Seen on the interwebs today - Traveller as a furry universe

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My initial impulse was that people were reacting to furry kink stuff but I think I'm wrong. I've got me a THESIS type thingie! So, in the sixties, science fiction was trying very hard to become a respectable adult genre with a bit more sex and less violence and more science and this is the period that gives us our ideas on "hard" science fiction. And there in lies the issue, especially when it comes to Traveller. In our culture, anthropomorphized animals are identified with children's books and visual media. The real impulse behind disliking furry aliens is that they are seen as childish. There are plenty of good reasons to use animal people and plenty of good reasons not to but there is a lurking fear of being seen as childish that also reflects on furry fandom as they are adults dressing up and pretending to be animal people.

As I noted before, the only life forms we have any actual evidence of are terrestrial ones so it is very reasonable to base aliens on them from a "hard science" point of view. Genetic modification could be motivated by a wide range of desires but even sexual fetishes point to a desire to create a recognizable under class of non-humans for any number of reasons that would also include expendable canon fodder, compliant workers, alternate social structures, specialized capabilities like a dog's sense of smell, or even better medical test subjects (in my own setting rats become sentient as a result of lab tinkering, their terrorist organization is called NIHM.) With surgery and biological constructs, animal traits might become fashionable, with cat ears and tails being purchased at the local tattoo and piercing joint. These might even have cultural significance or be tied to specific social roles, the police might all wear dog's heads and the judges rams, plaintiffs weasels, and priests bulls. An interesting notion for a baroque setting.

One other thing you often see is a backlash against digigrade feet as ridiculous or less functional and yet we've seen a number of walking robots use a very similar system in recent years.
As someone who really doesn't like furries in science fiction I want to speak to this. Because I think you're essentially correct. Parallel evolution is real and it's probably, on balance of probability likely that we would discover aliens that look like something we would recognise (the so called bumpy fore-headed humanoids) than twelve limbed llizardlike creatures with something that resembles butterfly wings and two brains.

But...I think getting across that sense of the alien is important. It's like when you read history. You can read a lot of history and think "oh it's people being people so familar". For example you read about 6th century Constantinople and you see that the primary thing that people were concerned about was whether the blues chariot team is better than the greens chariot team, and you think "I know that - I know people like that", but then you read further and findout that the other main topic of conversation amongst everyday people was whether the father and the son were of one substance or two - and that this was a crucial concern of everyday life and not just some esoteric academic concern. Or you read that people thought it was a great idea to find a pillar and climb it and then live on top of it for thirty years. History is that combination of the strikingly familiar and the unthinkably alien.

And I like science fiction to address that too. If that's what history is like then that's what the future will be like when viewed from the perspective of the present- and it doesn't feel like a future at all to me unless it conveys some sense of that.

Dog people and cat people are just too familiar to me to feel right. Now if as alien species you were to flip their personalities - so that cat people have doglike behaviour and dog people act like cats because evolution on their worlds has been similar but not quite the same, then we're getting there.

Similarly uplifted dogs. I don't necessarily object to the concept - but I'd want that to be something distinctly uncanny.
 
Dog people and cat people are just too familiar to me to feel right.
Why? Couldn't they be part of the "strikingly familiar":thumbsup:?
And then an everyday topic of conversation would be whether uplifts have souls, and what that means for the capacity of human science:shade:?

Cue mad scientists, people denying uplifts could have souls, and people assuming that as soon as any life is created, a soul fills it, but that's not the merit of the creators:grin:!


...damn it, now I need to add this to my homebrew setting. Because uplifted killer whales, octopi and dolphins weren't enough:devil:!
 
Spacemaster Privateers ditched SM2's long list of transhumans for furries. Never the less, I quite like them and wish they'd done more with the setting. The Valesians aren't anthropomorphized velociraptors, they're velociraptors that are barely sentient and blindingly fast. And, well, very rational in the sense that cowardice and canibalism are very rational. You, you're either a threat, prey, or perhaps useful but you're never a friend or an ally those are ridiculous and irrational notions.
 
Spacemaster Privateers ditched SM2's long list of transhumans for furries. Never the less, I quite like them and wish they'd done more with the setting. The Valesians aren't anthropomorphized velociraptors, they're velociraptors that are barely sentient and blindingly fast. And, well, very rational in the sense that cowardice and canibalism are very rational. You, you're either a threat, prey, or perhaps useful but you're never a friend or an ally those are ridiculous and irrational notions.
So, sociopathic velociraptors capable of rational thought?
 
