Advice wanted: What is the best OSR system for RPG newbies?

[robertsconley]

Been ruminating more about this...I'm currently torn between going straight-up B/X or hacked Lamentations. Part of me says that it could be an interesting exercise to go 100% old-school by-the-book, just to see what unappreciated gems lurk therein. The other part says that a LotFP conversion would be more popular when actually releasing this, and I really like many of the Lamentations sub-systems.

My recommendation is to run a campaign with RAW and then hack for subsequent campaigns. Without the experience of actual play you are not as informed as one needs to be to do a good job in coming up with one's own take.

For example you run B/X, it works but you have a significant number of players who clearly would prefer that they could play something like a dwarven paladin. You could say that just how it work. Or you could consider in the light of the experience that the next campaign would be more enjoyable if the players were free to pick race and class.

As for using Swords and Wizardry and race and class just take the B/X (or Labyrinth Lord) Dwarf, Halfling, and Elves classes and use them directly. Use the fighter save progress for all three with each getting the racial save bonus from the S&W rules. Elves will also get +2 to spells. In respect to each other, the various classic editions of D&D and most retroclone are not unique games of intricate interlocking subsystems.

I recommend also looking at the LotP's encumbrance system and bring that into Swords & Wizardry.

 

[Edgewise]

Arbitary but when looked at this way they have a logic to them.

That's the best explanation I've seen for old-school saves. The categories themselves are a bit wonky but there is a logic to it, as you say. Thanks!

Without the experience of actual play you are not as informed as one needs to be to do a good job in coming up with one's own take.

That's absolutely true if I go with B/X, but if I opt for Lamentations-centric rules, I'm in more familiar territory.

 

[robertsconley]

That's the best explanation I've seen for old-school saves. The categories themselves are a bit wonky but there is a logic to it, as you say. Thanks!

Glad to help.

Also keep in mind they were made with the list of stuff of OD&D in mind when extended the end result may not be so neat and tidy.

For example Armor Class is a good example of this.

In OD&D it is

9 Nothing
8 Shield
7 Leather
6 Leather and Shield
5 Chain
4 Chain and Shield
3 Plate
2 Plate and Shield

When Gygax re-introduced Weapons vs AC in Greyhawk it dovetailed nicely with the catagories above.

Now comes AD&D which added Studded Leather, Scale, and Banded/Splint.

10 Nothing
9 Shield
8 Leather
7 Studded Leather
6 Scale
5 Chain
4 Banded/Splint
3 Plate

And the Weapons versus AC chart became unmoored from reality as Scale + Shield is not the same kind of armor as Chainmail along.

While I am being critical here, the point is NOT that OD&D is good later editions are bad. But rather if you want to understand why things are what they are in later edition it pays to understand why things work in OD&D. Then armed with that information you can decide which variant (or even elements) of classic D&D works best for you.

For me I wrote and summarized my take in my Majestic Fantasy Basic Rules. Others (and you) of course will have their own answer. The important thing for me is that I can answer why I do the things I do and have refined the rules through actual play in several campaign

 

[AsenRG]

Since it’s written for DCC, just use DCC.

However, if she wants to play a Mage, I wouldn’t start her on Moldvay if the end result is to play DCC.If you intend on playing this as long as she wants to, possibly turning B/X into BECMI, and maybe never get around to DCC, that’s fine.

Forget the rules dump. Tell her no more than this and let her decide.

“Magic is a powerful and dangerous force. Mages do not wield their powers lightly for if they miscast a spell, it can open their bodies and soul to the corrupting power of Magic. In times of great urgency, a Mage can attempt to throw more power into a spell for a greater effect, but risks injury or worse when doing so.“

This, if you ask me. The DCC magic system is actually likely to be more easily understandable to neophytes than the standard "fire and forget" spells, and fighting classes also have more fun.

Or just use Beyond the Wall, because the chargen is great.

 

[Mankcam]

I quite like all the gonzo trappings of DCC, but if looking for another D20 OSR option then S&W is pretty decent.

S&W is based off the earlier versions of D&D, however gets rid of the wacky old Saving Rolls, and although it has THAC0, it also provides optional Ascending AC, which I prefer.

