Mod+ OGL 1.1 is not an Open License.

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I doubt they're 'fake' accounts in terms of them being paid shills. You'll always find someone defending anything on the net. Judging by the comments sections on any video about the Manson family on YT you'd think Charlie was the best thing since sliced bread.
The MK-ULTRA program thought so as well!
Nothing torpedoed the hippie movement better than the Bad Hippie Mythology he inspired.

PS. Even if Manson was plucked from the asylum and institution systems in the US and crafted as an experiment, he’s still a dip$%^& of the worst sort and is worthy of contempt.
 
I’m still recovering from what I just saw.
Well, there was certainly no Princess there
He’s likely to attract the attention of a roving Scandinavian doco-crew if he doesn’t watch out!

If Raggi ever has to do a complete SRD reboot, I reckon he goes with the new title BotWO

Ballads of the White Orgre

And that video will be the reference, heh heh
:grin:
 
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1st Edition - Huge success.
2nd Edition - drop in success.
3rd Edition - Huge success.
4th Edition - Drop in success.
5th Edition - Huge success.
6th Edition (One D&D) - ?

I look forward to 7th Edition. lol
That fucking 8th Edition though, what a bag of shite. Bagpipes as a playable race? Clerics of Hummus? What were they thinking!?
 
I wonder what WotC is waiting for? I'm assuming at this point most folks who are going to do the survey have commented. They had to have some idea of what % answer a new OGL was going to be a plausible business opportunity. Either they have it or they don't.
In my bubble no one is buying either the NFT or protect the brand arguments. Seems to me every day this drags on they loose more customers, look worse. Am I crazy for thinking that? I know I'm biased as hell but I just don't see people saying this new OGL looks good/workable.
 
That fucking 8th Edition though, what a bag of shite. Bagpipes as a playable race? Clerics of Hummus? What were they thinking!?
Yes, and I didn’t go for the whole Be-Whatever-Class-You-Feel-In-The-Moment concept either, it was just too clumsy keeping up with that every time we rolled Initiative :grin:
 
I wonder what WotC is waiting for? I'm assuming at this point most folks who are going to do the survey have commented. They had to have some idea of what % answer a new OGL was going to be a plausible business opportunity. Either they have it or they don't.
In my bubble no one is buying either the NFT or protect the brand arguments. Seems to me every day this drags on they loose more customers, look worse. Am I crazy for thinking that? I know I'm biased as hell but I just don't see people saying this new OGL looks good/workable.

I've seen some tenatively positive comments in 5e circles on social media. The hateful content clause seems to be the bigger sticking point but that may also because all the copyright and IP issues are above most people's heads.
 
I wonder what WotC is waiting for? I'm assuming at this point most folks who are going to do the survey have commented. They had to have some idea of what % answer a new OGL was going to be a plausible business opportunity. Either they have it or they don't.
In my bubble no one is buying either the NFT or protect the brand arguments. Seems to me every day this drags on they loose more customers, look worse. Am I crazy for thinking that? I know I'm biased as hell but I just don't see people saying this new OGL looks good/workable.
No, I don't think you're wrong. I think WotC is fucking up, because they don't understand that sometimes you have to act quickly and get out in front of the problem, rather than hang back and wait for it to blow over. And what they've offered so far is clearly not a good enough response for people now, and it will look even worse in February. I also think that, if the current document they're asking us to comment on had been the one that was leaked, or if they'd released it themselves for community review in December, things would not be going so badly for them. They would have had more defenders and more fence sitters and there probably would have been a lot more accusations of anyone against it clearly just wanting bigoted content. But that's how these things go. Acceptable today is unacceptable in a week and insulting dogshit in two weeks.
 
I do not see the logic in saying WotC messed up D&D editions before and managed to recover market dominance (in fact twice if you count recovering from the mess TSR left) and yet their current failed strategy cannot be recovered from?
(I am not wishing them success but history tells us that it is at least possible).
James Gillen James Gillen got it.

By destroying their own OGL's Network of Externalities, they will never get the whole hobby on board again. Even 3PP who had their own system wrote 5e content. No more and never again. Even if the law is there, the trust isn't, because again, who has the cash to go the distance right or not.
 
I did say that in my survey response somewhere. That WotC has neither the capacity or the in-house talent to satisfy the needs of their customes. The fucking dicks. Didn't say that last part though.
I wonder if they’re hoping to use ChatGPT or whatever not (only) as a live GM but as a designer of adventures. If so, good luck to that. At least, I played around with chatgpt to see if it could create a character. I realized that since it is trained on text scraped off the net, it produced utterly derivative crap, reminiscent of the worst 3-page backstories you’ve ever seen. It is good at synthesizing facts but creativity is another matter.

