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Even Hunter: The Reckoning was a Jonny-come-lately addition to the WoD - released in 1999. It didn’t win much critical approval. The original hunters book was a Vampire supplement called Hunter’s Hunted, of course.
was that the book that introduced Sam Haight?
 
But Nightlife tried to do the whole setting in a single book, and barely registered as a successful game line by comparison. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done that way, but you do have to consider that strong themes and independent games was a hallmark of WoD games.
As with a lot of games that aren't a big publisher, it couldn't sustain itself.
I'm just saying that as with the NWoD approach, the mechanics are going to end up being similar anyway, so the difference is in how each group approaches them - like Mages are all about the Quintessence, whereas Garou do not tap it directly and Vampires don't really have it at all (the closest equivalent would be Blood).

JG
 
Only thing I know about Nightlife is the legendary cover artwork.

But I was a fan of The Everlasting line
 
As with a lot of games that aren't a big publisher, it couldn't sustain itself.
I'm just saying that as with the NWoD approach, the mechanics are going to end up being similar anyway, so the difference is in how each group approaches them - like Mages are all about the Quintessence, whereas Garou do not tap it directly and Vampires don't really have it at all (the closest equivalent would be Blood).

JG
White Wolf wasn’t a big publisher when it started (about the same time).

All I’m saying is that the NWoD approach is boring by comparison to the original games which, to be fair, is what I assumed we were talking about when the point was originally raised.
 
Yeah, and the whole premise of NWoD was making the concepts more fungible especially given that they were comparable between lines if not synonymous.

JG
 
Sam Haight was introduced as an antagonist in Rite of Passage. At the time he was a decent antagonist - how he turned into superbadguy I've no idea.
 
Something I've noticed is that there seems to be much less of a DIY culture around the OWoD/NWoD games than there is for a lot of other RPGs and settings. Like, I don't think I've run across any blogs, zines or YouTube channels devoted to homebrew content for them. I'd think urban fantasy/horror would generate more of that sort of thing.
I have seen blogs recounting game sessions, reviewing products... a few conversions of other settings to the rule system (Cthulhu, Hellraiser, Silent Hill, Warhammer Fantasy, other Storyteller settings)... but that's about it.
Did there use to be more of that sort of thing, back in the heyday? Or does the structure of the games somehow work against it, lessen the demand? No need for endless lists of spells, feats, monsters, mapped locations? Did the splatbooks satisfy those desires?
Are there troves of fan-made content out there and I'm just not finding them?
 
Something I've noticed is that there seems to be much less of a DIY culture around the OWoD/NWoD games than there is for a lot of other RPGs and settings. Like, I don't think I've run across any blogs, zines or YouTube channels devoted to homebrew content for them. I'd think urban fantasy/horror would generate more of that sort of thing.
I have seen blogs recounting game sessions, reviewing products... a few conversions of other settings to the rule system (Cthulhu, Hellraiser, Silent Hill, Warhammer Fantasy, other Storyteller settings)... but that's about it.
Did there use to be more of that sort of thing, back in the heyday? Or does the structure of the games somehow work against it, lessen the demand? No need for endless lists of spells, feats, monsters, mapped locations? Did the splatbooks satisfy those desires?
Are there troves of fan-made content out there and I'm just not finding them?

There used to be a massive website full of homebrew oWoD stuff back in the day. Try searching for Djinn the Wishing or Dragon the Embers I think. Whether the site still exists I do not know.
 
Something I've noticed is that there seems to be much less of a DIY culture around the OWoD/NWoD games than there is for a lot of other RPGs and settings. Like, I don't think I've run across any blogs, zines or YouTube channels devoted to homebrew content for them. I'd think urban fantasy/horror would generate more of that sort of thing.
I have seen blogs recounting game sessions, reviewing products... a few conversions of other settings to the rule system (Cthulhu, Hellraiser, Silent Hill, Warhammer Fantasy, other Storyteller settings)... but that's about it.
Did there use to be more of that sort of thing, back in the heyday? Or does the structure of the games somehow work against it, lessen the demand? No need for endless lists of spells, feats, monsters, mapped locations? Did the splatbooks satisfy those desires?
Are there troves of fan-made content out there and I'm just not finding them?
There was a mass of DIY culture for WoD games during the 90s. The problem is that WoD has gone through multiple versions and multiple ownerships since that developing point.