Why? Couldn't they be part of the "strikingly familiar":thumbsup:?
No it feels like something I can predict. These people look like cats - I bet they act like cats too. That would be our initial unconscious expectation on seeing an alien that looks like a big anthropomorphic cat.

Therefore they shouldn't act like cats.
 
No it feels like something I can predict. These people look like cats - I bet they act like cats too. That would be our initial unconscious expectation on seeing an alien that looks like a big anthropomorphic cat.

Therefore they shouldn't act like cats.
What if they act like humans, instead:grin:?
 
SPAM's expressed reason for using furry aliens was to make them easy to relate to and play. The setting was also very focused on playing privateers in a desperate losing battle against an evil cat guy empire. One thing I think works very well is that both empires have all the same races so it's possible to infiltrate and do espionage. Well, except for the wolf guys, they just don't get on well with the cat guys because both races are obsessed with personal honor but have very different definitions of what that is. Then there's the pacifist bear guys, who are the villains behind the war.
 
So, there's this race of bear guys and they're all big softies who are pacifist vegans and really into agriculture. Meanwhile the cat guy empire has lost a war with the good and noble if not too smart human federation. The cat guys even have an emperor who wants to make sure the peace holds. But the federation's cat guys like to fight and they might rebel if there isn't an evil empire to fight soon just so they have someone to fight. They say, "If god hadn't intended us to fight she wouldn't have made us perfect." Suddenly a gang of pacifist bear guys overthrow the empire's government and start a war, using all the technological advantages they've stolen that the federation had in the first war (I told you they weren't very smart). It's interesting that the bear guys have carnivorous teeth and claws but are all vegetarians isn't it? Are the psycho bears the ones who have some kind of psychic poisoning or is it the pacifists who have been meddled with? The federation is losing ground fast and decides to issue letters of marque to private captains and install a mark ten laser for free in hopes of disrupting enemy supply lines. Enter the player characters.
 
We can track animal usage as people in Sci-fi back to at least the Island of Dr. Moreau. So, it's time to get over it gentlefolk.

Might as well claim that Animal Farm is furry. Neither of these novels has a sexual focus. If the majority of H. G. Wells and George Orwell fans reported sexual feelings towards the creatures depicted in those books, I would concede your point. Not trying to be argumentative, or a dick, here, but I don't believe people enjoy Wells' and Orwell's works in the same way, or for the same reasons, that furries pursue their interests. And while I know that there are ostensibly non-sexually motivated furries, I think that, for most of them, it's a kink/fetish, or whatever you want to call it.
 
I think its fucking ridiculous that not minding furry animal aliens (or fantasy races for that matter) should somehow equate to be being a furry. I have no problem with the Tabaxi or the Bear Folk from Kobold press. Anyone who doesn't like that can kiss my hairy ass. :shade:
 
I think its fucking ridiculous that not minding furry animal aliens (or fantasy races for that matter) should somehow equate to be being a furry. I have no problem with the Tabaxi or the Bear Folk from Kobold press. Anyone who doesn't like that can kiss my hairy ass. :shade:
Interesting choice of words...:grin:
Other than that, I fully agree and wouldn't think that anyone who wants to play, say, an Aslan is interested in furry sex. What would worry me there would be any potential interest in making them Hairy Space Toshiro Mifune Characters:tongue:!


Also, I find the idea that the pacifistic bears would start a war a bit...contradictory. How come nobody asked them the reason for it?

And why weren't those guys omnivores, as they should be:devil:?
 
Might as well claim that Animal Farm is furry. Neither of these novels has a sexual focus. If the majority of H. G. Wells and George Orwell fans reported sexual feelings towards the creatures depicted in those books, I would concede your point. Not trying to be argumentative, or a dick, here, but I don't believe people enjoy Wells' and Orwell's works in the same way, or for the same reasons, that furries pursue their interests. And while I know that there are ostensibly non-sexually motivated furries, I think that, for most of them, it's a kink/fetish, or whatever you want to call it.


