The Martial Arts Thread

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Just for your first point.
Like it or not, that what street fighting looks like... 'Train hard fight easy' as the Marines would say. Most people don't want to train like that because it hurts and tests your metal. You don't have to do it for every session, but students should do it from time to time so at least they know what they are up against when the time comes.

BTW - very very easy to say 'put a joint lock' on someone who's actually trying to punch your head off or bottle you. If you're a police officer or bouncer then you have to do it as part of your job legally. But if you're a private citizen you have to use whatever works at the time.

Secondly,
Very odd... I never actually questioned people's motives for training, why would I? Not sure where you got that from... 'm not questioning the motives of why people train. If you do it as a hobby, sport or for fitness that's totally cool! :smile: But if you do it for self-defence then IMO you need to know what it entails. I'm only being sceptical about the fact that he himself said that 'traditional Okinawan Karate' works for self-defence and bloody kata of all things!
You were questioning the video, which asks, what are you training for and does the style you're training in support it?

As for 'putting a joint lock on,' that's not at all what I meant. I don't have to kick the side of your knee that hard to render you unable to stand. And elbows are a hell of a lot harder than fists. I didn't see either being employed, just a lot of wild swings and splatters of blood. With some shirt grabbing.

As for military training, I think we can all agree that Royal Marines are some people you don't want to mess with. Yet when showing off their skills at this demo, they manage not to actually spill any blood. Unlike the guys in that video you linked, who were just brawling.

 
Distance, timing, lines. These are things that your average scrapper is only intuitively aware of. That said, never underestimate the power of experience and intuition combined. Someone who is starting something is very likely to know a thing or two just based on the fact that most people who start something aren't in their first rodeo.

We're speaking generally here.

There's a limit to what practical street-fighting brawlers can do and practice. Mainly because there is nothing formal about it. They just do it. And people that are like that, that pick fights, tend to not be particularly bright in the first place, so their ceiling tends to be low in terms of what practical. But I *guarantee* you- that no person that considers themselves a brawler/street-fighter/scrapper is putting the time in "free-styling" on the streets that is tactically equivalent (and therefore useful) as someone that is actively wrestling, boxing, BJJ, or any other formal style that works - unless they're doing those things too. Which means they're not really a street-fighter. When I wrestled we spent hours every single-day, hours and hours going full tilt most of the time. That kind of repetition against quality opponents simply can't be duplicated as a street-fighter without you going to jail, or getting killed.

The caveat is true tho. On any given day - the right shot at the right time and it's lights out.


Those early UFC matches were rigged as all hell. I remember renting UFC 1, 2 and 3 on VHS back in the day. And they were, quite frankly, pathetic. The fighters were carefully selected for their lack of experience outside their fields. And Royce Gracie had obviously studied the people who were competing, while the whole field other than him, had no clue what they would be facing.

Untrue. I was actually training with Mits Yamashita who taught sort of as adjunct at the old Torrance Gracie studio when Rorion was running things in the late-80's. The whole lead-up to that was legit (sort of) Rorion and Royce wanted to fill slots, but they didn't want... *wrestlers*. The fights were legit, they were confident they could deal with other traditional martial-artists. In the end, wrestlers got in. As an honest witness - MOST people had never heard of BJJ. If you lived in LA's Southbay, Rickson is a *legend* because he was taking fights with *anyone* right off the street just to prove Gracie Jujutsu was legit. This isn't really new news.

Then the Gracies sold the brand and it went from 'what style is best' to MMA as we know it today.

Not that quite simple. But ultimately true.


There's a very, very good reason not to go to the ground in a fight. It has nothing to do with training, technique or anything. It's quite simply that in a fight, you don't always know if someone has backup. And if you're on the ground, you're wide open for someone to kick you in the head or body, to stab you.

Sure. I hope I wasn't representing grappling as some kind of end-all-be-all to combat. I certainly am not. As someone that has been *caught* in this predicament (and subsequently beaten to death - I needed resuscitation), I can attest to the idea of grappling when fighting multiple opponents is a *BAD* idea. But I confess at the time I was WAY too drunk, and would have lost in a 1-on-1 with anyone... but I digress.

Heh I don't need a video. Been there done that - you wouldn't BELIEVE what's on the Otherside! LOL


Great story. And yeah, boxers are Bad News. I always say if you want to learn how to give and take a punch, do six months of boxing.

Yeah, ironically it was after that particular fight where I got rolled up like a burrito, that I sought Mits - he taught boxing and jujutsu, which was a massively good learning experience. A good boxer - and in reality, it's doesn't have to be just boxing, can be devastating if they're accurate and have good timing. Boxing is a wonderful art to learn - especially in conjunction with grappling.

When it comes to things like headlocks, sure at the dojo I train at, we do several fancy moves to get out of them. But if you can, the best way I can think of to deal with that particular position that we get taught is the 'grab-pull-twist' method. And a good pinch, that works, too. The smaller you can grab, the more it hurts. And more importantly, the more it shocks your nervous system.

As I said, we don't do a nice competition style.

Well the goal should be to *never* let anyone sink a real choke on you. That means (for those that don't know) a clean arm under the chin with their hands locked, or leverage of that arm firmly against your neck *all* the way around. This is why when grappling you want to keep your head as close to the torso of your opponent as possible - especially when you do he take-down.

Most streetfighters think that just because their arm is around your head/neck it's a "headlock" and they're going to choke you into submission. One of the first things you learn in wrestling and BJJ is to stay calm, and as long as you haven't given them position to sink it, they're just pressing on your neck/head but with not enough force to really do anything. There's a whole host of things you can do, depending on the position. If you're standing, this is where wrestlers and judoka are dangerous. While they're busy wasting time/energy hoping you're going to give up (because they don't really know what they're doing) you're manipulating them into the inevitable takedown/throw/trip/drag etc. Then it's time to feast on the gazelle.

Of course going up against a good grappler - this becomes the chess game. As a general rule of thumb - wrestlers are spectacular and clinching, taking people down and maintaining position. But once there - pound-for-pound, I feel BJJ outclasses wrestlers since wrestling doesn't really prepare you to fight from the back, or submissions (in actual sport wrestling) MMA wrestling is a whole new thing (which I can't really speak to but only surmise about). BJJ - I find their takedowns are not as good as wrestling, BUT... most modern BJJ has now absorbed wrestling takedowns into their repertoire. And they certainly train to defend against it. Judo, is useful, but not as dynamic as the others. You can learn a lot of balance skills with Judo and the obvious throws are solid, especially to the uninitiated.
 
Just for your first point.
Like it or not, that what street fighting looks like... 'Train hard fight easy' as the Marines would say. Most people don't want to train like that because it hurts and tests your metal. You don't have to do it for every session, but students should do it from time to time so at least they know what they are up against when the time comes.
Totally agree with both of you, strangely:smile:.

