Far West 12th Anniversary

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Cynthia had issues getting the PoD copy ready. Before she could, she needed surgery on her hands (she showed me a picture of her hands prior to the surgery. Needless to say, not every backer has gotten copies. She sends out copies every month to a group of people she lists in an update. Some who were sent copies claim they never got theirs. I was in the first mailing, and I got mine, so I haven't kept a close eye on it. However, the delays also delayed the Gallery of Evil KS (a supplement for Capes, Cowls & Villains Foul). The print copy of that isn't out (the pdf is), and there's been radio silence on that one. I got a refund down to the digital level on that one.

A lot of backers are irate that Spectrum (the company) has released 3 rpgs since (none were via KS though), and some outright accused Cynthia of using the money from the KS to finance those. Given the first of those came out 3 years after the KS funded, I highly doubt there was any money left. I've known Cynthia for years, and I don't believe she'd do something like that. I get the anger and frustration though; my own frustration is why I downgraded to the digital level on Gallery of Evil. Some people made insinuations that the situation is as bad as Far West, but given both products have a full pdf out, and one is in print (and Far West was 2 or 3 years before Cartoon Action Hour S3), it isn't. It's still a total clusterf*ck.

Yeah, this one sucks for me. I consider Cynthia a friend. I've touted her games HIGHLY in my blog over the years, and she's regularly pulled those quotes for promotion.

And I'm one of the folks waiting for my physical copy.

Still.

A highlight of the BESM thread for me was coming across GMS chewing out McKinnon about his lack of communication and honesty. In retrospect it's just fascinating

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That irony IS pretty impressive, since it's almost two years into Far West.
 
Of one thing I am certain: If he lied about someone allowing him to use their system, that's absolutely fraud.

And if he uses them "holding it up" as an excuse after they've clearly said "no" in the first place, that's probably libel.


Again, a perfect situation for delay once Alan says, "No."

"Guys, I put a TON of work into rewriting the chapters for the Tiny D6 system, but negotiations with Alan have been difficult. I don't expect this to delay things much past October of 2022 though. Worst case scenario, I have plans for a system I'm calling..... Tiny D8."
 
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As amusing as that would be, I doubt he would switch to Tiny D6. I mean, he hasn't been converting to regular Open D6 long enough yet. Give him 3 - 4 years before speculating on what system he will decide works better next :tongue:
 
Man. Every time I think about stupid nonsense like this, I just think about the Order of the Stick Kickstarter.

Rich Burlew obviously bit off more than he could chew, but by goddamn he's still producing. It might take him a decade to actually finish all that stretch goal content, but he's still doing it.

Rich Burlew nearly cut off his thumb shortly after the campaign ended and had to have the tendons surgically repaired. It's fairly clear that he's never fully recovered the rate of productivity he enjoyed before the accident.

But, yes, he just keeps churning forward on the project with constant updates featuring a visually clear tracker. And I have never one felt ill-used for the money I paid him.
 
KS is essentially just a platform and format. Investors are responsible for the risks they take. There have been scams, and it's unfortunate, but that happens in the business world too. I don't think it's KS that needs to address this, it's the legal system, which is woefully out of date and out of touch with the post-internet society. There needs to be real consequences, and fair standards for determining when those consequences apply. Simply being late certainly isn't enough. But I think trying to hold KS itself responsible is like trying to hold an landlord responsible for things their tenants do in their apartments. The only actual change I'd like to see from KS itself is to not allow a person/company to run multiple KS at once, or start new ones when previous ones are incomplete.
 
With the caveat I'm saying that as someone who over the years I've used Kickstarter I have 100% success rate. But then, I do research first, I look at what is being proposed and weigh the risk or how realistic the proposals are, and I expect and anticipate delays and setbacks, especially in any situation where multiple parties or production is involved. Just basic due diligence of the sort I think any investor should consider. I think one of KS's biggest problems is not the creators (and yeah, many of them are idiots and dreamers, scammers are actually relatively rare), but the people who treat it like a store.
 
On the subject of Wayward Kickstarters, any recent news on Marmoreal Tomb? I think it's going on 4 years now. I'm not personally in contact with Benoist anymore.
 
I don't think it's KS that needs to address this, it's the legal system, which is woefully out of date and out of touch with the post-internet society. There needs to be real consequences, and fair standards for determining when those consequences apply.

