Which edition of Boot Hill, or both?

[Toadmaster]

TSRs Boot Hill has a lot of fans, but finding a decent copy at a reasonable price has been challenging.

I remember playing a bazillion years ago, but remember very little about the game, but it was almost certainly 2nd ed.

I see DrivethruRPG now offers pdf and POD versions of both 2nd & 3rd edition, as well as numerous modules for a lot less than the ebay asking prices.

Wondering which is considered superior, is 3rd just added rules to 2nd, or a major change. Is there any value in getting booth, maybe pdf of the less useful and print of the better one?

Wikipedia describes 1st and 2nd ed as mostly a minis game, and 3rd not much more detailed but some say the same about early D&D so not sure how much stock I put in that.

I know we ran a short campaign (combat was pretty deadly and we were probably 12-ish, so heavy emphasis on short...) and we role played about the same as we did with D&D.
Again 12-ish, so kill and take their stuff, with perhaps a "good day kind shop keeper, would you like to buy these boots and saddles we.. um, found?", or "where is the saloon?" being the extent of role playing.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

Paging Dumarest and Black Vulmea , come in Dumarest and Black Vulmea.

 

[Dumarest]

...is 3rd just added rules to 2nd, or a major change. Is there any value in getting booth, maybe pdf of the less useful and print of the better one?

My avatar's* ears are burning.

The two have nothing in common except a shared name and the same publisher. 2nd edition is essentially a set of rules to adjudicate gunfights, knife fights, fistfights, tracking, and gambling, with pretty well no social rules or even rules about cattle, ranching, prospecting, horses, or anything else. I find it more fun to roleplay all the rest and use my own knowledge and reference material for all the stuff that isn't covered in 2nd edition. The actual rules take up maybe 20 pages. I find it has all I need.

3rd edition has nothing to do with 2nd edition and is more like a late '80s/early '90s RPG in that it tries to cover everything with a comprehensive skill list. Some people like that. I have it as well and it's not bad by any means but it's much more rules-heavy and less freeform. About the only rules I ever use from it are the fun ones for giving horses different traits, tricks, and levels of intelligence.

If I could only have one, I'd take 2nd edition and fill in the blanks with my own knowledge and reference library. But if you like big skills lists and rules to cover various situations that might come up rather than relying on your own wit, wisdom, knowledge, and common sense, 3rd edition is a good game for you. Both are infinitely better than any other Western RPGs I have tried (Sidewinder, Aces & Eights). Whichever edition you get, you'll want to research a time and place to set it even if you use the "Promise City" included in the rules as it's no more than a locale for you to develop as you see fit.

If you have any particular questions, let me know.

We tried a play-by-post of 2nd edition here at the Pub a while back:
https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/boot-hill-el-camino-del-diablo.1061/

https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/boot-hill-el-camino-del-diablo-character-records.1059/

https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/interest-check-boot-hill-2nd-edition.1037/

I made a mistake by not starting the PCs off in Tucson, I think, with various situations already boiling over for them to get involved in. The Camino del Diablo set-up would've worked better for an in-person game as the events could've transpired in maybe 2 sessions and people would've probably stayed more interested. I wouldn't be averse to trying again using Promise City as a backdrop this time.

* The inestimable Henry Darrow (real name: Enrique Tomás Delgado Jiménez) as Manolito Montoya, my all-time favorite Western character.

​

 

[Dumarest]

Oh, and if you want a more developed setting than Promise City without having to work it all up on your own, Devil's Gulch from Chaosium is pretty good as it has two listings for everything: one without and one with the supernatural junk I abhor. I have borrowed elements from it for use with 2nd edition Boot Hill; it has useful NPC ideas and the town map and layout is pretty good. It was written for BRP but adapting it is child's play.

​

 

[Voros]

Oh, and if you want a mire developed setting than Promise City without having to work it all up on your own, Devil's Gulch from Chaosium is pretty good as it has two listings for everything: one without and one with the supernatural junk I abhor. I have borrowed elements from it for use with 2nd edition Boot Hill; it has useful NPC ideas and the town map and layout is pretty good. It was written for BRP but adapting it is child's play.