BTW - very very easy to say 'put a joint lock' on someone who's actually trying to punch your head off or bottle you. If you're a police officer or bouncer then you have to do it as part of your job legally. But if you're a private citizen you have to use whatever works at the time.
I don't think he meant "put a jointlock". There's a lot of attacks against joints that don't rely on grasping the enemy... everybody knows about kicking the knee, for the simplest example. And because at least one knee is always between the enemy's body and the ground, roughly at knee's height:wink:.

Edit: OK, good news is I was right. Bad news is I posted after Stevethulhu had posted, too...

Distance, timing, lines. These are things that your average scrapper is only intuitively aware of. That said, never underestimate the power of experience and intuition combined. Someone who is starting something is very likely to know a thing or two just based on the fact that most people who start something aren't in their first rodeo.
That, and angles, and power generation, and defensive structure as a whole...
But then you can be surprised. Some street brawlers actually have formal training, or have come up with their own methods... yes, all of them can think, too (and have various degrees of practice in it, up to and including education degrees:evil:).

Also, someone who isn't in it for the first time is quite likely to use a weapon, unless it's a case of "social violence" (and sometimes even then). But most cases of social violence are quite preventable, the exception being when the guy's just using it as an excuse to go off on someone...
And even then, just leave and he's probably not going to follow. (Also, of course, if he does follow you, you have a very clear argument that it was self-defense and that he started it:devil:).

Those early UFC matches were rigged as all hell. I remember renting UFC 1, 2 and 3 on VHS back in the day. And they were, quite frankly, pathetic. The fighters were carefully selected for their lack of experience outside their fields. And Royce Gracie had obviously studied the people who were competing, while the whole field other than him, had no clue what they would be facing.
Can't blame him. Sounds to me that he did whatever any competitor should have:up:.

Then the Gracies sold the brand and it went from 'what style is best' to MMA as we know it today.
Indeed. But in reality, MMA is becoming more and more of a style itself, the way I see it.
With all that entails, willful "our style is best." ignorance in some of its exponents included...alas.

There's a very, very good reason not to go to the ground in a fight. It has nothing to do with training, technique or anything. It's quite simply that in a fight, you don't always know if someone has backup. And if you're on the ground, you're wide open for someone to kick you in the head or body, to stab you.
Indeed. Add to this that when you're choking someone, his hands are free to pull a knife.
Even worse, you choking him is quite litterally a lethal attack (and arguably beating him when he's down can be treated as such as well, because his body has nowhere else to go and can't "give" to the strike)...so he could even claim he had to protect himself with lethal weapons.
Depends on the applicable law, of course. But in most I'm familiar with, you'd be in for a rude awakening.
As someone* said some time ago, if you put street clothes on MMA fighters and place them in a bar setting, what the camera is going to capture is a street assault like any other. Not self-defence, assault. And that's not likely to go over well in a court. Not when the last 1234567890 CCTV tapes the prosecutor and the judge have both seen were depicting exactly that in pretty much the exact same way (and your technical prowess in this kind of moves doesn't help your case at all).

*Not sure who, exactly, nor does it matter.
Here's a video about some of the problems with dealing with multiple opponents and how that subject is played down. He talks about consensual and non consensual violence, which I find to be a very, very pertinent subject for martial artists. And when you consider that almost half the fights that take place just in the UK involve multiple opponents, then there's a great big elephant in the room. This video contains footage of real world violence. Consider yourself warned.


:up:

And on the topic of grappling, all I can say is, falling on your neck and getting hit solidly in the head are both going to end your fighting participation. And let's not even mention how much a good stick helps in landing that solid hit!
 
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We're speaking generally here.

There's a limit to what practical street-fighting brawlers can do and practice. Mainly because there is nothing formal about it. They just do it. And people that are like that, that pick fights, tend to not be particularly bright in the first place, so their ceiling tends to be low in terms of what practical. But I *guarantee* you- that no person that considers themselves a brawler/street-fighter/scrapper is putting the time in "free-styling" on the streets that is tactically equivalent (and therefore useful) as someone that is actively wrestling, boxing, BJJ, or any other formal style that works - unless they're doing those things too. Which means they're not really a street-fighter. When I wrestled we spent hours every single-day, hours and hours going full tilt most of the time. That kind of repetition against quality opponents simply can't be duplicated as a street-fighter without you going to jail, or getting killed.

The caveat is true tho. On any given day - the right shot at the right time and it's lights out.




Untrue. I was actually training with Mits Yamashita who taught sort of as adjunct at the old Torrance Gracie studio when Rorion was running things in the late-80's. The whole lead-up to that was legit (sort of) Rorion and Royce wanted to fill slots, but they didn't want... *wrestlers*. The fights were legit, they were confident they could deal with other traditional martial-artists. In the end, wrestlers got in. As an honest witness - MOST people had never heard of BJJ. If you lived in LA's Southbay, Rickson is a *legend* because he was taking fights with *anyone* right off the street just to prove Gracie Jujutsu was legit. This isn't really new news.



Not that quite simple. But ultimately true.




Sure. I hope I wasn't representing grappling as some kind of end-all-be-all to combat. I certainly am not. As someone that has been *caught* in this predicament (and subsequently beaten to death - I needed resuscitation), I can attest to the idea of grappling when fighting multiple opponents is a *BAD* idea. But I confess at the time I was WAY too drunk, and would have lost in a 1-on-1 with anyone... but I digress.

Heh I don't need a video. Been there done that - you wouldn't BELIEVE what's on the Otherside! LOL




Yeah, ironically it was after that particular fight where I got rolled up like a burrito, that I sought Mits - he taught boxing and jujutsu, which was a massively good learning experience. A good boxer - and in reality, it's doesn't have to be just boxing, can be devastating if they're accurate and have good timing. Boxing is a wonderful art to learn - especially in conjunction with grappling.



Well the goal should be to *never* let anyone sink a real choke on you. That means (for those that don't know) a clean arm under the chin with their hands locked, or leverage of that arm firmly against your neck *all* the way around. This is why when grappling you want to keep your head as close to the torso of your opponent as possible - especially when you do he take-down.

Most streetfighters think that just because their arm is around your head/neck it's a "headlock" and they're going to choke you into submission. One of the first things you learn in wrestling and BJJ is to stay calm, and as long as you haven't given them position to sink it, they're just pressing on your neck/head but with not enough force to really do anything. There's a whole host of things you can do, depending on the position. If you're standing, this is where wrestlers and judoka are dangerous. While they're busy wasting time/energy hoping you're going to give up (because they don't really know what they're doing) you're manipulating them into the inevitable takedown/throw/trip/drag etc. Then it's time to feast on the gazelle.

