Can we now admit the new 7th Sea is floundering?

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7S2 is hard to measure, because the KS dollars were so skewed since they were throwing in the entire collection of 7S1. How many people are playing 7S2 and how many people went "all-in" on 7S2 and Khitai just for setting info for their 7S1 campaign? Impossible to measure.

If Wick makes fat stacks and not a single person plays 7S2 but people still buy it because it's usable with 7S1, is that a success?

Edit: Yeah, Noman kinda ninja'd me. :grin:
 
Serious, non-snark question: is sales the primary metric for the life of a game?

What about games that still have a strong fan base, but whose sales have slowed or stagnated (GURPS, Hero, etc.)? Where do collectors fit in to the above metric? Is the ratio of people playing the game to people simply owning the game relevant to the lifescycle of a game?

I don't think sales is the primary metric. It is a metric though, and it is an important one. I think it matters, because a company making money off a game, can continue to release support material and give it life (which just gives it a greater chance of being played in general) but ultimately it boils down to whether people are playing it. But my comment was questioning the word floundering. That word does not describe a game company to me that just made 1.3 million dollars off a kickstarter to launch a line.
 
For me, its about reputation. The good games get talked about. Forever. Its like films. There are films that come and go. They might not be bad, might be just fine, but they enter and exit the stage making a few bucks and never make a dent in the zietgeist. They are forgotten. Because there's nothing to talk about. Does anything more need to be said about the Robocop remake? In ten years will anyone even remember it existed? The same goes for games. there's games that people will always talk about. Ars Magica, Amber, Star Wars D6, FASERIP, Warhammer Fantasy, Dragon Warriors, Pendragon. These games are older than the majority of people in college or university. Even something more relatively recent, like Runequest 6th/Mythras. Its been around for years now, but there's still people talking about it excitedly on forums.

The original 7th Sea was a game people talked about. The new one isnt. It might be a fine game, it may make some money, and some groups may have some fun with it. But its made no impression on gaming culture. There's nothing to say about it.
 
I don't think sales is the primary metric. It is a metric though, and it is an important one. I think it matters, because a company making money off a game, can continue to release support material and give it life (which just gives it a greater chance of being played in general) but ultimately it boils down to whether people are playing it. But my comment was questioning the word floundering. That word does not describe a game company to me that just made 1.3 million dollars off a kickstarter to launch a line.

The more I think about this, the more I think you're right.
 
Every time I see this thread come up, I just picture a 7th Sea book flopping around like Goldeen in that first (second?) episode of Pokemon.
 
Every time I see this thread come up, I just picture a 7th Sea book flopping around like Goldeen in that first (second?) episode of Pokemon.

7th Sea! I choose you!*

* I don't know if this is an appropriately funny comment, because I don't know crap about Pokemon.
 
You sure that wasn't Magikarp? I mean, this gif sure seems appropriate.
4faf4c39_magikarp-o.gif

giphy.gif
 
You sure that wasn't Magikarp? I mean, this gif sure seems appropriate.
4faf4c39_magikarp-o.gif
I raised my Magikarp into Gyarados the hard way, in gen 1, swapping it out every fight. Every. Single. Fight.

Because I had the game imported from America, there weren't even any strategy guides here yet, so I didn't know that Splash was useless. I didn't even know it would evolve, I just thought it would learn a real move at some point.

(I need to complete my gen 7 living dex. I've got a gen 6 dex...)
 
You sure that wasn't Magikarp? I mean, this gif sure seems appropriate.
4faf4c39_magikarp-o.gif

giphy.gif
... Well I wasn't gonna make this a real tangent, but sure why not.

Yeah I'm sure. The first time Team Rocket attacks Ash tries to use random pokeballs and one of them has a Goldeen in it. The Goldeen was useless because there was no water around :tongue:
 
Yeahhhhhh...
Srsly. That show (and related things) is like twenty years old now. People who were watching it in school now have kids 'n careers 'n stuff.

This ain't exactly some obscure kid's stuff. Hell, I was too old for it when it came out (13 or 14 I think)
 
Srsly. That show (and related things) is like twenty years old now. People who were watching it in school now have kids 'n careers 'n stuff.

This ain't exactly some obscure kid's stuff. Hell, I was too old for it when it came out (13 or 14 I think)
Me, my then-gf, my brother and some friends were big into Pokemon at the time. We even went to see a couple of the movies in the cinema. Most of us were in our early or late twenties at that time. We also smoked a lot of pot. Good times.

I forgot about the Goldeen thing though. I do remember an epic battle between two metapods, where nothing happened because Metapod cannot really do much until it evolves.

5a2efd00343f45294ddff0d4bfabd62e64595b1f_hq.gif


I had a PC-emulated version of Pokemon Blue where I actually caught Magikarp using a fishing rod and evolved him into Gyarados myself.
 
Dammit kids! Don'cha know retro tech talk goes in the "What Happens to Your Game Collection When You Die?" topic! :thumbsdown: :irritated:

This'n here's for serious food talk! :pizza: :gunslinger::eat:

Place got rules, y'know! :shade: 'N git off my lawn, too! :argh:
 
Also, in relation to the OP, I am having trouble why anyone is seeing 7th Sea as floundering. The first kickstarter was through the roof and the latest kickstarter was funded almost right away. If swimming in a sea of 1.3 million dollars to make an RPG is floundering, that sounds like an awfully good problem to have.

