Are female D&D players comfier around male D&D players these days?

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apropos of nothing, I just want to note that Red Sonja is very popular among women comic readers, always has been.

That's kind of my point I guess. While many female geeks have always enjoyed the Red Sonja archetype, I used to have the impression female gamers used to be reluctant to play this type of character, or some other more sexual PC types, for fear of reaction from some male gamers. But that seems to me to have faded in recent years, especially the last 6-8 years. But that's just my impression, and I was wondering if others with a wide experience of lots of different players over recent decades had seen this too.
 
I started in 1975 and my early group was all male and middle-school to early high school. Our campaigns were pretty much what you'd think out of kids that age. Somewhere around 1980 we had girlfriends join the table and the group was around 40% female. Since then over the decades the names and faces have changed but my home group have typically been around 40% to 50% female, although when a friend brought his two sons the percent dropped a little.

In the game store over the last decade or so I think it's usually a smaller percentage. Adventurer's League is often around 7 players plus a DM. Among the 8 there are usually 2-3 girls but a dominance of males. I wonder if girls are more self-conscious in public, but are more willing to play at home.
 
That's kind of my point I guess. While many female geeks have always enjoyed the Red Sonja archetype, I used to have the impression female gamers used to be reluctant to play this type of character, or some other more sexual PC types, for fear of reaction from some male gamers. But that seems to me to have faded in recent years, especially the last 6-8 years. But that's just my impression, and I was wondering if others with a wide experience of lots of different players over recent decades had seen this too.

I dunno, I find myself uncomfortable speaking in generalizations in regards to girls' tastes. That said, outside of appearance , Red Sonja is the opposite of a sexually assertive character, essentially asexual for all intents and purposes. But yeah, I don't think most people (guys and girls) are going to be automatically comfortable roleplaying overtly sexual or sexualized characters. YMMV, but that sort of stuff just hasnt been the focus of any of my gaming experiences - when it comes to fantasy, in particular, the motivations tends to be getting the best armour and weapons possible. I think everybody (boys and girls) are more focused on looking "cool" than "hot".
 
in the 90s I preferred playing White Wolf games because actual girls participated. Not to stereotype, but there was less of an emphasis on macho posturing and PvP.
 
Just curious about the connection, but why, if the anecdotes are true, did women like to play Vampire?
 
YMMV, but that sort of stuff just hasnt been the focus of any of my gaming experiences - when it comes to fantasy, in particular, the motivations tends to be getting the best armour and weapons possible.

In the circles of my youth the tacit agreement was that geeks like us had an unfair reputation for sexual weirdness, so to not live up to that we collectively avoided putting sexual situations into games. Not that there were any girls around to offend, but it made us feel better about ourselves to have that strong unspoken red line.

It was only years later that I understood some people were working out psycho-sexual issues with some character choices that, at the time, seemed innocent, like furry races.

Just curious about the connection, but why, if the anecdotes are true, did women like to play Vampire?

After listening to women talk about their Vampire stories, one of the factors (not the only factor, read goddamnit) I think was that the game really encouraged more typically feminine options for bypassing or destroying enemies: long-term diplomacy, stealth, sabotage, whispering campaigns, psychological manipulation, misdirection, framing, etc.
 
in the 90s I preferred playing White Wolf games because actual girls participated. Not to stereotype, but there was less of an emphasis on macho posturing and PvP.
Heh, you're White Wolf gaming was very different from my experiences. I actually found it worse for all those things (but that to be fair was mostly live-action versions.)
 
Heh, you're White Wolf gaming was very different from my experiences. I actually found it worse for all those things (but that to be fair was mostly live-action versions.)
Clarification about my experiences: when playing White Wolf games with an all-men table, it was all katanas, trenchcoats and guns guns guns.
 
I don't claim to speak for anyone, especially women. And, believe it or not, I'm not eager to tap dance on this particular land mine.