Of course going up against a good grappler - this becomes the chess game. As a general rule of thumb - wrestlers are spectacular and clinching, taking people down and maintaining position. But once there - pound-for-pound, I feel BJJ outclasses wrestlers since wrestling doesn't really prepare you to fight from the back, or submissions (in actual sport wrestling) MMA wrestling is a whole new thing (which I can't really speak to but only surmise about). BJJ - I find their takedowns are not as good as wrestling, BUT... most modern BJJ has now absorbed wrestling takedowns into their repertoire. And they certainly train to defend against it. Judo, is useful, but not as dynamic as the others. You can learn a lot of balance skills with Judo and the obvious throws are solid, especially to the uninitiated.

I just want to point out, despite all your martial arts training, you literally died in a street fight. Granted, against multiple opponents. But I think it is worth highlighting for anyone who might think martial arts can protect them against people on the street. I haven't experienced what you experienced (having to be resuscitated is a big deal, most people don't pull through that is my understanding). But in a competition from just getting knocked out and hitting my head on the floor I was told by the paramedic that had I not been wearing headgear, I probably would have died. It actually made me less nervous about competition because the worst thing I could imagine, was kind of out of the way. But it gave me a very healthy respect for how easily a head injury can occur.

My experience has been quite different from yours. I don't get into street fights, but I've learned to be very cautious about getting too confident of my own abilities. This is especially the case when size is a factor. I'm 5'7 and when I used to train, my ideal weight was 146. Technique became much less effective against people as they got larger and larger.
 
I just want to point out, despite all your martial arts training, you literally died in a street fight. Granted, against multiple opponents. But I think it is worth highlighting for anyone who might think martial arts can protect them against people on the street.
Martial arts can protect you in many ways. For starters, you might have the awareness and/or self-discipline to avoid or deescalate a fight:smile:. (Or you might be too busy with training to end in the wrong drinking joint:wink:).

For another option, you might manage to survive long enough to escape a multiple opponents fight, even if you have to fight through the line. Or you can find a narrow way and last long enough for help to arrive, though you're better off not counting on that option unless all other options are off:shade:.

Alas, none of these would be likely to apply when you're drunk as tenbones tenbones mentioned he was at the time of the accident:up:.
 
Martial arts can protect you in many ways. For starters, you might have the awareness and/or self-discipline to avoid or deescalate a fight:smile:. (Or you might be too busy with training to end in the wrong drinking joint:wink:).

For another option, you might manage to survive long enough to escape a multiple opponents fight, even if you have to fight through the line. Or you can find a narrow way and last long enough for help to arrive, though you're better off not counting on that option unless all other options are off:shade:.

Alas, none of these would be likely to apply when you're drunk as tenbones tenbones mentioned he was at the time of the accident:up:.

I am not saying it doesn't help. I just think it is unhealthy to assume it is a shield against getting harmed. I've just had too many experiences where I soundly beaten by someone, despite knowing what I am doing. You can lose because someone is physically stronger than you. You can lose because someone is more skilled than you. You can lose because your conditioning isn't as good as the other person. You can lose because of dumb luck or just making a stupid mistake. Making the wrong choice can get you knocked out. I am just saying, its added padding. It adds very little in the way of certainty. My experience training has led me to appreciate all the things that can go wrong.
 
I am not saying it doesn't help. I just think it is unhealthy to assume it is a shield against getting harmed. I've just had too many experiences where I soundly beaten by someone, despite knowing what I am doing. You can lose because someone is physically stronger than you. You can lose because someone is more skilled than you. You can lose because your conditioning isn't as good as the other person. You can lose because of dumb luck or just making a stupid mistake. Making the wrong choice can get you knocked out. I am just saying, its added padding. It adds very little in the way of certainty. My experience training has led me to appreciate all the things that can go wrong.
With that, I absolutely agree:smile:. Just saying that the usefulness of martial arts in keeping you safe is not only in the physical techniques.
 
A lot has happened since the 90s though. That was still in the heyday of McDojos. MMA and the internet have made people a lot more savvy. And I don't think it is true that everything flies out the window when you go full pelt. Obviously it changes things. The focus becomes the reality of live combat and that makes a difference. Looking at the clip, that is pretty similar to how sparring looked in the sanshou gym I trained at (I didn't watch the whole thing, but what I saw looked kind of close). All I know is, I was there with my old muay thai trainer, and the gym was actually a traditional Kung Fu school that also offered Sanshou. We were there for the sanshou. Everyone else was there for Kung Fu and the Sifu was quite traditional. However he and all of the students were really tough guys from Algeria (where they don't have the hang ups about sparring and full contact that we do). So when we sparred it was full contact and you were never asked to go lighter or easier on anyone. And I definitely saw plenty of traditional things getting used on their end. Again, live sparring means footwork has to be important and different, so it wasn't like they were coming at you with chambered low stances. But I definitely got hit with more traditional style punches and kicks and they hurt. It was also difficult for me and my trainer to deal with contend with them sometimes because we were not accustomed to dealing with their stances and movements the way we were accustomed to dealing with muay thai and MMA guys. I think really, it just means those fancier moves need to be reserved for when the opportunity presents itself. I still used back kick from Taekwondo from time to time. And even chose to use spinning hook on occasion (because if you land it, it can knock someone out very easily). You just have to be very careful about the fancy stuff and only use it if a good opportunity clearly presents itself. Again, I am all for skepticism. But a lot of the skeptical styles have now become their own style, and the limit of that is, they also develop an echo chamber effect. I experienced that first hand because I thought very little of traditional stuff when I went to this gym. And my experience there completely changed my viewpoint.

Definitely! The popularity of MMA has seen off a lot of those Mc Dojos as you've said, mate. :smile: Alas, have a gander on youtube and there are still lots about, unfortunately. In fact, many of them 'don't know that they don't know...' as the saying goes. As far as their own system is concerned it's the best thing since the wheel and is 100% functional as it works in their friendly dojo environment.

If you examine that animal day footage you'll notice that they are not actually sparring. There is no 'reciprocal exchange' and the distance is closed in a blink and it remains closed. So you won't get that toing and froing. So, while you may be able to pull off the odd spinning kick in sparring or at a match the chances of doing it for real, on the street are low (but possible). Personally, I'd prefer a good old right hook.

Granted not everything is thrown out the window in a trad system but most of it is. Sure, you could 'fluke' a move or two in sparring where the consequences are minimal. Doing it for real while someone is trying to stove your skull in is a whole other thing.

Generally, people don't like sceptics... :smile: But they have got to remember what scepticism actually is. It's just fact-checking simple as. I agree with your point about it leading to an echo-chamber. But that's not really scepticism that's actually just being blinkered or willfully ignorant. From what I've seen, it's many of those traditional clubs that maintain a veneer of pseudo scepticism. Or these guys in camo pants - Krav Maga and the like... Basically traditional(ish) techniques wrapped up in a 'cool' package.

