Anybody wanna ask me shit about Ye Olde Dayse?

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When I quit playing D&D in 1986, one of my biggest complaints about with the system was its overly simple, abstract combat. When I returned to playing old school D&D in 2008, one of the things I loved most about it was how the simple, abstract combat kept the game moving.
 
If you already got a reaction roll, then you're not just making to hit rolls.

if that's the case, then I have absolutely no idea what you mean when you say that all you can do in D&D is make to hit rolls.
 
OK, Gronan, can you give us a lesson :smile:? I think that would be rather useful (and in line with the purpose of the thread, actually), so please treat is a question!

I mean, for a start, tell us what you do in these two variants of the same situation - that's not to-hit rolls... it might help us next time, who knows?

"You encounter a raiding party of orcs, but they don't look like your typical orc, what with all of them having chain mail of actual good quality. You have three fighting men of 2nd level and a 1st level Cleric, who is leading two religiously-motivated henchmen".
The henchmen, fighters and cleric are armed as you wish, but have no more than lamelar armour (but aren't injured yet :wink:). The orcs have 2 swords, 2 axes, and 2 HD for the two swordsgoblinoids and 3 HD for the two "crazy axe murderers" (which is what they are, they go berserk if a fight starts - but also defer to the leadership of the other two when it comes to the question when a fight would start).
The room is 20X20 feet. There's a chest in the middle of it that the orcs have been sitting around, draperies on the walls, and . Neither side has surprise, nor did anyone spot the other side in advance (the sword-bearing orcs were playing cards around the chest, in an uncharacteristically silent manner, but they're orcs...the weapons are near their hands).

What do you do if the roll is reaction roll indicates "negative, don't attack...yet"?

What do you do if the reaction roll is "they attack"?

If it matters, those are orc chieftains and their guards, who had gathered to discuss nuptial arrangements between the tribes. Not able to decide which side should have the upper hand, they agreed to settle it as their shamans (not present) instructed them: with a game of cards.

I know, those ain't your typical orcs (they might well be any humans/humanoids, though I was thinking of the "orcs" from the Red Tide setting), but then it's not about playing a typical "just charge them and hope we win" scenario, right :shade:?

Well, I don't know what their reaction roll is. All I know is what do they do?

How do I know how many HD the orcs have? There is no way I can have that information.

Why are we down in the dungeon? For loot or some other reason?

And why the hell don't we have at least one magic user with us? A group of three 2nd level fighters should be able to scrape up enough for to hire a 1st level magic user with a SLEEP spell, at least.
 
I'd love to read some examples from you.

Well, there's always the basics; second rank with long spears, heavy fighters form a line to protect the casters while the light fighters/thieves move into a flank position. You should ALWAYS attempt to flank the enemy force. This is a BIG problem with later editions; flanking is vastly underpowered. Flanking wins battles.
 
This is a BIG problem with later editions; flanking is vastly underpowered. Flanking wins battles.

I think this is due to the fact that, by then, most fights were supposed to look like "superhero spectacle fights" from movies. When you have 4 supers vs 6 villains with everyone doing his own thing, concepts like "formation" cease to matter.
 
This is a BIG problem with later editions; flanking is vastly underpowered. Flanking wins battles.

What's the game effect in OD&D? I did a quick glance and couldn't find the modifiers. I know in AD&D you lose shield and dexterity from your AC for flank attacks and a rear attack adds +2 to hit bonus.
 
Well, I don't know what their reaction roll is. All I know is what do they do?
Scenario 1: One of the sewordsmen looks at you, and makes a gesture towards the others, which you interpret as "hold it for now".
"Who in the Circle of Pain are you, interrupting our game? Turn back from whence you came and leave now, and we won't give chase. Otherwise, your lives would be forfeit!"

Scenario 2: "Aaaargh! Weak, insolent elfkin*!"
Charge-slash-chop-stab from the Berserkers and one of the warriors. The other warrior throws a throwing axe (or throwing stick, or javelin) over the heads of the melee, aiming not at your fighters, but at the torchbearer (because orcs see in the dark better than you, and they know it).

