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As someone who stuck with 2nd edition, how enthusiastic or not should I be from the phrase "from the developers of 6th edition"?
That's where I sit. Though I'm concerned that their are no shifters but dragon's written up so far.Heh. Well, I haven't played anything newer than 3E myself. From what I understand, 6E is a marked improvement over 5E (after some major editing fails in the first 6E printing were corrected), and on about the level of 4E now.
Major editing = 10 pages of errata on release day!Heh. Well, I haven't played anything newer than 3E myself. From what I understand, 6E is a marked improvement over 5E (after some major editing fails in the first 6E printing were corrected), and on about the level of 4E now.
With all the funnery around 1d&d, it seems like escaping the curse of the 6th edition is impossible!Was interested until I saw the "developers of 6E."
As a HERO fan, I'm thinking 6th Edition of anything may be bad news.
JG
Is there, though?I like the idea. There is definitely a market for a less crunchy Shadowrun.
I know that every itch-user and their black metal band mates are doing "SR in 8 pages" games these days,
Shadowrun in the Sprawl - PbTa, of course, I think based on The SprawlDo you know of any specific ones? I'd be keen to take a look at some of them.
Runners in the Shadows is Forged in the Dark and is far away enough from PbtA that most who dig PbtA hate FitD. I like FitD and despise PbtA (at least I'll never run it).Runners in the Shadows - power by that other powered by game that isn't PbtA
Neon City Overdrive - actually has its own engine!
Savage Worlds has one I believe, as does 5e.I like the idea. There is definitely a market for a less crunchy Shadowrun.
I wonder whether the recent CC-ification of the 5.1 SRD will actually serve to increase the amount of 5E secondary rulesets. By that I mean not jumping full on the D&D rules train like the D20 era caused a lot of publishers to do, but "just" releasing an additional core rulebook using the 5E rules, whether that's a true secondary line or a one-off book. Both Symbaroum and The One Ring did this, and I think there's something similar for Numenera, too. Serves to either rope in the numerous 5E players to your main system or just sell your setting publications to both.Savage Worlds has one I believe, as does 5e.
Welcome to the Pub, opti !Hey chums. I saw Subversion being discussed, so I dropped by to say hi! I'm the lead dev on Subversion, so if you have any questions, feel free to shoot them at me. Yes, I was a dev on Shadowrun 6th ed., but as I've noted elsewhere, the things I wrote were not directly written into the rules by me, and I of course share some of the same frustrations as everyone else does. I don't think Shadowrun is in any danger from Subversion. We're a small time biz and they have all the resources and fan base we don't. Plus, it is a very different gaming experience.
Also, a note about editing. I don't edit my reddit posts, but our games go through extensive editing and revision before launch (see Gangs of the Undercity and Misspent Youth: Fall in Love, Not in Line as examples). And we plan on doing a very public open release of the rules PDF before going to print, so we get community feedback before doing something we'd have to change later.
And in one regard, we are like Pathfinder. We are committed to an open license so folks can use our rules and our world to make games, stories, and monies of their own.
Oh, how interesting. I had not seen EABA before. On first glance, it does seem similar, yes. I'd have to get a bit more into it to do a solid comparison. But yeah, you keep the top three dice and compare the sun to a TN. Depending on how many over the TN you are, it is either a normal or dynamic success.I wonder whether the recent CC-ification of the 5.1 SRD will actually serve to increase the amount of 5E secondary rulesets. By that I mean not jumping full on the D&D rules train like the D20 era caused a lot of publishers to do, but "just" releasing an additional core rulebook using the 5E rules, whether that's a true secondary line or a one-off book. Both Symbaroum and The One Ring did this, and I think there's something similar for Numenera, too. Serves to either rope in the numerous 5E players to your main system or just sell your setting publications to both.
I think this would work especially well for typical 90's systems like Shadowrun or Vampire, games that are still only half a step removed from many D&D tropes.
But to get back on the main topic, and as we have opti as a designer here.
xd6k3 sounds a lot like EABA. Does this mean adding the top three to compare against a target number or the old-school individual target numbers, so you'd get at most three successes?