That said I know there are tools out there that try to be more creative—with some authors even making use of them—but they need a lot of editing/redirection to be useful.
 
The really cynical part f me suggests that they aren't going to read any of the survey responses but simply look at how many people finished the survey as a measure of customer engagement and use that as proof they can simply roll forward with their plans as they like.
"So many of you responded despite the 'boycotts', we at WotC see that as a sign of positive engagement! Looking at the numbers of you who took the time to fill out the survey, we've decided that OGL 1.0a is barely an inconvenience! Also you're all immoral until such time as we say you've passed the morality check!"
 
The really cynical part of me suggests that they aren't going to read any of the survey responses but simply look at how many people finished the survey as a measure of customer engagement.
But how will that help them? The only reason they're even doing surveys, walking back stuff etc is because the whole thing blew up in their faces. Or do you think they're just hoping for everything to quiet down over the next couple of weeks and then come out with "everyone was so positive so we don't need to change anything"? Because that won't get any customers back.
 
But how will that help them? The only reason they're even doing surveys, walking back stuff etc is because the whole thing blew up in their faces. Or do you think they're just hoping for everything to quiet down over the next couple of weeks and then come out with "everyone was so positive so we don't need to change anything"? Because that won't get any customers back.

I think that's assuming a level of cognizance & competence that I'm not certain is at play. I'm imagining just what upper management can present at a stockholder meeting and spin in a way to assuage fears "see this is just a storm in a teapot and will all blow over by the time we roll out the new edition"
 
I think that's assuming a level of cognizance & competence that I'm not certain is at play. I'm imagining just what upper management can present at a stockholder meeting and spin in a way to assuage fears "see this is just a storm in a teapot and will all blow over by the time we roll out the new edition"
Oh, sure, they could just be doing that and not be aware that it's likely to blow up in their faces, I agree with that.
 
I've seen some tenatively positive comments in 5e circles on social media. The hateful content clause seems to be the bigger sticking point but that may also because all the copyright and IP issues are above most people's heads.
I'm seeing a lot of comments along the lines of "well WotC are obviously not going to budge on the deauthorisation so we're going to have to work with them to make the new OGL the best it can be."

Which I think is fucked, but probably not surprising.

This of course is kind of the point of the survey process, is to bring these people back in, by pretending they're being listened to.
 
I'm seeing a lot of comments along the lines of "well WotC are obviously not going to budge on the deauthorisation so we're going to have to work with them to make the new OGL the best it can be."

Which I think is fucked, but probably not surprising.

This of course is kind of the point of the survey process, is to bring these people back in, by pretending they're being listened to.
Or. Or. Or.. not work with them at all.
 
I wonder what WotC is waiting for? I'm assuming at this point most folks who are going to do the survey have commented. They had to have some idea of what % answer a new OGL was going to be a plausible business opportunity. Either they have it or they don't.
In my bubble no one is buying either the NFT or protect the brand arguments. Seems to me every day this drags on they loose more customers, look worse. Am I crazy for thinking that? I know I'm biased as hell but I just don't see people saying this new OGL looks good/workable.
Because they don't understand the TTRPG community at all.

They clearly were not expecting lawyers, who are part of the community, to pick apart OGL1.1 (or 1.2).

They are following the corporate SOP of hiding their head in the sand until they think it's safe and we have forgotten.

In four weeks, when they think most of the ire has been spent shouting into the specially prepared jar, they'll spin the results and maybe declare success or if there is still a storm brewing they can see, bring out an OGL 1.3 with even shadier language the gamer community lawyers will tell us is still best used as toilet paper. Then, they will likely kick the can down the road again, each time claiming they are repairing their relationship with the community. Look at us, working together!
But how will that help them? The only reason they're even doing surveys, walking back stuff etc is because the whole thing blew up in their faces. Or do you think they're just hoping for everything to quiet down over the next couple of weeks and then come out with "everyone was so positive so we don't need to change anything"? Because that won't get any customers back.
Unfortunately, they likely will. People who don't pay much or enough attention. People who just want to get back to playing D&D. People who never understood what the kerfuffle was about in the first place.

That's not everyone, but it is some. Those individuals will draw others back or draw in new people.

Corporations don't care about retention anymore. Not of customers, not of employees. Amazon works like this; the average turn over rate is three months. An Amazon employee isn't even fully trained until 6 months. But Amazon has shown it not only works, they make money doing it.

They just need a fresh crop of bodies.
 
Or. Or. Or.. not work with them at all.
Well yes, but you need to be willing to cut that tie.

At a certain point people who aren't willing to work with them aren't going to have much to say because nothing substantive is changing.