There have been cases like this all ready. The FTC took action against one failed boardgame KS (and that person is barred from ever making another one), and different State Attorney Generals have taken up suits against failed KS where backers lived in their states. Washington successfully did so for a failed card game. The AG of Washington DC filed one for a KS that didn't deliver on athletic apparel

I know a few people in the Far West KS did contact their AG, and I know GMS was contacted by at least one AG. IIRC, if he gives up on this, he will be sued by that AG. So he keeps going. As long as he shows he's making an effort (unlike the people in the ks campaigns that got sued), he is safe for the time being. If another AG steps in and does something though, he could be in trouble. However, that is up to backers to address to their AG first. From comments I've seen elsewhere, most people have pretty much given up on the whole thing all ready, so he's been able to slip through the cracks.

At least he hasn't attempted another KS that I know of since, which is something others have done. That's about the only props I'll give him.
 
I've said it before: KS needs to step in and cancel shit like this
What does that even mean for Kickstarter to cancel it? Call up Skarka and tell him he isn't allowed to make the game? Skarka seems to be doing just fine at cancelling it all on his own.
 
::ring ring:: “Hi GKS. This is Kickstarter. We’ve come to the conclusion after seven years that you are a failure. Goodbye.” ::click::
 
I think one of KS's biggest problems is not the creators (and yeah, many of them are idiots and dreamers, scammers are actually relatively rare), but the people who treat it like a store.
This is a harsh, uncomfortable truth but it has to be said. At the end of the day Kickstarter is for ventures that are unlikely to be funded through traditional means. This allows creatives to take risks and engage in projects that might otherwise never see fruition; the risk is a feature, not a flaw. If Kickstarter was somehow forced to guarantee every project we'd only see the most banal projects being funded, obviously defeating the purpose.
 
::ring ring:: “Hi GKS. This is Kickstarter. We’ve come to the conclusion after seven years that you are a failure. Goodbye.” ::click::

Again, they'll never do that. They just provide the platform, and take a cut. Once they get their cut, they could care less if it fails. They have no way of getting the money back from GMS, nor will they ever give back the cut they took for hosting the campaign. They don't give a rat's ass about it, and haven't for years. It's the way they run their business, because if they got involved directly, it makes them liable. They will never do that unless forced to legally (and no one has tried as of yet). They have no accountability in these situations, therefore have no incentive to do anything
 
Rich Burlew nearly cut off his thumb shortly after the campaign ended and had to have the tendons surgically repaired. It's fairly clear that he's never fully recovered the rate of productivity he enjoyed before the accident.

But, yes, he just keeps churning forward on the project with constant updates featuring a visually clear tracker. And I have never one felt ill-used for the money I paid him.
If there’s one person who doesn’t deserve any shit for his KS troubles, it’s Burlew.
 
KS is essentially just a platform and format. Investors are responsible for the risks they take.
I gotta correct you on this: You are NOT an investor when you back something on Kickstarter. Investors have more rights and control over a project than most KS backers have.
 
There is a case to be made that KS is doing a lot of people a favor by leaving failed KS's up there to serve as a warning from future projects by these people. At least until they "make it right" - which for GMS seems unlikely.
 
I have 3 outstanding ones left to be finished. One involves a person on this board, and I’ve seen regular updates and contents, and, while delayed, I am not unpleased with. I can even proceed on what I have and not even be particularly wounded. One is for someone who has done several successful ones and I’ve backed them, and, while late, have always delivered fine products.

The third is for a software product that is several years late, and made me stop backing any software products again. I see regular updates, but beta was supposed to be 2 years ago :smile: it’s moving, I know, but good lord, we’ve gone through several iterations of hardware since then.
 
But I think trying to hold KS itself responsible is like trying to hold an landlord responsible for things their tenants do in their apartments.
That's like thinking if I lend you my car and you run over people it doesn't affect me. Landlords can and will be held liable for things tenants do in their apartments. Just the tip of the iceberg:

I get what you're saying but the analogy doesn't work because the landlord and tenant have a two-party contract between themselves, whereas in Kickstarter the contract is between the backer and the creator and Kickstarter is a disinterested third party. They're more like the classifieds section of a newspaper that you used to find your used car. It's not their problem if that car turns out to be a lemon.
With the caveat I'm saying that as someone who over the years I've used Kickstarter I have 100% success rate. But then, I do research first, I look at what is being proposed and weigh the risk or how realistic the proposals are, and I expect and anticipate delays and setbacks, especially in any situation where multiple parties or production is involved. Just basic due diligence of the sort I think any investor should consider.
All they really need to so is actually read the Terms of Service and decide if it's worth the risk.

