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Trippy

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The consensus (so to speak) was that a vampire qualified as inanimate (or dead) and thus was subject to the Matter Sphere and not Life. As with many MAGE discussions, the drama was not "can you do this under the rules" but "is this a good idea?"
If I ever ran a MAGE Ascension game, one of my Paradox spirits would be a British colonel who shuts down the players' spells on the grounds that they're "too silly to continue."

JG
Reminds me of this!

 

Isator Levi

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Actually, I will say one more thing concerning comparisons between Ascension and Awakening, because I've only just remembered it.

I think it may not be quite accurate to say that Awakening represented a soft away from postmodernism, because I recall at least one occasion where Malcolm Sheppard's reports on the development and Bill Bridge's intentions said differently. That it wasn't about moving away from the postmodern, but having a different perspective on it (reality objectively exists, but the observer is limited and so it encompasses innumerable approaches to it) and that the actual mages are more in on the postmodernism; they recognise their own lack of objectivity, and so construct world views in a bit more of a syncretic fashion. Hence how you get sects empowered by multiple cultural worldviews coming together.

This is also apparent in descriptions of going to the Supernal in a literal sense; a human existence just cannot engage with a truly objective reality, and is obliterated on contact with it. Even in Awakening, Mage Sight, and the actual journeys of archmasters to the Supernal World, it has to be rendered comprehensible with symbolism. Ascension might be the result of a person becoming capable of adjusting themselves to the point that they actually can recognise reality in an objective fashion. Alternatively, it's about modifying reality until your subjective worldview becomes objective, although you generally need to be an archmaster to do that (kind of raises questions about what the difference is, doesn't it?). Either way, it renders the state of your existence incomprehensible and unapproachable to everyone else; communication across those lines requires a bit of postmodern artifice.

It wasn't something apparent to me when I was first drawn to Awakening (a thing that happened after I had read a bit about Ascension and found it just didn't quite gel with me), but the more I learned about it the more tightly wound I was. The things Second Edition does with those elements deepen my sense of engagement, particularly in the sense of creating actual structures to engage with. Supernal summoning is the process of reducing an aspect of incomprehensible objectivity to understandable metaphor, and then having discourse with it.
 

Isator Levi

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As a matter of something across game lines, I've also been giving a closer look to my Werewolf the Forsaken Second Edition, and I'm thinking about how...

I'm aware of the fact that the World of Darkness's Umbra is a gigantic spirit world of innumerable facets, and it would be my understanding that most of this stuff is introduced in Mage: the Ascension to give them a variety of otherworld's to play around in while the werewolves get to keep their particular lane.

So it's always gonna be kind of funny to me that the New World/Chronicles of Darkness just goes to the mages and says "yeah, you need to play around in the werewolf spirit world". Users of the Spirit Arcanum might go "but they play so rough in there!", but hey, the Uratha were here first.

And sure, mages still get the Astral Realms as something a bit more exclusive that I think covers some of what the old wider Umbra did (although still with particular definitions), and Second Edition even made Emanation Realms into something you didn't need to be an archmaster to get a look at, but it's still not quite the same thing, I expect.

It's funny to me to imagine the Technocracy trying to explain away the Hisil.

"Iiiittt... it could be an alien?"
"It is literally a living rope that ate a bunch of smaller living ropes like it was a goddamn shark!"

(If I ever knew enough about the Technocracy to know whether or not they rationalised away animism as aliens or anything else then I've forgotten about it. I'm just amusing myself.)
 

Stumpydave

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I still liked the approach given in Mage's early days, that the Technocracy used the same magic as tradition mages but it was expressed through technology. This tech was disseminated to sleepers when the Technocracy felt they ready for it (and not before!) but it meant their agents had access to tech that was 50-150 years in advance of our own. Victorian Technocrats using mobile phones, helicopters and computers!
 

