No Art - Text Only Products?

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Winterblight

Winterblight

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Hey all, are there any products out there that don't have artwork, just text and basic layout? Is there any interest in products that don't have artwork?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm almost finished an adventure I've been working on for the Zweihander Community Library. Writing and getting the GF to do some basic editing and proofing took about 2 months. Then I wanted a map, so I got Campaign Cartographer and had to learn that, that took a few months. Then I wanted a battle map and had to learn more Campaign Cartographer, another few months. Then I downloaded the adventure template, and even though I use MS Word every day, I had to spend quite a bit of time learning stuff I didn't know. Finally, I wanted my own logo for the cover, so I had to learn some GIMP. Its a very steep learning curve and I just about got what I wanted. All in all its taken a year and I'm exhausted!

So yeah, do we really need art for certain products?
 
Winterblight said:
Hey all, are there any products out there that don't have artwork, just text and basic layout?
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Original Traveller only has one line drawing in it. It did pretty well for itself anyway.
Winterblight said:
Is there any interest in products that don't have artwork?
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Yes.
Winterblight said:
So yeah, do we really need art for certain products?
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No.

For me personally, bad art (which is most RPG art) or inappropriate (to me) art is a much bigger turnoff than no art. In the case of a game like the aforementioned Traveller, having practically no art is a boon because players and referees won't draw conclusions about what their Traveller universe should look like and can let their own imaginations fill in the blanks.
 
Dumarest said:
For me personally, bad art (which is most RPG art) or inappropriate (to me) art is a much bigger turnoff than no art. In the case of a game like the aforementioned Traveller, having practically no art is a boon because players and referees won't draw conclusions about what their Traveller universe should look like and can let their own imaginations fill in the blanks.
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That's an angle I never really considered. Thanks. I guess I'm just that used to artwork being on every product and until I tried to do it myself I hadn't even given thought as to why it was there in the first place and that it could be an advantage not being there at all.
 
Winterblight said:
Hey all, are there any products out there that don't have artwork, just text and basic layout? Is there any interest in products that don't have artwork?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm almost finished an adventure I've been working on for the Zweihander Community Library. Writing and getting the GF to do some basic editing and proofing took about 2 months. Then I wanted a map, so I got Campaign Cartographer and had to learn that, that took a few months. Then I wanted a battle map and had to learn more Campaign Cartographer, another few months. Then I downloaded the adventure template, and even though I use MS Word every day, I had to spend quite a bit of time learning stuff I didn't know. Finally, I wanted my own logo for the cover, so I had to learn some GIMP. Its a very steep learning curve and I just about got what I wanted. All in all its taken a year and I'm exhausted!

So yeah, do we really need art for certain products?
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Need? No. However almost no one chooses to eat soybeans and rice each day. They want some variety.
 
Black seven has no art that I am aware of.

A lot of folks buy art off of drivethrurpg
 
Winterblight said:
Hey all, are there any products out there that don't have artwork, just text and basic layout? Is there any interest in products that don't have artwork?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm almost finished an adventure I've been working on for the Zweihander Community Library. Writing and getting the GF to do some basic editing and proofing took about 2 months. Then I wanted a map, so I got Campaign Cartographer and had to learn that, that took a few months. Then I wanted a battle map and had to learn more Campaign Cartographer, another few months. Then I downloaded the adventure template, and even though I use MS Word every day, I had to spend quite a bit of time learning stuff I didn't know. Finally, I wanted my own logo for the cover, so I had to learn some GIMP. Its a very steep learning curve and I just about got what I wanted. All in all its taken a year and I'm exhausted!

So yeah, do we really need art for certain products?
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Kevin Crawford established that you can give away no-art verdions for free then charge for the art version, especially in hardcopy.
 
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Me personally--I love art. I don't know how much of a RPG product I would read without art to be honest. Reading a novel is different, where I don't really need art for it, but for a gaming product, I greatly appreciate the art.
One thing to think about--if you get art, you may need to learn a layout program next to make it simpler (and I find it enjoyable) to stick your art in the right places.Yes, commission art is way better, but stock art for your first project might work just fine (and from sales, you may see if its worth it next time to do commissioned art), but as stated above, need to find stuff that won't hurt the overall vibe/image you have going for your product.

It sounds like you have spent so much time on this product, and believe me--I went through your exact same steps of trial and error and learning to how to use different programs, etc--you got to ask yourself two questions: 1. Did you have fun doing it? 2. Do you plan to do another product?

IF yes to both, then I suggest you try getting a few pieces of art and learning a layout program (Affinity Publishing is only 50$ and amazing) and putting it all together.
 