At the end of the day, if you're an instructor who's teaching self-defence then IMO, you should be constantly analysing what you are doing and teaching. And not just nodding the head to a guy in a gi. If you're just doing it for fun or whatever then it's not something you really need to worry about.
 
I am not saying it doesn't help. I just think it is unhealthy to assume it is a shield against getting harmed. I've just had too many experiences where I soundly beaten by someone, despite knowing what I am doing.

This is it... Murphey's law.
 
Definitely! The popularity of MMA has seen off a lot of those Mc Dojos as you've said, mate. :smile: Alas, have a gander on youtube and there are still lots about, unfortunately. In fact, many of them 'don't know that they don't know...' as the saying goes. As far as their own system is concerned it's the best thing since the wheel and is 100% functional as it works in their friendly dojo environment.

If you examine that animal day footage you'll notice that they are not actually sparring. There is no 'reciprocal exchange' and the distance is closed in a blink and it remains closed. So you won't get that toing and froing. So, while you may be able to pull off the odd spinning kick in sparring or at a match the chances of doing it for real, on the street are low (but possible). Personally, I'd prefer a good old right hook.

Granted not everything is thrown out the window in a trad system but most of it is. Sure, you could 'fluke' a move or two in sparring where the consequences are minimal. Doing it for real while someone is trying to stove your skull in is a whole other thing.

Generally, people don't like sceptics... :smile: But they have got to remember what scepticism actually is. It's just fact-checking simple as. I agree with your point about it leading to an echo-chamber. But that's not really scepticism that's actually just being blinkered or willfully ignorant. From what I've seen, it's many of those traditional clubs that maintain a veneer of pseudo scepticism. Or these guys in camo pants - Krav Maga and the like... Basically traditional(ish) techniques wrapped up in a 'cool' package.

At the end of the day, if you're an instructor who's teaching self-defence then IMO, you should be constantly analysing what you are doing and teaching. And not just nodding the head to a guy in a gi. If you're just doing it for fun or whatever then it's not something you really need to worry about.

All I am saying, and I am the furthest thing from a traditionalist, is based on what I saw in various schools and gyms in my area over the years, underestimate traditional martial artists at your own risk. I get what you are pointing to but I also think it is a bit of a straw man that mainly pertains to people who learned traditional styles at very crappy schools form the mid-80s to the 90s and even some of the early 2000s. But anytime I met guys from the 60s or 70s, those dudes could hit hard. Very, very hard hits. Even in TKD, the guys from the 70s were pretty hardened. It was the later, olympic style that softened the art (and I love olympic style because it is thrilling and fun, but I saw the power of those 70s guys first hand). And the old school guys even sparred with lower stances and permitted punches to the head, all at full contact without stopping when a point was scored. It still looked distinctly traditional. But much of it was quite effective. I remember getting hit so hard by one of these guys that I threw up. And I met a lot of guys from other countries trained in traditional styles that could fight for real. I think a lot of this is much more about the people than the styles themselves. I remember getting hit by the Kung Fu Sifu that, just by blocking his kick, my whole body went pale and I almost passed out (I got my heart checked the next day). He just kicked me with such power and his leg was so dense, that it took the fight out of me instantly.Yes traditional arts can get caught up in style over substance. But you can also miss the value of traditional arts if you totally dismiss them. And you can overlook their efficacy as well. I totally get what you are saying. I just think it isn't as black and white these days.
 
Sparring isn't a reciprocal exchange. That isn't how I was trained to spar

Well, if you train MT, boxing, MMA then you are definitely having a reciprocal exchange - unless you're getting one punch knockouts every fight like in the movie Snatch. :smile:
 
All I am saying, and I am the furthest thing from a traditionalist, is based on what I saw in various schools and gyms in my area over the years, underestimate traditional martial artists at your own risk. I get what you are pointing to but I also think it is a bit of a straw man that mainly pertains to people who learned traditional styles at very crappy schools form the mid-80s to the 90s and even some of the early 2000s. But anytime I met guys from the 60s or 70s, those dudes could hit hard. Very, very hard hits. Even in TKD, the guys from the 70s were pretty hardened. It was the later, olympic style that softened the art (and I love olympic style because it is thrilling and fun, but I saw the power of those 70s guys first hand). And the old school guys even sparred with lower stances and permitted punches to the head, all at full contact without stopping when a point was scored. It still looked distinctly traditional. But much of it was quite effective. I remember getting hit so hard by one of these guys that I threw up. And I met a lot of guys from other countries trained in traditional styles that could fight for real. I think a lot of this is much more about the people than the styles themselves. I remember getting hit by the Kung Fu Sifu that, just by blocking his kick, my whole body went pale and I almost passed out (I got my heart checked the next day). He just kicked me with such power and his leg was so dense, that it took the fight out of me instantly.Yes traditional arts can get caught up in style over substance. But you can also miss the value of traditional arts if you totally dismiss them. And you can overlook their efficacy as well. I totally get what you are saying. I just think it isn't as black and white these days.

I hear what you are saying as well... Sometimes people are just freakin' tough. That includes people with TMA backgrounds!

My main beef with the majority of TMA is that 'most' of it won't translate under duress and that it's not the most efficient way of training by any means (but if you love it that's a different story). Why learn all that reverse punch, blocking and Kata nonsense? There are much better ways of developing your skills.

Not that I'm a betting man... But if I was give me an MMA fighter over a black belt any day of the week!
 
Sparring isn't a reciprocal exchange. That isn't how I was trained to spar
Amazing! Neither have I, beleive it or not!

Well, if you train MT, boxing, MMA then you are definitely having a reciprocal exchange - unless you're getting one punch knockouts every fight like in the movie Snatch. :smile:
Are you referring to the "onslaught until it ends style" style of attack as "non-reciprocal", and "anything where both fighters can adopt a stance" as "reciprocal"?

Because the former is possible...but usually if you set up the other guy to let you into position (which ain't going to look well). And if he weathers the assault, you end up in what you deem "reciprocal" situation.

However, there are ways to get him in a "non-reciprocal" situation where the opponent can't really retaliate, even if you both started in a stance. I believe that's what BedrockBrendan BedrockBrendan is referring to (and so am I).
 
I hear what you are saying as well... Sometimes people are just freakin' tough. That includes people with TMA backgrounds!

My main beef with the majority of TMA is that 'most' of it won't translate under duress and that it's not the most efficient way of training by any means (but if you love it that's a different story). Why learn all that reverse punch, blocking and Kata nonsense? There are much better ways of developing your skills.