*An orkish invective aimed at humans/hobbits/half-elves, always pronounced in Common to make sure it's understood. It means roughly "those weaklings who try to be like the elves, but suck at it".

How do I know how many HD the orcs have? There is no way I can have that information.
That was for you as a Referee, because you are a Referee :smile:. You wouldn't be running all the PCs, either...but in this case, that's what I'm asking you to do, for the sake of the example, so you'd have to act partially as Referee, here.

Instead of HDs, you should read "they have the eyes, and controlled movements, of people who have killed many a times and might be tempted to do it again...and for some of them, it probably wouldn't require much temptation".

Why are we down in the dungeon? For loot or some other reason?
Let's keep it simple: all of you are interested in loot.
On top of this, the cleric has heard about a fountain that bestows unholy magical power, deep down in the dungeon, and wants to have it shut off, destroyed or purified. One of the fighting men had also heard about it, but believes the part about "paying with your soul for the power" is made up and might be tempted to take a bath.

And why the hell don't we have at least one magic user with us? A group of three 2nd level fighters should be able to scrape up enough for to hire a 1st level magic user with a SLEEP spell, at least.
Are you telling me that only magic makes things different from "exchanging to-hit rolls" or what :shade:?

As to the reasons:
Because the GM believed that only PCs are crazy enough to join an expedition to the dungeon, and thus wouldn't join a delve (the NPCs believe you wouldn't make it this time, because your luck is bound to run out)? That was actual advice in some DMGs, I believe.

Because the GM has a setting where wizards are incredibly scarce, unlike fighters and clerics, thus making the price of their services beyond the current grasp of the group?

Have your pick. Me, I've played with both of those guys:grin:!
 
I think this is due to the fact that, by then, most fights were supposed to look like "superhero spectacle fights" from movies. When you have 4 supers vs 6 villains with everyone doing his own thing, concepts like "formation" cease to matter.

5e has pretty extensive optional flanking rules in the DMG if one wants them. To me if you're going to bring flanking into combat you'd be better off with a more tactical game like TFT, although I think TFT could also easily be played without those rules, same as D&D is most often played without them.
 
5e has pretty extensive optional flanking rules in the DMG if one wants them. To me if you're going to bring flanking into combat you'd be better off with a more tactical game like TFT, although I think TFT could also easily be played without those rules, same as D&D is most often played without them.
Wait, D&D is played without flanking rules now?
 
Gronan, were you around for any of Gary's other classic modules, like Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Against the Drow or Queen of the Demonweb Pits?
 
Similar to the flanking issue, are there any other rules that you remember that were regularly used but weren't listed in the rules for OD&D?
 
Scenario 1: One of the sewordsmen looks at you, and makes a gesture towards the others, which you interpret as "hold it for now".
"Who in the Circle of Pain are you, interrupting our game? Turn back from whence you came and leave now, and we won't give chase. Otherwise, your lives would be forfeit!"

Scenario 2: "Aaaargh! Weak, insolent elfkin*!"
Charge-slash-chop-stab from the Berserkers and one of the warriors. The other warrior throws a throwing axe (or throwing stick, or javelin) over the heads of the melee, aiming not at your fighters, but at the torchbearer (because orcs see in the dark better than you, and they know it).

*An orkish invective aimed at humans/hobbits/half-elves, always pronounced in Common to make sure it's understood. It means roughly "those weaklings who try to be like the elves, but suck at it".


That was for you as a Referee, because you are a Referee :smile:. You wouldn't be running all the PCs, either...but in this case, that's what I'm asking you to do, for the sake of the example, so you'd have to act partially as Referee, here.

Instead of HDs, you should read "they have the eyes, and controlled movements, of people who have killed many a times and might be tempted to do it again...and for some of them, it probably wouldn't require much temptation".