Malrex said:
Me personally--I love art. I don't know how much of a RPG product I would read without art to be honest. Reading a novel is different, where I don't really need art for it, but for a gaming product, I greatly appreciate the art.
One thing to think about--if you get art, you may need to learn a layout program next to make it simpler (and I find it enjoyable) to stick your art in the right places.Yes, commission art is way better, but stock art for your first project might work just fine (and from sales, you may see if its worth it next time to do commissioned art), but as stated above, need to find stuff that won't hurt the overall vibe/image you have going for your product.

It sounds like you have spent so much time on this product, and believe me--I went through your exact same steps of trial and error and learning to how to use different programs, etc--you got to ask yourself two questions: 1. Did you have fun doing it? 2. Do you plan to do another product?

IF yes to both, then I suggest you try getting a few pieces of art and learning a layout program (Affinity Publishing is only 50$ and amazing) and putting it all together.
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Ha, I think the thought of learning yet another program would throw me over the edge right now! I enjoy the writing, I even enjoy the map making (though exporting to the correct size/quality is driving me nuts). GIMP seems easy until you try to do something and the layout is driving me insane :grin:
 
Winterblight said:
Ha, I think the thought of learning yet another program would throw me over the edge right now! I enjoy the writing, I even enjoy the map making (though exporting to the correct size/quality is driving me nuts). GIMP seems easy until you try to do something and the layout is driving me insane :grin:
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I hear ya man. I was in your boat. Writing the adventure felt like 30% of the whole "process". I enjoy the writing, I enjoy the map making (once I learned enough to do something--so much more to learn though) and luckily I found I loved doing layout too once understanding the tip of the iceberg of the program....always always always more to learn. Thank goodness for Udemy.
 
Dumarest said:
In the case of a game like the aforementioned Traveller, having practically no art is a boon because players and referees won't draw conclusions about what their Traveller universe should look like and can let their own imaginations fill in the blanks.
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For me game art is kinda like lyrics in a song. When I was younger it was all about the lyrics... but my tastes changed and I discovered that I more often prefer instrumental stuff where I can let my mind wander without some singer shouting at me, insisting on telling me what the music is about.
Sometimes I do listen for the vocals/lyrics... like some people buy game books just for the art. But that's gotten much rarer.
Of course, without art there is a clearer burden on the writing and text layout to keep my interest. Traveller did an excellent job of that.
 
Winterblight said:
That's an angle I never really considered. Thanks. I guess I'm just that used to artwork being on every product and until I tried to do it myself I hadn't even given thought as to why it was there in the first place and that it could be an advantage not being there at all.
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GDW made a virtue of necessity with Traveller. Putting artwork or fancy layout in the books wasn't quite so easy as they predated modern composition systems by about a decade. Apparently they were composed on a linotype machine.

Having said that, halfway decent typography and use of white space can make a text-only book look perfectly good, although MS Word may not be your best choice of composition tool if you want to try this. You may also be able to get suitable stock art from various sources on the interwebs. However, maps are something you will probably have to do in some form for most role playing books - at least adventure modules or regional campaign guides.
 
Simlasa said:
For me game art is kinda like lyrics in a song. When I was younger it was all about the lyrics... but my tastes changed and I discovered that I more often prefer instrumental stuff where I can let my mind wander without some singer shouting at me, insisting on telling me what the music is about.
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That is why I never really liked music videos. Especially the ones that would try to literally portray the lyrics for me. Well, concert videos I don't mind.
 
Dumarest said:
That is why I never really liked music videos. Especially the ones that would try to literally portray the lyrics for me. Well, concert videos I don't mind.
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That's a better analogy. Many videos didn't even have much/any input from the musicians, just some director's idea of what would be 'cool'.
 
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Nobby-W said:
GDW made a virtue of necessity with Traveller. Putting artwork or fancy layout in the books wasn't quite so easy as they predated modern composition systems by about a decade. Apparently they were composed on a linotype machine.

Having said that, halfway decent typography and use of white space can make a text-only book look perfectly good, although MS Word may not be your best choice of composition tool if you want to try this. You may also be able to get suitable stock art from various sources on the interwebs. However, maps are something you will probably have to do in some form for most role playing books - at least adventure modules or regional campaign guides.
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Maps are something I don't mind doing. I think I have the layout of the adventure is finally done, but yeah, Word isn't ideal, especially once you pass the 20 page mark, it just seems to have a mind of its own after that :trigger:. I just need to test the pdf on various devices and see what other things crop up!
 