But, what I can say, is that back in July of 1980, Dragon magazine published an article called, "Women Want Equality." It was about discrimination faced by female players at gaming tables. IIRC, it included testimony from Laura Roslof. There is a reason why this article was written. There are also instances in 3rd party D&D and official T&T adventures of foes threatening or attempting to sexually assault female characters, implicitly, if not explicitly. How would male players feel if your DM sprung a "Deliverance" scenario on them? Not too good, I'll wager. Reminds me of a comedian I once heard, who said, "Men, you should never say anything to a woman on the street that you wouldn't want another man to say to you... in prison."

The demographics of gaming are changing, and with it, hopefully, our attitudes. Even if none of us purposely tried to make anyone uncomfortable BITD, I'm not sure we can say it didn't happen, or wasn't a problem. Yes, we all have had our own experiences and groups of friends. And maybe we were always cool, open-minded, and welcoming. But anecdotes are not data. What we do know is that the hobby is more diverse than ever. Are these folks joining the hobby because it's more welcoming these days? Or is it becoming more welcoming because of their presence? Or both? Chicken? Egg? I'm not pretending to know.

It's no secret that MY attitudes have changed a whole lot, but am I even the right person to ask about this? Look, anything I ever learned about women that was true or valid, I learned FROM women. So, maybe they're the only ones who are capable of telling us how they felt then, why they felt that way, and how they feel now. And the same probably goes for any other demographic that is now gaming more than they used to.

Mods pls delete, I'm sorry, etc.
 
I think it also helps that D&D has become "cooler" and less of a "nerd" thing, even if only a little.
 
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Just curious about the connection, but why, if the anecdotes are true, did women like to play Vampire?
For us, it wasn't just Vampire (hence "White Wolf", not specifically Masquerade). Changing Breeds, Changelings, Mages etc... Urban Fantasy had broader appeal than other RPGs with the people I knew.
 
I definitely fall into the anecdotal women were a very small minority of players in the 80s camp. Ran across very few female players, and rarely encountered more than one at a table. When they were encountered they tended to be a girlfriend, spouse or sister of one of the male players.
That covers conventions, game store games and in private at some ones home sessions. I started playing in 1978, and did not start noticing women playing in any significant numbers until the 90s where they were still outnumbered but less of a unicorn.

I turned 18 in 1985, so I was noticing women well before the 90s so not seeing them can't be blamed on my not paying attention.


Video games are not TT RPGs, but my wife is an avid video gamer and her experiences online gaming certainly mirror a lot of the "wimins aren't real gamers" stuff that for many years I thought was just anti-gamer propaganda. That is in the present tense.

I don't know how that relates to the table top scene, as she has less experience playing with other adults at an open table to compare with her online video game experience.

Most of the groups I've played with have been mixed. I've experienced very few instances of male players being creepy. I think people soon work out who the weirdoes are and avoid them, so you mostly end up with groups populated by decent people. The stereotype of male players as greasy, lecherous neckbeards is just that: a stereotype conjured up by the sort of person who says things like, "well, we all know what men are like" or from creative fiction writing venues such as /r/rpghorrorstories.

Oh, I've seen enough catpiss men to know they exist. The gamer stereotype is not a made up fiction, but I do think the numbers are wildly overblown.

Thing is one catpiss man negates 100 perfectly normal gamers. When you tell stories you don't talk about the guy who runs a forklift at Home Depot and is in a metal band, the security guard dating a model, the IT guy at the hospital married with 2 kids, no you talk about the guy who probably hasn't bathed in a month, is unaware toothbrushes exist, and gawks at anything with boobs (even if they are man boobs).
You also leave out that this guy wasn't actually part of the gaming group, just some random stranger at the game store who kept hitting on your underage sister.

Over the years I've played with some socially awkward people, but none were the caricature often depicted.