I did the first survey, but I'm not going to do the second one if all it is a slightly changed reiteration of the first.

They're probably hoping that the people who continue to engage can be drawn back in gradually by feeling that they being listened to (and forgetting the whole thing is based on a giant lie).

The people who don't engage they will be hoping they can eventually draw back through the effects of network externalities. (ie they cool down and realise that everyone else is busy playing One D&D and so they jump back in).
 
Because they don't understand the TTRPG community at all.

They clearly were not expecting lawyers, who are part of the community, to pick apart OGL1.1 (or 1.2).

They are following the corporate SOP of hiding their head in the sand until they think it's safe and we have forgotten.

In four weeks, when they think most of the ire has been spent shouting into the specially prepared jar, they'll spin the results and maybe declare success or if there is still a storm brewing they can see, bring out an OGL 1.3 with even shadier language the gamer community lawyers will tell us is still best used as toilet paper. Then, they will likely kick the can down the road again, each time claiming they are repairing their relationship with the community. Look at us, working together!

Unfortunately, they likely will. People who don't pay much or enough attention. People who just want to get back to playing D&D. People who never understood what the kerfuffle was about in the first place.

That's not everyone, but it is some. Those individuals will draw others back or draw in new people.

It is some, but Hasbro wanted to increase their revenue from D&D, not decrease it. And the fewer people playing D&D, the fewer new gamers will be brought in to D&D. Especially if, like I believe, the frustration is worse among GMs than it is among players. The network effects will cease to function as they're supposed to and the result will be that D&D ends up shrinking, not growing. And that result is not what the executives who thought this hare-brained scheme up wanted. They could have changed nothing and kept steadily increasing profits.

Corporations don't care about retention anymore. Not of customers, not of employees. Amazon works like this; the average turn over rate is three months. An Amazon employee isn't even fully trained until 6 months. But Amazon has shown it not only works, they make money doing it.

They just need a fresh crop of bodies.
Amazon definitely cares about customer retention. Without it, with a company as big as Amazon, you're going to run out of potential new customers fairly soon. D&D isn't amazon, there's a lot of potential players out there, but it is also a social game and that requires a social group to enter. Not caring about customer retention doesn't mean that's going to work out the way they want it to.
 
Well yes, but you need to be willing to cut that tie.

At a certain point people who aren't willing to work with them aren't going to have much to say because nothing substantive is changing.

I did the first survey, but I'm not going to do the second one if all it is a slightly changed reiteration of the first.

They're probably hoping that the people who continue to engage can be drawn back in gradually by feeling that they being listened to (and forgetting the whole thing is based on a giant lie).

The people who don't engage they will be hoping they can eventually draw back through the effects of network externalities. (ie they cool down and realise that everyone else is busy playing One D&D and so they jump back in).
The problem with that idea is the network externalities will very likely start to work against WotC at that point. All the cool kids are jumping ship to other games, that's going to encourage others to do the same. Soon, the D&D bubble, while still big, won't be as massive. Every person who stops playing D&D to play something else is damaging the bubble.

I think Hasbro thinks they have time and need to wait this out. I think that is the opposite of correct. I think that the more time goes by without fixing this, the worse it will be for them.
 
If the recent leaks are to be trusted Hasbro have basically set a massive increase of profit goal for D&D. That pretty much explains what's happening because it requires radical action to be possible.

In that context, trying their digital strategy and failing is not any worse (for the people in charge of D&D) than keeping on with what they were previously doing and also failing to meet those targets.

A bird in the hand may be worth two in the bush and all that, but if you've been told your job is to get two birds than you're going bush.
 
The problem with that idea is the network externalities will very likely start to work against WotC at that point. All the cool kids are jumping ship to other games, that's going to encourage others to do the same. Soon, the D&D bubble, while still big, won't be as massive. Every person who stops playing D&D to play something else is damaging the bubble.

I think Hasbro thinks they have time and need to wait this out. I think that is the opposite of correct. I think that the more time goes by without fixing this, the worse it will be for them.
Well I certainly hope it doesn't work out for them.

(Personally I think the value of the brand "Dungeons and Dragons" is probably a lot more flimsy than Hasbro are counting on)
 
If the recent leaks are to be trusted Hasbro have basically set a massive increase of profit goal for D&D. That pretty much explains what's happening because it requires radical action to be possible.

In that context, trying their digital strategy and failing is not any worse (for the people in charge of D&D) than keeping on with what they were previously doing and also failing to meet those targets.