There is a LOT, and I do mean an IMMENSE amount of furry art and writing that is sheer porn, but sometimes, it's just being connected to a character--or characters without any sexuality, I mean, some of the art I like is just 'cute' characters, all G-rated, and definitely no sexual thoughts on them, but I /like the character./

Like Florence from Freefall, I don't want sexual art of her. She's an uplifted wolf and a wonderfully fun character, but nope, nothing there. Sorry to bust your chops, but some of it is just liking a character like I like the heroine in Wearing the Cape: Astra, but nope, no sexual thoughts for her either--and she's a human. (Never mind in the most recent books she's the under age of my youngest niece.), but I appreciate the character and the story without sex need to be involved.
Maybe it's that some of us are less likely to assume a perverted interest in something because someone likes a thing. (I know some adult MLP fans, but I know they don't hunt down PORN of them, and yes, Rule 34 says it exists, no I don't know for sure.)
 
There is a LOT, and I do mean an IMMENSE amount of furry art and writing that is sheer porn, but sometimes, it's just being connected to a character--or characters without any sexuality, I mean, some of the art I like is just 'cute' characters, all G-rated, and definitely no sexual thoughts on them, but I /like the character./

Like Florence from Freefall, I don't want sexual art of her. She's an uplifted wolf and a wonderfully fun character, but nope, nothing there. Sorry to bust your chops, but some of it is just liking a character like I like the heroine in Wearing the Cape: Astra, but nope, no sexual thoughts for her either--and she's a human. (Never mind in the most recent books she's the under age of my youngest niece.), but I appreciate the character and the story without sex need to be involved.
Maybe it's that some of us are less likely to assume a perverted interest in something because someone likes a thing. (I know some adult MLP fans, but I know they don't hunt down PORN of them, and yes, Rule 34 says it exists, no I don't know for sure.)


I don't feel like you're busting my chops at all, man. We good, and we gone be good.
 
Also, I find the idea that the pacifistic bears would start a war a bit...contradictory. How come nobody asked them the reason for it?

And why weren't those guys omnivores, as they should be:devil:?

One of the reasons I wish ICE'd done the setting books they promised is that we might have gotten an answer. My own theory is that the telepathic bug queens are behind it and they probably messed with the bear guys to make them pacifists. But yeah, in setting, everyone would love to know why the bear guys are going psycho, because it's spreading.
 
One of the reasons I wish ICE'd done the setting books they promised is that we might have gotten an answer. My own theory is that the telepathic bug queens are behind it and they probably messed with the bear guys to make them pacifists. But yeah, in setting, everyone would love to know why the bear guys are going psycho, because it's spreading.
So the pacifists are those who still haven't thrown off the programming by the bug queens, and the others are overcompensating for missing the fun for all that time:grin:?
 
Probably, the reason there are these seven races scattered about known space is assumed to be the result of ancient alien experiments. That's the only evidence they've got but it's certainly suspicious. The Earth is interesting in that it appears to have been intended for the velociraptors but had a cometary impact and was reset for humans. That might be the only clue and it might mean the ancients were the velociraptors and not the super smart hamster guys.

Still, the bug queens are capable of ftl communications without technology. If it was the super smart hamster guys they would have done the cat guys first, their primary argument against gearing up the cat guys was that they look like cat toys. The whole reason the cat guys have an empire is that a hamster guy ship crashed on their world and the cat guys still lean heavily on the hamster guys for tech support. Stockholm syndrome I guess.

If I was still in good graces with ICE and had the money to back it I'd do a miniatures game set on the dog guy world that the cat guys are trying to bomb into extinction. All the dog guys in known space dream of going there one day to participate in the ultimate last stand. The world is known as Defiance, sadly I'm pretty sure there's already a table top game with that name.
 
The art in Other Suns had a very nice Disney film vibe. I'd love to see a Disney Traveller movie. Even though they'd wreck it.

Taking it back to Traveller, the furry races in SPAM are quite distinct and mistaking a Tulgar for a Vargr would be a fatal mistake though the Vargr are diverse enough that the Tulgar could just be a Vargr subspecies. SPAM takes a more Aesop's fables approach to it's races.

The lupine Tulgar are noble warriors who never got past medieval technology because they like it that way. When the first ship landed they camped armies around it and were disappointed that they didn't get to die in desperate battle against a technologically superior foe. They are one of the most psychic races.