Please note my OP long predates the 2nd kickstarter's results and I was attributing the relatively low level of online discussion to serious buyer's remorse once people tried to actually enjoy the partial bait-and-switch.

All I know now is that, chatter about the game remains really low and isolated and I'm not sure why.
 
I'm kind of bemused at the idea that only kids watched the Pokemon cartoons.
 
I'm kind of bemused at the idea that only kids watched the Pokemon cartoons.

I guess I wasnt aware of an adult audience. Like Power Rangers, by the time I was aware of its existence no one in my friend groups paid it any attention, despite us all still being the sorts who would get up early Saturday mornings for cartoons, before those stopped being a thing.
 
I realize that there are a number of adults into Pokemon now but at the time the cartoons first appeared I was older and don't recall even my nerdiest friends being fans.
 
I don’t know anything about Pokémon and I like it that way. :hmmm:
Back before I realised I was terrible at card games, I met some kids who played Pokemon. But nowadays it seems to be all about burying your head in your phone and walking out into traffic to get that one elusive thing.
 
Having watched several episodes of the pokemon cartoon with a nephew, I find there isn't enough substance to it for an adult to enjoy. It's pretty close to humorless, and relentlessly sincere in all the worst ways. I say this as someone who has watched many cartoons and enjoyed them as an adult. I'll admit it's a very relaxing world to spend time in, but then, why not just play the video games?
 
Getting back to 7th Sea for a moment, here's an interesting recent blog post: https://braceofpistols.wordpress.com/2017/11/03/john-wick-on-running-7th-sea/

And here's a key excerpt from that post:

I get the impression that John Wick’s experience running 7th Sea is that of a series a highly episodic sessions and one-shot, not as a long-running serial that us old timers aspire to run. Now part of that is probably the nature of the biz: when most of your play comes from demos and con-hopping, that’s what your experience is going to be. Or if you are used to switching RPGs often or troupe-style GM play. But for those of who dig in for long haul campaigns, there is something of a disconnect in the advice given. (I hold all RPG developers to the unrealistic expectation that they, like Gary Gygax, run a weekly open table game for migrating groups of players for years to test out ideas and new rules – which the man did for both D&D and Lejendary Adventure. So keep that in perspective. And yes, I know almost none of them actually do that.)

My dream a big 7th Sea GM roundtable where everyone gets deep in the weeds Angry GM style on how to make the game sing like a siren is still unfulfilled. So if you’re listening JWP, put that on your list for 2018.
 
I guess I wasnt aware of an adult audience. Like Power Rangers, by the time I was aware of its existence no one in my friend groups paid it any attention, despite us all still being the sorts who would get up early Saturday mornings for cartoons, before those stopped being a thing.

I realize that there are a number of adults into Pokemon now but at the time the cartoons first appeared I was older and don't recall even my nerdiest friends being fans.

I knew lots of adults who watched Pokemon and Power Rangers at the time they were popular. There was totally an adult audience. I don't know how large it was, I just know it existed.
 
Getting back to 7th Sea for a moment, here's an interesting recent blog post: https://braceofpistols.wordpress.com/2017/11/03/john-wick-on-running-7th-sea/

And here's a key excerpt from that post:
I get the impression that John Wick’s experience running 7th Sea is that of a series a highly episodic sessions and one-shot, not as a long-running serial that us old timers aspire to run. Now part of that is probably the nature of the biz: when most of your play comes from demos and con-hopping, that’s what your experience is going to be. Or if you are used to switching RPGs often or troupe-style GM play. But for those of who dig in for long haul campaigns, there is something of a disconnect in the advice given.

I think it's perfectly OK for a designer to say "I'm sorry but this game won't work well for that sort of environment, and changing it to do so would make it worse at the sort of things I want it to do, so I'm not doing that". But... if that's the case, the information needs to be passed on to purchasers, so they can make an informed decision. There's a tragic lack of "what this game is designed for" in mainstream games, it's usually just the standard "imagination, adventure, anyone you want to be" blurb.
 
pokemon.jpg


:errr::crossed::closed::irritated: I did toy retail during that damn craze! :argh: Fer all you meddling kids trying to vault over the register counter like salmon to see if we got latest video or card game stock -- poop on you! :crap: :fu: Where the hell were your mothers!? :trigger::angry: Oh that's right, throwing a shit fit :crap: right next to you, 'cuz they were off schedule from collecting their McDonald Happy Meal Ty Beanie Babies collectibles! :argh: Goddamn mindless cattle! :irritated: So angry! :evil: Now git off my lawn!:gunslinger: Git! :devil:

We prerecord our show topic and then we take your questions! :weep: How goddamn hard is this?
 
:errr::crossed::closed::irritated: I did toy retail during that damn craze! :argh: Fer all you meddling kids trying to vault over the register counter like salmon to see if we got latest video or card game stock -- poop on you! :crap: :fu: Where the hell were your mothers!? :trigger::angry: Oh that's right, throwing a shit fit :crap: right next to you, 'cuz they were off schedule from collecting their McDonald Happy Meal Ty Beanie Babies collectibles! :argh: Goddamn mindless cattle! :irritated: So angry! :evil: Now git off my lawn!:gunslinger: Git! :devil:

We prerecord our show topic and then we take your questions! :weep: How goddamn hard is this?
Let me present actual footage of Opaopajr on the job.
 
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