Ghost Whistler

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There seems to be an error in the text of V5. P.88, in discussing Toreador clan archetypes, ends the page: "The Toreador love a performance,
and the one who plays at being a spy knows how to pry valuable"

The next page is art. The text continues on the next page, thus: "get, often taking more time than they need to properly enjoy the game."

There seems to be some text missing, but I can't see where it is. Only fluff, but still
 

Doc Sammy

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If someone was going to run a Vampire game on the forums, would you guys prefer VTM or Requiem? No V5 or Blood & Smoke/Requiem 2E.

Asking for a friend....
 

Ghost Whistler

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If someone was going to run a Vampire game on the forums, would you guys prefer VTM or Requiem? No V5 or Blood & Smoke/Requiem 2E.

Asking for a friend....
Why would you exclude those two?

The only vamp games I own!

:O
 

Doc Sammy

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Why would you exclude those two?

The only vamp games I own!

:O

Because they both suck in my humble opinion

Especially V5 with its butchering of the setting.

(plus V20 and Requiem 1E are still easily available)
 

TristramEvans

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Because they both suck.

countvoncount.gif.0e415eacf1b0f74626c5af6a874d1103.gif
 

Séadna

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Because they both suck.

Especially V5 with its butchering of the setting.

(plus V20 and Requiem 1E are still easily available)
What if, okay, like what if you had to defuse a nuclear bomb okay. And the bomb was going to blow up Paris. But the disarming codes were the first letters on each tenth page of V5. Would you buy it to defuse the bomb or are you such a committed V5 hater you would let all those French people die?
 

Doc Sammy

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What if, okay, like what if you had to defuse a nuclear bomb okay. And the bomb was going to blow up Paris. But the disarming codes were the first letters on each tenth page of V5. Would you buy it to defuse the bomb or are you such a committed V5 hater you would let all those French people die?

I would let Paris get blown up.

There's three kinds of people I really really don't like: Goths, Punks, and the French. :grin: :clown:

Now, if it was New Jersey being threatened, I'd swallow my pride and buy V5 to stop the nuke and then promptly and publicly throw away my copy once New Jersey was saved
 

Voros

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I would let Paris get blown up.

There's three kinds of people I really really don't like: Goths, Punks, and the French. :grin: :clown:

Ever actually met a Francophone? Most I've got to know are great people. Chill, sense of humour, great to party with. And a lot of the women are smoking hot.
 

Doc Sammy

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Ever actually met a Francophone? Most I've got to know are great people. Chill, sense of humour, great to party with. And a lot of the women are smoking hot.

I've actually got no beef with the French and was just joking around.

I would however be willing to buy V5 if it meant saving New Jersey
 

TristramEvans

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What if, okay, like what if you had to defuse a nuclear bomb okay. And the bomb was going to blow up Paris. But the disarming codes were the first letters on each tenth page of V5. Would you buy it to defuse the bomb or are you such a committed V5 hater you would let all those French people die?

download.jpg
 

Stumpydave

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Do you have any thoughts on the upcoming Victorian Age stuff being crowdfunded?
Not really. I've too much on my plate to check out new stuff and I'm of an age where I don't get this newfangled crowdstarted, kickfunded malarkey. Either its in a shop and I can buy it, or it isnt.
 

Doc Sammy

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I am sincerely curious what one's distaste for Requiem Second Edition would be. Like, just straightforward interest.

Tbh, I don't like the new mechanical changes of 2E CoD in general. Feels like a case of Onyx Path trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

The setting changes suck too, even if they're optional but my biggest issue is the mechanics.
 

Trippy

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Actually, I will say one more thing concerning comparisons between Ascension and Awakening, because I've only just remembered it.

I think it may not be quite accurate to say that Awakening represented a soft away from postmodernism, because I recall at least one occasion where Malcolm Sheppard's reports on the development and Bill Bridge's intentions said differently. That it wasn't about moving away from the postmodern, but having a different perspective on it (reality objectively exists, but the observer is limited and so it encompasses innumerable approaches to it) and that the actual mages are more in on the postmodernism; they recognise their own lack of objectivity, and so construct world views in a bit more of a syncretic fashion. Hence how you get sects empowered by multiple cultural worldviews coming together.