How would this handle the two (IMHO) most problematic areas of Shadowrun, the two almost completely separated other playing boards, i.e. the Matrix and astral space? A lot of players like hacking or the whole spiritual thing with otherworldly planes, but they also distract a lot from the regular, real-world gameplay. It's quite hard to square the circle here, later Shadowruns seem to have adopted the Cybergeneration "fix", where it's 90s fad "augmented reality" instead of 80s fad "virtual reality".
(Never mind the horrible real-world spying astral space usage that put high-level D&D to shame when it came to micturating in the GM's broth)
Also, for the tacticool faction amongst the players: Any difference between the damage output of light handguns, heavy handguns and SMGs? ;)
Answered EABA above!Welcome to the Pub, opti !
So why did you decide to call it Subversion?
Also, the mechanic reminds me of EABAv2, which is also "roll x dice, keep 3" (and of an unpublished homebrew, which was roll X, keep2). Are you using EABA, or is it a random coincidence?
...just to clarify, I typed that before Sosthenes had posted. I guess we started posting more or less simultaneously!
OTOH, it tends to have more lethal consequences in SR...Nothing more natural than getting ninja'd in a SR thread.
OK, I'm a player. "I hack into the security cameras".Oh, how interesting. I had not seen EABA before. On first glance, it does seem similar, yes. I'd have to get a bit more into it to do a solid comparison. But yeah, you keep the top three dice and compare the sun to a TN. Depending on how many over the TN you are, it is either a normal or dynamic success.
Regarding the mini games like SR, we don't have that. The same basic mechanic is in play throughout the game, and while there are some specific rules here and there for combat, hacking, social stuff, etc, it follows the same basic mechanic and really doesn't encourage one person in a group to spend lots of time doing x without the others. If that's too vague, I can clarify.
Regarding weapons, there are differences in types of weapons, but it won't be as granular as SR for sure. However, instead of having tons of fun or stabby implement variations, you'll be able to upgrade/mod your weapons for a pretty good number of options.
The GM has a few options. If they want to make it really cinematic, they can have the other players fighting or protecting while the hack is happening.OTOH, it tends to have more lethal consequences in SR...
OK, I'm a player. "I hack into the security cameras".
You're the referee. What do you do?
I hope so, I mean lets be honest Dark Matter does Rifts, better than well Rifts.I wonder whether the recent CC-ification of the 5.1 SRD will actually serve to increase the amount of 5E secondary rulesets. By that I mean not jumping full on the D&D rules train like the D20 era caused a lot of publishers to do, but "just" releasing an additional core rulebook using the 5E rules, whether that's a true secondary line or a one-off book. Both Symbaroum and The One Ring did this, and I think there's something similar for Numenera, too. Serves to either rope in the numerous 5E players to your main system or just sell your setting publications to both.
I think this would work especially well for typical 90's systems like Shadowrun or Vampire, games that are still only half a step removed from many D&D tropes.
I liked EABA in the same way I used to like Runequest, or Mythras - but it is too gritty, and even the additional rulesets in Mythras Companion does not really get away from that.sounds a lot like EABA. Does this mean adding the top three to compare against a target number or the old-school individual target numbers, so you'd get at most three successes?
How would this handle the two (IMHO) most problematic areas of Shadowrun, the two almost completely separated other playing boards, i.e. the Matrix and astral space? A lot of players like hacking or the whole spiritual thing with otherworldly planes, but they also distract a lot from the regular, real-world gameplay. It's quite hard to square the circle here, later Shadowruns seem to have adopted the Cybergeneration "fix", where it's 90s fad "augmented reality" instead of 80s fad "virtual reality".