View attachment 5142 View attachment 5143​

This looks cool, what is the supernatural element? Is there anything you get in Boot Hill that BRP doesn’t have?

 

[Dumarest]

This looks cool, what is the supernatural element? Is there anything you get in Boot Hill that BRP doesn’t have?

Just the usual "Indians have real magic! Werewolves are real!" claptrap that it seems most gamers can't do without. Nothing remotely original or as interesting as the reality of the Old West. Boot Hill has far better combat, much faster to adjudicate and more realistic and deadly results.

 

[Toadmaster]

I've run / played in Westerns with crunchier games (HERO, GURPS) and while fun, they don't really seem to fit so well.

BRP also has Down Darker Trails which can be run straight without the Cthulhu bits. I agree that Westerns do seem to be a genre where a little less rules is not a bad thing. Deadly weapons, bad attitudes, no armor what could go wrong... I don't mind a little weirdness in Westerns but prefer to keep it at the level of The Wild Wild West (Robert Conrad and Ross Martin, not the movie from the 1990s).

Straight historical is overlooked for all the interesting stuff there is to play with, supernatural stuff is not needed to make it interesting.


Completely different combat systems between 2E and 3E then?

I like what you say about 2nd ed, but it sounds like there is some value in getting both. $30 for both in print wont kill me, I just didn't want to do that and then get a lot of duplication or find one edition wasn't worth bothering with. Still a much better price than the $150+ some are trying to get on ebay.

I haven't done play by post, but if that flies again, I'd be game to give it a try.

 

[Dumarest]

Completely different combat systems between 2E and 3E then?

Totally distinct. If the games didn't go by the same name/publisher, you would not think they were any more related than DC Heroes and Marvel Super Heroes.

I like what you say about 2nd ed, but it sounds like there is some value in getting both. $30 for both in print wont kill me, I just didn't want to do that and then get a lot of duplication or find one edition wasn't worth bothering with.

No duplication. Utterly different games with the same name.

I haven't done play by post, but if that flies again, I'd be game to give it a try.

If and when, I'll put up an "interest check." I'd be out of my mind to start one now, though, as I'm already committed to three others!

 

[Black Vulmea]

If you want a pretty traditional roleplaying game - a darn good one, in fact - choose 3e.

If you want a peek at the earliest days of the hobby and are comfortable with ad hocing a boatload of stuff, choose 2e.

If money's no object, get both - I doubt you'll regret it.

 

[Endless Flight]

Third is a great edition. My favorite because I like those rules in there. I actually wish it was a little bit denser.

 

[Doc Sammy]

I like Second Edition, personally. It's a lot more lethal but it's also a lot more freeform.

 

[Ronin]

I have no experience with Boot Hill. So I can't comment on that. But All Flesh Must Be Eaten, with the FIst Full of Zombies supplement stripped of the zombie stuff, is a great straight western game. I have run that and like it very much.

 

[Toadmaster]

If you want a pretty traditional roleplaying game - a darn good one, in fact - choose 3e.

If you want a peek at the earliest days of the hobby and are comfortable with ad hocing a boatload of stuff, choose 2e.

If money's no object, get both - I doubt you'll regret it.

The budget pot is definitely not bottomless, but looking at $11 for 2E and $21 for 3E, I've spent more taking the family to Burger King, so it won't break me and I'm sure will be more enjoyable. The responses are pretty evenly divided between the two which is good enough for me. I was leaning that way anyway, unless there was a very strong bias towards one.

I have no experience with Boot Hill. So I can't comment on that. But All Flesh Must Be Eaten, with the FIst Full of Zombies supplement stripped of the zombie stuff, is a great straight western game. I have run that and like it very much.

I've got AFMBE and it seemed an interesting system for running a zombie game. Never actually played it though and haven't looked at it in quite some time.

 

[Dumarest]

I have no experience with Boot Hill.

​

 

[finarvyn]

I own 1E, 2E, and 3E Boot Hill and have played each.

I like Second Edition, personally. It's a lot more lethal but it's also a lot more freeform.