I personally used to love Ander’s Mage Page.
 
Did there use to be more of that sort of thing, back in the heyday?

Fuck yeah, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting someone's WoD hack or Heartbreaker. Jeeze, I'd say the most homebrewed game this side of D&D.

But they killed WoD kinda around the same time the Internet was slowly taking over everyone's lives.
 
The Storyteller's Vault has a fairly robust community of oWoD and Chronicles stuff and there are a couple of very good podcasts. However, most of the stuff is oWoD (70% maybe my estimation). Again, my 2 cents is that the Chronicles stuff is hard to get into because the material is so dense (but excellent) and the rules are very very heavy (very good, but very heavy). The chronicles stuff has some really innovative ideas - play as created beings trying to find their way in the world (Promethean); rogue agent smiths (Demon); escaped created mutants pursued by their enemies w/ Cronenburg body-horror (Deviant); etc.
 
The thread title made me think this was about playing the plain mortals games using the nWoD core rules.

Anyways, that was a good way to play, and a solid horror gameline in it's own right.
 
What are people's thoughts on Vamp Dark Ages 20th?
I love history, especially the crusades so VtDA was always my favorite. I actually just ordered VDA20 (only had 1e).
Whenever running a campaign I usually tell players, "you are going to change history so be forewarned." That way I don't have to worry about EVERY darn detail for later periods. Even starting form a fall of Western Rome point allows more room for not know too much since many didn't know much beyond locally.
Also, you can use VtDA as a fantasy horror campaign. Something akin to Castlevania, Elric, Midnight, or even the Witcher (in atmosphere). A similar 'real' world taken over by vampires, fighting back the barbaric werewolves of the borderlands, the imperial Mages of the south/east/west/north/whatever while also being invaded by changelings from the Myst Lands of Avalon.
And on a political level they fight against their allies the Fallen as the demons seek to take over from a political side and fighting the last remaining Hunters who are trying to 'save' the remnants of humanity.
But that's just a thought.
 
I love history, especially the crusades so VtDA was always my favorite. I actually just ordered VDA20 (only had 1e).
Whenever running a campaign I usually tell players, "you are going to change history so be forewarned." That way I don't have to worry about EVERY darn detail for later periods. Even starting form a fall of Western Rome point allows more room for not know too much since many didn't know much beyond locally.
Also, you can use VtDA as a fantasy horror campaign. Something akin to Castlevania, Elric, Midnight, or even the Witcher (in atmosphere). A similar 'real' world taken over by vampires, fighting back the barbaric werewolves of the borderlands, the imperial Mages of the south/east/west/north/whatever while also being invaded by changelings from the Myst Lands of Avalon.
And on a political level they fight against their allies the Fallen as the demons seek to take over from a political side and fighting the last remaining Hunters who are trying to 'save' the remnants of humanity.
But that's just a thought.
I picked it up. It looks so atmosphereic.

I finished reading Changeling 20. Bit confused on how chimeric clothing works. Doesn't it just dissipate after a while?

Also how fae die (removed from play) is a bit vague.

Lots of good stuff though
 
I lurk here, mostly. But occasionally I'll speak up. Especially for CoD.

I've been the forever Storyteller for nWoD/CoD for over a decade now, and I have an abiding love of the system. It has it's quirks, sure. Social Maneuvering and Investigation rules I usually skip over in favor of Roleplay, because my table really digs it.

I can see the argument in that some flavor is lost between V:tM and V:tR, and in my opinion, even more is lost between M:tA and M:tAw. However, the entirety of the CoD line feels like a gigantic toolbox that you can use to build out your world and your own flavor.

I found it frustrating, having started in V:tM, that Vampires, Werewolves, and Changelings ostensibly lived in the same world, but had very little interaction. nWoD partially rectified that, CoD gave it to me in full.