Pre 90s I think it was a sausage fest. Yes there were women in it but all the estimates I can see list the upper bound to be around 10% of all players. That matches what I saw back then. The 90s brought Vampire and that changed everything. There were women playing for sure and ones who made significant contributions but they ratio skewed heavily male.

This very much fits my experience.

I think you were just living in the wrong place

I think time and place is a critical factor in experiences. One thing I've noticed is gaming is very much an invited hobby. People tend to bring friends who may enjoy it to their groups. If you have a group with women, you probably find a lot more women. I'd guess this is particularly true for games in a home, where a solo woman is less likely to be invited / accept vs in a public space.

My experience was outside of conventions most games were in a home until the late 80s / early 90s when a lot more game stores started offering gaming space.

Just curious about the connection, but why, if the anecdotes are true, did women like to play Vampire?

Chicks dig vampires, it's a thing. Hobbits not so much.
 
Purely anecdoatal, but I ran for an all female group (4 players) in high school. This would have been around 1980-1981. I've almost always had a mix of male and female players in my groups since then, with my current group being 4 male and 2 female players. Now, I've been going to gaming cons sine 1977 (Gencon South), and going to Gencon itself since 1996, and the ratio of female to male con attendees at the big cons has definitely changed, being at least 50/50 now, if not more women.
 
Mods pls delete, I'm sorry, etc.
What are you apologizing for? It’s not political. I’m sure lots of women wanted to try out gaming over the years but when they ran into certain elements of the gaming community at cons, stores or at somebody’s house, they were turned off. I’d be repulsed. It’s unfortunate but it’s gotten better over the decades.
 
I was (mostly) joking about that. The apology I mean.

Poking a bit of fun at my own rep.
 
How would male players feel if your DM sprung a "Deliverance" scenario on them?

Depends on what you signed up for really.

Not that I'd be interested, but I do find it kind of smirk-and-roll-your-eyes when people who claim they want "grimdark" games are all aboard settings and splatbooks that lovingly detail the most horrifying murder, torture, mutilation, oppression, genocide, insanity, etc, but draw a very strange line at rape (and slavery now apparently).

Whatever, I avoid grimdark now, it's their circle to square.
 
Depends on what you signed up for really.

Not that I'd be interested, but I do find it kind of smirk-and-roll-your-eyes when people who claim they want "grimdark" games are all aboard settings and splatbooks that lovingly detail the most horrifying murder, torture, mutilation, oppression, genocide, insanity, etc, but draw a very strange line at rape (and slavery now apparently).

Whatever, I avoid grimdark now, it's their circle to square.
I think it's the "sprung on" that's probably the critical factor here. My anecdotal experience is that actually young women are the demographic most likely to push stuff hard in grimdark games. But that doesn't mean they want the same content unexpectedly turning up in dungeon crawls.
 
Seems like a question that can only be answered by a particular female. I wouldn't hazard to generalize for all females, and though they are more prevalent, I wouldn't confuse presence with their comfort, especially around some in the hobby.
 
Depends on what you signed up for really.

Not that I'd be interested, but I do find it kind of smirk-and-roll-your-eyes when people who claim they want "grimdark" games are all aboard settings and splatbooks that lovingly detail the most horrifying murder, torture, mutilation, oppression, genocide, insanity, etc, but draw a very strange line at rape (and slavery now apparently).

Whatever, I avoid grimdark now, it's their circle to square.

I like grimdark stuff, but I would generally avoid rape as it's something I know players are going to have a much higher chance of having actually experienced that than, say, having their arm torn off by a demon.
 
But where is Applecline getting that demographic info from?

Do we even have accurate demographic numbers today? Let alone 40 years ago?
Also see the excellent book, How to Lie with Statistics...
 
I think it's the "sprung on" that's probably the critical factor here.

That's still funny to me, the idea that we have "cozy" grimdark now, like we already had cozy mysteries*.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cozy_mystery

fhlIUPv.jpg
 
There are degrees of darkness.