I prefer S&W Core Rules instead of the more popular S&W Complete Rules, it has less Classes and feels simplier, a real basic old school vibe.

I also have 'The Hero's Journey' which uses S&W but also a lot of things from the D&D BECMI era (including new artwork by Larry Elmore). It's a nice little hardcover digest book that covers alot of ground.

However I prefer my D20 OSR even simpler than S&W, so the best one I have run is barely even a commercial product - Knave, by Ben Milton

Knave is a backyard job, but don't let that put you off, as it plays well at the gaming table. It is elegant in its simplicity, and having such a simple framework is much better for rifting off; it feels very open.

The whole booklet is only 4 double-sided pages, no artwork, but very streamlined D20 OSR rules. No Classes at all, you advance in the Characteristics you want to define the character.

Very versatile, and designed to be able to easily utilise any D&D NPC or Monster Stat block - whether WotC D&D or TSR D&D (provides a quick way to convert THAC0 to Ascending AC).

It's the best one that I have seen in terms of a simple D20 OSR game. It really needs to be further developed into a larger book (which would still only be a slim volume), but you can still easily run with its current bare bones.

Here's the author discussing it, and its well worth the price of a cup of coffee, which is all it costs:

 

[Stevethulhu]

I quite like all the gonzo trappings of DCC, but if looking for another D20 OSR option then S&W is pretty decent.

S&W is based off the earlier versions of D&D, however gets rid of the wacky old Saving Rolls, and has THAC0 (with optional Ascending AC).

I prefer S&W Core Rules instead of the more popular S&W Complete Rules, it has less Classes and feels simplier, a real basic old school vibe.

However I prefer my D20 OSR even simpler than S&W, so the best one I have run is barely even a commercial product - Knave, by Ben Milton

Knave is a backyard job, but don't let that put you off. It is elegant in its simplicity, and having such a simple framework is much better for rifting off, it feels very open.

The whole booklet is only 4 double-sided pages, no artwork, but very streamlined D20 OSR rules. No Classes at all, you advance in the Characteristics you want to define the character.

Very versatile, and designed to be able to easily utilise any D&D NPC or Monster Stat block - whether WotC D&D or TSR D&D (provides a quick way to convert THAC0 to Ascending AC).

It's the best one that I have seen in terms of a simple D20 OSR game. It really needs to be further developed into a larger book (which would still only be a slim volume), but you can still easily run with its current bare bones.

Here's the author discussing it, and its well worth the price of a cup of coffee, which is all it costs:

I'll have to check Knave out.

Swords and Wizardry, for me, is the way to go. Simple, easy to grok and yet a perfect platform for modding, if that is what you want to do. You can drag systems in from just about any version of TSR, D&D if you feel the need, plus there's a ton of support for it already.

It's on my bucket list of RPGs, for sure.

 

[Moonglum]

I think the unravelling of the weapon type vs. armor type concept is one of the tragedies of the arc of D+D, as it took one of the best bits of quasi-realism found in Chainmail and OD+D - and something that is actually fun for people who like gearhead stuff (which I find is most people) - and made it unplayable and then abandoned. The whole reason why there are weapons other than spears plus a light side arm is that medieval metal working figured out how to render them ineffective, sparking a brief (few hundred years) arms race, creating all kinds of crazy combinations of striking/poking/bashing and all kinds of crazy armor pieces to respond to them. If you like medieval weapons and armor - and what fantasy gamer doesn't - then you will enjoy having something about this arms race represented in the game. But how? Most games fail to capture it in a satisfying way. The weapon vs. armor matrix approach did capture it, and if you used it you realized the gear choices available to fighters gave them a 'stealth' advantage in combat that could be huge. But it was hard to use at the table, and as the tables grew they got unmoored from reality and it all kind of fell apart. Now the most popular edition (5E) has drifted so far from this idea that basically everyone has an abstract AC that falls in a narrow range, and all the weapons (and other forms of attack) are more or less equivalent, so your gear is really just an aesthetic statement rather than a tactical choice.

 

[Edgewise]

This, if you ask me. The DCC magic system is actually likely to be more easily understandable to neophytes than the standard "fire and forget" spells, and fighting classes also have more fun.