Let's keep it simple: all of you are interested in loot.
On top of this, the cleric has heard about a fountain that bestows unholy magical power, deep down in the dungeon, and wants to have it shut off, destroyed or purified. One of the fighting men had also heard about it, but believes the part about "paying with your soul for the power" is made up and might be tempted to take a bath.


Are you telling me that only magic makes things different from "exchanging to-hit rolls" or what :shade:?

As to the reasons:
Because the GM believed that only PCs are crazy enough to join an expedition to the dungeon, and thus wouldn't join a delve (the NPCs believe you wouldn't make it this time, because your luck is bound to run out)? That was actual advice in some DMGs, I believe.

Because the GM has a setting where wizards are incredibly scarce, unlike fighters and clerics, thus making the price of their services beyond the current grasp of the group?

Have your pick. Me, I've played with both of those guys:grin:!


I am now totally confused. I have no idea what you're even asking me.
 
Gronan, were you around for any of Gary's other classic modules, like Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, Against the Drow or Queen of the Demonweb Pits?

Well, as I've said before, Gary never announced a name of an adventure; he didn't say "tonight you are going to the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief." I don't remember being in any of those you mentioned.
 
That's part of what I like about The Fantasy Trip: you're a wizard, or not a wizard, and then you have various talents.

T&T does this as well. You are a Warrior (use any weapon, double protection from armor and shields), Wizard (only use 2d weapon but you have MAGIC obvs), or a Rogue (any weapon, no armor bonus, can use magic but only at full casting cost and no Guild will teach you new spells because you are a filthy casual). But, skills weren't added until 7th (I think) Edition.

Edit: older[/] versions of T&T did this, they added (unnecessary IMO) classes later on...
 
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T&T does this as well. You are a Warrior (use any weapon, double protection from armor and shields), Wizard (only use 2d weapon but you have MAGIC obvs), or a Rogue (any weapon, no armor bonus, can use magic but only at full casting cost and no Guild will teach you new spells because you are a filthy casual). But, skills weren't added until 7th (I think) Edition.

Edit: older[/] versions of T&T did this, they added (unnecessary IMO) classes later on...

TFT and T&T share a lot of genes: Iconic Liz Danforth artwork; funny, creative, quirky 'voice'; distinctive yet wide-open default setting; lots of solo adventures; simple characters; an easy-come-easy-go approach to PC's and advancement.
 
I think we intuitively figured it out from CHAINMAIL; a Hero went from 4 hits to 4 HD, so weapons went from doing a hit to a die. I think.
 
I think we intuitively figured it out from CHAINMAIL; a Hero went from 4 hits to 4 HD, so weapons went from doing a hit to a die. I think.

So, if I wanted to emulate this with another system, the HD would be analogous to #/hits the target can take, right? Assuming variable weapon damage, how much damage, on average, constitutes a “hit?” I’m thinking 4.5, based on the way current 5E monsters go. Unless I have that wrong. Going from memory here, because smoking cigars and drinking bourbon limits my personal bandwidth.:-)
 
So, if I wanted to emulate this with another system, the HD would be analogous to #/hits the target can take, right? Assuming variable weapon damage, how much damage, on average, constitutes a “hit?” I’m thinking 4.5, based on the way current 5E monsters go. Unless I have that wrong. Going from memory here, because smoking cigars and drinking bourbon limits my personal bandwidth.:-)

What brand?

OD&D was back in the d6 days so a die was 3.5 points.
 
Alright, so damage started out as a flat d6. This makes sense. If hit die varied by class and a d4 wizard wasn't an immediate death sentence, but it's much more dangerous.

At what point did weapons begin taking on different damage values, and how did you and others react to this?
 
Alright, so damage started out as a flat d6. This makes sense. If hit die varied by class and a d4 wizard wasn't an immediate death sentence, but it's much more dangerous.

At what point did weapons begin taking on different damage values, and how did you and others react to this?
Hit dice also started out as d6, with Magic Users and Clerics getting 1d6 at level 1 and Fighters getting 1d6+1. Variable hit dice appeared in Greyhawk along with variable damage.
 