Good point, but isn't it odd that, on that spectrum of degrees for a lot of people (not you clearly), cannibal gnolls winding the guts out of live prisoners broken on torture wheels while the disease demon they summoned prepares to consume and eradicate their immortal souls ISN'T the ultimate evil?

It's even more baffling when you consider what the attack of the ever-popular vampire represents: Somebody assaults you, punctures your body, sucks out your fluids (possibly to death, possibly painfully) and usually derives great pleasure from it. What does this remind us of?

I could probably run the plot from Deliverance, replace the rednecks with vampires, and no one would bat an eye. Doesn't that seem weird?
 
My take is that people cluster. If you have one female player who doesn't start as a girlfriend/wife of an existing player she's going to likely have friends with similar hobbies. Especially in precollege years. So that group is likely going to get more women than one with 5 guys looking for 1 more. One gal alone acts as a limited vetting that the guys in the group are reasonable.
 
What does this remind us of?
I've seen people talk about the matter in terms of how the layer of metaphor and fantasy manages to make it more comfortable to engage with, more removed from reality. A bit like the bodice ripper romance story, where there's a thrill to the sense of a dangerous lover that still needs to stop short of somebody who makes the protagonist feel truly afraid and actual violence seems threatened. Even then it can vary from person to person, sometimes something like the vampire really is too reminiscent.

It can also depend on how much it's subtext or just text. I feel as though if one was setting out to make Deliverance with vampires, they'd end up making it less subtextual for the sake of getting their point across.
 
Good point, but isn't it odd that, on that spectrum of degrees for a lot of people (not you clearly), cannibal gnolls winding the guts out of live prisoners broken on torture wheels while the disease demon they summoned prepares to consume and eradicate their immortal souls ISN'T the ultimate evil?

It's even more baffling when you consider what the attack of the ever-popular vampire represents: Somebody assaults you, punctures your body, sucks out your fluids (possibly to death, possibly painfully) and usually derives great pleasure from it. What does this remind us of?

I could probably run the plot from Deliverance, replace the rednecks with vampires, and no one would bat an eye. Doesn't that seem weird?
Yes, the vast majority of popular entertainment through the ages has consisted of euphemisms and allegories. That's exactly my point. Spoonful of sugar and all that.
 
That's kind of my point I guess. While many female geeks have always enjoyed the Red Sonja archetype, I used to have the impression female gamers used to be reluctant to play this type of character, or some other more sexual PC types, for fear of reaction from some male gamers. But that seems to me to have faded in recent years, especially the last 6-8 years. But that's just my impression, and I was wondering if others with a wide experience of lots of different players over recent decades had seen this too.
I would say the Red Sonja to Aleena ratio has increased, but that’s just an impression.
 
in the 90s I preferred playing White Wolf games because actual girls participated. Not to stereotype, but there was less of an emphasis on macho posturing and PvP.
When Goth girls were hot….sigh.
 
I definitely fall into the anecdotal women were a very small minority of players in the 80s camp. Ran across very few female players, and rarely encountered more than one at a table. When they were encountered they tended to be a girlfriend, spouse or sister of one of the male players.
That covers conventions, game store games and in private at some ones home sessions. I started playing in 1978, and did not start noticing women playing in any significant numbers until the 90s where they were still outnumbered but less of a unicorn.

I turned 18 in 1985, so I was noticing women well before the 90s so not seeing them can't be blamed on my not paying attention.


Video games are not TT RPGs, but my wife is an avid video gamer and her experiences online gaming certainly mirror a lot of the "wimins aren't real gamers" stuff that for many years I thought was just anti-gamer propaganda. That is in the present tense.

I don't know how that relates to the table top scene, as she has less experience playing with other adults at an open table to compare with her online video game experience.



Oh, I've seen enough catpiss men to know they exist. The gamer stereotype is not a made up fiction, but I do think the numbers are wildly overblown.