I'd say humans are animals with sight, and animals with sight respond to visuals. As sad as I am to admit this, I am most positive that stunning art would really bump up attention for my game. Alas, I have zero budget and very little skill.
People's first impression isn't your mechanics. It's not your writing. It's the art.That is what gives the emotional response; it's what gets people interested.
I would love to not make this statement. I would love to think we're better than that. But I don't think we are.
Content is what makes people stay, but art is what makes people pick it up in the first place.
 
Simlasa said:
That's a better analogy. Many videos didn't even have much/any input from the musicians, just some director's idea of what would be 'cool'.
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OTOH, some songs got made by their videos. Stacey's Mom comes to mind - an otherwise unremarkable song made popular by its funny video.
 
TalespinnerEU said:
That is what gives the emotional response; it's what gets people interested.
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or puts them off.
I moved away from D&D early on because I found other games I preferred, but Elmore's art certainly didn't have me looking back in regret.

You're right, of course, that art attracts eyes... but maybe you could get away with one solid piece on the cover, rather than the current mode of covering every page in full-color graphic wankery.
Also, without all the visual widgets, you get a shorter and cheaper book... which is an attraction unto itself... assuming you don't bloat it out with your words.
I love how Classic Traveller looks, but it's also fairly concise. I'd not be so fond of it if it were a 500 page brick.
 
Nobby-W said:
OTOH, some songs got made by their videos. Stacey's Mom comes to mind - an otherwise unremarkable song with a funny video that made it popular.
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I guess that's OK if you don't care that people are buying your game because they like the art despite your ho-hum writing.
Wouldn't be the first time people have gotten excited and talked up a game because of the visuals... but don't end up playing it much.
 
Simlasa said:
I guess that's OK if you don't care that people are buying your game because they like the art despite your ho-hum writing.
Wouldn't be the first time people have gotten excited and talked up a game because of the visuals... but don't end up playing it much.
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Commercially, it doesn't necessarily matter why folks are buying your game. I'm sure Fountains of Wayne were quite happy with their royalty cheques. However, a game has to function as a game, so you can't get away with style over substance indefinitely. It's also nice to think folks are using your product on its merits.
 
Nobby-W said:
However, a game has to function as a game, so you can't get away with style over substance indefinitely. It's also nice to think folks are using your product on its merits.
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I've bought games based on their interesting theme/idea... with not much care for the mechanics, sometimes discovering that that's pretty much all they were... some cool concepts with a quasi-system attached (John Wick has a few of those). I can't say I felt cheated because all I was really after was the cool setting ideas.
I can't say I ever bought a game just for its art though, and nowadays you can easily find so much evocative/inspirational art online.
 
I maintain that classic Traveller is a masterpiece of minimalism. A potentially huge game contained in three small books and without art. When I was first invited to play I asked if their were pictures of weapons and armour, and I was disappointed that the Referee had none to show me.

He made my day by saying the starting equipment looked however I wanted it to.

However, I also accept that most players expect art these days and having none would be a bold statement that might lose you sales.
 
Simlasa said:
You're right, of course, that art attracts eyes... but maybe you could get away with one solid piece on the cover, rather than the current mode of covering every page in full-color graphic wankery.
Also, without all the visual widgets, you get a shorter and cheaper book... which is an attraction unto itself... assuming you don't bloat it out with your words.
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In the words of the White Buffalo: I wish it were true. My website's got some pictures for buttons (hand-drawn by me, a less-than-talented artist with shaking hands, so really low quality), but if I look around me, look at how RPGs are marketed, then it's all pictures, everywhere. Even kickstarters for games are full of pictures, which are not exactly inexpensive.
I have come to the depressing conclusion that people aren't looking for a bargain anymore. That RPGs have perhaps become a bit of an elite hobby with very expensive books, very expensive PDFs, where collection of pretties is a thing in and of itself. And sure, when you get to gaming, it all becomes about substance. But substance is not what attracts an audience.
Maybe some part of me is still in the indie zines mindset. Cheap booklets with lots of text that sold because nerds just wanted to share, didn't have much money to invest in creating or buying, and there was a certain charm to that. It's as if when TS went online and I started trying to shill it, my eyes were opened to the fact that I myself had been living on the fringes and believed those fringes were the norm. I went from knowing only RPGs with homebrewed settings and self-written story arcs to being surrounded by a vast majority of people who only play from modules.
And those people pick up those modules primarily because the atmosphere of the art speaks to them, leafing through the books to stare at pictures to make a purchase decision.
 
Malleustein said:
I maintain that classic Traveller is a masterpiece of minimalism. A potentially huge game contained in three small books and without art. When I was first invited to play I asked if their were pictures of weapons and armour, and I was disappointed that the Referee had none to show me.

He made my day by saying the starting equipment looked however I wanted it to.