This is also apparent in descriptions of going to the Supernal in a literal sense; a human existence just cannot engage with a truly objective reality, and is obliterated on contact with it. Even in Awakening, Mage Sight, and the actual journeys of archmasters to the Supernal World, it has to be rendered comprehensible with symbolism. Ascension might be the result of a person becoming capable of adjusting themselves to the point that they actually can recognise reality in an objective fashion. Alternatively, it's about modifying reality until your subjective worldview becomes objective, although you generally need to be an archmaster to do that (kind of raises questions about what the difference is, doesn't it?). Either way, it renders the state of your existence incomprehensible and unapproachable to everyone else; communication across those lines requires a bit of postmodern artifice.

It wasn't something apparent to me when I was first drawn to Awakening (a thing that happened after I had read a bit about Ascension and found it just didn't quite gel with me), but the more I learned about it the more tightly wound I was. The things Second Edition does with those elements deepen my sense of engagement, particularly in the sense of creating actual structures to engage with. Supernal summoning is the process of reducing an aspect of incomprehensible objectivity to understandable metaphor, and then having discourse with it.
What do you understand by the term ‘postmodern’?

For me, having any notion of an 'objective truth’ is anathema to what postmodernism is about. Postmodernism is anti-Reason - in the same, figurative sense as the broadly, collectively Postmodern ‘Traditions' opposing the Modernistic/Reason-ist ‘Technocracy’ and also in that 'everything is true’/'nothing is true’/'there is no One True Way'.

Now, Malcom Sheppard used to frequent the Mage forums a lot around the time of Mage Revised, and was a major contributor to that line. I think he has some sort of Masters, or similar qualification, in Postmodern studies of some sort or other, so it would be interesting to get this perspective.

The thing with Awakened, and I will stress that I like the line myself, was that it had a singular notion of a Supernal world and all the various factions understood it to be a thing, even if they had different perspectives on it. The antagonists weren’t like the Technocracy though, in that they were basically trying to manipulate reality to keep them in power, as opposed to the Technocracy that were fundamentally trying to dominate reality into ‘One True Way’.
 
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Isator Levi

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What do you understand by the term ‘postmodern’?
Practically concerned more with human perspective and action within reality than necessarily reality itself. Interrogate narratives that would ascribe something universal to objective reality, but not strictly that reality does exist.

The Supernal exists, but has (and requires) numerous approaches to perceiving and conceptualising it that can have equal validity. It is not a literal, physical place like the Shadow is. Ascension might pursue the idea along a different trajectory, but I think does not have a valid claim to lack any objectivity if it would appear that the Consensus cannot render reality to no longer function by consensus (never mind the Umbra).

Edit: I think it is also reasonable enough to describe something as postmodern in at least a colloquial sense when it includes magicians who knowingly employ traditional ritual implements of magic not because those things possess native power but as conceptual aids.
 
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Isator Levi

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Removal of the Fog of Ages
Well, the idea that vampire memories get a bit scrambled by the experience of lengthy Torpor and general passage of time is still there, just framed less in terms of them having a specific quality dedicated to denying them deep awareness of the past and more as needing to leave the past behind to adjust to the presence.

But what did it mean to you that its absence irks so?
 

Trippy

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Practically concerned more with human perspective and action within reality than necessarily reality itself. Interrogate narratives that would ascribe something universal to objective reality, but not strictly that reality does exist.

The Supernal exists, but has (and requires) numerous approaches to perceiving and conceptualising it that can have equal validity. It is not a literal, physical place like the Shadow is. Ascension might pursue the idea along a different trajectory, but I think does not have a valid claim to lack any objectivity if it would appear that the Consensus cannot render reality to no longer function by consensus (never mind the Umbra).

