OBS - Monopolies and their TOC. (Split off thread).

Best Selling RPGs - Available Now @ DriveThruRPG.com
Most of the anti-OBS arguments I'm seeing wrt to content moderation boil down to "It's inconvenient for me to find alternate methods of advertising, sales and distribution, so I expect OBS to provide me with unconditional access to their platform and resources because reasons".

This isn't what people are saying. It is obviously disputed territory. Some people think finding arrangements elsewhere or doing a kickstarter are more viable. Saying you disagree is fine (Rob just pointed to an alternative point of view of mine, without being dismissive of my view). This is a complicated topic and people can disagree about it without folks having to have bad motivations driving those disagreements. Personally I think I would have very hard time putting out books if I wasn't on OBS. And it is also a question I'd rather not risking have answered if I can avoid it, because like I said before, the revenue streams here are tight. There isn't a lot of room for me to experiment with alternatives and know that is going to work out okay for me financially, or that I will still be able to make books on the other side of it.

And again, it is debatable territory. Different publishers are going to have different takes. I never got on the kickstarter thing, so that is an area I can't really weigh in (though obviously at a certain point I considered it and decided that is not how I want to do publishing).
 
I think we can either have a discussion about this, or we can have a fight (which I think most people don't want). If we impugn peoples motives, call peoples opinions names, we are not going to get anywhere but into hostile interactions with one another. This isn't an issue that people need to hate one another over. You can have strong views on a topic like what OBS should do (because there is a lot of legal complexity, a lot of competing rights, etc) and not think someone who disagrees with you is the devil or change your opinion about a poster because they have perfectly sincere and legitimate differences of opinion.
 
I think we can either have a discussion about this, or we can have a fight (which I think most people don't want). If we impugn peoples motives, call peoples opinions names, we are not going to get anywhere but into hostile interactions with one another. This isn't an issue that people need to hate one another over. You can have strong views on a topic like what OBS should do (because there is a lot of legal complexity, a lot of competing rights, etc) and not think someone who disagrees with you is the devil or change your opinion about a poster because they have perfectly sincere and legitimate differences of opinion.
Fair enough, apologies for being a dick.
 
I think we can either have a discussion about this, or we can have a fight (which I think most people don't want). If we impugn peoples motives, call peoples opinions names, we are not going to get anywhere but into hostile interactions with one another. This isn't an issue that people need to hate one another over. You can have strong views on a topic like what OBS should do (because there is a lot of legal complexity, a lot of competing rights, etc) and not think someone who disagrees with you is the devil or change your opinion about a poster because they have perfectly sincere and legitimate differences of opinion.
This. I thought better of and deleted several replies before this. Let's not fight over what OBS may or may not do. I don't think it's worth it. Only time will tell if this policy gets abused. I don't think it will based on OBS track record so far. Even if it is abused it will just trigger a user exodus and create competition that I agree the PoD and PDF gaming market sorely needs.
 
You do have kickstarter which is true, but that still requires reach to get to the level of investment you need, and it is a whole other way of making a game because you are essentially bringing in investors (they don't take a cut of the profits obviously, the arrangement is made on the front end, but it does mean you are beholden to backers, which I think one can argue has the potential to make you less of an independent creator).
For physical games like RPG, Kickstarter basically amounts to a pre-order system. The safest way of dealing with a Kickstarter is to do everything you can with a product before you do the Kickstarter. Which for an independent publisher is to have everything they can do done like the writing and possibly the editing (especially if it is a team doing the KS). Then what happens afterward is stuff like art, layout, and editing. In short anything that costs you time, you do before, anything that actually requires an outlay you do after.

Under this system, which I lot of folks I know use, the KS functions as a pre-order. And is highly efficient for thing like print run where you can get a better estimate of what you actually need instead of guessing like you would with a traditional release. Usually folks doing things this way will dedicate some of their margin to additional copies (due to the marginal extra cost) that they sell through their stores or distribution.

And if they need more print copies. They do, yet another Kickstarter. Usually throwing in a higher cost level like a version with a leather bound cover. At it's conclusion again you have an accurate estimate of demand .

It not simple because you need to get your costs right especially shipping. But it is straightforward once you done it a few times.

From my conversations with folks doing this it is a total game changer. And Print on Demand sales and PDF sales become a bonus income instead of the primary income.

As for myself, this is the approach I basically adopted with my Majestic Fantasy RPG Kickstarter.