A bird in the hand may be worth two in the bush and all that, but if you've been told your job is to get two birds than you're going bush.
Which is why I think it is important that executives end up getting the axe for this, hard, in a way that damages their careers so they can never get another executive job again. Because the next person who shows up at Hasbro and thinks "maybe I should fuck around with D&D" needs to be able to be told "last person who tried that got fired and blacklisted and is working as a retail clerk now". Harsh and direct consequences for the actual executives may be a counter to executives trying this in the future. If it isn't just the company but your entire future career in management you put on the line, people might think twice.
 
Well yes, but you need to be willing to cut that tie.

At a certain point people who aren't willing to work with them aren't going to have much to say because nothing substantive is changing.

I did the first survey, but I'm not going to do the second one if all it is a slightly changed reiteration of the first.

They're probably hoping that the people who continue to engage can be drawn back in gradually by feeling that they being listened to (and forgetting the whole thing is based on a giant lie).

The people who don't engage they will be hoping they can eventually draw back through the effects of network externalities. (ie they cool down and realise that everyone else is busy playing One D&D and so they jump back in).
Is there a second one already?
 
Well I certainly hope it doesn't work out for them.

(Personally I think the value of the brand "Dungeons and Dragons" is probably a lot more flimsy than Hasbro are counting on)
Yeah, I don't think the film is going to do that well either. Especially now, but even before this, it wasn't exactly a must see for me, and I'm a player of D&D (or was). There's just not much to the brand, outside of the actual roleplaying game.
 
It is some, but Hasbro wanted to increase their revenue from D&D, not decrease it. And the fewer people playing D&D, the fewer new gamers will be brought in to D&D. Especially if, like I believe, the frustration is worse among GMs than it is among players. The network effects will cease to function as they're supposed to and the result will be that D&D ends up shrinking, not growing. And that result is not what the executives who thought this hare-brained scheme up wanted. They could have changed nothing and kept steadily increasing profits.


Amazon definitely cares about customer retention. Without it, with a company as big as Amazon, you're going to run out of potential new customers fairly soon. D&D isn't amazon, there's a lot of potential players out there, but it is also a social game and that requires a social group to enter. Not caring about customer retention doesn't mean that's going to work out the way they want it to.
As I said and it bears repeating, the execs at WotC have no understanding of the TTRPG community.

The following is all educated speculation and opinion. The top three execs likely pushing for this are former Microsoft and Amazon employees. They likely see D&D as an OS like Windows and everyone else as Apple or Linux. They operate by buying out the competition or flat outspending them or offering a product no one else has. If their corporate environment was anything like the one I left, even the person they take lunch with or play racquetball with wants their job. It's a shark tank.

Our hobby fosters cooperation and heavily uses and improves the unwritten social contracts most people blissfully take for granted. We understand actions have consequences beyond an immediate future, beyond ourselves.

We have a hard time accepting and understanding a move like this due to these factors. And these execs either cannot or do not want to understand the community they are now a part of.

Yes, they want to grow the brand, but they're damaging it and they don't understand the backlash other than that it is bigger than they anticipated and via the leaks we know they think we're blowing it out of proportion. So they are trying to ride out the storm. Just like some tried to do with other scandals in the last 5 years. Sometimes it works.

They don't understand we take notes and memorize thick blocks of text. We will remember.
No but I think there will be.
As do I.
 
Rani: No, I don't think you're wrong. I think WotC is fucking up, because they don't understand that sometimes you have to act quickly and get out in front of the problem, rather than hang back and wait for it to blow over. And what they've offered so far is clearly not a good enough response for people now, and it will look even worse in February. I also think that, if the current document they're asking us to comment on had been the one that was leaked, or if they'd released it themselves for community review in December, things would not be going so badly for them. They would have had more defenders and more fence sitters and there probably would have been a lot more accusations of anyone against it clearly just wanting bigoted content. But that's how these things go. Acceptable today is unacceptable in a week and insulting dogshit in two weeks.

James Gillen James Gillen got it.

By destroying their own OGL's Network of Externalities, they will never get the whole hobby on board again. Even 3PP who had their own system wrote 5e content. No more and never again. Even if the law is there, the trust isn't, because again, who has the cash to go the distance right or not.

My theory is that precisely because they did this before with 4th Edition and the GSL and it didn't work to have two separate licenses (because everyone just kept using the one from before), they decided that if they wanted to clamp down on third parties they needed to make the whole thing a fait accompli and not tell anyone. But then they also think it's a good idea to not have third party content.

JG
 
The really cynical part of me suggests that they aren't going to read any of the survey responses but simply look at how many people finished the survey as a measure of customer engagement.
That's basically why Tim Kask is saying not to do the survey. I suspect that even if someone is looking at the responses, that person or people is not going to be the one making the final decisions.

JG
 
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