particulars down about the technicalities of it all, but I have considered using Wordpress as a base and go from there. I do have some experience with it which definitely helps. I have also considered paying folks to write short reviews and articles that would be posted on a weekly basis. I wouldn’t want to go halfway on this and fail. I would need content. The forum itself would not change at all.

I want to see the Pub grow and not stagnate and I think this is one of the best ways to move forward in the age of social media, not that I love it. We might be able to reach more younger people as well, which is always great.

Comments, suggestions, feedback?
 
I think some form of content is probably a good idea. I once floated the idea of a magazine but found the concept too expansive in the wide world of the web. I think you need some kind of focus these days. I did post a bunch of comics last year. My creativity tends to be too erratic for regular features. Also, my time, well, let's just say Covid gave me the first time off in the summer I've had in over thirty years.

But I'm afraid hating geese and loving SWO and magnificent food themed thread derailments have probably taken us as far as they can.

Still, thanks for the five years, it's been fun so far and I'm looking forward to any growth or expansion.
 
Well, let's start with the 800lb gorilla in the room - politics. The Pub gets bigger, people are going to notice it more and more - the kind of people that think "no Politics" is the literal equivalent of declaring yourself an Absolute Evildoer, the kind the world would be better off without. People might contact your employment, harass your family, swat you, etc.

Certain companies push their views through games, we all know this. Sometimes the politics behind the game is the whole reason for it's existence. You cover the game, people think you're selling out on No Politics and you go on a shitlist. You don't cover the game because of No Politics, you're a heretic and you go on a hitlist.

The only way to win is not to play. A News site will have to play.
 
I have been waiting to ask a borderline politics question in this forum. It's definitely a game-focused question. Still, I've resisted, even though I feel it's legitimate. Mostly because I'm new here.

And I'm hypersensitive about being banned because it's happened twice at another forum that's...also hypersensitive.

And in really not interested in asking my question on a forum primarily aligned with reactionaries because I'm likely to get a reactionary response.

There has to be a place in the web where you can have a measured, rational discussion. Maturity. Acceptance with disagreement.

I mean, I can have those discussions IRL. But people know me IRL. That's the difference. They know when I say something dumb/silly, it's just that. No malice, maybe immediate regret, or an interest in learning what I did wrong and trying to fix it.

Liabilities aside, maybe a cell-type phone-chain system, where you have to give up your personal info and be validated by x number of people who would be willing to get kicked off the site for you. LOL Otherwise members are on double secret probation by default.

That might make otherwise volatile discussions possible between such "open" members.
 
Kudos on the 5 years. It is a remarkable achievement. I wouldn't have a clue about how to create a thriving online community like The Pub so I won't offer any advice other than trust your instincts and do whatever makes you happy with The Pub. CRKrueger points at some of the very real risks with expansion, but then all internet communites live on borrowed time anyway.
 
I like the idea of RPGPub expanding to include news, reviews, etc

The only issues will be if our 'loose vibe' here changes too much, and if real-world politics rear its very ugly head.
It all feels very 'local' here compared to places like TBP, and I wouldn't want that to change too much.
Also I wouldn't want to see the Pub beholden to sponsorship companies, we are definately a neutral ground here for all

I think these are realistic challenges we may possibly encounter, but if we can push thru these, then I'm cool with some expansion
I think it's great to be looking forward, just as long as we are watching where we are stepping :thumbsup: :smile:
 
Last edited:
At the risk of sounding tautological, The Pub is what it is because of what it is. That is to say I think there is a feedback loop at work keeping folks who take themselves too seriously out because it's obvious they won't get taken seriously here. Try not to break that.

I'd rather have people diss The Pub as being lightweight or too silly and 'no politics is a political statement' than encourage folks who take themselves too seriously to bring old agendas here. Most of the shitfights that actually take place here have their origins in decades old flame wars that started elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
If you want to go the route of paying folks to write content, you'll need money. Sort your options for asking contributions first. I wouldn't mind paying a few bucks/year but definitely keep the site free for those who can't afford it.
 