I'm leaning further and further away from DCC the more I think about this. The reason being is that I'm thinking my approach with a bunch of newbies should be to start out by rolling all the dice for them. Part of this is to streamline play, but another part of it is to focus entirely on IC action. Both reasons would disqualify DCC - it's a bit crunchy for the GM to manage everything, and OOC mechanics like Luck would interfere with my intent to go IC.

Thinking ahead, if I'm to take this approach, I want character sheets that are super easy to read and require minimal updating. For instance, I'm thinking that tables should be two-column only i.e. property + value. A three-column ability table (i.e. ability, value and modifier) will slow things down when I ask players to read values for me. I've seen new players struggle to find things on unfamiliar character sheets, so I want to minimize that if I'm rolling all the dice.

With this approach, I would ask the players what their characters' stats are as I need them, then tell them what I need to roll for something to happen, and then roll in front of them with the option for them to roll if they want. If players want to understand mechanics and roll their own dice, it's up to them.

So I'm still thinking about what system to run...I could even do something like Knave or a dumbed-down B/X. I might even start by making a character sheet that I think is suitable, and hacking the game to support it.

I think the unravelling of the weapon type vs. armor type concept is one of the tragedies of the arc of D+D, as it took one of the best bits of quasi-realism found in Chainmail and OD+D - and something that is actually fun for people who like gearhead stuff (which I find is most people) - and made it unplayable and then abandoned.

AC is nice and simple, but it's annoying if I think about it too much. The main thing that bugs my sense of verisimilitude is that armor shouldn't provide any protection against the attacks of large monsters. It's really a minor thing that I should be able to ignore.

 

[Mankcam]

I'm leaning further and further away from DCC the more I think about this. The reason being is that I'm thinking my approach with a bunch of newbies should be to start out by rolling all the dice for them. Part of this is to streamline play, but another part of it is to focus entirely on IC action. Both reasons would disqualify DCC - it's a bit crunchy for the GM to manage everything, and OOC mechanics like Luck would interfere with my intent to go IC.

Thinking ahead, if I'm to take this approach, I want character sheets that are super easy to read and require minimal updating. For instance, I'm thinking that tables should be two-column only i.e. property + value. A three-column ability table (i.e. ability, value and modifier) will slow things down when I ask players to read values for me. I've seen new players struggle to find things on unfamiliar character sheets, so I want to minimize that if I'm rolling all the dice.

With this approach, I would ask the players what their characters' stats are as I need them, then tell them what I need to roll for something to happen, and then roll in front of them with the option for them to roll if they want. If players want to understand mechanics and roll their own dice, it's up to them.

So I'm still thinking about what system to run...I could even do something like Knave or a dumbed-down B/X. I might even start by making a character sheet that I think is suitable, and hacking the game to support it.

AC is nice and simple, but it's annoying if I think about it too much. The main thing that bugs my sense of verisimilitude is that armor shouldn't provide any protection against the attacks of large monsters. It's really a minor thing that I should be able to ignore.

I've recently ran Knave for a bunch of players in their 40s and they found the simplicity refreshing. We had a real fun time, lots of narrative and player-facing moments.

I have also run it for a bunch of 13yr old newbies, and they took to it very easily, it worked so smoothly.

As a GM it is great, its so simple that you are not bogged down in number-crunch, and you also don't tend to overthink the logics of things. It will probably be my go-to 'beer & pretzels' rpg if we just want to jump straight into a game.

The current docuement of Knave is visually dry, nil artwork etc, but it's a very useful basic framework that a GM can run as-is, or use it as a chassis to tweak to their hearts content.

For the price, it's really a no-brainer to check out. I think it's perfect for what you're wanting.

 

[Edgewise]

For the price, it's really a no-brainer to check out. I think it's perfect for what you're wanting.

I've had it for a while, and I'm going to give it a hard look tonight to see if it will work.

 

[Moonglum]

DCC is my favorite game that I won't play. It is so fun to look at and read, and is so clearly a labor of love that you just have to be a fan. But the tables I enjoy so much when I'm reading the game morph into a pain my butt when I'm playing the game.