From the Terms of Service: "When a project is successfully funded,the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward." However there is no guarantee of delivery and little recourse for backers: "The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."

As for people thinking Kickstarter can step in, they can't (salient point bolded): "When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract. Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers."

Not only that, but even if Kickstarter could do anything about the contract you entered into with a third party, they'd be stupid to do so as it then opens them up to liability on any and every late or failed project.
 
Just tell Skarka to put the game out on Twitter and he'll have it done licketty split
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With the caveat I'm saying that as someone who over the years I've used Kickstarter I have 100% success rate. But then, I do research first, I look at what is being proposed and weigh the risk or how realistic the proposals are, and I expect and anticipate delays and setbacks, especially in any situation where multiple parties or production is involved. Just basic due diligence of the sort I think any investor should consider. I think one of KS's biggest problems is not the creators (and yeah, many of them are idiots and dreamers, scammers are actually relatively rare), but the people who treat it like a store.
As we've discussed before, Kickstarter want to have it both ways; they want to be the modern day artistic patronage site, which is fine and a totally noble endeavour, but they also want to be a store because that's clearly where the money is, but they also don't want the obligation of having to make sure their customers actually get what they pay for (Or even work out who their customers are! Is it the backers or the project creators? Is it both? It's probably both...) and they are quite happy to blur the lines between all those mutually-incompatible goals.

You can be Patreon or you can be eBay, but you can't really be both, as we have seen.
 
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As we've discussed before, Kickstarter want to have it both ways; they want to be the modern day artistic patronage site, which is fine and a totally noble endeavour, but they also want to be a store because that's clearly where the money is, but they also don't want the obligation of having to make sure their customers actually get what they pay for (Or even work out who their customers are! Is it the backers or the project creators? Is it both? It's probably both...) and they are quite happy to blur the lines between all those mutually-incompatible goals.

You can be Patreon or you can be eBay, but you can't really be both, as we have seen.
You seem to misunderstand what Kickstarter is and what it does. Kickstarter is not trying to be anything other than what it is, which is a place creators go to solicit funding and backers go to find projects they want to fund. Kickstarter takes a cut for putting the creator and backer together, and that's it. It's a broker. Its only goal is to get a % of the funds that backers put into creators' projects.
 
I gotta correct you on this: You are NOT an investor when you back something on Kickstarter. Investors have more rights and control over a project than most KS backers have.

I'm going to correct you back. The literal definition of investing:
"the action or process of investing money for profit or material result."

I get that there is a specific role that a certain type of investor (shareholders) play in the business world, but the term is way more general than that. It's what distinguishes a backer from a customer.
 
From my point of view Kickstarter has entered an area that used to be clearly defined and is now muddying it up. It used to be you had to be an accredited investor to make speculative investments in things like this and yes you were an actual potential owner but probably so minor that it didn't really matter. It's not that different from what Kickstarter is, other than you have more rights when something fails. Now you have people who can't necessarily afford to lose money investing in (a pre-order system for some creators and an ambitious gamble for others) and potentially losing any money in it.

The regulations came about to regulate the stock market specifically because of what we're seeing on Kickstarter. Some creators were legit. Some were idiots. Some were fraudulent. The end result was eventually no one cared what intent was. What mattered was grandma lost her home and people realized the reward to society for this wasn't worth the cost of dealing with complaints and financial harms. Stock brokers/traders could have and probably did try to say "Hey we're just hooking up buyers and sellers it's not our fault some people don't do their research.". At some point if failure keeps happening in large enough dollars history will repeat itself.


Kickstarter may be like classified ads but in that regard they're just as libel for encouraging criminal activity as Craigslist was for becoming essentially an escort front for a while. As long as failure rates remain low then Kickstarter is safe.


If I were writing regulations I'd have a % loss metrics. Maybe 10% of all dollars can go to failed projects. Above that and KS has to refund their portion of the loss. 15% and KS has to refund processing fees. 20% and they need to do partial refunds up to 50% of losses. That lets them weight their investigations on projects with large payments etc. They can even extend a campaign deadline for settling payments if dollar value goes over a set point to do due diligence. It would put them on notice they can't leave it the wild wild west but put the liability in what seems like reasonable bounds.
 