Never mind the politics haters (no offense CRKrueger CRKrueger ). I agree that with additional exposure, and especially with more news coverage, that a certain amount of exposure to the dreaded P word is inevitable, but it can also be pretty safely contained to the actual coverage in question and need not contaminate the entire site. That said, I think the no-politics agenda has been very good for the overall feel of this wonderful place, and I wouldn't change that substantially unless at dire need. Is there a way to grow and stay classy here? IDK.
 
I have been waiting to ask a borderline politics question in this forum. It's definitely a game-focused question. Still, I've resisted, even though I feel it's legitimate. Mostly because I'm new here.

And I'm hypersensitive about being banned because it's happened twice at another forum that's...also hypersensitive.

And in really not interested in asking my question on a forum primarily aligned with reactionaries because I'm likely to get a reactionary response.

There has to be a place in the web where you can have a measured, rational discussion. Maturity. Acceptance with disagreement.

I mean, I can have those discussions IRL. But people know me IRL. That's the difference. They know when I say something dumb/silly, it's just that. No malice, maybe immediate regret, or an interest in learning what I did wrong and trying to fix it.

Liabilities aside, maybe a cell-type phone-chain system, where you have to give up your personal info and be validated by x number of people who would be willing to get kicked off the site for you. LOL Otherwise members are on double secret probation by default.

That might make otherwise volatile discussions possible between such "open" members.
Remember that this is probably one of the most chill forums around, and the moderation's ultimate goal is keeping it that way. Providing you're not spouting nazi rhetoric or running a long-term harassment campaign against the admins, you're gonna be fine, the worst you'll get is the thread locked and a message saying something's too far. No biggie. The bar for actually getting sanctioned is high enough that you have to work to hit it; we don't do making folk walk on eggshells here.

But here's the thing to bear in mind: you can have calm and measured discussions about lots of things. So many things. What you can't have is a calm and measured discussion about whether a particular group deserves to be treated with basic decency, because:

1. While it might be theoretical for some people involved, for others it's literally their life, and being told they don't deserve to be treated with basic decency is somewhat personal to them. It's not reasonable to expect folk to dispassionately have to argue for their own existence.
2. There are very likely people in that group present, and it's very likely that they've had to have these discussions in real life with people who were actively hostile to them. This being a place where people hang out for fun, they may not be happy to have their IRL issues dragged in here.
2a. Folk who have to accept the presence of people hostile to them in this shared space? They're already implicitly doing acceptance with disagreement. It's kinda rude to insist they explicitly do the thing too.
3. Like you say, people know you IRL, but not here; a lot of nuance is lost. There's a lot of history of unpleasant folks pretending bonhomie or innocence as a shield to do awful things and act in bad faith; and it sucks that people have pre-emptively burnt those bridges for you, but such is the internet. We can work to make it better but we've got to accept that today it sucks.

So like, we can have a calm and polite discussion about which eye colour is the best. We can't have a calm and polite discussion about whether people with green-and-brown eyes should be shot, because I have green-and-brown eyes.
 
I have been waiting to ask a borderline politics question in this forum. It's definitely a game-focused question. Still, I've resisted, even though I feel it's legitimate. Mostly because I'm new here..
I think I can safely speak for all of the mods that if anyone is in this situation they're very welcome to PM one of us and ask if it's ok to post.

(If it's complex, we might kick it backstage for discussion, but you will get an answer).
 
Never mind the politics haters (no offense CRKrueger CRKrueger ). I agree that with additional exposure, and especially with more news coverage, that a certain amount of exposure to the dreaded P word is inevitable, but it can also be pretty safely contained to the actual coverage in question and need not contaminate the entire site. That said, I think the no-politics agenda has been very good for the overall feel of this wonderful place, and I wouldn't change that substantially unless at dire need. Is there a way to grow and stay classy here? IDK.
But that's the age-old problem, define "politics".

I think all of us have lists of issues that we'd consider "political, worthy of debate" and which we would consider "non-political, settled issues", the arguments come in when these lists conflict.

I don't think a completely unbiased and uncritical site has any value. I may as well just read press releases. I want somewhere with a strong editorial voice, so I can get a proper feel for the place and follow or ignore them and consider their output accordingly.

This place is the best place. :thumbsup:
Fuck yeah.
 