I run a game, at present, that has the players as a Coterie under the Circle of the Crone. They see to the interests of their Covenant in the city, and struggle for power and territory with other Covenants. But occasionally, I thoroughly enjoy that the Kindred in the city don't exist in a vacuum. Sometimes, that prime hunting ground just happens to also be a powerful Loci that a Ghost Wolf has claimed, and the Coterie has to put down a lone Werewolf to conquer it. Or, for example, how the boardwalk is off-limits, by order of the Prince, lest they further disturb the Incarnated Beast that claims it as it's own.

I've run two Vampire stories in this setting, the second building on the last. And a "blue-book" mortals game, that was brief. I plan on going full Hunter: The Vigil right after this game, after the Kindred world has been shaken up and turned on it's head. Hunter, in a lot of ways, really sings in CoD due to the sheer hosts of entities to barter, treaty, or hunt.

This is not to say that "crossovers" are for everyone. They're not. Fewer still who would have the player characters be a mixed group. But if you enjoy the idea of Vampires and others not existing solely on their own, it's hard to go wrong with CoD.
 
I found it frustrating, having started in V:tM, that Vampires, Werewolves, and Changelings ostensibly lived in the same world, but had very little interaction. nWoD partially rectified that, CoD gave it to me in full.
What did CoD change from NWoD that further enabled the crossover? (I'm not familiar with the details of CoD).
 
What did CoD change from NWoD that further enabled the crossover? (I'm not familiar with the details of CoD).
Speaking strictly from a compatibility standpoint, nWoD could handle crossovers well enough. CoD seemed to bake some degree of expectation of conflict between the supernatural splats in. For example, the "Clash of Wills" concept in V:tR 1e was not in W:tF 1e, that I could find. However, Clash of Wills is baked into CoD in every splat as a method of resistance between two opposing powers. It's little things like that.

This is in addition to a general tightening of the rules to make it more clear and concise what powers effect what, and what exceptions there are. (Idigams from Werewolf are immune to any form of control a Thrysus Mage with Spirit could otherwise impose on Spirits. A Mastigos Mage or Changeling who is supremely confident in their power of the realm of Astral/Dreams through their gifts are going to have a painful lesson if they stumble across a voracious Beast's Horror on the loose.)

More recently, CoD has bought into the crossover entirely with The Contagion Chronicle which encourages putting aside internecine conflict in order for small groups of cross-splat characters to cooperate. The Beast splat has a lot of controversy that I'm not going to get into. Suffice it to say that it's a fascinating idea that I couldn't let poor implementation undo. That being said, it was a splat designed around cooperating with monsters, and bringing them "into your family." With a suite of powers able to enhance those of other splats, and be enhanced by their Kinship in turn.

** Edited for remembering how to English.
 
Last edited:
I lurk here, mostly. But occasionally I'll speak up. Especially for CoD.

I've been the forever Storyteller for nWoD/CoD for over a decade now, and I have an abiding love of the system. It has it's quirks, sure. Social Maneuvering and Investigation rules I usually skip over in favor of Roleplay, because my table really digs it.

I can see the argument in that some flavor is lost between V:tM and V:tR, and in my opinion, even more is lost between M:tA and M:tAw. However, the entirety of the CoD line feels like a gigantic toolbox that you can use to build out your world and your own flavor.

I found it frustrating, having started in V:tM, that Vampires, Werewolves, and Changelings ostensibly lived in the same world, but had very little interaction. nWoD partially rectified that, CoD gave it to me in full.

I run a game, at present, that has the players as a Coterie under the Circle of the Crone. They see to the interests of their Covenant in the city, and struggle for power and territory with other Covenants. But occasionally, I thoroughly enjoy that the Kindred in the city don't exist in a vacuum. Sometimes, that prime hunting ground just happens to also be a powerful Loci that a Ghost Wolf has claimed, and the Coterie has to put down a lone Werewolf to conquer it. Or, for example, how the boardwalk is off-limits, by order of the Prince, lest they further disturb the Incarnated Beast that claims it as it's own.

I've run two Vampire stories in this setting, the second building on the last. And a "blue-book" mortals game, that was brief. I plan on going full Hunter: The Vigil right after this game, after the Kindred world has been shaken up and turned on it's head. Hunter, in a lot of ways, really sings in CoD due to the sheer hosts of entities to barter, treaty, or hunt.