The feline Falar are warriors and hunters obsessed with personal glory an position. There are three subspecies of Falar, the Lion like-Falanar, the Tiger-like Falron, and the housecat-like Falaris. The game stats don't match the fluff very well and despite being smaller and weaker, the Falaris would utterly dominate the other two races in Spacemaster combat.

The ursine Kagoth are big cuddly teddy bears who might just turn into psychopathic killer bears sometime. They like plants and honey and would gladly wear a Hawaiian shirt. They are one of the more psychic races.

The Valesians are velociraptors. The will eat you if you weaken. They ate the first couple first contact teams. Most of them work in sanitation engineering, they don't really care as long as they're fed and clearly understand the immediate consequences of attacking others in public. I feel the low reasoning and memory stats they've been given make them largely unplayable. Unless you're a murderhobo, they're basically murderhobo the race.

The Xanotasians are inscrutable bug people with only four limbs. They have gigantic queens who are bigger than the Kagoth and ultimate psychic powers but you can't play one because reasons. You can play a drone. It's like being a Thri Keen jedi if the force was amoral and non-judgmental. But except your hive mother is moral and judgmental.

The Oorts are hamster like or perhaps Hobbit Cousin It. The average Oort is smarter than Einstein. +10 Memory and Reason bonus and 2:1 purchasing on all academic and science skills. In my campaign the one player's character was Batholemeeew the Angry Oort. He built an ATX hamster ball and cut out holes in the bulkheads for it to pass through.

Humans are a weird monkey race that thought it was a good idea to talk to all these other races. They probably wanted to have sex with them. They're really bad at psychic stuff.

All in all the races in SPAM lack the depth and breadth of Traveller races and are basically cardboard cutouts that draw on our cultural impressions of animal personalities.

Of course, there's also a broad spectrum between The Wind In The Willows where the animals are really just psuedonyms for humans who simply behave like humans and Watership Down where the rabbits are pretty much rabbits with a few human traits thrown in.

I did stat up a range of anthropomorphic races for Galaxies in Shadow because they're quite generic. I've always been a bit hesitant about doing so as I know there are a lot of sf gamers who will simply reject a game on the basis of their presence. None the less, that didn't stop me from using math in the game so I don't suppose it was a real issue.
 
I preferred Geriatric Jujitsu Gerbils.

In my own games I've done a number of non-furry races. I've got bacterial plaques that grow around fiberglass armatures, water filtering tuber bureaucrats, trilateral reducing scavengers that look like muppets, feathered velociraptors, dung beetles that never invented recycling, parasitic leech/waterbug hybrids native to a world with corrosive swamps, quadrilateral avians that surgically alter agents to look like winged humans, nanotech-blobs who started out as a parasite and host species that think dying humans are the funniest thing they've ever seen, robots that duplicate organic biospheres and are analogous to various ecological niches, psychic stingray-like filters who find humanity's psychic noise unbearable. I dunno, lots of crazy stuff.

Traveller has the Stalkers who look a bit like they were assembled from five pieces of insulation foam and a plastic Easter egg. They live in swamps and communicate with light flashes and think the stars are whispering behind their backs. The Llewony a species of sapient plant life. Vegans, with three tentacles on their arms and legs and a head that only contains visual receptors. I dunno, lots of crazy stuff.
 
My longstanding take is that people who freak out over the prospect that someone, somewhere out there, MIGHT be having paraphilic sex over some element or another of RPGs are acting more pathetic than the purported paraphiliacs might be.

It's doubly amusing given that each and every one of us are playing games of make-pretend. Y'know, the ones that 95% of the gen pop consider themselves to have "outgrown" by the time they hit middle school. In their eyes, we're all a bunch of weirdos, every single one of us, and quite possibly they don't exonerate us for wasting our time playing "wizards" and "elves" and "space marines" and "timecops" just because we're not having sex in costume.

Layer in that most of us don't know any furries, and like as not have never met one, and the hilarity increases.
 
Like Florence from Freefall . . . [
This is now the third thread, over three different forums, in which Florence Ambrose is trotted out as the exemplar of Furry's Not Just About Yiffing.

Uncanny.

. . . I don't want sexual art of her.
Yeah, apparently quite a few fans disagree with you there.

d4dzqi0-249aca4c-dfda-4b44-8a54-eca091e45ef8.jpg
florence_ambrose_magazine_fanart_by_twokinds-d4wzk8u.jpg
d4twd8n-a93f5fd2-1cd6-4490-b8a0-4120a8d4e56e.jpg

There are literally dozens more like these.