 

[robertsconley]

DCC is my favorite game that I won't play. It is so fun to look at and read, and is so clearly a labor of love that you just have to be a fan. But the tables I enjoy so much when I'm reading the game morph into a pain my butt when I'm playing the game.

You need to use The Crawler Companion You can use a laptop and webbrowser, android, or ios. If don't have any of the three, instead of buying a $50 game book, buy a $50 android tablet to run the android version. It will be shit for everything else but for this one thing it works fine. the Crawler Companion is that good.

It is a awesome bit of software but what make it brilliant is the lookup mode. Don't need to change any dice rolling at the table. Just look at the number, tap it in the software and it show what the result is. With the other feature it function as the ultimate DCC RPG rulebook appendix.

The alternative is to buy the DCC RPG PDF and make a binder of just the charts.

 

[Edgewise]

I came up with an absolute minimal set of parameters for a character sheet. Check it:

• Might (strength and melee attack bonus)
• Aim (ranged attack bonus)
• Defense (AC)
• Daring (saving throw modifier for most saves)
• Willpower (saving throw modifier against magic)
• Toughness (HP/3 - a successful hit does 1 damage, or 2 on a critical)

Most of these would be rated as modifiers normalized to +0, except Defense (which is ascending AC) and Toughness (which is like HP). Besides these stats, it's necessary to list spells (all 1st level, since PCs are 2nd level), skills (Lamentations-style) and equipment. I'd list character classes, but I wouldn't bother listing level for characters or spells, since PCs are all 2nd level pre-gens.

DCC is my favorite game that I won't play.

That's a damn shame. I've had nothing but fun running DCC.

But the tables I enjoy so much when I'm reading the game morph into a pain my butt when I'm playing the game.

DCC is my favorite game and it breaks all of my principles of parsimonious design. The time it takes to refer to tables is more than made up for the fun things that happen when you do so.

You need to use The Crawler Companion You can use a laptop and webbrowser, android, or ios.

It was kind of awkward on my phone but it really sings on a tablet.

 

[TheophilusCarter]

If IC is your thing, then the BRP family may be for you, if you're willing to get away from the D&D paradigm a bit. Have you considered OpenQuest? [Link forthcoming once DTRPG is back online ... ]

 

[Edgewise]

Have you considered OpenQuest?

No, I haven't. It's not a bad pick at all, but it might be a bit painful to convert everything from DCC. Also, the only BRP I ran was CoC about 20 years ago, and not many times.

[Link forthcoming once DTRPG is back online ... ]

Looks like they encountered some turbulence when moving to the cloud.

 

[Mankcam]

DCC is my favorite game that I won't play. It is so fun to look at and read, and is so clearly a labor of love that you just have to be a fan. But the tables I enjoy so much when I'm reading the game morph into a pain my butt when I'm playing the game.

Exactly my thoughts on DCC, so simple yet messy to play, but so fun to read

 

[Mankcam]

If IC is your thing, then the BRP family may be for you, if you're willing to get away from the D&D paradigm a bit. Have you considered OpenQuest? [Link forthcoming once DTRPG is back online ... ]

You know, if the OSR scene wasn't so D20 OSR-centric, then this would have been my suggestion as well.

In this particular situation it is probably a little too crunchy for young newbies, but it's simple enough for most players. OQ really deserves to get more attention (so does RD100 for that matter).

 

[Mankcam]

I've had it for a while, and I'm going to give it a hard look tonight to see if it will work.

Knave is really easy to hack, I start PCs off with Max HD + CON bonus for HP just so they don't get dropped in their first battle. The good thing is that Knave is so bare bones that you can tweak away to your heart's content, the document comes in Word doc form as well for you to edit where you want.

You just have your usual STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA, followed by AC and HP. Then you have Utility slots for Equip, Spells, etc. You can use the spell list of 100 spells provided, or port in spell lists from D&D or elsewhere.

That's your character sheet, it's index card stuff, very simple, and the PCs are playing within a few minutes.

Actions are roll D20 + bonus, over a DC or AC. That's about it. Levelling up is simple as well, a no brainer.

The great thing is you can just run any old D&D adventure you have, regardless of whether it is a WotC campaign or an old TSR module. If it uses THAC0 then there is a simple calculation that converts on the fly, and that's it.
So any D20 monster compedium works, which is very handy.