Edit: I think it is also reasonable enough to describe something as postmodern in at least a colloquial sense when it includes magicians who knowingly employ traditional ritual implements of magic not because those things possess native power but as conceptual aids.
Well, I think that is more a statement of relativism, but the nature of postmodernism is that it is hard to define.

In terms of reality no longer functioning by consensus, that is Paradox isn’t it?
 

James Gillen

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What do you understand by the term ‘postmodern’?

For me, having any notion of an 'objective truth’ is anathema to what postmodernism is about. Postmodernism is anti-Reason - in the same, figurative sense as the broadly, collectively Postmodern ‘Traditions' opposing the Modernistic/Reason-ist ‘Technocracy’ and also in that 'everything is true’/'nothing is true’/'there is no One True Way'.

Now, Malcom Sheppard used to frequent the Mage forums a lot around the time of Mage Revised, and was a major contributor to that line. I think he has some sort of Masters, or similar qualification, in Postmodern studies of some sort or other, so it would be interesting to get this perspective.
As I understand it, Sheppard was really into Foucault, which would explain much.

jg
 

Voros

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As I understand it, Sheppard was really into Foucault, which would explain much.

jg

A lot of different thinkers get lumped into the post-modernism label, I think the term has come to mean as little as the term modernism itself.

Foucault, Derrida and Deleuze for instance agree on very little politically or philosphically. To lump them together is odd, about the only thing they share is being contemporaries who wrote in French, were philosophers and, generally but not always, were on the left.

Many of the post-modernists also write so opaquely I also doubt many who read them can actually formulate what they actually believe.
 

Trippy

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A lot of different thinkers get lumped into the post-modernism label, I think the term has come to mean as little as the term modernism itself.

Foucault, Derrida and Deleuze for instance agree on very little politically or philosphically. To lump them together is odd, about the only thing they share is having written in French, being philosophers and, generally but not always, on the left.

Many of the post-modernists also write so opaquely I also doubt many who read them can actually formulate what they actually believe.
A lot of them also write in French! Doubly awkward.:clown:

The thing is, Postmodernism was all the rage as the cool kid's philosophy in the 1990s when Mage: The Ascension was originally written, in the same way Existentialism was fashionable in the 1970s. Both are less fashionable now.

I dunno whether any of this has an impact on game design, but I think there is generally a greater desire for game worlds to make more concrete sense or have less ambiguity in meaning when you shift from the Classic WoD games to the NWoD/CoD games.

This could be just me though. The main difficulty I always had with NWoD/CoD games was basically was that it was a reboot and, at the time, I wanted something completely new. I like Scion as an alternative these days, and wish they could have done something like this instead earlier on.
 
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Voros

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A lot of them also write in French! Doubly awkward.:clown:

I often wondered if some of the postmodernists actually made more sense in French and were just being translated poorly into gobbleygook.

In Foucault and Derrida's case that is often true but from their own reports Deleuze/Guattari were often purposefully writing a surrealist wordstew which makes their English interpreters look a bit foolish, if anyone can make sense of their nonsense readings that is.
 

Trippy

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I often wondered if some of the postmodernists actually made more sense in French and were just being translated poorly into gobbleygook.

In Foucault and Derrida's case that is often true but from their own reports Deleuze/Guattari were often purposefully writing a surrealist wordstew which makes their English interpreters look a bit foolish, if anyone can make sense of their nonsense readings that is.
Do they still have those online postmodern essay writing programs?
 

Doc Sammy

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Well, the idea that vampire memories get a bit scrambled by the experience of lengthy Torpor and general passage of time is still there, just framed less in terms of them having a specific quality dedicated to denying them deep awareness of the past and more as needing to leave the past behind to adjust to the presence.

But what did it mean to you that its absence irks so?