Not that I'm a betting man... But if I was give me an MMA fighter over a black belt any day of the week!
At this point, I really want* to see a video of your training...I guess you're not likely to have one of actually applying them (or if you do, you probably wouldn't be willing to share).
Just because I want to see what your rear hand is throwing (and preferably defence and footwork as well) if you're wondering about my reasons:grin:!

*Though I guess you wouldn't have one. I don't have one, myself!
 
I hear what you are saying as well... Sometimes people are just freakin' tough. That includes people with TMA backgrounds!

My main beef with the majority of TMA is that 'most' of it won't translate under duress and that it's not the most efficient way of training by any means (but if you love it that's a different story). Why learn all that reverse punch, blocking and Kata nonsense? There are much better ways of developing your skills.

Not that I'm a betting man... But if I was give me an MMA fighter over a black belt any day of the week!
The bolded bit shows up the level of received wisdom here. There's a hell of a lot of bunkai in kata. A lot of which has been forgotten in the process of turning karate into a sport. But there are people out there going back to primary sources and unpicking what thed purpose of kata were originally intended to be. Which is a form of shadow boxing. A way to train without a partner.

And of course, shadow boxing is completely useless, right?

As for a reverse punch, I guess you never used a cross, either.
 
The bolded bit shows up the level of received wisdom here. There's a hell of a lot of bunkai in kata. A lot of which has been forgotten in the process of turning karate into a sport. But there are people out there going back to primary sources and unpicking what thed purpose of kata were originally intended to be. Which is a form of shadow boxing. A way to train without a partner.

And of course, shadow boxing is completely useless, right?

As for a reverse punch, I guess you never used a cross, either.

Speaking of traditional echo chambers. :smile:

Again, I'm repeating myself here... As I said earlier. I'm fully 'aware' of the supposed existence of 'bunkai' in Kata. I still think it's backward and has little use for 'real' self-defence. But if you want to go up and down the dojo doing a rising block in PJs knock yourself out.

Shadow boxing is one of the core components for effective training. If you are comparing that to Kata then you really are living in a bubble. Next minute you'll be telling me that traditional acupuncture is effective. :hehe:

Hmm... Right cross and a traditional reverse punch that starts from the hip? Two different things. :smile:
 
However, there are ways to get him in a "non-reciprocal" situation where the opponent can't really retaliate, even if you both started in a stance. I believe that's what BedrockBrendan BedrockBrendan is referring to (and so am I).

East to show these concepts in person but hard to explain over the internet. :sad:

When you spar (or fight in the ring) it is generally a case of a reciprocal exchange. That is, both fighters are landing blows at different times.

A non-reciprocal exchange is when one fighter doesn't give the other a chance to land a blow. This happens a lot in street fights - but very rarely in the ring (possible but very rare!).
 
At this point, I really want* to see a video of your training...I guess you're not likely to have one of actually applying them (or if you do, you probably wouldn't be willing to share).
Just because I want to see what your rear hand is throwing (and preferably defence and footwork as well) if you're wondering about my reasons:grin:!

*Though I guess you wouldn't have one. I don't have one, myself!

There certainly was some on YT around 2008.

But it was mainly me being thrown around by my former instructor at seminars:grin:. Or me demonstrating specific skills (based around key principals). However, I doubt there is any now, since I no longer associate with that instructor (for reasons I won't go into here).

I should point out that there is nothing particularly special about me. Remember, I've been training in traditional Dojos since I was 13. I also have a black belt in Karate (an esoteric grading that I don't actually recognise). I found that my traditional training fell apart under pressure. That's when I turned to Boxing and began the search for other material - That has served me well over the years. And I've been in a position to pass on the knowledge to people who are interested.

But in all honesty, I'm just standing on the shoulders of giants.
 
Speaking of traditional echo chambers. :smile:

Again, I'm repeating myself here... As I said earlier. I'm fully 'aware' of the supposed existence of 'bunkai' in Kata. I still think it's backward and has little use for 'real' self-defence. But if you want to go up and down the dojo doing a rising block in PJs knock yourself out.

Shadow boxing is one of the core components for effective training. If you are comparing that to Kata then you really are living in a bubble. Next minute you'll be telling me that traditional acupuncture is effective. :hehe:

Hmm... Right cross and a traditional reverse punch that starts from the hip? Two different things. :smile:
Echo-o-o. Pot, meet kettle. This is the classic idea that basically there is only one reason to train in martial arts. And it's 'the way that works.' Whatever that means. It's also the idea that only certain methods work. And the idea that any martial arts will work in a self defense situation is frankly laughable. I've seen enough fights over taxis at 2am and outside kebab shops, as well as in clubs and pubs to know, the guy with the training is the one that gets jumped from behind more often than not. He takes the first hit, he goes down, he gets kerb stomped. And I've yet to see a practical defense against a knife used the way people who would actually attack with a knife would attack. A kid in my town got stabbed 13 times a few weeks ago. The entire attack lasted maybe four seconds and came without warning.

All that posturing you see MMA people doing about how traditional martial arts are crap is exactly the same kind of echo chamber you talk about.

I see this thing about blocks all the time. The I see the same people covering when they train. I guess the saying, beginner moves a lot, black belt moves a little never gets mentioned in the gyms that teach boxers to parry. It's the exact same concept. It's just that in karate, it first gets taught as an exaggerated movement, gradually refined over time. But then, someone with a background in Shotokan might think that all karate styles work in that deep stance, square shoulders way.

And if you don't know the three K concept of karate, and you've never really explored the applications of the combinations you learn in kata, I can see why you might be dismissive of it. It is, after all, a multi level study aid. Little use on it's own and not very practical when used as a judged tournament event.

But when you start to deconstruct them, you start to realise that kata is about things like learning how to move, how to shift weight, balance and centre of gravity. And that the Shotokan way of showing some techniques is actually quite far removed from the real purpose of those techniques. Kekette in particular just doesn't work the way they do it in tournament kata. But when you pull it apart and put it back together?

Just because you think something is backwards doesn't mean that it's actually backwards. It just means you don't like it as a method. But even Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do has forms. So they must serve some purpose.
 
Echo-o-o. Pot, meet kettle. This is the classic idea that basically there is only one reason to train in martial arts. And it's 'the way that works.' Whatever that means. It's also the idea that only certain methods work. And the idea that any martial arts will work in a self defense situation is frankly laughable. I've seen enough fights over taxis at 2am and outside kebab shops, as well as in clubs and pubs to know, the guy with the training is the one that gets jumped from behind more often than not. He takes the first hit, he goes down, he gets kerb stomped. And I've yet to see a practical defense against a knife used the way people who would actually attack with a knife would attack. A kid in my town got stabbed 13 times a few weeks ago. The entire attack lasted maybe four seconds and came without warning.