There have been cases like this all ready. The FTC took action against one failed boardgame KS (and that person is barred from ever making another one), and different State Attorney Generals have taken up suits against failed KS where backers lived in their states. Washington successfully did so for a failed card game. The AG of Washington DC filed one for a KS that didn't deliver on athletic apparel

It's a start certainly, though I think these need to be handled a little differently than relying on the consumer protection act and the limitations that has, like backers needed to be in the same location.

I know a few people in the Far West KS did contact their AG, and I know GMS was contacted by at least one AG. IIRC, if he gives up on this, he will be sued by that AG. So he keeps going. As long as he shows he's making an effort (unlike the people in the ks campaigns that got sued), he is safe for the time being. If another AG steps in and does something though, he could be in trouble. However, that is up to backers to address to their AG first. From comments I've seen elsewhere, most people have pretty much given up on the whole thing all ready, so he's been able to slip through the cracks.

His response to that AG investigation was hilarious too:

I've been contacted by the Kansas AG's Consumer Protection office, and I've been responding to them. This, naturally, takes time that I would prefer to be using to finish this and deliver, but it is what it is.
Regardless -- delivery will be occurring soon.
—GMS, Kickstarter comment, Tuesday 24 January 2017

Far West would have been done, if not for a phonecall, so obviously it's the backer's fault for complaining that they aren't getting it sooner.

At least he hasn't attempted another KS that I know of since, which is something others have done. That's about the only props I'll give him.

well he did take pre-orders for BB, but yeah. I don't think GMS set out intending to scam anyone, he's not a Ken Whitman type, I just think he got in over his head, dealt with it badly, and has been alternately lazy and dishonest about it since.
 
From my point of view Kickstarter has entered an area that used to be clearly defined and is now muddying it up. It used to be you had to be an accredited investor to make speculative investments in things like this and yes you were an actual potential owner but probably so minor that it didn't really matter. It's not that different from what Kickstarter is, other than you have more rights when something fails. Now you have people who can't necessarily afford to lose money investing in (a pre-order system for some creators and an ambitious gamble for others) and potentially losing any money in it.

The regulations came about to regulate the stock market specifically because of what we're seeing on Kickstarter. Some creators were legit. Some were idiots. Some were fraudulent. The end result was eventually no one cared what intent was. What mattered was grandma lost her home and people realized the reward to society for this wasn't worth the cost of dealing with complaints and financial harms. Stock brokers/traders could have and probably did try to say "Hey we're just hooking up buyers and sellers it's not our fault some people don't do their research.". At some point if failure keeps happening in large enough dollars history will repeat itself.


Kickstarter may be like classified ads but in that regard they're just as libel for encouraging criminal activity as Craigslist was for becoming essentially an escort front for a while. As long as failure rates remain low then Kickstarter is safe.


If I were writing regulations I'd have a % loss metrics. Maybe 10% of all dollars can go to failed projects. Above that and KS has to refund their portion of the loss. 15% and KS has to refund processing fees. 20% and they need to do partial refunds up to 50% of losses. That lets them weight their investigations on projects with large payments etc. They can even extend a campaign deadline for settling payments if dollar value goes over a set point to do due diligence. It would put them on notice they can't leave it the wild wild west but put the liability in what seems like reasonable bounds.


I'm personally against the idea of KS being held financially responsible - that would essentially kill it as a premise, and KS itself I think has been a net positive. We really aren't dealing with the level of situation/risk that compares to Wall Street, as you say, and no one is losing their house over backing a KS (or if they are, I'm pretty sure that's on their heads). It's fun to gossip about the failures and scams, but I really don't think there's a "problem" at the moment (unlike indigogo, where you're generally better off using your money to line a bird cage), at least not one from KS's end.
 
They're more like the classifieds section of a newspaper that you used to find your used car. It's not their problem if that car turns out to be a lemon.

Yeah, that's a better analogy
 
I'm personally against the idea of KS being held financially responsible - that would essentially kill it as a premise, and KS itself I think has been a net positive. We really aren't dealing with the level of situation/risk that compares to Wall Street, as you say, and no one is losing their house over backing a KS (or if they are, I'm pretty sure that's on their heads). It's fun to gossip about the failures and scams, but I really don't think there's a "problem" at the moment (unlike indigogo, where you're generally better off using your money to line a bird cage), at least not one from KS's end.
All I can say is unregulated financial markets always get abused. If it hasn't happened on a large scale it's only a matter of time. We've seen multi million dollar funding already. Someone is going to get to where they fucked their lives and have enough trust remaining that walking off with that will happen.
 