She's an uplifted wolf and a wonderfully fun character, but nope, nothing there.
I absolutely believe you when you say that, Silverlion Silverlion, truly I do, and it must really suck when you get lumped in with the fetishists.

It also kinda sucks for me as a Traveller fan when someone points at Florence and says, see, just like Vargr, because FUCK NO.

(EDITED BY MOD TO ADD SPOILER ON IMAGES)
 
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My longstanding take is that people who freak out over the prospect that someone, somewhere out there, MIGHT be having paraphilic sex over some element or another of RPGs are acting more pathetic than the purported paraphiliacs might be.

It's doubly amusing given that each and every one of us are playing games of make-pretend. Y'know, the ones that 95% of the gen pop consider themselves to have "outgrown" by the time they hit middle school. In their eyes, we're all a bunch of weirdos, every single one of us, and quite possibly they don't exonerate us for wasting our time playing "wizards" and "elves" and "space marines" and "timecops" just because we're not having sex in costume.

Layer in that most of us don't know any furries, and like as not have never met one, and the hilarity increases.

Saying that people are "freaking out" is a bit of an overstatement. Not wanting to have anyone's sexual interests take center stage in your game is OK, if that's not your (or your group's) trip. It's a matter of normal and healthy boundaries. If I found a way to make my IRL sexual interests not only part of, but the focus of my gaming (and by extension, everyone else at the table's), I'd expect people to take issue with it. Your gaming table might be different. That's fine. But just expecting people to be involved, even passively, in your sexual interests, regardless of their consent or comfort level, is not OK. You are right that it is unlikely to come up for most people, and therefore probably not worth worrying about very much. That having been said, there's a big difference between being worried that "someone, somewhere" is having a certain kind of sex, and dealing with it at your table. I've been in the position to have to shut down players or even GMs who failed to recognize boundaries. Whether it involves fursuits, whips & chains, swinging from the chandelier, or good-old-fashioned-man-on-top-get-it-over-with-quick type of sex, if people don't want to be involved, then others should respect that. I wouldn't want to play with a bunch of straight people who wouldn't shut up about their sex lives either. If your character concept is "Middle aged married man who has boring vanilla sex with his wife on the regular and in fact is about to do so again RIGHT NOW", I don't think I'd be comfortable gaming with you.
 
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Yeah, as much as I want to say something snide, she has a human lover and the current story-line is about meeting his parents. It's there, it's just not drawn in that style.

Albedo also has shower scenes and cleavage.

It doesn't really bother me.
 
This is now the third thread, over three different forums, in which Florence Ambrose is trotted out as the exemplar of Furry's Not Just About Yiffing.

Uncanny.


Yeah, apparently quite a few fans disagree with you there.

d4dzqi0-249aca4c-dfda-4b44-8a54-eca091e45ef8.jpg
florence_ambrose_magazine_fanart_by_twokinds-d4wzk8u.jpg
d4twd8n-a93f5fd2-1cd6-4490-b8a0-4120a8d4e56e.jpg


There are literally dozens more like these.


I absolutely believe you when you say that, Silverlion Silverlion, truly I do, and it must really suck when you get lumped in with the fetishists.

It also kinda sucks for me as a Traveller fan when someone points at Florence and says, see, just like Vargr, because FUCK NO.


Steven Gallacci, creator of Albedo, took issue with the fandom's sexualizing of his creation. "Erma Felna, naked, holding a crowbar" became something of a meme in the furry community for a bit. He even wrote a 1 or 2 page cartoon about this, and his displeasure with it.

Yeah, as much as I want to say something snide, she has a human lover and the current story-line is about meeting his parents. It's there, it's just not drawn in that style.

Albedo also has shower scenes and cleavage.

It doesn't really bother me.

Albedo has some VERY brief, understated and not explicit or even "titillating" scenes of romance and day-to-day life including characters bathing. Not the same. And this is coming from someone who is really, obviously not a fan of furry stuff.
 
My longstanding take is that people who freak out over the prospect that someone, somewhere out there, MIGHT be having paraphilic sex over some element or another of RPGs are acting more pathetic than the purported paraphiliacs might be.

