Anybody wanna ask me shit about Ye Olde Dayse?

David Johansen

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Personally I like variable weapon damage but I think it should have been kept to whole die types to speed up mass combat with mass rolling. Not that people had a dozen sets of dice just lying around at the time. Fixed HP per HD by size means you can just roll and eliminate casualties.
 

under_score

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I've never looked at any of the clones, and never did more than glance at B/X or Holmes or BECMI or whatever. Simply because I already had a game that did that.
While you are not the target audience for the clones, they served a very valuable function if nothing else by making older D&D playable while they were out of print (and OD&D remains out of print, pdfs being an unsatisfactory substitute for many). If you ever are curious to read any, it'd be interesting to hear your opinion on how well they achieved their goal.
Granted, if you aren't interested in reading somebody else's house ruled D&D, that idea probably just seems like a waste of time to you.
 

Gronan of Simmerya

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Question: you seem most happy and comfortable with original edition D&D, though not averse to trying out other games. What makes original D&D the most pleasurable for you? Is it something beyond the Golden Hootercups of Athena? :smile:

Also, from other RPGs you've played/are playing, has there ever been any method of doing anything you liked enough to back-port to your D&D?

Thanks!

Another reason I like OD&D is that stats suggest a class but don't require it. High prime requisites give an X P bonus and low ones give a negative xp penalty, but they do lit else. A "Captain Average" character with all stats between 9 and 12 is completely viable.
 

AsenRG

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So... I just posted that in another thread.

We played Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 last night (because that's what one of the players offered to run, and I actually prefer to play even if I'm not a fan of the rules).
Me and another "old dog" made a Fighter and a Monk and, in the typical old-school style & we cleared the "first dungeon" without getting into it (but we collected almost everything of value, I believe). In addition, we beat a small group of bandits, again without fighting them. Making PCs in DnD 3.5 is annoying enough that I prefer to save myself the risk of being bored (especially if I'm sleepy...that shit might lead to me actually snoring).

Anyway, even without that, the "old-school rules" say that risks are taken when you have no choice. And if someone you don't like can take them risks, even better!
That's exactly what we did.
We express our grattitude to the late bandits for their courage, albeit stimulated by greed! We, of course, honestly told them where to find valuables - upstairs of an abandoned rich house. We even helped them climb up to the roof where there was an open hatch (and we provided them with a makeshift climbing hook and rope). We even stayed to guard the loot they were taking out ... until they were one by one running inside, lest the rest of them cheat on the loot :shade:.

"Did we tell them the place is probably full of demons?" - my fighter, thoughtfully, looking at the clawed hand pulling back the last member of the gang.
What a legitimate question! From the recon earlier, we had reason to believe that (perhaps) it was from the top floors of this rich house that the demon invasion of the town had begun. And we were sure the demons were walking by standing on the ceilings...
"Shit, I knew we forgot to say something!" - Monk half-ork with intellect 15.
"Now we at least know that sunlight hurts demons. The information was well worth the price we paid...and they were muggers, anyway". - my character, ending the subject. The sunlight caused bubbles on the clawed hand.
And besides, the Referee had said that we would raise the level by clearing the dungeon (not Gold for XP, alas). He never said that we should personally enter!
So we got a level, too :devil:.
And then I wondered whether that would count as a good example of the Old School* style. It is what I mean when I say Old School... but I wasn't there, so I can't tell whether I'm using the term right.

*I'm not aiming to achieve a Satori of Old Schoolness. I'm just playing the way I like to, and I'm curious whether the grognards would have found our actions acceptable:grin:!
 

ffilz

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If you're not using home made chits you're not old school enough.
I get that a run of Basic D&D sets came with chits instead of dice (I think I even have some), but the Holmes Basic my friend got for his birthday in 1977 that was what launched us into D&D came with dice. I must also have already had a set of D20 since I had purchased Tractics previously.
 