It's so easy to run with this, but in many ways it is very similar to the hack you are already developing yourself. I guess the main benefit of Knave is that new players can easily adapt to D&D down the track due to the familarity with stat names etc

For me as a GM I am more likely to run Knave (or my own Knave-hack) than I will any official edition of D&D, due to.its openess and simplicity.
Perfect for running with beginners, I'm not sure why D&D 5E didn't scale their Basic Rules down to something similar to this.
It's the D&D that I can run on autopilot and just goof around with.

 

[AsenRG]

I think the unravelling of the weapon type vs. armor type concept is one of the tragedies of the arc of D+D, as it took one of the best bits of quasi-realism found in Chainmail and OD+D - and something that is actually fun for people who like gearhead stuff (which I find is most people) - and made it unplayable and then abandoned. The whole reason why there are weapons other than spears plus a light side arm is that medieval metal working figured out how to render them ineffective, sparking a brief (few hundred years) arms race, creating all kinds of crazy combinations of striking/poking/bashing and all kinds of crazy armor pieces to respond to them. If you like medieval weapons and armor - and what fantasy gamer doesn't - then you will enjoy having something about this arms race represented in the game. But how? Most games fail to capture it in a satisfying way. The weapon vs. armor matrix approach did capture it, and if you used it you realized the gear choices available to fighters gave them a 'stealth' advantage in combat that could be huge. But it was hard to use at the table, and as the tables grew they got unmoored from reality and it all kind of fell apart. Now the most popular edition (5E) has drifted so far from this idea that basically everyone has an abstract AC that falls in a narrow range, and all the weapons (and other forms of attack) are more or less equivalent, so your gear is really just an aesthetic statement rather than a tactical choice.

Then let me recommend you the Spellcraft & Swordplay Fantasy Role-Playing Game! I'm sure you could find it yourself when RPGNow goes back online.
The game is Chainmail-inspired. As such, it is based on the weapons vs armour matrixes, and a d6 mechanic (mostly 2d6 to beat a target number that varies on the table). With levels, you also gain extra actions, ike in Chainmail, so ypur attack power goes up along with your HP.

I'm leaning further and further away from DCC the more I think about this. The reason being is that I'm thinking my approach with a bunch of newbies should be to start out by rolling all the dice for them. Part of this is to streamline play, but another part of it is to focus entirely on IC action. Both reasons would disqualify DCC - it's a bit crunchy for the GM to manage everything, and OOC mechanics like Luck would interfere with my intent to go IC.

In that case...may I repeat my recommendation for the Spellcraft & Swordplay Fantasy Role-Playing Game?
in addition to the above, it has a starter edition covering the first three levels. And, important for going full IC, you can execute more and more complicated actions as you go up in levels...because what would be considered "a stunt" simply costs more than one action, with appropriately higher benefits.

No, (alas) I'm not getting royalties for pitching it!

Another options I'd go for is Zenobia. But I suspect you're probably familiar with it, so no description is necessary. It's actually very easy to grasp for new players, IME!
I don't know whether it counts as OSR, though translating opponents is dirt simple: The Power/Prowess of monsters is equal to HD/2, round up (plus weapon bonuses for humanoids).

 

[robertsconley]

You know, if the OSR scene wasn't so D20 OSR-centric, then this would have been my suggestion as well.

Well most things in the D100 family of systems are in 5% increments, just saying Twentyquest may work quite nicely.

 

[Ladybird]

Glad to help.

Also keep in mind they were made with the list of stuff of OD&D in mind when extended the end result may not be so neat and tidy.

For example Armor Class is a good example of this.

I totally get this and understand how it works, but I think part of the issue is that numbers were given, and humans like to arrange numbers into lists and decide which order means "better". If they had just stuck with the words, Weapon vs Armour tables would make more sense, albeit at the expense of some level of playability (The current "target number to hit" system is fast and that's valuable in and of itself).

 

[Mankcam]

Well most things in the D100 family of systems are in 5% increments, just saying Twentyquest may work quite nicely.