Still though, I don't think it is the norm yet. I haven't done a kickstarter, I don't think I ever would because I don't really want to work with backers in mind (and I've seen a lot of kickstarters that went sideways). I still think OBS occupies such a significant portion of the hobby, even with kickstarter, most publishers are going to shape their content to fit any guidelines that OBS advances.
Treat it like a pre-order. Which you can do by establishing in your pitch that it is already written, playtested, and needs funds for the remainder to complete its final published form. You are already doing many of the same steps that you would need to do with a KS with your current promotion. The difference you won't have to guess as much for the size of your print run. You only have to figure out how much you will need to put into your traditional distribution channels.
 
Kickstarter and crowd funding in general has impacted how the sales trajectory works for RPG products. By providing an independent path for sales, promotion, and distribution.

What one would lose by running afoul of DriveThru with a Kickstarter heavy approach are the long tail sales. Obviously still not desirable but it not quite as dire as forced to open your own web store. Unless of course you are Judges Guild and fucked up the Kickstarter approach.
Kickstarter is an alternative, but even then, a lot of customers will be expecting a PDF delivered through DriveThru as part of their pledge.
 
Kickstarter is an alternative, but even then, a lot of customers will be expecting a PDF delivered through DriveThru as part of their pledge.
Now that you mention it I can't recall a single Kickstarter RPG where I got the final PDF via something other than DriveThru.
 
Now that you mention it I can't recall a single Kickstarter RPG where I got the final PDF via something other than DriveThru.
The Classic RuneQuest Kickstarter PDFs were provided other than via DriveThru. The Chaosium BTW is another example of a publisher that has their own store, though they do also sell on DriveThru (but if you buy from the Chaosium site, your PDF purchase can count towards the print edition, and print editions come with free PDF).
 
For physical games like RPG, Kickstarter basically amounts to a pre-order system. The safest way of dealing with a Kickstarter is to do everything you can with a product before you do the Kickstarter. Which for an independent publisher is to have everything they can do done like the writing and possibly the editing (especially if it is a team doing the KS). Then what happens afterward is stuff like art, layout, and editing. In short anything that costs you time, you do before, anything that actually requires an outlay you do after.

Under this system, which I lot of folks I know use, the KS functions as a pre-order. And is highly efficient for thing like print run where you can get a better estimate of what you actually need instead of guessing like you would with a traditional release. Usually folks doing things this way will dedicate some of their margin to additional copies (due to the marginal extra cost) that they sell through their stores or distribution.

And if they need more print copies. They do, yet another Kickstarter. Usually throwing in a higher cost level like a version with a leather bound cover. At it's conclusion again you have an accurate estimate of demand .

It not simple because you need to get your costs right especially shipping. But it is straightforward once you done it a few times.

From my conversations with folks doing this it is a total game changer. And Print on Demand sales and PDF sales become a bonus income instead of the primary income.

As for myself, this is the approach I basically adopted with my Majestic Fantasy RPG Kickstarter.


Treat it like a pre-order. Which you can do by establishing in your pitch that it is already written, playtested, and needs funds for the remainder to complete its final published form. You are already doing many of the same steps that you would need to do with a KS with your current promotion. The difference you won't have to guess as much for the size of your print run. You only have to figure out how much you will need to put into your traditional distribution channels.

Kickstarter is something I decided I am never going to use (for a number of reasons: some of which include things like because of my present printing arrangements, shifting to kickstarter would mean I would have to take up a huge number of tasks I don't personally do but have another company handle). If there were some extreme instance where I wasn't able to put stuff on OBS, I would still have my current print arrangement. It would PDFs where the issue is (and PDF revenue is a big part of how I generate enough money for each game). So I'd probably either try alternative approaches for PDFs, or just call it a day (there would be too much change in terms of how I do things).
 
This is the ugliest thing OBS does, in my opinion. As a former game store manager, I sympathize with them on a lot issues, but shutting people out from selling through other sources is both anti-producer and anti-consumer, whether you are OBS or Epic.
I could be wrong, but my understanding is Epic at least pays extra for the exclusivity, rather than taking more.

Am I incorrect on that? I can’t see how they could otherwise strong arm people when Steam is the big dog in that room.
 
Now that you mention it I can't recall a single Kickstarter RPG where I got the final PDF via something other than DriveThru.
I have, and there was a lot of noise about it in the comments.
I could be wrong, but my understanding is Epic at least pays extra for the exclusivity, rather than taking more.