However, I also accept that most players expect art these days and having none would be a bold statement that might lose you sales.
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A loss of sales is probably likely, unless you strike it lucky. On the other hand, few of us are going to get rich or expect to get rich, so I'm wondering if the lost sales are made up for by not having to mess about with the layout required for artwork or having to source it in the first place and being able to put out products on a more regular basis.
 
TalespinnerEU said:
My website's got some pictures for buttons (hand-drawn by me, a less-than-talented artist with shaking hands, so really low quality), but if I look around me, look at how RPGs are marketed, then it's all pictures, everywhere. Even kickstarters for games are full of pictures, which are not exactly inexpensive.
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Your buttons are still a couple of orders of magnitude better than what I could produce. The have their own style and everything is recognizable.
 
Winterblight said:
A loss of sales is probably likely, unless you strike it lucky. On the other hand, few of us are going to get rich or expect to get rich, so I'm wondering if the lost sales are made up for by not having to mess about with the layout required for artwork or having to source it in the first place and being able to put out products on a more regular basis.
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I think those are key points.
What do YOU want to get out of it? Is it to make a profit or just to share your ideas? If you want profit then art alone may not be enough (unless it's somehow AMAZING) and you'll have to promote somehow. Calculate those extra hours of work and add that to what you'd need to sell to break even.
If you're more interested in just sharing ideas, why not a blog or an at-cost zine?
Is it a business or a hobby?

Honestly, I think part of my disconnect from all this is I've never felt the drive to turn my hobbies into a business. That path so often seems to lead to misery. I've done illustrations for various gaming projects... never for pay, always for fun... so I can't say I don't appreciate art in games, but I don't see that it's likely to be worth stressing over unless you're really intent on making money with it, which still seems like a crapshoot.
 
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With the knowledge that this is for a Zweihander adventure, supporting a game with a prevalent and defined aesthetic (shall we be kind and say a homage of classic Warhammer?) I imagine an appropriate cover image is a must, but might also be enough. Maps are very useful, but can be included in an appendix.
 
Simlasa said:
If you're more interested in just sharing ideas, why not a blog or an at-cost zine?
Is it a business or a hobby?
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I think of it as 90% hobby 10% sideline. Its nice to see things you write sell, even if its only a few dollars here and there. Ive thought of doing a blog, but blogs are for talking about stuff and i dont do that much. Writing adventures is my thing, though there is no reason why a blog couldnt be about adventure writing i suppose.
 
Malleustein said:
With the knowledge that this is for a Zweihander adventure, supporting a game with a prevalent and defined aesthetic (shall we be kind and say a homage of classic Warhammer?) I imagine an appropriate cover image is a must, but might also be enough. Maps are very useful, but can be included in an appendix.
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Yeah, its for the Community Content Library so in this case art isnt hard to come by. I have the front and back covers sorted, but ive now stripped out any interior art and it looks so much better for it. Maps at the back and a poster battlemap as a seperate document..
 
Winterblight said:
Yeah, its for the Community Content Library so in this case art isnt hard to come by. I have the front and back covers sorted, but ive now stripped out any interior art and it looks so much better for it. Maps at the back and a poster battlemap as a seperate document..
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It sounds like you have everything you need. Interior art is nice, but not a necessity. Readability is more important.
 
Not quite the same thing, but I just a (virtually) no art, (primarily) text only board game, and I gotta say, I feel completely disconnected from the theme.

That said, Heaven's Shadow by John Berry is a text-free RPG that I liked enough to name one of my Top 6 the year I reviewed it.
 
Tommy Brownell said:
That said, Heaven's Shadow by John Berry is a text-free RPG that I liked enough to name one of my Top 6 the year I reviewed it.
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You mean it's art-free? I also like Heaven's Shadow a whole lot, myself:smile:.
Though I still resist the urge to run it, and want someone else to run it for me, first:wink:!
 
Winterblight said:
Thanks for all the thoughts guys. I've published the Tears of Calista on the ZWEIHÄNDER Community Library. When it comes to putting out something under my own publisher account, with the exception of maps, I'm going to go art free as an experiment.
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Congrats!
I'd be curious to hear how the experiment goes.
 
Winterblight said:
Thanks for all the thoughts guys. I've published the Tears of Calista on the ZWEIHÄNDER Community Library. When it comes to putting out something under my own publisher account, with the exception of maps, I'm going to go art free as an experiment.
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Thanks for the compliment earlier!
That being said: I really, really hope you succeed!
 
Thanks guys... I will come back at some point and let you all know how it goes.
 
I don't need art at all. However, I have aphantasia so should be considered an obvious outlier.
 
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