All that posturing you see MMA people doing about how traditional martial arts are crap is exactly the same kind of echo chamber you talk about.

I see this thing about blocks all the time. The I see the same people covering when they train. I guess the saying, beginner moves a lot, black belt moves a little never gets mentioned in the gyms that teach boxers to parry. It's the exact same concept. It's just that in karate, it first gets taught as an exaggerated movement, gradually refined over time. But then, someone with a background in Shotokan might think that all karate styles work in that deep stance, square shoulders way.

And if you don't know the three K concept of karate, and you've never really explored the applications of the combinations you learn in kata, I can see why you might be dismissive of it. It is, after all, a multi level study aid. Little use on it's own and not very practical when used as a judged tournament event.

But when you start to deconstruct them, you start to realise that kata is about things like learning how to move, how to shift weight, balance and centre of gravity. And that the Shotokan way of showing some techniques is actually quite far removed from the real purpose of those techniques. Kekette in particular just doesn't work the way they do it in tournament kata. But when you pull it apart and put it back together?

Just because you think something is backwards doesn't mean that it's actually backwards. It just means you don't like it as a method. But even Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do has forms. So they must serve some purpose.

Cool story bro'...:thumbsup:
 
That word sets me teeth on edge. It's up there with Whatever as a dismissive.

No point in saying the same thing over and over...

You put up a vid of some 'youtuber' who made some very dubious claims imo. And when I ask for proof or at least a demo there's absolutely nothing.

Then you got your knickers in a knot. Because I don't believe in the power of KATA!
 
East to show these concepts in person but hard to explain over the internet. :sad:

When you spar (or fight in the ring) it is generally a case of a reciprocal exchange. That is, both fighters are landing blows at different times.

A non-reciprocal exchange is when one fighter doesn't give the other a chance to land a blow. This happens a lot in street fights - but very rarely in the ring (possible but very rare!).

Maybe I am just failing to understand what you are trying to say but this isn't how sparring works in my experience. I've been in situations where I've just taken punches from people, and wasn't able to retaliate because they were so much better than me. You see this in MMA matches and boxing matches. It occurs in the gym during sparring too. I just don't think of it as a back and forth. You are not doing your sparring partner any favors if you keep backing off and letting them take shots at you out of courtesy. There are times in training when this is useful and you may see it (for example if someone is working on particular things, or if it is a very like session of sparring focused on mainly technique). But when people are actively resisting, they are actively resisting. If I do back off it is in order to pace myself and my strength so I don't get exhausted. And if I let them have a go at me, it is to set up a counter (or possibly feel them out). Honestly I think the major thing people probably would be surprised by if they have never been in a fight is just how exhausting it is. I don't think I've ever been more tired than after my very first competition because you burn through all your energy so quickly if you don't conserve it.
 
If I do back off it is in order to pace myself and my strength so I don't get exhausted. And if I let them have a go at me, it is to set up a counter (or possibly feel them out).

And therefore it's a reciprocal exchange. Just like most boxing, MMA or MT fights. Nothing wrong with it... Best boxers in the world do it.

However, If you punch the head off someone and they never get a chance to respond then it's a non-reciprocal exchange. Whether in the ring or street. More often then not, it happens in the street, however.

There are some good examples of non-reciprocal exchanges in these clips. Case in point a one-sided beating.

 
No point in saying the same thing over and over...

You put up a vid of some 'youtuber' who made some very dubious claims imo. And when I ask for proof or at least a demo there's absolutely nothing.

Then you got your knickers in a knot. Because I don't believe in the power of KATA!
From this side, I posted a video from someone with a lot of experience competing at international levels, who is a second generation martial artist that runs seminars around the world and is attempting to qualify for the Olympics to represent his country on the world stage. A guy who you dismissed instantly, despite him actually supporting aspects of what you talk about. Then you wanted examples, despite him talking about modes of thought and training for a given purpose, not actual drills or examples of those ways of approaching your training.

Almost as if you just didn't want to hear what some youtuber in pyjamas had to say because you know best. Especially when he was talking about the philosophical underpinnings of what we do. You know, the bit that elevates fighting above just being about beating the shit out of the other guy and puts the art in martial art.

But you don't want that, you just want brawling and blood by the way you post. You come over as a fighter, not a martial artist. And that's fine, there's room for both. Just as there's room for people who do martial arts and martial artists.

Then you got dismissive of a training method that dates back literally centuries and can be used in an almost unlimited number of ways. But hey, you know best. There was no point in countries all across Asia developing these forms. Even in HEMA, they have plays, drills and flourishes, which are basically kata by another name. Solo training drills and exercises. What's so bad about them?

Rather than me getting my knickers in a twist, I see you dismissing, even being scornful of things that disagree with your fairly narrow interpretation and you coming across as a One True Way type of person.

That said, I do get what you're saying about reciprocal vs non reciprocal exchanges. It seems to me like that makes a good X axis to the Y of consensual vs non consensual violence.
 
Then you got dismissive of a training method that dates back literally centuries and can be used in an almost unlimited number of ways. But hey, you know best. There was no point in countries all across Asia developing these forms. Even in HEMA, they have plays, drills and flourishes, which are basically kata by another name. Solo training drills and exercises. What's so bad about them?
Speaking as a HEMAist, there can be absolutely nothing wrong with them. Because we know best, duh:devil:!


Also, we're not going to see eye to eye with Rob Necronomicon Rob Necronomicon but that's fine. There's room in martial arts for everyone who's willing to put in the work, and everyone follows his or her own Way, though we might be following in the footsteps of others or seeking new paths:shade:.

And if that sounds too philosophical, too bad, because I'm in a mood that fits that kind of rhetoric:tongue:!
 
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And therefore it's a reciprocal exchange. Just like most boxing, MMA or MT fights. Nothing wrong with it... Best boxers in the world do it.

However, If you punch the head off someone and they never get a chance to respond then it's a non-reciprocal exchange. Whether in the ring or street. More often then not, it happens in the street, however.

There are some good examples of non-reciprocal exchanges in these clips. Case in point a one-sided beating.



Except where I said that doesn't always happen. Like when I sparred against people who were way better than me and they didn't give me a chance to retaliate at all. Reciprocal is just the wrong language for what is going on. If you are getting hit like a person's punching bag, that isn't a reciprocal exchange
 
From this side, I posted a video from someone with a lot of experience competing at international levels, who is a second generation martial artist that runs seminars around the world and is attempting to qualify for the Olympics to represent his country on the world stage. A guy who you dismissed instantly, despite him actually supporting aspects of what you talk about. Then you wanted examples, despite him talking about modes of thought and training for a given purpose, not actual drills or examples of those ways of approaching your training.