This is not to say that "crossovers" are for everyone. They're not. Fewer still who would have the player characters be a mixed group. But if you enjoy the idea of Vampires and others not existing solely on their own, it's hard to go wrong with CoD.
I don't have zny ingerest in cross splat games. I don't think the setting is best served that way at all. Sure you can have ghosts in a mage game, but not wraith:the oblivions. You can have human magicians in Changeling, but it wouldn't be the Traditions. I think it dilutes the singular premise of each to work that way. But I'm not about to ban other people from running that kind of game as clearly many people do enjoy it. I never have.
 
Speaking strictly from a compatibility standpoint, nWoD could handle crossovers well enough. CoD seemed to bake some degree of expectation of conflict between the supernatural splats in. For example, the "Clash of Wills" concept in V:tR 1e was not in W:tF 1e, that I could find. However, Clash of Wills is baked into CoD in every splat as a method of resistance between two opposing powers. It's little things like that.

This is in addition to a general tightening of the rules to make it more clear and concise what powers effect what, and what exceptions there are. (Idigams from Werewolf are immune to any form of control a Thrysus Mage with Spirit could otherwise impose on Spirits. A Mastigos Mage or Changeling who is supremely confident in their power of the realm of Astral/Dreams through their gifts are going to have a painful lesson if they stumble across a voracious Beast's Horror on the loose.)

More recently, CoD has bought into the crossover entirely with The Contagion Chronicle which encourages putting aside internecine conflict in order for small groups of cross-splat characters to cooperate. The Beast splat has a lot of controversy that I'm not going to get into. Suffice it to say that it's a fascinating idea that I couldn't let poor implementation undo. That being said, it was a splat designed around cooperating with monsters, and bringing them "into your family." With a suite of powers able to enhance those of other splats, and be enhanced by their Kinship in turn.

** Edited for remembering how to English.
I considered buying Beast during the recent sale (I certainly spent like one), but decided against it for those reasons. It's more cross splat oriented than I'd find useful. Which is ok, they want a specific style of game. As for it's controversy. I'm not looking to rehas that here, but people have told me that, despite said controversies, there is a good game in there. I've been tryign to find some actual plays of it, but no luck unfortunately.

Deviant looks interesting. I'm not sure about the more specific style of play. From what I can gather it's built around conspiracies, something called the 'web of pain' (iirc). I guess this is about a shared origin: you're all misfits escaping from Evil Laboratory/Occult Lair (depending on your chroncile) and you're, ultimately, looking to defeat said conspiracy. So a more specific style of play. Assuming that's correct. It looks super interesting though, but I'm more up for Mummy the Curse 2e.
 
Deviant looks interesting. I'm not sure about the more specific style of play. From what I can gather it's built around conspiracies, something called the 'web of pain' (iirc).
I've been watching Utopia (original UK version) and there's a hint of Deviant's core idea in that... characters (some of them) genetically altered in a lab, fighting/serving a powerful/ruthless conspiracy. I wonder if it was an inspiration?
 
For Deviant, I think it would work better for a Hunter the Vigil game tbh. So while a Captain America would not have some of the more magical dread powers, having those akin to Gurps Martial Arts would work.
 
For Deviant, I think it would work better for a Hunter the Vigil game tbh. So while a Captain America would not have some of the more magical dread powers, having those akin to Gurps Martial Arts would work.
It seems like it's also just a hop and a skip from Promethean... going off the original Frankenstein story of a lab creation going after its creator. Just add conspiracy and some sort of past-life memory... ala the creature in Penny Dreadful.
 
Clearly there is some crossover with Promethean, though that game is much more different beneath the hood.

The insprirations for Deviant mention Bioshock, Dr Jekyll, Stranger Things, Dark Angel, orphan Black, and even Bladerunner - establishment agent sent to hunt down the 'deviants'. Interesting.
 
Clearly there is some crossover with Promethean, though that game is much more different beneath the hood.

The insprirations for Deviant mention Bioshock, Dr Jekyll, Stranger Things, Dark Angel, orphan Black, and even Bladerunner - establishment agent sent to hunt down the 'deviants'. Interesting.
Promethean has the Pinnochio thing going on... and the 'blight' or whatever it's called. But why shouldn't they also want to take down the folks who made them, cursed them to this life?