But it doesn't have as good a ring to it as 'D100 & Dragons', heh heh

 

[Skywalker]

I like Hero's Journey. Its a nice complete and compact package with a wonderful look to it.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/james-spah...oleplaying-bw/hardcover/product-22642669.html

 

[Mankcam]

Excellent production value with The Hero's Journey book, and Elmore's art brings back memories of mid to late 1980s TSR.
Also gotta love the cover art, referencing the original cover art of 'The Hobbit'.

 

[spittingimage]

The current docuement of Knave is visually dry, nil artwork etc, but it's a very useful basic framework that a GM can run as-is, or use it as a chassis to tweak to their hearts content.

Do yourself a favour and google "Knave fancypants".

 

[Edgewise]

Do yourself a favour and google "Knave fancypants".

I thought you were joking, but no, it's a gorgeous re-layout.

 

[spittingimage]

I thought you were joking, but no, it's a gorgeous re-layout.

That it is. The same author has done a fancy version of the core book for B/X Essentials too, the B/X Purple Core. If I ever run B/XE, I'll be tempted to use that. Shame he hasn't done the other books.

 

[Mankcam]

Sweet - this looks really good.
I prefer the character sheet in the original version, but the layout of the actual Knave Fancypants rules is great

 

[dokel]

I came up with an absolute minimal set of parameters for a character sheet. Check it:

• Might (strength and melee attack bonus)
• Aim (ranged attack bonus)
• Defense (AC)
• Daring (saving throw modifier for most saves)
• Willpower (saving throw modifier against magic)
• Toughness (HP/3 - a successful hit does 1 damage, or 2 on a critical)

Most of these would be rated as modifiers normalized to +0, except Defense (which is ascending AC) and Toughness (which is like HP). Besides these stats, it's necessary to list spells (all 1st level, since PCs are 2nd level), skills (Lamentations-style) and equipment. I'd list character classes, but I wouldn't bother listing level for characters or spells, since PCs are all 2nd level pre-gens..

Gotta say that's all starting to look a little microlite-y to my eye. Sorry to muddy the waters further and I'm not sure that I'm actually recommending you take a look at microlite. It's just that the above gave me a slight feeling of deja vu

 

[Longfingers]

I like Hero's Journey. Its a nice complete and compact package with a wonderful look to it.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/james-spah...oleplaying-bw/hardcover/product-22642669.html

Interesting, I'm sure when I looked before Xmas the hardback was closer to £40 so I passed.

Don't think I've seen Untold Adventures (not to be confused with Untold: Adventures Await or various other similar sounding products) from the same author mentioned yet:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/248821/Untold-Adventures-Deluxe-Edition-Swords--Wizardry

Only 2 classes: Swordsman and Spellcaster from memory which you can tweak with a template.

 

[CRKrueger]

Looks like they encountered some turbulence when moving to the cloud.

They only brought Tech Knights and Code Clerics against the Cloud Giants, they need more DPS.

 

[Mankcam]

Edgewise Just as an aside, have you considered Mazes & Minotaurs?

It's not exactly D&D per se, but it plays very similar.
(It's a tongue-in-cheek poke at 'What If D&D had been Quasi-Ancient instead of Quasi-Medieval?')

It's doesn't have the same direct cross-compatibility with D&D resources that Knave has. However it's pretty darn close.

Despite such, it's a pretty good little D20 OSR game that sits in the lite end of town, and plays very simiilar to D&D
It's been around for years on the Net, but just in case you somehow were unaware of it I thought it best you take a squizz

And it's free: http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html

 

[3rik]

Interesting, I'm sure when I looked before Xmas the hardback was closer to £40 so I passed.

There's two versions:
B&W: http://www.lulu.com/shop/james-spah...oleplaying-bw/hardcover/product-22642669.html
color: http://www.lulu.com/shop/james-spah...y-roleplaying/hardcover/product-22875076.html

 

[Edgewise]

@Edgewise Just as an aside, have you considered Mazes & Minotaurs?

No, I don't think I've perused this particular one, although I've heard the name. I'll have to give it a peek, too.

 

[Ladybird]

No, I don't think I've perused this particular one, although I've heard the name. I'll have to give it a peek, too.

Link.