If you want to go the route of paying folks to write content, you'll need money. Sort your options for asking contributions first. I wouldn't mind paying a few bucks/year but definitely keep the site free for those who can't afford it.
The Pub will always be free. It’s only through our kind donors and patrons that I am able to consider doing things like this.
 
Well, let's start with the 800lb gorilla in the room - politics. The Pub gets bigger, people are going to notice it more and more - the kind of people that think "no Politics" is the literal equivalent of declaring yourself an Absolute Evildoer, the kind the world would be better off without. People might contact your employment, harass your family, swat you, etc.

Certain companies push their views through games, we all know this. Sometimes the politics behind the game is the whole reason for it's existence. You cover the game, people think you're selling out on No Politics and you go on a shitlist. You don't cover the game because of No Politics, you're a heretic and you go on a hitlist.

The only way to win is not to play. A News site will have to play.
I do see the concern here, Although people ringing employers is pretty rare tbh, let alone SWATing. Twitterstorms, a bit more common. And while there's a political blacklist up on the Site I've not heard of any actual consequences for the people on it.

You also have the issue that there are some RPG figures who are controversial for political reasons and there are people who will call for them to not be mentioned because of that. From opposite ends of the spectrum, you're going to get that with Pundit and Olivia Hill.

I think the only real way round this is for the publisher (Endless in this case) to decide for themselves on a case by case basis and ignore anyone trying to argue against that.
I don't think a completely unbiased and uncritical site has any value. I may as well just read press releases. I want somewhere with a strong editorial voice, so I can get a proper feel for the place and follow or ignore them and consider their output accordingly.
A strong editorial voice and avoiding politics isn't necessarily a contradiction. They might touch on it occasionally, but the frightful hipsters of Pitchfork are largely apolitical and they definitely have a recognisable voice.
I was thinking a couple days ago that the Pub will be five years old in April. That’s like fifty years in internet time. I’ve seen sites crash and burn in six months, hell, I’ve been involved with some! To me, it’s absolutely amazing what this place has become. I thought I might get like twenty five people to show up. We are closing in on 2,000 registrations and hundreds of active members. Truly mind-blowing and I’ve had a few successes before.

As my wife and I were driving around doing some shopping today, I told her that I was thinking of perhaps expanding the Pub. That you never just want to sit on something and have it get stale. She asked me how I would do that and I said maybe I’ll make the Pub an actual source for RPG news and reviews as well as keeping in place this awesome community we have. I said there is no one place on the internet like that, as other sites only cater to certain kinds of RPGs (d20, OSR, etc). There’s no Amazon for RPG news. Some places outright ban discussion of certain games. So there’s opportunity there. She thought it sounded like a good idea and she has no skin in this game. She just wants me to do well with my hobby.

I haven’t quite got the particulars down about the technicalities of it all, but I have considered using Wordpress as a base and go from there. I do have some experience with it which definitely helps. I have also considered paying folks to write short reviews and articles that would be posted on a weekly basis. I wouldn’t want to go halfway on this and fail. I would need content. The forum itself would not change at all.

I want to see the Pub grow and not stagnate and I think this is one of the best ways to move forward in the age of social media, not that I love it. We might be able to reach more younger people as well, which is always great.

Comments, suggestions, feedback?

Sounds like a really good idea in general.

I'd go for a magazine approach, with indepth articles, rather than a news site approach. I was the news editor for the music site DrunkenWerewolf and it's a hell of a lot of work. You need at least five news stories a week, scheduled to go up Monday to Friday. (And that's the bare minimum; we were doing 2 stories a day at one point). Even if you're mostly writing up press releases, it's very time consuming.

As one of the more prolific reviewers on here, I'd obviously not turn money down but you're going to need a revenue stream sorted before that's a serious possibility.

As well as writers, you're going to need a content editor. Especially if you're encouraging people new to writing to get involved, which I think would be a good thing.

*Somebody* would probably need to handle social media promo. You need a Twitter account at the very least. That would need to be someone highly resistant to getting into arguments online and able to keep it all very professional. (So the exact opposite of me).
 
EN World isn't a bad comparison I suppose for what it look like to have a steady group of paid content generators. Not that anyone wants to just mimic EW, but ypu know what I mean.
 