All I can say is unregulated financial markets always get abused. If it hasn't happened on a large scale it's only a matter of time. We've seen multi million dollar funding already. Someone is going to get to where they fucked their lives and have enough trust remaining that walking off with that will happen.

Well, multi-million from hundreds of backers, no cases of anyone personally putting in a million dollars of their own money. And even the most successful KS are chump change in regards to what happens on Wall Street daily. Burt again, if someone is putting their house at risk for a board game or student film, I still think that's entirely on their head.

We have had the opposite though - KS creators who have lost their houses. Even a very successful KS can destroy a person's livelihood if they don't run it correctly. But in neither case do I see KS having any blame for that
 
I'm personally against the idea of KS being held financially responsible - that would essentially kill it as a premise, and KS itself I think has been a net positive. We really aren't dealing with the level of situation/risk that compares to Wall Street, as you say, and no one is losing their house over backing a KS (or if they are, I'm pretty sure that's on their heads). It's fun to gossip about the failures and scams, but I really don't think there's a "problem" at the moment (unlike indigogo, where you're generally better off using your money to line a bird cage), at least not one from KS's end.

Anecdotally speaking, I've never had an unfulfilled project that I backed on Indigogo. Can't say the same for Kickstarter.
 
Anecdotally speaking, I've never had an unfulfilled project that I backed on Indigogo. Can't say the same for Kickstarter.

I've never backed an indigogo, the whole " they get the money whether it succeeds or fails" thing really put me off But I tend to play it pretty safe
 
Seriously amazed that you guys are talking about Kickstarter con artists and nobody has mentioned Ken Whitman yet.
 
A highlight of the BESM thread for me was coming across GMS chewing out McKinnon about his lack of communication and honesty. In retrospect it's just fascinating

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I really do not get this thing where RPG content creators beef with each other like they were rappers or some shit. Quite a few of them seem to engage in this behavior. I'm not knocking anyone, really, I guess I only became aware of it recently because I tend not to follow RPG forums drama. Believe it or not, when I started slapfighting with Zak S. here earlier this year, I had no idea who he was. I had seen his name on some supplements, but I had never interacted with him, or seen any of his activity in any forums, or online at all (I usually go to forums looking for a specific topic, it's rare for me to hang out).
 
I really do not get this thing where RPG content creators beef with each other like they were rappers or some shit. Quite a few of them seem to engage in this behavior. .
When people get shitty like that in public I find it often has something to do with saving face. When a person's self-worth is threatened they engage in or allow all kinds of dreadful behavior. It took me many years to realize this because the phenomenon is pervasive across all cultures and socioeconomic classes.

Edit: Yes, I realize I look like a total fucking sperglord giving a serious answer to a rhetorical question. :tongue:
 
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Seriously amazed that you guys are talking about Kickstarter con artists and nobody has mentioned Ken Whitman yet.


9 posts above you. But Ken definitely deserves his own thread, he's in a league of his own
 
Anecdotally speaking, I've never had an unfulfilled project that I backed on Indigogo. Can't say the same for Kickstarter.

On the other hand, I've had 5 movie projects on Indiegogo not be fulfilled. The ones I did on KS (The Void and Everybody has a Price) did. One of those is because the film maker got a distribution deal, and being a novice, screwed up and we can't get our copies of the movie yet. But it's playing all kinds of film festivals. I got beef from other backers when I pointed out that was unfair, to which I told them politely that as a backer, I have a right to my opinion (with a vaguely allusion to go f*ck off). We did get free copies of their first movie though, so that balances it a little bit.

One is a zombie movie by Romero's kid. He posts updates maybe 1 or 2 times a year. I doubt it will get done. Another is one where there has been total silence, so I gave up on that one. There's one starring Danny Trejo, and I got a couple of private emails from the people behind it, but I'm not getting my hopes up. The last one has had regular updates, and they've been honest that it would be late early on. The last update said it is close to being finished, but given the regular communication, I'm not worried. As I only go in for digital copies of films, I'm maybe out around 100 or so bucks on all of these.

Granted, these are all movies, not rpgs, but the fact that Kickstarter movies ended up fulfilling and none of the indiegogo ones have (and 2 of the indiegogo ones I backed before the KS ones), their track record with me is sadly less than KS is.
 
...is anyone else having more fun crapping on GMS than they would have had playing his game? I'm not the only one, right?
 
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