Thing is one catpiss man negates 100 perfectly normal gamers. When you tell stories you don't talk about the guy who runs a forklift at Home Depot and is in a metal band, the security guard dating a model, the IT guy at the hospital married with 2 kids, no you talk about the guy who probably hasn't bathed in a month, is unaware toothbrushes exist, and gawks at anything with boobs (even if they are man boobs).
You also leave out that this guy wasn't actually part of the gaming group, just some random stranger at the game store who kept hitting on your underage sister.

Over the years I've played with some socially awkward people, but none were the caricature often depicted.



This very much fits my experience.



I think time and place is a critical factor in experiences. One thing I've noticed is gaming is very much an invited hobby. People tend to bring friends who may enjoy it to their groups. If you have a group with women, you probably find a lot more women. I'd guess this is particularly true for games in a home, where a solo woman is less likely to be invited / accept vs in a public space.

My experience was outside of conventions most games were in a home until the late 80s / early 90s when a lot more game stores started offering gaming space.



Chicks dig vampires, it's a thing. Hobbits not so much.
Fuck chicks who like Vampires.
Marry chicks who like Hobbits.
 
I like grimdark stuff, but I would generally avoid rape as it's something I know players are going to have a much higher chance of having actually experienced that than, say, having their arm torn off by a demon.
I liked this comment only in the sense I agree with it. The PCs were dealing with a Slaanesh Chaos Cult in my latest WH40K game and I had to ponder this question. This was the conclusion I came to. The next question was whether and how to include it in a engaging and dare I say overall fun way without being harrowing. Essentially it involved a lot of body horror and demons precisely in order to make it less relatable and less realistic whilst also being horrible.

Also crucially it also wasn't directly the focus of the session in any sense but a very horrific example of demonic incursion rather than an ongoing thing. The players having flamethrowers also helped.
 
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Clarification about my experiences: when playing White Wolf games with an all-men table, it was all katanas, trenchcoats and guns guns guns.
That amuses me, because pre-White Wolf, I wore trenchcoats (never owned a katana never will.) During WW, I mostly just wore a jean jacket or a leather bomber jacket. I don't think I had a single PC with a katana or a trenchcoat--but I'm a bit of an odd duck for PCs from time to time.



I know a lot of dudes who did what you did though. By comparison, I think the female player-character dress style varied by game: Vampire (pseudo-Victorian), Werewolf (Not sure), Mage (Wierd stuff, most of them played the whatever Ether blah blah group), Changeling (Hippy clothes for the character.)

Note I'm talking about character here. Less so about the actual people.
 
I dunno, I like slasher films, but not torture porn.

There are degrees of darkness.
Torture porn is a necessary evil to get to revenge porn, which is really a slasher with a visceral motivation. The best kind.

A slasher with minimal motivation is just a sack of cliches decorated with FX.
 
Good point, but isn't it odd that, on that spectrum of degrees for a lot of people (not you clearly), cannibal gnolls winding the guts out of live prisoners broken on torture wheels while the disease demon they summoned prepares to consume and eradicate their immortal souls ISN'T the ultimate evil?

It's even more baffling when you consider what the attack of the ever-popular vampire represents: Somebody assaults you, punctures your body, sucks out your fluids (possibly to death, possibly painfully) and usually derives great pleasure from it. What does this remind us of?

I could probably run the plot from Deliverance, replace the rednecks with vampires, and no one would bat an eye. Doesn't that seem weird?
No. Two reasons.

1. I equate realistic vs non as being able to have a dissonance barrier between yourself and the particular offense and
2. Humanity at its darkest is worse than any imagined horror- been rewatching criminal minds, and though the cases are rooted in the real world, they seem more horrific than any imagined boogeyman. I really don't hold Mandy Patinkin any less for saying he had to leave because it was affecting his psyche.

This is also the reason I utilize human agents in most things I run- so I can use that squeamishness to judge too far. It's a lot easier to go too far when you're dealing with paper cutouts, IMO.
 
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