As source material, Stranger Things hadn't occurred to me... but yeah, some of those influences do feature the Remade as antagonists rather than PCs. I've read that the NWoD Immortals book, while aimed at PCs was also better used as a source of NPC enemies (blood bathers, body stealers... ) for Hunters.
 
From reading the blurb about deviant, my first thought was the Weapon X programme.
 
Promethean has the Pinnochio thing going on... and the 'blight' or whatever it's called. But why shouldn't they also want to take down the folks who made them, cursed them to this life?

As source material, Stranger Things hadn't occurred to me... but yeah, some of those influences do feature the Remade as antagonists rather than PCs. I've read that the NWoD Immortals book, while aimed at PCs was also better used as a source of NPC enemies (blood bathers, body stealers... ) for Hunters.
I agree, I have some ideas for a Promethean game where the characers share an origin in a lab. Something suited to Deviant. The difference is thet Prometheans are meant to be concerned with their quest to create another life
 
I love history, especially the crusades so VtDA was always my favorite. I actually just ordered VDA20 (only had 1e).
Whenever running a campaign I usually tell players, "you are going to change history so be forewarned." That way I don't have to worry about EVERY darn detail for later periods. Even starting form a fall of Western Rome point allows more room for not know too much since many didn't know much beyond locally.
Also, you can use VtDA as a fantasy horror campaign. Something akin to Castlevania, Elric, Midnight, or even the Witcher (in atmosphere). A similar 'real' world taken over by vampires, fighting back the barbaric werewolves of the borderlands, the imperial Mages of the south/east/west/north/whatever while also being invaded by changelings from the Myst Lands of Avalon.
And on a political level they fight against their allies the Fallen as the demons seek to take over from a political side and fighting the last remaining Hunters who are trying to 'save' the remnants of humanity.
But that's just a thought.

I dig V5 so fingers crossed we get a V5 Dark Ages sometime.
 
I'm uncertain about V5. I have it, but I'm beginning to wonder if investing in V20 would have been better simply because it's complete. Both editions, like any ruleset, have their issues, and I have yet to try V5. But as I'm looking at it I'm wondering if it's the kind of Vampire I want; It looks, and this is early impressions and so could be wrong, much more like they want to focus on the horror and the monster. That's fine, tbh, but the art style is very in your face because of the use of photos rather than drawn art. I'm not entirely sure the level of horror and monster that implies is what I want. Some of the changes are ok, getting the elders out the way probably helps new players establish their characters in the setting. The weakness of neonates in the political structure was always a bit too fragile imho. I like the idea of hunger dice and predator archetypes. I don't like having to purchase the setting afresh; V20 is complete. Even the corebook has all the clans. The way V5 handles portioning out clan info is a big issue for me. Buy the Camarilla book, for instance, and the only crunch are rules for 1 clan. The rest is fluff. Not sure how I feel about that, but I look forward to trying it out
 
I'm uncertain about V5. I have it, but I'm beginning to wonder if investing in V20 would have been better simply because it's complete. Both editions, like any ruleset, have their issues, and I have yet to try V5. But as I'm looking at it I'm wondering if it's the kind of Vampire I want; It looks, and this is early impressions and so could be wrong, much more like they want to focus on the horror and the monster. That's fine, tbh, but the art style is very in your face because of the use of photos rather than drawn art. I'm not entirely sure the level of horror and monster that implies is what I want. Some of the changes are ok, getting the elders out the way probably helps new players establish their characters in the setting. The weakness of neonates in the political structure was always a bit too fragile imho. I like the idea of hunger dice and predator archetypes. I don't like having to purchase the setting afresh; V20 is complete. Even the corebook has all the clans. The way V5 handles portioning out clan info is a big issue for me. Buy the Camarilla book, for instance, and the only crunch are rules for 1 clan. The rest is fluff. Not sure how I feel about that, but I look forward to trying it out
As I have explained to others before, V20 is a bit like buying a Greatest Hits Album of a particular rock artist, whereas V5 is like a remastered version of the original album.