(Never mind the horrible real-world spying astral space usage that put high-level D&D to shame when it came to micturating in the GM's broth)
Also, for the tacticool faction amongst the players: Any difference between the damage output of light handguns, heavy handguns and SMGs? ;)
Welcome, I'm an old time Shadowrun 1E/4E-20a/6E fan, but I'd love to see a streamlined system (other than Anarchy.) What is the mythology you are using? Is it very British (i.e the Elves in Shadowrun take British naming a bit and their feeling is that, rather than Norse)Hey chums. I saw Subversion being discussed, so I dropped by to say hi! I'm the lead dev on Subversion, so if you have any questions, feel free to shoot them at me. Yes, I was a dev on Shadowrun 6th ed., but as I've noted elsewhere, the things I wrote were not directly written into the rules by me, and I of course share some of the same frustrations as everyone else does. I don't think Shadowrun is in any danger from Subversion. We're a small time biz and they have all the resources and fan base we don't. Plus, it is a very different gaming experience.
Also, a note about editing. I don't edit my reddit posts, but our games go through extensive editing and revision before launch (see Gangs of the Undercity and Misspent Youth: Fall in Love, Not in Line as examples). And we plan on doing a very public open release of the rules PDF before going to print, so we get community feedback before doing something we'd have to change later.
And in one regard, we are like Pathfinder. We are committed to an open license so folks can use our rules and our world to make games, stories, and monies of their own.
Yeah, its a bit more crunchy than Anarchy, but I think streamlined is a good word.Welcome, I'm an old time Shadowrun 1E/4E-20a/6E fan, but I'd love to see a streamlined system (other than Anarchy.) What is the mythology you are using? Is it very British (i.e the Elves in Shadowrun take British naming a bit and their feeling is that, rather than Norse)
Please do. I mean, the hacker doing their own thing to get information, or talk to AIs has been a cyberpunk trope since at least Neuromancer. About the only game I can remember that doesn't do that in a "separate world" is Hardwired, where it's just regular skill rolls.The same basic mechanic is in play throughout the game, and while there are some specific rules here and there for combat, hacking, social stuff, etc, it follows the same basic mechanic and really doesn't encourage one person in a group to spend lots of time doing x without the others. If that's too vague, I can clarify.
Hopefully not in the same way all these modern superhero movies and shows "subvert" superhero tropes…We also tried to subvert RPG tropes whenever we could, and there are endless ways I could point to for that.
Please do. I mean, the hacker doing their own thing to get information, or talk to AIs has been a cyberpunk trope since at least Neuromancer. About the only game I can remember that doesn't do that in a "separate world" is Hardwired, where it's just regular skill rolls.
So does it come down to this, "I want to get the file for the CTO's third wife" = "just do a skill roll"?
What about "shadowing" the real-world party and providing some support. Outside of Cyberpunk, think Zoe from the 24 TV show. "Accessing security cameras and map now. Okay, go to the elevator shaft, I'll open it for you. See you 18 floors up."
Hopefully not in the same way all these modern superhero movies and shows "subvert" superhero tropes…
Care to point to a few of them? ;)
Very cool, that's different. I've been working on a home game currently nicknamed "Spellchrome" which allows cybernetics/hacking/Norse myth stuff for the most part, but you can for example have an enchanted cyberarm (magic and tech aren't opposed, just different and stackable.) Th pc's consist of a burned-out biochemist/mage (hippie personality), a somewhat stubborn and nervous hacker, a cyber-dog, and an elf street warrior (with her magic sword albeit the player went for a Celtic background despite the Norse influx.) They're busy running around New Vegas Arcology and dealing with corporations and such. Currently, they've added a teenaged NPC werewolf, and a wee dragon (which may just be a baby they don't know.)Yeah, its a bit more crunchy than Anarchy, but I think streamlined is a good word.
the mythology is primarily Babylonian. But since it is also not in ancient times, we have spend a good bit of time thinking about how mythology and religion change, interact, and syncretize with other elements over time. So while the spine is Babylonian mythology, we tried to assume mythologies from other cultures exist as well. What that looks like in Suvbversion's present is a core of Babylonian gods and religion, but having elements of other cultures mixed in (so for example, Nergal, the Babylonian god of death, is represented as a bugbear in modern warfare attire, while Nabu, the god of wisdom, looks like an elf with the eye patch of Odin and the staff of Hermes). The idea being that when Babylonian culture swept into a new land, their gods, religion, and culture absorbed and syncretized with them.