Arminius

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Another reason I like OD&D is that stats suggest a class but don't require it. High prime requisites give an X P bonus and low ones give a negative xp penalty, but they do lit else. A "Captain Average" character with all stats between 9 and 12 is completely viable.
I remember that, also the ability to trade points between stats, which at the time we did purely to get the XP bonus, and without any concern about being penalized for (say) nerfing intelligence in favor of strength.

I realize that “trading points” may not have been the correct reading of the rules, which say “use” one stat for another rather than “trade”. Also, I do see some mechanical effects spelled out in the books: CON bonus to HP, DEX for missile weapons, INT on languages, and of course CHA on followers.

However it now sounds like, even before/outside of Greyhawk, DMs were making stats relevant in multiple ways besides the XP bonus and qualifying for certain classes. How was that done—or how do you do it now? Like the books say a STR 6, INT 11, WIS 13 character has no real chance to be a fighter. But the ability to “use” INT & WIS would actually result in no experience penalty for a fighter, or even a bonus. So how does that STR disqualify the character in practice?
 

Arminius

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IME chits were new school. Brown/white box list dice in the equipment you need to acquire and say nothing about using chits as randomizers.

ETA: actual 10-sided dice *are* new school.
 

Quill

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Yes, and no.

Phil played in my D&D game for a year or so before disappearing for about six weeks and coming back with his first draft manuscript of EPT.
When he unleashed EPT on you, did you like it, or wished you could go back to good old D&D?

(Note: not trying to generate dirt between the two of you, just curious about your introduction to EPT!)

Thanks!
 

Quill

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Well, I've started looking through the OD&D PDFs, and I have to say this is a game which is certainly scaled back from later editions! I think they deserve a pure play experience before I go fiddling with too much. I'll have to see what I can slot in with our game group. And remind them to hire a dozen henchmen!

Gronan, do you use things from the later OD&D supplements, like the Thief class?
 

Arminius

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Ok, I have some more dumb questions, just because it’s better to know for sure than to assume.

— Did PCs always start at first level?
— Did first level PCs manage to get NPC helpers?
 

Gronan of Simmerya

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When he unleashed EPT on you, did you like it, or wished you could go back to good old D&D?

(Note: not trying to generate dirt between the two of you, just curious about your introduction to EPT!)

Thanks!
That's a very, very, very odd question.

Everybody had their own campaign. At that point in the University of Minnesota gaming club alone there were 5 D&D campaigns going, each with its own referee, own world, and own house rules. EPT was just Phil's version. The whole "go back to good old D&D" is an utter non sequitor.
 

AsenRG

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Well, it's certainly amusing.
That was kinda the point! I actually play games so I could enjoy them...:thumbsup:
The question was prompted by me wondering whether I should tell the (even) young(er)'uns that my style of play is "old school" :tongue:.
 

David Johansen

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When I was old school we had to drink our tea from a cracked cup.

Cracked cup you say? We had to drink ours from a rolled up newspaper.
 

CRKrueger

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Did you, Gary, Dave and Phil ever play D&D at the same table?
 

cranebump

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We had fire. It was everywhere. We had to dress in fire shirts and pants, then walk through firewalls to get to school. Uphill. Both ways. And it never rained, so the fire just got hotter. We lived on the sun, damnit. The SUN!
 

AsenRG

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We had fire. It was everywhere. We had to dress in fire shirts and pants, then walk through firewalls to get to school. Uphill. Both ways. And it never rained, so the fire just got hotter. We lived on the sun, damnit. The SUN!
Was everything brighter, too :grin:?
 

cranebump

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Nah it was probably the old kind. Dark fire.
Yes it was. It was dark fire. Not like fire from the sun, but like the fire from your ass after the ghost pepper. Dark, hateful, leaking fire...that we drank with lemon. And not good lemon, but the bad kind o' lemon. Like a car that turned out to be bad. That stuff. We ate gears. Gears and bread...yup...
 

Arminius

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I would have killed for a rusty razor blade. Back then all we could do is let our beards grow and then bugs and rodents would start nesting in them. Or we had to pull them out hair by hair.
 