V5 is technically ‘complete’ as a game, insofar that you don’t need any other book to play the game. It has the equivalent lore as the original 1st edition of the game included - 7 main Clans, focused on relatively new vampires, with full rules for the various conditions and situations they would be likely to encounter and lots of advice about how to create a Chronicle. It doesn’t have all the setting material that Vampire went on to accumulate over decades, but feels a lot tighter and thematically refined because of this.

The basic problem I have with V20 is that, while it does try to catalogue a lot of setting lore and rules, there is an element of bloat while there isn’t really any attempt at developing the game in any meaningful or progressive way. The rules, as they stand, include all the clunkiness that the original game had and the setting details, to me, are more about slavish fan service than creating an atmospheric setting with precise themes and mood. It was also more of an extension of the Revised edition, in that respect, and for me (again) didn’t quite have the same energy and attitude of the original game.

I’ll leave the decisions about art direction up to yourself, although I actually find the photoshop art to be evocative.
 
I dig V5 so fingers crossed we get a V5 Dark Ages sometime.
I have read V5 and also want to see V5DA. For the time being I am looking to bring in some of the other Vampire mechanics. I have V:tR2e and like # of successes off 7, flat armor DR (i think that's from there), & the blood dice from V5.
I am still waiting for V20DA so I am not sure what differences (besides a ton-o-lore) have been updated from 1e.
 
The basic problem I have with V20 is that, while it does try to catalogue a lot of setting lore and rules, there is an element of bloat while there isn’t really any attempt at developing the game in any meaningful or progressive way. The rules, as they stand, include all the clunkiness that the original game had and the setting details, to me, are more about slavish fan service than creating an atmospheric setting with precise themes and mood. It was also more of an extension of the Revised edition, in that respect, and for me (again) didn’t quite have the same energy and attitude of the original game.
I have not played V5 or fully read any of the V20 books, but I have heard that V20 allows you to become monster superheroes while V5 has a more horror aspect from Requiem. Does that sound accurate?
 
As I have explained to others before, V20 is a bit like buying a Greatest Hits Album of a particular rock artist, whereas V5 is like a remastered version of the original album.

V5 is technically ‘complete’ as a game, insofar that you don’t need any other book to play the game. It has the equivalent lore as the original 1st edition of the game included - 7 main Clans, focused on relatively new vampires, with full rules for the various conditions and situations they would be likely to encounter and lots of advice about how to create a Chronicle. It doesn’t have all the setting material that Vampire went on to accumulate over decades, but feels a lot tighter and thematically refined because of this.

The basic problem I have with V20 is that, while it does try to catalogue a lot of setting lore and rules, there is an element of bloat while there isn’t really any attempt at developing the game in any meaningful or progressive way. The rules, as they stand, include all the clunkiness that the original game had and the setting details, to me, are more about slavish fan service than creating an atmospheric setting with precise themes and mood. It was also more of an extension of the Revised edition, in that respect, and for me (again) didn’t quite have the same energy and attitude of the original game.

I’ll leave the decisions about art direction up to yourself, although I actually find the photoshop art to be evocative.
It is evocative, perhaps a bit too evocative. Hand drawn art affords a kind of distance I liked. Besides a lot of the original art (i'm thinking of Guy Davis and Josh Timbrook specifically) is great.
What's important though is how it plays. V20 is certainly clunky, V5 i have no experience of.

I think the issue with supplements is how they are done. It bugs me to see things like clans (lasombra in this case) relegated to a city book. I don't agree with that at all. I don't really need endless clans/bloodlines.

And I certainly don't need a Malkvaian Madness Network (Fishmalk FM!)
 
It seems like it's also just a hop and a skip from Promethean... going off the original Frankenstein story of a lab creation going after its creator. Just add conspiracy and some sort of past-life memory... ala the creature in Penny Dreadful.

I never thought of it that way, but you're quite right.
Clearly there is some crossover with Promethean, though that game is much more different beneath the hood.

The insprirations for Deviant mention Bioshock, Dr Jekyll, Stranger Things, Dark Angel, orphan Black, and even Bladerunner - establishment agent sent to hunt down the 'deviants'. Interesting.

I think one of the best Dark Angel homages is Savage Worlds Titan Effect. It is just amazing.
 
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