Almost as if you just didn't want to hear what some youtuber in pyjamas had to say because you know best. Especially when he was talking about the philosophical underpinnings of what we do. You know, the bit that elevates fighting above just being about beating the shit out of the other guy and puts the art in martial art.

But you don't want that, you just want brawling and blood by the way you post. You come over as a fighter, not a martial artist. And that's fine, there's room for both. Just as there's room for people who do martial arts and martial artists.

Then you got dismissive of a training method that dates back literally centuries and can be used in an almost unlimited number of ways. But hey, you know best. There was no point in countries all across Asia developing these forms. Even in HEMA, they have plays, drills and flourishes, which are basically kata by another name. Solo training drills and exercises. What's so bad about them?

Rather than me getting my knickers in a twist, I see you dismissing, even being scornful of things that disagree with your fairly narrow interpretation and you coming across as a One True Way type of person.

That said, I do get what you're saying about reciprocal vs non reciprocal exchanges. It seems to me like that makes a good X axis to the Y of consensual vs non consensual violence.

And? So...? the guy is good at competition karate at an international level? So where are the demonstrations of his KATA working as he claims under duress? All I ask is to see how he pressure tests his self-defence material in the dojo. I'll wager it's pretty light... If at all.

Again, He's making the claims... Talking about ancient training concepts that are applicable to real-world situations. But merely saying something does not make it a fact.

As for me knowing best? I could simply switch that over to you... And say YOU think that you know best and are willfully blinkered. But that would be childish. Again, my knowledge (as I've said) is based on the backs of giants and based on my own 35 years of martial arts training.

BTW I use the term 'art' for the benefit of understanding on a forum. But as far as I'm concerned real 'fighting' is not artistic. There is no art only facts. What works and what doesn't. Or at least what works 'most of the time' as nothing is infallible. I'm happy to be called a brawler - but it's not accurate due to technique.

however, I will agree that I'm generally very dismissive of knowledge that is centuries old. :smile: Thanks!

Incidentally, here is pajama boy teaching you how to use KATA in a real fight.

 
You were questioning the video, which asks, what are you training for and does the style you're training in support it?

As for 'putting a joint lock on,' that's not at all what I meant. I don't have to kick the side of your knee that hard to render you unable to stand. And elbows are a hell of a lot harder than fists. I didn't see either being employed, just a lot of wild swings and splatters of blood. With some shirt grabbing.

As for military training, I think we can all agree that Royal Marines are some people you don't want to mess with. Yet when showing off their skills at this demo, they manage not to actually spill any blood. Unlike the guys in that video you linked, who were just brawling.



Sorry I missed this!

Well, what do you mean about joint locks then?

The royal marines are tough hombres no doubt.

That demonstration was exceedingly choreographed, controlled and against highly compliant 'friendlies'. They were not trying to hurt each other, were they? You do realise that military personnel spend very little time learning HTH combat?

That type of demo is for the cameras and the public.

But let us now take a look at the English military's combat milling. Not pretty... But this type of training is where it's at. This will test anyone's martial arts and PJ boy's KATA. It's the nearest thing to a street fight in a controlled situation. If your stuff works under this type of pressure then you are golden. If it doesn't you might want to take another look -Especially, if you showing self-defence to students.



PS - I should point out. While full pressure testing is always a good litmus test whether something will work or not. It should be noted that in order to cultivate one’s skills you also need to train slowly and lightly at first while building up good technique. It’s more than just brawling.

Also, this type of hard training is not done day in day out (for obvious reasons). But it should be done from time to time (or something similar especially for self-defence instructors).
 
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As for me knowing best? I could simply switch that over to you... And say YOU think that you know best and are willfully blinkered. But that would be childish. Again, my knowledge (as I've said) is based on the backs of giants and based on my own 35 years of martial arts training.

You'd think that 35 years experience in martial arts would give you a bit more respect for other people. But then, you seem to be training for one specific thing and to think that anyone training for any other reason is basically wasting yours and their time.

As for Marines, I used to drink with an ex Royal Marine. My liver still hurts when I think about it, but one of the things he'd talk about from his time in the forces was how their hand to hand training is both hard and shallow. They basically focus on maybe a dozen moves, all designed to kill or incapacitate an enemy. Sure, they do other stuff, but much of the purpose of that is conditioning. The actual fighting stuff? Breaking, dislocating and hitting vulnerable points very hard with intent to kill. While leaving as little of yourself exposed to counter attack as possible.

But then, they're soldiers. And elite soldiers at that. They aren't going to play nice. And they have to be able to fight in full battle dress.

Anyway, here's a good story that isn't about an ex marine.
 
You'd think that 35 years experience in martial arts would give you a bit more respect for other people. But then, you seem to be training for one specific thing and to think that anyone training for any other reason is basically wasting yours and their time.

As for Marines, I used to drink with an ex Royal Marine. My liver still hurts when I think about it, but one of the things he'd talk about from his time in the forces was how their hand to hand training is both hard and shallow. They basically focus on maybe a dozen moves, all designed to kill or incapacitate an enemy. Sure, they do other stuff, but much of the purpose of that is conditioning. The actual fighting stuff? Breaking, dislocating and hitting vulnerable points very hard with intent to kill. While leaving as little of yourself exposed to counter attack as possible.

But then, they're soldiers. And elite soldiers at that. They aren't going to play nice. And they have to be able to fight in full battle dress.

Anyway, here's a good story that isn't about an ex marine.

I don't respect people who make wild claims and can't back it up. If people want to train for fun, sport or fitness, then that's absolutely cool and I fully respect those reasons (as I keep saying). I don't think people are wasting their time unless they are doing forms or kata (for self-defence).

Congratulations of having a drink with a Royal Marine. You must be a wealth of knowledge after that.

You do realize that my training is based in military combatives don't you (as well as civilian self-protection)? And not the crap you see in fancy demos. I travelled abroad to train with ex-soldiers who specialized in HTH training. Incidentally, I had several military personnel in my classes and I had three who would come to me for private lessons. I know what type of training they go through.

However, their curriculums constantly change... A lot of the stuff is not serviceable. The Royal Marines are tough because of their training and most of all their 'Mindset'. They spend little time on HTH combat techniques (they spend more time on Boxing and for good reason).

It's far more efficient to kill the enemy from a distance with a weapon. Hand to hand combat for those guys is only as a last resort.
 
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So... the Ol' Kata Debate. I have something to say about that.

I *used* to scoff at the whole "kata" thing. I *largely* still do. BUT...

This is relative to the person in question. Kata were used to preserve moves within the context of motions among other things. Like all good "moves" if this is understood and the application of that move is used correctly, it works. The problem is that the context of this gets lost and becomes "literal" in its application. That's why you see people taught this way looking ghastly awkward even in point-fighting.