CRKrueger

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Yes it was. It was dark fire. Not like fire from the sun, but like the fire from your ass after the ghost pepper. Dark, hateful, leaking fire...that we drank with lemon. And not good lemon, but the bad kind o' lemon. Like a car that turned out to be bad. That stuff. We ate gears. Gears and bread...yup...
You had Ghost Peppers? We had black pepper and bell peppers, green bell peppers, none of this muti-colored stuff.
 

cranebump

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You had Ghost Peppers? We had black pepper and bell peppers, green bell peppers, none of this muti-colored stuff.
Hehe, heh...spot on response. I can see my late grandfather now spouting that one.:-)
 

Gronan of Simmerya

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Okay, I'm putting this here as a marker. I'm going to go through the previous posts to see if I've missed any, especially ones that need more than a sentence or two.
 
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Gronan of Simmerya

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My brother and I had the ones from the American Revolution, with the British in red plastic and the Americans in blue plastic.
Those were a blast. Haven't thought about them in 35 years. They also sold Civil War, Trojan War, Daniel Boone, and Roman sets. Maybe others I don't know about as well.

Yes. Wargames were common in the 60s. Milton Bradley also had several, including STRATEGO, DOGFIGHT, and BROADSIDE, that were advertised on TV.
 

Gronan of Simmerya

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About those three little booklets. When the people I hung out with, New Haven area, started playing, the rules as written (to the extent that we could figure out what they were) got left behind very quickly by all but one dungeon master. I played in four different campaigns, including the rules as written one, and they were all fun.
Now, you played with the people who created the rules as written. How much did they deviate from them? Also, did you know people who played from outside your area. Were we an exception or was rather massive house-ruling the usual thing?

Well, the actual rules are sparse; character generation, hit charts, saving throw charts, suggested monsters, suggested treasures. We used the material in the book because why invent our own hit chart, this one works?

Also, both in Lake Geneva and Minneapolis, I played with people who were also wargamers. D&D wasn't the only thing we were doing, so it wasn't the exclusive focus of our attention. 2-3 D&D games, a couple other RPGs, and several wargame campaigns were all going on simultaneously, as well as one-shot wargames.
 

Willie the Duck

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Yes, different damage for different weapons, which I now regret, and the Giant Slug, which I do not.
Wasn't the Gelatinous Cube also you-inspired, although it was only supposed to be cubic moving down a square corridor? Or am I conflating stories and storytellers?
 

RunningLaser

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Well, the actual rules are sparse; character generation, hit charts, saving throw charts, suggested monsters, suggested treasures. We used the material in the book because why invent our own hit chart, this one works?

Also, both in Lake Geneva and Minneapolis, I played with people who were also wargamers. D&D wasn't the only thing we were doing, so it wasn't the exclusive focus of our attention. 2-3 D&D games, a couple other RPGs, and several wargame campaigns were all going on simultaneously, as well as one-shot wargames.
I was taught rpg's from friends who were close enough to my age- 9, 10 maybe 11- back in the early 80s, none of who were war-gamers. At least not that I was aware of. Unfortunately, unless something was put into the book that would have been tactically advantageous for us, we learned that it gave no advantage. We did get that having a sword +1 was better than a regular sword, but things like shield walls, front line, second line and such- no. That's in no way a swipe at the game and how you came up with it. Just the experience I had. Though the little kid in me still believes that the most tactical weapon would be Talon's Triple Bladed Sword- I love that thing.

Reading a lot of what you write, and what others have written, it has made me look at what came before with eyes more open and a great way to play along with other ways as well. I'm a dipshit, so not all of it sticks and I don't get all of it, but hey- a good dipshit knows his limits:smile:. So I thank you for that.
 

Dr. Mindermast

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Some of the posts about how D&D was "just another war game" at the start, and the assumption that most people playing it were also war gamers, has got me curious about something else - was there a discrete point at which you guys realized you had created something bigger than just a little variant on your existing hobby?
 
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