Elves in Subversion have either a French or Cajun influenced culture.
The idea of 'Shadowrun's Pathfinder' is making me twitch.
Elves in Subversion have either a French or Cajun influenced culture.
I was assuming that to be the Case.If all of them are true, then it may be that the hacker has to achieve a certain amount of progress to succeed.
The problem in cyberpunk games is that "hacker dude" is often considered a niche, a main focus. There's often a big investment into that, either by expensive equipment / foregoing magic etc., or even system-enforced roles (e.g. Cyberpunk 2020's netrunner "class", with exclusive access to 1337 computer skills). Your main role being handled by just some skill roles is often quite boring, even your trap-bypassing rogue often gets more options than that (and complains when the wizard just handles that with some spells).The point being, the complexity/drama of the required roll is up to the GM and the situation, not overly complex hacking rules.
Hey chums. I saw Subversion being discussed, so I dropped by to say hi! I'm the lead dev on Subversion, so if you have any questions, feel free to shoot them at me. Yes, I was a dev on Shadowrun 6th ed., but as I've noted elsewhere, the things I wrote were not directly written into the rules by me, and I of course share some of the same frustrations as everyone else does. I don't think Shadowrun is in any danger from Subversion. We're a small time biz and they have all the resources and fan base we don't. Plus, it is a very different gaming experience.
Also, a note about editing. I don't edit my reddit posts, but our games go through extensive editing and revision before launch (see Gangs of the Undercity and Misspent Youth: Fall in Love, Not in Line as examples). And we plan on doing a very public open release of the rules PDF before going to print, so we get community feedback before doing something we'd have to change later.
And in one regard, we are like Pathfinder. We are committed to an open license so folks can use our rules and our world to make games, stories, and monies of their own.
Yeah, I get that. Cybertech interactions do have more complexity than just skill rolls, but it really depends on your build and what you want to accomplish. Paradigms, sort of mini -classes that specialize your character, have a number of cybertech abilities which let you decide how your tech specialist excels. You can helped your team with buffs in combat, enhance stealth, breach computer systems, break in to places, control drones, and a number of other things.I was assuming that to be the Case.
I'm aware of general "when to roll" theory, I think most people here have been doing this a long time. If your conception of a cyberpunk world contains such ubiquitious things as "Black Ice" and people are hooking up their bare minds to the system, you've got this pretty much by definition. Just like I rarely see it in "trad" games where people just skip combat encounters with "make a Gun roll"…
The problem in cyberpunk games is that "hacker dude" is often considered a niche, a main focus. There's often a big investment into that, either by expensive equipment / foregoing magic etc., or even system-enforced roles (e.g. Cyberpunk 2020's netrunner "class", with exclusive access to 1337 computer skills). Your main role being handled by just some skill roles is often quite boring, even your trap-bypassing rogue often gets more options than that (and complains when the wizard just handles that with some spells).
Otherwise, it actually *is* Pathfinder, where everyone picks a casting class just to fill their time, other niches not being worth it. Then you're just a shooty and/or blasty guy, but with Computer 6 skill. Which might be perfectly okay if it says so on the box, but admittedly rare in the genre, rules-wise.
Does Subversion borrow anything from Shadowrun's background stories? Is it lighter or darker in mood than SR?
Does it have the multiple layers of the world like SR? Physical world, astral, and matrix? How do they work together? There is almost always a bit of a disconnect, a slowdown, of game play when switching back and forth between the players working in the different layers, in Shadowrun. Hopefully Subversion deals with it smoothly.
Which is your favourite edition of Shadowrun?
After watching the fiasco with WotC and their attempt to change the OGL and upend everything that'd happened with OGL stuff over 20 years, are you folks at Fragging Unicorns (hilariously awesome name by the way, Deadpool would approve) willing to write into your gaming license clear language that protects people who use your license, even if sometime down the road your company wants to change it?