I don't think legitimate RPG news is an overstep (Talking about such and such acquires a license for X IP, or sharing a new game announcement.) Nor do I have issues with reviews so long as they are kept to talking points about the game. I'm worried we'd reflect other forums a bit too much if we take a step to far in certain directions though as well I want to focus that this site is for gamers and about games. I wouldn't mind hosting for example if he were willing Dan Davenport's Q&A materials or his few reviews. Though he has a blog for that.

Although This has some solid points:
Remember that this is probably one of the most chill forums around, and the moderation's ultimate goal is keeping it that way. Providing you're not spouting nazi rhetoric or running a long-term harassment campaign against the admins, you're gonna be fine, the worst you'll get is the thread locked and a message saying something's too far. No biggie. The bar for actually getting sanctioned is high enough that you have to work to hit it; we don't do making folk walk on eggshells here.

But here's the thing to bear in mind: you can have calm and measured discussions about lots of things. So many things. What you can't have is a calm and measured discussion about whether a particular group deserves to be treated with basic decency, because:

1. While it might be theoretical for some people involved, for others it's literally their life, and being told they don't deserve to be treated with basic decency is somewhat personal to them. It's not reasonable to expect folk to dispassionately have to argue for their own existence.
2. There are very likely people in that group present, and it's very likely that they've had to have these discussions in real life with people who were actively hostile to them. This being a place where people hang out for fun, they may not be happy to have their IRL issues dragged in here.
2a. Folk who have to accept the presence of people hostile to them in this shared space? They're already implicitly doing acceptance with disagreement. It's kinda rude to insist they explicitly do the thing too.
3. Like you say, people know you IRL, but not here; a lot of nuance is lost. There's a lot of history of unpleasant folks pretending bonhomie or innocence as a shield to do awful things and act in bad faith; and it sucks that people have pre-emptively burnt those bridges for you, but such is the internet. We can work to make it better but we've got to accept that today it sucks.

So like, we can have a calm and polite discussion about which eye colour is the best. We can't have a calm and polite discussion about whether people with green-and-brown eyes should be shot, because I have green-and-brown eyes.
 
Oh, something else that would probably need working out is a) policy on review copies and b) policy on pubbers reviewing pubber products.

On the latter, while people shouldn't be reviewing their own work, I think some crossover is inevitable in a market this small.
 
Well, let's start with the 800lb gorilla in the room - politics. The Pub gets bigger, people are going to notice it more and more - the kind of people that think "no Politics" is the literal equivalent of declaring yourself an Absolute Evildoer, the kind the world would be better off without. People might contact your employment, harass your family, swat you, etc.

Certain companies push their views through games, we all know this. Sometimes the politics behind the game is the whole reason for it's existence. You cover the game, people think you're selling out on No Politics and you go on a shitlist. You don't cover the game because of No Politics, you're a heretic and you go on a hitlist.

The only way to win is not to play. A News site will have to play.
I don't think so, just post the news not the views. If a new product comes out, announce it without commentary on the designer's Superman underoos.

I've always argued that "no politics" is too vague and nebulous. But don't worry about the shit list, that's just more publicity. Let 'em whine.

Perhaps we should start our own "up wing" party. Ask them about their position on swo, and geese, and whether ascending armour class is keeping bilibopop down. Canada has the Rhino party which has a solid political platform in their leader's basement. We could have absurdist flame wars. Treat the fanatics like that and they'll probably leave. Uptight, angry people hate being laughed at.
 
Oh, something else that would probably need working out is a) policy on review copies and b) policy on pubbers reviewing pubber products.

On the latter, while people shouldn't be reviewing their own work, I think some crossover is inevitable in a market this small.
I should create a sock puppet to give my games horrible reviews. :grin:
 
I absolutely should not handle Twitter. We need someone who never gets into fights.

Poor Tommy. :sad:
I really don't bother with Facebook or Twitter unless I need it for something else like a forum hosted on facebook. I had to set a twitter account up for the first time just the other day to look at an artwork site called skeb. Here at The Pub we have our unsung MVPs Tulpa Girl Tulpa Girl and Jamfke Jamfke working tirelessly to curate the most valuable content mainstream social media has to offer. Whatever it is we're paying them, we should double it.
 