I’m running it at the moment, and the mechanics are a little fiddler than they first look - character gen could do with a reorganisation of the content - but in play it’s nice and fast and simple, and feels like something lost from a previous gaming era.

I put the 2012 edition through my Lulu account, because I am naughty like that, and getting printed copies of the core four books only came to about GBP10, so that’s some value.

 

[Mankcam]

No, I don't think I've perused this particular one, although I've heard the name. I'll have to give it a peek, too.

Just letting you know that in the introduction to Mazes & Minotaurs, the author writes a fake history for the game's origin, saying it is the original rpg from 1972. It's a bit quirky like that.

(It really came out only about a decade or so ago, just before retrocloning took off).

It's a thinly veiled simple build of D&D, the core stats names are changed but it plays almost the same.

Looks reasonably simple, and the pdf books are completely free.

I still think Knave may be better for newbies, as it is a tad simpler as well as using the usual core stats. This means they will have some familarity with D&D if they get invited to play D&D at a later date. It also means the DM can pull foes and challenges from any collection of D&D books.
So I am still recommending Knave.

Despite that, check M&M out of interest, as it also meets alot of the criteria you were describing.
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html

Not quite as simple as the structure of Knave however, but worth a look.

(Here's a character sheet - you can easily see that it's primarily a D20 game, but it has some BRP influences as well: http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/MMSHEET2.pdf)

 

[The Butcher]

I’ve fallen behind on the OSR ruleset treadmill. I should really look into B/X Essentials, Hero’s Journey and Knave (and Nightmares Underneath while I’m at it?).

DCC is my favorite game that I won't play. It is so fun to look at and read, and is so clearly a labor of love that you just have to be a fan. But the tables I enjoy so much when I'm reading the game morph into a pain my butt when I'm playing the game.

My beef with DCC is twofold:

I can handle the tables well enough in actual play, but they end up being a barrier to creating e.g. new spells or new patrons. Compare with the ease of doing so in core TSR rulesets and their simulacra.

I also don’t quite grok the Mighty Deeds mechanic. Everyone, not just Fighters, should have the chance to perform spectacular deeds of combat derring-do. (I am more than okay with Fighters being better at it, though.)

Ah well. I have plenty of other systems that can fill the same niches as DCC. Shame, though — such a gorgeous book, and the tables are fun.

 

[robertsconley]

I am going to go at this at a different angle.

What is the best OSR system for RPG newbies?

All of them and none of them?

Why?

Because system doesn't matter, it all depends on the referee being a good teacher and a good coach. So use whatever system that works with the way you think and operate and focus on learning to teach and coach.

I throw in coaching because in sports the athlete is expected to execute strategies and procedure basically in real time. A good coach not only explains those strategies and procedure i.e. teach, but guide the athlete through them the first few time until the athlete is able to do them. Afterward the coach will help the athlete practice to improve their skills. Much of this occurring in real time with the athlete doing whatever their particular sport requires them to do.

While not as physical, the interplay of the players describing what their characters and the referee making a ruling often by using a printed system of rules means there some overlap what you do to teach a beginning athlete and a novice to RPGs.

So hence, focus on being a good teacher and coach and as for the rules use whatever works for you.

 

[Edgewise]

I can handle the tables well enough in actual play, but they end up being a barrier to creating e.g. new spells or new patrons.

I guess, but you really don't need to make these everyday.

Everyone, not just Fighters, should have the chance to perform spectacular deeds of combat derring-do.

They can. The advantage of the Mighty Deed is that the warrior can perform a special maneuver without having to sacrifice inflicting damage or even take a penalty to hit. If a non-warrior tries to perform a disarm, let's say, then you'd do it very traditionally: attack with penalty, doing zero damage on a hit but necessitating a save by the defender to avoid being disarmed. When a warrior does it, the roll has no penalty, you hit if you do damage, and the target has to save or be disarmed if your Deed Die is three or more.

 

[Edgewise]

Because system doesn't matter, it all depends on the referee being a good teacher and a good coach.

Maybe not for you, but for me, the system makes a difference in how well I can perform those roles. I guess it depends - if you're restricting this statement entirely to OSR, and you don't include things like DCC under that umbrella, then I'd be more inclined to agree.