Agreed. I cut my teeth on 1E Boot Hill and 2E is just an expansion of the same system, mostly reorganization, but pretty much the same. Simple combat, easy to create characters, open to hand-waving. ("Freeform.")

3E is presented a lot like a traditional RPG. Not a bad thing, but I feel like somehow they beat the charm out of the thing in the process of making it more mainstream.

 

[Séadna]

If I could only have one, I'd take 2nd edition and fill in the blanks with my own knowledge and reference library. But if you like big skills lists and rules to cover various situations that might come up rather than relying on your own wit, wisdom, knowledge, and common sense, 3rd edition is a good game for you. Both are infinitely better than any other Western RPGs I have tried (Sidewinder, Aces & Eights).

What's Aces and Eights like? Rules too detailed or was it the alt history that turned you off?

 

[Dumarest]

What's Aces and Eights like? Rules too detailed or was it the alt history that turned you off?

Well...I find D&D mechanics a poor fit for the genre, the alternative history took up waaaaay too much space and was laughably bad anyway, even the lists of suggested names for characters from different backgrounds were poorly researched, and it was too crunchy and overcomplicated. The shot clock was an interesting idea but adding playing cards felt more like a gimmick than an innovation and only resulted in extra steps to resolve gunfights. I just didn't think there was much to recommend it.

 

[finarvyn]

It's been a while since I looked at my Aces & Eights book, but my memory tells me that it's essentially AD&D Wild West. Except that it's really HackMaster 4E Wild West since they took AD&D and injected it with steroids to create Hackmaster. Basic ideas from AD&D but the expanded stat charts from HM, an unusual "shot chart" for hits, and so on.

 

[Toadmaster]

It's been a while since I looked at my Aces & Eights book, but my memory tells me that it's essentially AD&D Wild West. Except that it's really HackMaster 4E Wild West since they took AD&D and injected it with steroids to create Hackmaster. Basic ideas from AD&D but the expanded stat charts from HM, an unusual "shot chart" for hits, and so on.

I would not have guessed that. I've noticed with the exception of the Western supplements for generic systems, there seems to be a strong tendency towards using unusual game mechanics (cards, tokens, custom dice, goat sacrifice...) with a large number of those I've found.

That in addition to the heavy bias towards alt-history and a focus on the supernatural, it is becoming clear to me why Boot Hill gets mentioned so frequently when people ask for western game suggestions.


Are you familiar with Millenniums End? It also had a shot overlay which at least from how I've heard A&E's method described sounds quite similar.

 

[Ronin]

View attachment 5148​

 

[Dumarest]

​

 

[Drake]

Back in the days of yore, when I was a young 'un, 2nd edition was the game I ran for an entire Summer. There was little subtlety to it, but that game was a blast. If you do run it, do yourself a favor and roll up a big mess o' NPCs. They're great fun to roll up, they fit on an index card and you never know when you'll need a gunman or two to pin down your PCs in a hidden canyon after they rob the bank.

And they will rob the bank. Western banks are like catnip to players. They just sit there, full of money, looking fat and easy. The temptation will eventually overwhelm them.

 

[Dumarest]

And they will rob the bank. Western banks are like catnip to players. They just sit there, full of money, looking fat and easy. The temptation will eventually overwhelm them.

I find it highly amusing how ordinary, pacific, law-abiding players immediately turn to crime and violence in nearly all RPG settings with little or no prompting.

 

[Teyrnon]

I find it highly amusing how ordinary, pacific, law-abiding players immediately turn to crime and violence in nearly all RPG settings with little or no prompting.

One wonders what that says about players who play extremely upright, steadfastly law-abiding characters.

 

[Toadmaster]

Back in the days of yore, when I was a young 'un, 2nd edition was the game I ran for an entire Summer. There was little subtlety to it, but that game was a blast. If you do run it, do yourself a favor and roll up a big mess o' NPCs. They're great fun to roll up, they fit on an index card and you never know when you'll need a gunman or two to pin down your PCs in a hidden canyon after they rob the bank.

And they will rob the bank. Western banks are like catnip to players. They just sit there, full of money, looking fat and easy. The temptation will eventually overwhelm them.