I don't know, it's just one of those things that irks me when combined with other setting changes like the reworked covenants and the bigger presence of the Strix. It feels like they're trying to do a pseudo-metaplot of sorts. Even if it's not their intent, it comes across like that to me.

Even if you do like I do and invoke Rule Zero, the extra mechanics are pointless and I don't like them so it's better for me to just stick with 1E
 

James Gillen

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I often wondered if some of the postmodernists actually made more sense in French and were just being translated poorly into gobbleygook.

In Foucault and Derrida's case that is often true but from their own reports Deleuze/Guattari were often purposefully writing a surrealist wordstew which makes their English interpreters look a bit foolish, if anyone can make sense of their nonsense readings that is.
Philosophe': The Impenetrability
 

Isator Levi

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the bigger presence of the Strix.
The controversy of the Strix is interesting to me, because I can see how the themes of the game could both attract and repel them for different people. When the emphasis is on vampires grappling with the connection to humanity, I can get how the Strix could be looked at as a distraction or intrusion on that.

For my part, I come from the perspective that sharing the night with totally inhuman vampires provides the Kindred with a contrast and a challenge.

Also, owls is cool. :smile:
It feels like they're trying to do a pseudo-metaplot of sorts. Even if it's not their intent, it comes across like that to me.
Hmm, interesting. What kinds of things in the Covenants lead to that?
the extra mechanics are pointless and I don't like them so it's better for me to just stick with 1E
I think I can understand for a lot of the base things, but I would really wonder about the Disciplines (including the Coils) and Humanity.
 

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Based on what I saw from 1st ed (I picked up the core 3, Vampire, Werewolf and Mage) and 2nd (Changeling), 1st ed was a lot more about having a core system that worked for all the games. A tidied up and more unified version of Storyteller. 2nd looks like they're trying to grab some of the FATE crowd with conditions, tilts, beats etc working as a meta-system outside of the game itself.

For example, Ogres in Changeling 1st ed get a bonus to strength and intimidation. In 2nd they get to apply the Beaten Down condition to their foes.
What I struggle with is that in 1st ed its very much about how the character is affected in that world whereas 2nd is how the player can impose their character upon the world. Mechanically its a small difference but I find the former more intuitive and the 2nd somewhat counter intuitive.
 

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Yeah, that sort of "narrativist" thing turns me off.

JG
 

Isator Levi

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2nd looks like they're trying to grab some of the FATE crowd with conditions, tilts, beats etc working as a meta-system outside of the game itself.
I don't really know enough about FATE to say anything about that comparison, but I think Conditions and Tilts are just a unified header for anything that can affect a character for good or ill. Beats in terms of what they are amount to just a different way of processing character progression, and in terms of how they're granted expand into "characters grow from adversity as well as triumph".

I've seen enough complaints at people disliking their characters being afflicted or subverted to see why there would be an idea of "encourage people to actively participate in the horror by offering positive feedback".
For example, Ogres in Changeling 1st ed get a bonus to strength and intimidation. In 2nd they get to apply the Beaten Down condition to their foes.
What I struggle with is that in 1st ed its very much about how the character is affected in that world whereas 2nd is how the player can impose their character upon the world.
I mean... the bonuses to Strength and Intimidation only matter if they're used to do things, surely? I don't think the Ogre was supposed to exist in a state of being neutrally aware that they were stronger and scarier.

I think getting to apply that Condition is supposed to be about making the Ogre milieu more focused. That it's less about ripping up fire hydrants and tossing them about and more about how you relate to other people (especially when the big thing about changelings is how alienated they are). So if a fight happens, the Ogre can go more directly to opponents being cowed into submission.

It's... well, it's Shrek being able to chase off the torches and pitchforks with graphic descriptions. I think in character it's supposed to be a thing partially emergent from intimidating presence rather than a literal psychic imposition.

It might also provide subversive approaches to an Ogre concept, such as a character who is not necessarily intimidating or up for fights, but is really good at getting them to end before anybody actually gets hurt.
 
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