Am I incorrect on that? I can’t see how they could otherwise strong arm people when Steam is the big dog in that room.
Yes, they buy the exclusive rights. The argument is that it give the company money to help with development, but that seems dubious when they sign an exclusivity deal in the weeks leading up to release.

As a consumer, it doesn't matter to me if they are taking less or paying more. I'd be more likely to buy from them if they saved the millions the millions they spend on exclusives and spent it providing more of the functionality that Steam has.
 
Just add, at least Epic is just locking down a game for a year or so, while DriveThru pushes unending exclusivity. And Epic is at least a new store trying to break into a market, while OBS uses its exclusivity policies to try and prevent other companies from being in a position to challenge it.
 
I've received digital Kickstarter rewards outside of dtrpg a time or two.

Goodman games is also weird, because the box sets I've bought had dtrpg download links, but single modules seem to be hosted on Goodman's own site.
 
The fact that we have to point out worse stuff going on in our fucked up political landscape in order to make OBS look good by comparison doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
I'd agree with that. I'd say that the fact that currently OBS have only removed a handful of products despite the product guidelines having existed before this latest kerfuffle without seemingly much effect overall.
Unless you happen to be on the other side of this Kulturkampf nonsense, then you can do it and get other people's stuff taken down, if not permanently, then at least long enough to mess up their initial sales, which are crucial to a product's success.
Yeah, absolutely and that one is a valid concern. From both sides; if you read the comments to Raggi's video there's certainly people there that think this would be something people they should do (although Raggi has expressly disagreed).

That said, while a worry, I'd actually like to see this happening where it can't be predicted first. We don't know how it actually works. If someone is putting up a piece highly likely to find itself flagged (a tiny percent of the RPGs on there) they probably should be working out their marketing campaign timing accordingly. And what we don't know is that "flagged" automatically leads to "product taken down".
Except that they aren't the publisher's business partners per se, but more like a platform providing a service, and people bad mouth services in public all the time. When was the last time someone got banned from air travel because they bad mouthed an airline in social media for messing up their luggage?
Even when we take it as a service industry (and I'd argue that the customers here are actually people buying RPGs), shops universally reserve the right to refuse service.
And how are service providers supposed to change if we're not allowed to criticize their services or service related policies.
Grim and Raggi already covered this in their videos, but this is a huge platform pushing their weight on small publishers who might not be able to effectively redress their grievances any other way. Bitching in social media works. That's sometimes the only way to get big corporations to address your concerns when they're sidelining you. Hell, that's how products started getting flagged and pulled (either permanently, or long enough to damage their sales) in the first place--bitching in social media. Only now one group is allowed to do that, and the other one is the only one getting punished, even more severely than they already were.
This is the kind of thing I think we really have no option to wait and see because I can see every interpretation from "this will only be used in extreme cases" to "any social media mention of us in a non positive manner". So far it's only been used in extreme cases, but that could change and does need watching.

Honestly, I'm thinking their real PR mistake here was making this about the rules at all. They should have just gone "we're no longer doing business with Venger Satanis because of his behaviour" and then slapped him with a defamation suit if they felt like playing hard ball.
 
Just add, at least Epic is just locking down a game for a year or so, while DriveThru pushes unending exclusivity. And Epic is at least a new store trying to break into a market, while OBS uses its exclusivity policies to try and prevent other companies from being in a position to challenge it.
The other big difference is that Epic is undercutting Steam by giving developers more money (even for non exclusives) and OBS is using its market dominance to take a cut I personally consider unjustifiable compared to their costs and what they offer.

It's worth noting that Epic have said they'll drop exclusives if Steam matches their developer cut. Utterly cynical marketing bullshit, but clever.

Finally, this isn't all one way. Steam have the "you may not sell this elsewhere cheaper" clause that OBS do.
 
Just add, at least Epic is just locking down a game for a year or so, while DriveThru pushes unending exclusivity. And Epic is at least a new store trying to break into a market, while OBS uses its exclusivity policies to try and prevent other companies from being in a position to challenge it.
That's where they are using pseudo monopoly status to harm consumers. This is analogous to Google promoting it's internal products over competitors on it's search engine rankings. It's been very effective for them.
 
I've received digital Kickstarter rewards outside of dtrpg a time or two.

Goodman games is also weird, because the box sets I've bought had dtrpg download links, but single modules seem to be hosted on Goodman's own site.
I've received a handful of things on Backerkit or by email before.
 
Personally, what I'd like to see is consequences for false flags. If there are groups targetting specific creators to mass report their stuff and get it taken down, anyone who does so for a product that is found to in no way violate the TOS should lose their reporting privileges.
 