I don't know, I guess Clint raised me to know right from wrong. Let the bad guys rob the bank, then kill the bad guys and collect the reward money.

 

[Black Vulmea]

I find it highly amusing how ordinary, pacific, law-abiding players immediately turn to crime and violence in nearly all RPG settings with little or no prompting.

One wonders what that says about players who play extremely upright, steadfastly law-abiding characters.

My main - that is, longest surviving - character from our BH campaign went from vaquero to pistolero to marshal to deputy sheriff to ranchero to rustler to hacendado, with some bounty hunting, prospecting, and outright thievery scattered in there at different times.

So, yeah.

 

[Toadmaster]

What was the BH module quality like?

Wondering if they are useful, or just lists of NPCs and ideas easily created by anyone with a little knowledge of the west. Based on the descriptions they don't seem to add anything rules wise and sound like fairly fairly generic plots.

My main - that is, longest surviving - character from our BH campaign went from vaquero to pistolero to marshal to deputy sheriff to ranchero to rustler to hacendado, with some bounty hunting, prospecting, and outright thievery scattered in there at different times.

So, yeah.

So right at home with many historical characters who were lawmen in one territory, and wanted men in another.

 

[Ronin]

View attachment 5158​

 

[Drake]

I find it highly amusing how ordinary, pacific, law-abiding players immediately turn to crime and violence in nearly all RPG settings with little or no prompting.

I think the group I had really enjoyed cutting loose, without any alignments or class restrictions holding them back. It was somewhat akin to the worst guests in the Westworld series, who gleefully shoot androids for little to no reason. Of course, my group consisted entirely of teen-agers, so at least they had an excuse...

In the end they had inflicted enough violence on that poor default Boot Hill town and turned on each other. The carnage was pretty impressive and the victors rode off into the sunset while the losers had their bodies looted by the NPC townsfolk. I figured turnabout was fair play, after all.

 

[Dumarest]

Dead bodies are made for lootin'
And that's just what you'll do
One of these days those NPCs
Are gonna be lootin' you

​

 

[K_Peterson]

I played 2E some as a pre-teen - mostly solo play, but a few gunfights with friends. These days, I'd be more likely to run 3E because I find the system more appealing and more intuitive.

Aces & Eights was horrific to me. Extremely rules heavy. Some of the subsystems were interesting, but those would be parts I'd dissect out of the bloated mass of A&8 and use with BH3e.

 

[Dumarest]

I played 2E some as a pre-teen - mostly solo play, but a few gunfights with friends. These days, I'd be more likely to run 3E because I find the system more appealing and more intuitive.

Aces & Eights was horrific to me. Extremely rules heavy. Some of the subsystems were interesting, but those would be parts I'd dissect out of the bloated mass of A&8 and use with BH3e.

I wouldn't mind incorporating the Aces & Eights shot clock if I were playing 3rd edition Boot Hill. I don't recall what the hit location rules were, or if it even had any--I'd have to check. But 2nd edition Boot Hill already has nice hit location rules built into combat.

How slow/fast did you find gunfights played out in Aces & Eights? One of the things I like about Boot Hill is how fast they play out, how lethal they are, and how little time can elapse between the first shot and the last shot as a result.

 

[K_Peterson]

How slow/fast did you find gunfights played out in Aces & Eights? One of the things I like about Boot Hill is how fast they play out, how lethal they are, and how little time can elapse between the first shot and the last shot as a result.

You know, I owned A&8 for a while, read it a few times, but never got around to playing it, and sold it off a few years ago. So, I didn't get a chance to run any gunfights. The rules did look involved, though. Besides the shot clock, there were targeting silhouettes - the whole thing just seemed a lot to juggle. I'm rather rules-heavy-phobic, though, and it triggered me.

The parts that I thought were interesting about A&8 were the subsystems related to career pursuits(?). Like, there were mechanical guidelines for things like prospecting, or farming, or ranching, or business-ownership. Stuff that would flesh out campaigns (if you chose to use it) for years of in-game play, or perhaps setup multi-generational character play. BH3e introduced rules guidelines for non-gunfighting, career skills; A&8 took that to the nth degree with extensive mechanical frameworks for careers.