Last edited:
I've found the ceiling for "in-setting" politics to be quite high here on the Pub. I'm almost getting the impression some actually do understand the difference between fiction and reality :shock:

I had my thread on the Weimar republic (which I didn't start until I had an okay from the staff) about a year ago. I might resurrect that one at some point. Now, the Weimar republic did end 89 years ago, but some of the current political issues are the same as back then. That thread worked quite well, as far as I can recollect. Still, I haven't looked at it for a year now.

Some games do have a strong political agenda. A discussion about them isn't really becoming political until people are talking about if the game has the correct opinion or not. Personally, I like politics in my gaming, but I tend to piss in all directions, including on the opinions I agree with.

Of course, the larger a site becomes, the bigger the risk that some will attempt to talk politics disguised as an RPG discussion.

And there is the topic Ladybird Ladybird mentioned. Some will argue that people of born with X (where X may vary) shouldn't be allowed to even mention they exist, because their mere existence is against their politics, and thus even mentioning it should fall under a political ban. I believe there are decent ways to formulate a general stance that would handle most of it, but no perfect one.
 
Do what makes you happy. My only concern is the main selling point for me is the no politics thing which gets harder the more you try to expand and the faster you expand. I've worked at high growth companies and culture takes time. Almost every time someone arrives at a place they bring the last place with them. It takes time to remove that and time for them to adjust to the new rules. I'm fairly certain a massive influx of actual commenters would tear this place apart. Mods don't actually want to mod here. I think that's a good thing. But too many people now view the internet as a free for all where you can spew whatever unless someone bans you. How long can you try to have reasonable nuanced discussions as mods with people who don't actually want to have them back.


. I would like to see you succeed.
 
Some people are just interested in reading news and reviews and such without actually having to read a forum. I’m sure we would get some newer folks to join the forums because of it. We would probably get more people joining the Discord over time. I’m just interested in making the Pub accessible to more people.
 
It really sounds like you've already made up your mind to do this... You just seem to be looking for validation?

It's your site.
Do what you want with it,
 
It really sounds like you've already made up your mind to do this... You just seem to be looking for validation?

It's your site.
Do what you want with it,
On the contrary, I’m never totally 100% sure of anything I do with the Pub in regards to changing it.
 
Hands down, my favorite online community can be found at metafilter.com. You can post about pretty much anything you want there and as long as you are genuine about good, clear, respectful communication you'll be fine. There are two things they do that I think are key to what makes them good.

The first, and most important thing(s) is/are the moderators. A good crew of moderators will make or break a community. I think the mods here are solid and I've been impressed with how they've gone about their business.

The second thing metafilter does is require a one time fee of $5 to be a posting member. You can read for free but if you want to be able to participate in the conversation(s) you gotta pony up that $5. A one time fee of $5 is a trivial expense but it seems to be an effective solution to weed out bots and folks who just want to shitpost.

I can't say that I'm a fan of adding social media and all that to the pub but I'm not the one that makes decisions. You gotta do what makes you want to do the thing you do and if you get bored doing the thing you do that's not good.
 
EN World isn't a bad comparison I suppose for what it look like to have a steady group of paid content generators. Not that anyone wants to just mimic EW, but ypu know what I mean.
En World tend to annoy me with "how" they go about monitoring and interacting with posters. Russ and crew can be quite snippy and nasty and only they are allowed to be so. Often when you'd think they'd be responding with a reasonable toned post instead they're shits. Part of why I read their news releases and that's it these days.

So I'd dislike the Pub becoming like EN. It would tend to make me take a step back because reasonable conversation is difficult there. They tend to behave like 800 pound gorillas with a toothache.
 
I'm all for growing and expanding. I'm in two minds about the no politics rule though.
On one hand, this is a superchill forum without much in the way of toxic drama and cliquey nonsense which is lovely.
On the other hand, I'd quite like to discuss the news of the day with folks here and not being able to do so feels like a lost opportunity.
I think where the Site and TBP have got it wrong is they have taken sides and differing opinion becomes a sanctionable thought crime.

But then I'm a fly-by-night poster of low calorie content, what do I know?
 
Banner: The best cosmic horror & Cthulhu Mythos @ DriveThruRPG.com
Back
Top