Personally, what I'd like to see is consequences for false flags. If there are groups targetting specific creators to mass report their stuff and get it taken down, anyone who does so for a product that is found to in no way violate the TOS should lose their reporting privileges.
Agreed, although we don't know there aren't.

We could brigade your games to test it out. ;)
 
I'd agree with that. I'd say that the fact that currently OBS have only removed a handful of products despite the product guidelines having existed before this latest kerfuffle without seemingly much effect overall.

One of the issues that has been raised is we are not 100% sure how many products have been flagged and taken down (and which ones went up and which didn't). Presumably the high profile ones we've heard about are all the ones that have happened, but there isn't a master list and it isn't like Drivethru sends out a notification anytime they do that. I think the idea of a list of products taken down is helpful both because it would make it easier to have these discussions and know for a fact X is the number, but also it does let customers know that a product they are looking for is specifically not available at OBS.
 
Personally, what I'd like to see is consequences for false flags. If there are groups targetting specific creators to mass report their stuff and get it taken down, anyone who does so for a product that is found to in no way violate the TOS should lose their reporting privileges.
Better to boot them from the platform entirely, so they can't later claim that OBS has rendered them unable to respond to harassment, should any occur.
 
As a consumer, it doesn't matter to me if they are taking less or paying more. I'd be more likely to buy from them if they saved the millions the millions they spend on exclusives and spent it providing more of the functionality that Steam has.
And that’s fine. I’m just saying there’s a difference between paying extra for exclusives as a smaller dog in the fight (compared to Steam) and strong arming a bigger cut as the biggest dog in the fight (as OBS does).

As a consumer, the only times I’ve ever spent money at Epic is for Darkest Dungeon 2 and to buy DLC for Civ6, after they gave me the base game for free. The rest of my library (played and unplayed) is freebies.

My actual preferred storefront is GOG, but it’s hampered by a few things, the biggest of which being companies quickly abandoning their GOG versions and leaving them out of date.
 
Most of the important stuff has already been said by others, so I'll just point out one thing.
I see several people here thinking something along the lines of "yeah they're giving themselves essentially infinite latitude but this isn't too bad because so far OBS has been even-handed, so the sky isn't falling yet".

If you believe a faulty power structure is ok because "the people in power so far have been good so there's nothing to worry about", you're in for one hell of a rude surprise. And that's because faulty power structures are put in place FOR A REASON.
 
Better to boot them from the platform entirely, so they can't later claim that OBS has rendered them unable to respond to harassment, should any occur.
To kind of piggyback on my own post here, false or malicious reporting should be disincentivized as vigorously as possible.
 
Kickstarter is an alternative, but even then, a lot of customers will be expecting a PDF delivered through DriveThru as part of their pledge.
Sure however there is Backerkit as a means of distribution and permanent storage. The problem with PDFs is generally getting them later not distributing them.

For example here is one of the files I can retrieve from 2017.

1656528533786.png

A Backerkit hosted file link
1656528602528.png
 
Most of the important stuff has already been said by others, so I'll just point out one thing.
I see several people here thinking something along the lines of "yeah they're giving themselves essentially infinite latitude but this isn't too bad because so far OBS has been even-handed, so the sky isn't falling yet".

If you believe a faulty power structure is ok because "the people in power so far have been good so there's nothing to worry about", you're in for one hell of a rude surprise. And that's because faulty power structures are put in place FOR A REASON.
*Technically* Endless has infinite latitude on here. He can ban any of us. Hell, he can even edit our posts or change our avatars. There comes a point where practice outweighs possibility.
 
If you frequently play with friends none of the game platforms compare with Steam
To be fair, I think all of the various platforms have their own niches there. Steam is best for multiplayer, GOG is best for actually making old games playable again, Epic gives me lots of free shit.

Although none of them compare to World of Spectrum, obviously.
 
The other big difference is that Epic is undercutting Steam by giving developers more money (even for non exclusives) and OBS is using its market dominance to take a cut I personally consider unjustifiable compared to their costs and what they offer.

It's worth noting that Epic have said they'll drop exclusives if Steam matches their developer cut. Utterly cynical marketing bullshit, but clever.