Those subsystems might be interesting to use as inspiration, or leveraged if you wanted to further reduce ad hoc refereeing/judging.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

I just picked up the 3rd edition PDF for the hell of it. It looks fine, but I'd still almost certainly run a western with some version of BRP. Devil's Gulch and Aces High (and its setting book, AH: New Mexico) look good to plunder from, but I'm also pretty intrigued with Down Darker Trails for CoC7e. Anyone have it / played it / care to comment?

 

[Toadmaster]

I wouldn't mind incorporating the Aces & Eights shot clock if I were playing 3rd edition Boot Hill. I don't recall what the hit location rules were, or if it even had any--I'd have to check. But 2nd edition Boot Hill already has nice hit location rules built into combat.

How slow/fast did you find gunfights played out in Aces & Eights? One of the things I like about Boot Hill is how fast they play out, how lethal they are, and how little time can elapse between the first shot and the last shot as a result.

I've only skimmed the two so far, but 3rd Ed hit location rules look quite similar to 2nd.

I just picked up the 3rd edition PDF for the hell of it. It looks fine, but I'd still almost certainly run a western with some version of BRP. Devil's Gulch and Aces High (and its setting book, AH: New Mexico) look good to plunder from, but I'm also pretty intrigued with Down Darker Trails for CoC7e. Anyone have it / played it / care to comment?

Down Darker Trails is on my list of things to get, but don't have it yet.

It is a very long list.

I think BRP would be fine for a western game as long as you don't mind repeatedly making new characters. Western games tend towards relatively high body counts, which is why I decided to check out Boot Hill. Violent setting, guns, no armor, no magic healing, medicine of the time is fairly basic = quick chargen a plus.

 

[Endless Flight]

I thought about writing an Old West game since none of them seem to be perfect at what I want. I like rules on making a living (whether it be gambling, law enforcement, big game hunting, etc) and most of them seem short in that regard.

 

[Ronin]

I thought about writing an Old West game since none of them seem to be perfect at what I want. I like rules on making a living (whether it be gambling, law enforcement, big game hunting, etc) and most of them seem short in that regard.

I believe A&8's has that all.

 

[Endless Flight]

I believe A&8's has that all.

It has it but I’m not a fan of their shooting mechanics. Way too fiddly. I want a middle ground between Boot Hill and A&8.

 

[Toadmaster]

The parts that I thought were interesting about A&8 were the subsystems related to career pursuits(?). Like, there were mechanical guidelines for things like prospecting, or farming, or ranching, or business-ownership. Stuff that would flesh out campaigns (if you chose to use it) for years of in-game play, or perhaps setup multi-generational character play. BH3e introduced rules guidelines for non-gunfighting, career skills; A&8 took that to the nth degree with extensive mechanical frameworks for careers.

Those subsystems might be interesting to use as inspiration, or leveraged if you wanted to further reduce ad hoc refereeing/judging.

Rats, now you have me wanting to have a look at A&8s for that. I'm pretty happy with Boot Hill so far, I can see the appeal to 2E for a game centered on gunslingers, but like the added detail of 3E if there are plans to get more in depth into other pursuits. Could be interesting for a game where the PCs have side interests (mining claims, ranches, ownership in gambing houses etc) in addition to more action oriented pursuits.

 

[Toadmaster]

Holy cow, A&8s is nuts, the optional combat rules alone are the size of 2E Boothill. That doesn't even include the 2 or 3 combat supplements they sell separately.

Definitely some cool stuff in there I can steal, but even as a fan of crunchy games I don't see myself playing this.

17 pages of information and rules for ranching, 16 pages for mining, 6 pages of gambling, 10 pages on court hearings and 3 pages of drugs and alcohol. Great stuff as a source book. Strangely no sheep, I guess we know which side of that divide the authors are on.

What a shame they decided to saddle it (rim shot) with a bogus alt-west setting. Had they put the same level of detail into an authentic historical setting that would have made a great resource.