It's doubly amusing given that each and every one of us are playing games of make-pretend. Y'know, the ones that 95% of the gen pop consider themselves to have "outgrown" by the time they hit middle school. In their eyes, we're all a bunch of weirdos, every single one of us, and quite possibly they don't exonerate us for wasting our time playing "wizards" and "elves" and "space marines" and "timecops" just because we're not having sex in costume.

Layer in that most of us don't know any furries, and like as not have never met one, and the hilarity increases.
Well, “Furry” these days has disambiguated into people who like anthropomorphics, people who go full fur suit and hit the convention circuit, people who like to pretend or actually think they’re a shapeshifter, people who like to pretend or think they’re a reincarnated animal (outside mainstream religious practice, Otherkin is other, to distinguish from Elfkin, where the roots of that community started.) and intersected with these are people who get off on anthropomorphic porn.
The numbers, however, are clear - actual Zoophilia is at a higher proportion among any breed of furry then the general population, and actually possessing bestiality porn is illegal. The most rabid anti-Yiffers you’ll find are non-Yiffing furries of any stripe.

On the one hand, gaming’s had enough Moral Panics from the likes of Pat Pulling and the Intersectional Komissars.
On the other hand, any community has a right to set standards for itself, and truly being accepting of everything isn’t a virtue, it’s a sign of geek fallacies at work. That’s really more pathetic than the furries or their detractors. :wink:
 
This is now the third thread, over three different forums, in which Florence Ambrose is trotted out as the exemplar of Furry's Not Just About Yiffing.

Uncanny.


Yeah, apparently quite a few fans disagree with you there.

d4dzqi0-249aca4c-dfda-4b44-8a54-eca091e45ef8.jpg
florence_ambrose_magazine_fanart_by_twokinds-d4wzk8u.jpg
d4twd8n-a93f5fd2-1cd6-4490-b8a0-4120a8d4e56e.jpg


There are literally dozens more like these.


I absolutely believe you when you say that, Silverlion Silverlion, truly I do, and it must really suck when you get lumped in with the fetishists.

It also kinda sucks for me as a Traveller fan when someone points at Florence and says, see, just like Vargr, because FUCK NO.

Jesus, cap’n, get some spoiler blocks in there. NSFW as fuck.
 
I see two totally different issues.

1. Is Traveller a furry rpg? Yea, technically in that some species have fur. But I don't recall any official material from official sources playing up any sexual aspect or interspecies sex. And if they did, so what?

2. Are cat people a good idea in a game. It's popular but kinda lazy and has been done to death - Trek has a cat species and I bet Star Wars has at least one. At the time Traveller was getting started, the Kzin were popular; after that Cherryh had her Chanur novels. It's hardly surprising that Traveller would tap into that by having anthropomorphic cats. Vargr tap into the uplift ideas floating around in SF. Traveller did give both races cool ships and stuff. Plus these species are just a few of the available species and aliens are just a small part of the game. So it's no big deal.

If one were to make a new game or setting today, I think I'd be less forgiving of cat people. For example, Tabaxi are just pandering and are not needed.
 
I've known of the "furry" races in Traveller, but as an outsider I've never viewed Traveller as a "furry universe."

Although, now I desperately want a space opera style RPG titled "Furry Universe" because that just sounds awesome.
 
This is now the third thread, over three different forums, in which Florence Ambrose is trotted out as the exemplar of Furry's Not Just About Yiffing.

Uncanny.
Funnily enough, the first time I ever heard about Freefall was in the context of an article about media with an obvious Traveller influence.
 
I think its fucking ridiculous that not minding furry animal aliens (or fantasy races for that matter) should somehow equate to be being a furry. I have no problem with the Tabaxi or the Bear Folk from Kobold press. Anyone who doesn't like that can kiss my hairy ass. :shade:
In exchange for gracing my short term memory with your fabulous imagery, I'll just leave this little gem from my last-but-one sojourn to Indonesia here - for context, seen on the wall of a hipster-ish cafe in Solo.

KissMyHairyAss.jpg
 
In exchange for gracing my short term memory with your fabulous imagery, I'll just leave this little gem from my last-but-one sojourn to Indonesia here - for context, seen on the wall of a hipster-ish cafe in Solo.

Speaking of the Starbucks Mermaid, I like the progression of her image.
571F8571-A0A9-43CB-805E-D30C3DDB5B93.jpeg
 
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