Finally, this isn't all one way. Steam have the "you may not sell this elsewhere cheaper" clause that OBS do.
Yeah, I don't want to come off as championing Steam too much.
Personally, what I'd like to see is consequences for false flags. If there are groups targetting specific creators to mass report their stuff and get it taken down, anyone who does so for a product that is found to in no way violate the TOS should lose their reporting privileges.
I was thinking about that as well. I'd go with a strike system, as I can see some people innocently reporting something that wasn't against the rules.
Agreed, although we don't know there aren't.
We are both mods. We know that certain names become familiar when you respond to reports.
And that’s fine. I’m just saying there’s a difference between paying extra for exclusives as a smaller dog in the fight (compared to Steam) and strong arming a bigger cut as the biggest dog in the fight (as OBS does).

As a consumer, the only times I’ve ever spent money at Epic is for Darkest Dungeon 2 and to buy DLC for Civ6, after they gave me the base game for free. The rest of my library (played and unplayed) is freebies.

My actual preferred storefront is GOG, but it’s hampered by a few things, the biggest of which being companies quickly abandoning their GOG versions and leaving them out of date.
GOG has the selling point of DRM-free games, something genuinely consumer-friendly.
 
*Technically* Endless has infinite latitude on here. He can ban any of us. Hell, he can even edit our posts or change our avatars. There comes a point where practice outweighs possibility.

The consequences of Endless going Full Palpatine however arent really significant


No one would be worried about OBS if it was just a silly forum
 
Epic's a difficult one.

I don't think they really offer consumers anything but the free games.

But I know someone with what was an exclusive on there (I'm not naming him). All I'm saying is I'm not sure a single one of us would turn down that kind of money as an indie developer.

So they're actually the most pro creator of the sites, they just haven't balanced it with doing anything for the customer.
 
Most of the important stuff has already been said by others, so I'll just point out one thing.
I see several people here thinking something along the lines of "yeah they're giving themselves essentially infinite latitude but this isn't too bad because so far OBS has been even-handed, so the sky isn't falling yet".

If you believe a faulty power structure is ok because "the people in power so far have been good so there's nothing to worry about", you're in for one hell of a rude surprise. And that's because faulty power structures are put in place FOR A REASON.

Pretty much. Also, even if they've been fairly evenhanded so far, some of these are pretty new rules, and one of the means people have to help ensure that they don't start screwing people over (and perhaps amend their rules) is to bitch about it early and treat it like the sky is already falling rather than wait till screwing people over becomes official practice and it's already harder to turn back the tide to start complaining then.
 
Just add, at least Epic is just locking down a game for a year or so, while DriveThru pushes unending exclusivity. And Epic is at least a new store trying to break into a market, while OBS uses its exclusivity policies to try and prevent other companies from being in a position to challenge it.
I think too many times people use the excuse "We're the underdog" to excuse shitty practices. As long as the limitations are not punitive, they need to be applied equally, IMO, or chance ending up in the same situation with someone else on top.
 
Epic's a difficult one.

I don't think they really offer consumers anything but the free games.

But I know someone with what was an exclusive on there (I'm not naming him). All I'm saying is I'm not sure a single one of us would turn down that kind of money as an indie developer.

So they're actually the most pro creator of the sites, they just haven't balanced it with doing anything for the customer.
I think they're only pro-creator as a ploy, both in marketing and gaining market share.
 
I think they're only pro-creator as a ploy, both in marketing and gaining market share.
Oh, sure, but in business I don't actually expect altruism. So them being objectively pro creator for subjectively utter bastard reasons doesn't really cause issues for me.
 
Oh, sure, but in business I don't actually expect altruism. So them being objectively pro creator for subjectively utter bastard reasons doesn't really cause issues for me.
I think motivation matters. Let's say they reach their goal. If the reason motivation is money, and they see that they can make more by turning their back on it, do you think they won't? See "Don't Be Evil" and Google.
 
Kickstarter is an alternative, but even then, a lot of customers will be expecting a PDF delivered through DriveThru as part of their pledge.
And the %age doesn't affect those, does it? I love people that give rewards on itch and DTRPG, as the reason I stick with DTRPG over any other platform as a customer is the fact that my products and purchases are in one place, so somewhere else will have to have a compelling reason to make me leave.
 
Epic's a difficult one.

I don't think they really offer consumers anything but the free games.

But I know someone with what was an exclusive on there (I'm not naming him). All I'm saying is I'm not sure a single one of us would turn down that kind of money as an indie developer.

So they're actually the most pro creator of the sites, they just haven't balanced it with doing anything for the customer.
I don't fault the developers at all. Still, it is a somewhat insidious position to be in. Someone is giving you what is a big pile of money (but a pittance to them), and in return, you agree not to sell your product in the place you can reach the most people.
 
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