Hit dice also started out as d6, with Magic Users and Clerics getting 1d6 at level 1 and Fighters getting 1d6+1. Variable hit dice appeared in Greyhawk along with variable damage.
And, as was already mentioned earlier in this thread, Gronan of Simmerya Gronan of Simmerya is actually the one who originally suggested the adding variable damage by weapon type (which is presumably why he gets a "Thanks to" credit in that book) - a suggestion he later came to regret.
 
Here's a question that's been rattling around in my brain for a while: Was there a method for determining known spells for newly rolled magic-users, or did mediums start with, say, all the eight 1st-level spells in the LBBs? What about when you referee the game these days, do you prefer to give new magic-users all 1st-level spells, let the player pick some number of them, or randomly roll for spells known?
 
Well, as I've said before, Gary never announced a name of an adventure; he didn't say "tonight you are going to the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief." I don't remember being in any of those you mentioned.
I'd expect you explored locations that appeared in modules but that they weren't canned or packaged as modules.
 
The exploration of most of the areas that later appeared in Gary’s modules (like the Caves of Chaos, Temple of Elemental Evil, Giant strongholds, Vault of the Drow, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, etc.) took place c. 1975-78, which was after Gronan had left for college. The modules that specifically mention Gronan as a playtester are Isle of the Ape and Dungeonland/Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, which makes sense since both of those were drawn from levels of the Greyhawk Castle dungeons that were in play c. 1973-74.
 
Some comments to expand on your answers.
Well, there's always the basics; second rank with long spears,

This works because most referee allow only so many people to melee in a 10 foot wide corridor or anywhere else where terrain make this an issue. Having long spears in the back allows people behind the front line to attack. It not explicitly stated in the rules because they presume the reader know enough about medieval combat to know that this is a thing that will work.

heavy fighters form a line to protect the casters while the light fighters/thieves move into a flank position.
Again because the rules presume knowledge of medieval combat and thus knowing that ordinarily you can't move the front rank unless it one of several specific circumstance like charging on horseback. Even then those circumstance may not work due to specifics defenses.

You should ALWAYS attempt to flank the enemy force.
Flanking works in a similar way to having people fighting in the 2nd rank with long spears. It allows attacking force to have more people fighting in melee than they otherwise could. In addition for the portion of the line that is flanking the enemy has far less attack than they do when the two front line are engaged. It quite possible to have a series of 5 on 1 fights that just roll up and crush the enemy line. Also with flanking you don't need a specific class of weapon to make it work for you.

Although I do have a question for Gronan in that beyond having positional advantage and thus more people attacking are there any other effects that are applied in your OD&D campaigns?

For example in GURPS being flank is not only bad because of the above but also because you are also reduced just one of the three possible defense rolls you allow to take, dodge. Even with dodge you can't take advantage of the all the defense option because your movement is limited.

Which mirrors my experience in the SCA and medieval renactments.

This is a BIG problem with later editions; flanking is vastly underpowered. Flanking wins battles.
What would help folks is learning about your experience in handling this without miniatures.

With miniatures I found there are problem with system have rules that allow players to run around their opponents in a single round even when staying within melee range or make it too easy to pass through an opponent's square.
 
None of this stuff is actually part of original edition D&D rules books, so effectively what we are talking about here is the introduction of your own house rules to fill in important details. Groanin' hasn't said what those rules are (or were) at his table — we just know he thinks it is obvious we should be be using them. So it is difficult to follow exactly what he means.
 
None of this stuff is actually part of original edition D&D rules books, so effectively what we are talking about here is the introduction of your own house rules to fill in important details. Groanin' hasn't said what those rules are (or were) at his table — we just know he thinks it is obvious we should be be using them. So it is difficult to follow exactly what he means.
It's not rules, it's small unit tactics. The problem is, the hobby has drifted by several decades from it's wargaming roots. So things that seem obvious to some aren't to others. Tactics being a big part of this.
 
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