But I've seen an experienced people first hand that did understand this - and yes these folks are rare. But you see it in MMA, even as high-level as UFC (I'm pointing directly at Lyoto Machida and Stephen Thompson among others) that are classically trained martial-artists that still do katas and the whole nine-yards.

The long and short of it is - when people say "you use what works", a move is only as useful as it actually works. People easily forget martial-arts like any artform evolves on exposure. Katas are not necessary in the formal sense without explanation of their practical use. That's the key - you're not using the actual kata, rather the move it contains to be used contextually.

No "style" stays in vogue forever. It shifts and morphs upon exposure. When I say "Use what works" I'm not pretending the guy across from me is a highly-trained martial artist for rhetorical purposes. Because that renders the discussion moot. There is no *perfect* style. There are schools of thought that are proven repeatedly, and those that aren't, but it doesn't mean there isn't something useful to be learned or implemented from the less-optimal approach.

You train for optimal situational coverage. Anything beyond that is for your own personal benefit. I've sparred freestyle with karatekas, judokas, boxers, a dude that called himself a wing-chun "guy" (but that was really just his base - he knew a lot of other stuff). But one I got passed all the florid shit, I took them down enough times they had to adapt<--- there is the key.

Conversely - I'm smart enough to know that in the instances where their kicks and odd-angled punches connected in our sparring matches, I made no pretensions as to whether or not it would have hurt me, had we been going live. Truthfully, I feel I learned less from the traditional martial-artists than I did from the Boxers, but that's not to say I learned nothing. Katas or no katas. I also think they are the exception to the rule because they were actively engaged in putting their styles to the test against others that are using more "practical styles".

Training means actively trying to learn something, even if it's something you don't think is worthwhile for you - for whatever reason. This is precisely why when I evaluate these kinds of debates I'm speaking to the practicality of use. Most times you're not going to go up against another actual martial-artist. You're going to go up against a street-fighter.

Assuming it's 1v1 - what is a practical scenario for engagement once descalation is done? And assuming weapons aren't involved - Striking/kicking, and grappling are those options. I don't want to risk taking damage from a particularly good striking streetfighter, when I can mitigate the whole goddamn thing by doing a takedown. I have no interest in boxing with someone and trading brain-damage, missing teeth for the entirety of a fight. Or trying to pull off a flying Axe-kick or wheel-kick and get caught. That's just me. I've never fought to impress anyone.

I think there is a very real problem with how McMartial Arts have utterly watered down katas within various styles. But I'd be wary to dismiss them. There are monsters in those waters. They're rare. But they do exist.

As a side - though I have no personal experience in it other than doing some light sparring with a guy that was deep into it - I have a fascination with Kempo karate and think it could be useful. Anyone mess around with it?
 
Reading this thread makes me think: Damn... I need to get back into shape.
There was a saying that got me back into martial arts after a double decade lapse. "The best time to start was 20 years ago. The next best time is now."

Those few words have taken me on a very unexpected journey and if (when) I take the next step, I'll be sure to share it in the pub.
 
You do realize that my training is based in military combatives don't you (as well as civilian self-protection)? And not the crap you see in fancy demos. I travelled abroad to train with ex-soldiers who specialized in HTH training. Incidentally, I had several military personnel in my classes and I had three who would come to me for private lessons. I know what type of training they go through.

Anyone who says "My way is the best way" is on very shaky ground. Different martial arts are good in different situations. Combat troops are trained differently and have different styles.

People who ask which is best Royal Marines, US Marines, Israeli or Spetznatz are missing the point. They are all far better than I could ever be.

Reading this thread makes me think: Damn... I need to get back into shape.

Reading this thread makes me think there's far too much testosterone flying around.
 
Anyone who says "My way is the best way" is on very shaky ground. Different martial arts are good in different situations. Combat troops are trained differently and have different styles.

People who ask which is best Royal Marines, US Marines, Israeli or Spetznatz are missing the point. They are all far better than I could ever be.

Reading this thread makes me think there's far too much testosterone flying around.

It's not a case of 'my way'... It's a simple case of logic and pressure testing. As I've said this before... True combatives is not a style per se it's basically 'anything' that works in a fight or has the highest probability - because nothing is perfect and there are no guarantees in any real confrontation.

Point being if a technique is observed in 'whatever style' it's taken, incorporated and pressure tested and kept if it works. So, if a Kata (or part of) was deemed useful it would be taken and used. But from my observation and other instructors (who have had WAAAAY more experience than I'll ever have). Pretty much agree that 'most' of traditional Martial Arts such as Karate, Kung Fu, Kempo, Silat and the like are not serviceable to an 'acceptable level' under duress.

Full striking arts like Muay Thai (or Boxing), of course, are the exception. I'd highly recommend this type of training with any type of RBSD skills.

It's irrelevant how good the special forces are as they have a very specialized area of expertise. They are tough because they are freaking tough whether they have unarmed combat training or not. Most have very little incidentally. The ones that do tend to be guys who
have an interest in it and keep it up even after their basic HTH training.

But it should be noted that many of the original (and contemporary) Military HTH experts and instructors were all very competent traditional Martial Artists. Needless to say, that most of their TMA training went up in smoke during battle and covert missions. Hence the need to totally change what they were teaching to their soldiers as well as their mindset.

When it comes to military Hand to Hand combat it varies widely and some of it is absolutely terrible... And even within certain CQC styles, some instructors have more experience than others. The military also follow trends as well... Like the Marines in the 90s with BJJ. Try rolling around the battlefield in full battle dress with a flak jacket and rifle dangling at your side.

Feel free to call it testosterone... But I'm only interested in knowledge and discarding the detritus. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. :smile:
 
People who ask which is best Royal Marines, US Marines, Israeli or Spetznatz are missing the point. They are all far better than I could ever be.

Reading this thread makes me think there's far too much testosterone flying around.

My entire family are U.S. Marines (except me). Three generations worth. I think that "too much testosterone flying around" may not be off the mark. People into anything "competitive" or martial in nature, whether it's hand-to-hand, weapons training, survival, firearms, even sports. etc. do so because there's literally something inside them to contest themselves.

I'd also make a *strong* distinction between Marines (Royal or US) and *any* Special Forces unit from Israel, UK, Russia or the US. Those are an entirely different breed of person than your rank and file (though I'll put US Marines above any of the other US armed rank-and-file in terms of discipline and general badassery.) I'd also throw the RoK Marines from Korea in there too. Those are some badass mofos.

in terms of being High-T, I don't think it's a bad thing. All things in the proper places. Double-irony - I literally just got back from the doctor to have my bloodwork done and to test my testosterone. In all likelyhood, I'm predicting he's going to say the same thing about my panel - 'Too much testosterone.'
 
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