Are female D&D players comfier around male D&D players these days?

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I’m sure if you put a picture of a man knitting on a skein of yarn you’d see a big influx of men into that hobby.
All I've waited for to get into weaving like my mom is pictures showing men doing it and a way to strap an unmuffled motor to a giant loom.
 
They started making a more concerted effort to show women since 3.x as I recall. It just wasn't the extreme it is now. Back then it was a fully clothed female thief covered in belt buckles because he everyone is apparently alongside 3rd party covers of gals in g-strings because sex still sold.

The rule accidentally left out of 3rd edition when it went to print was that Each "Feat" in the game was represented by a belt, so the more Feats you had, the more belts you wore.
 
What does that entail?
We had a guild in an old MMO that failed, and after it failed a core group of us were still together playing other things. Not only did they have vetting to join the guild because they didn't want conflicting personalities, you also had ranks in the guild that you climbed - normal gaming stuff. It's supposed to be fun, so we weren't really vetting for views or beliefs- just the ability to follow the rules, keep your politics out of the game, and get along with people. Simple stuff.

As the game faded, we became friends of a sort- some in RL. This went on for 15+ years (the game died in 2007 maybe? We've been friends up until a couple of years ago) and it was a small close-knit group. We started noticing one guy posting in the meme section stuff that pushed the line- but we're friends. so it wasn't a big deal. Then one time he posted something about LGBQTIA stuff that crossed a line with someone that is in that group, and she pushed back. He played the victim- we changed the bylaws that we're just friends- it's not a guild, so just don't be a dick in response to that. Mostly because she was one of the leaders and didn't want that dynamic there if it happened again.

Everything seemed fine. We played in various other games including TTRPGs and though he skirted lines at times, we just blew it off. But he started talking about the rabbit holes he was going down, and it became hard to ignore. He posted some bullshit thing about not knowing where the lines were and posting hypotheticals- and I was like dude, we don't care about outside world stuff in here- this is for fun and between friends, and if you don't know where the line is, that means you probably just shouldn't be posting the stuff. He had a hissy fit over it and blocked several people and left.

It was sad, in all honesty.
 
The rule accidentally left out of 3rd edition when it went to print was that Each "Feat" in the game was represented by a belt, so the more Feats you had, the more belts you wore.
Damn it all makes so much more sense. And here I am wandering around with one belt like a newb.
 
We had a guild in an old MMO that failed, and after it failed a core group of us were still together playing other things. Not only did they have vetting to join the guild because they didn't want conflicting personalities, you also had ranks in the guild that you climbed - normal gaming stuff. It's supposed to be fun, so we weren't really vetting for views or beliefs- just the ability to follow the rules, keep your politics out of the game, and get along with people. Simple stuff.

As the game faded, we became friends of a sort- some in RL. This went on for 15+ years (the game died in 2007 maybe? We've been friends up until a couple of years ago) and it was a small close-knit group. We started noticing one guy posting in the meme section stuff that pushed the line- but we're friends. so it wasn't a big deal. Then one time he posted something about LGBQTIA stuff that crossed a line with someone that is in that group, and she pushed back. He played the victim- we changed the bylaws that we're just friends- it's not a guild, so just don't be a dick in response to that. Mostly because she was one of the leaders and didn't want that dynamic there if it happened again.

Everything seemed fine. We played in various other games including TTRPGs and though he skirted lines at times, we just blew it off. But he started talking about the rabbit holes he was going down, and it became hard to ignore. He posted some bullshit thing about not knowing where the lines were and posting hypotheticals- and I was like dude, we don't care about outside world stuff in here- this is for fun and between friends, and if you don't know where the line is, that means you probably just shouldn't be posting the stuff. He had a hissy fit over it and blocked several people and left.

It was sad, in all honesty.

Some people have to push. Sometimes that's a good trait. Sometimes it's bad.

I
 

In one year, from 2019-2020, the female player percentage shifted from 30% to 38%

The average player age is 28, born in 1992.

From https://www.dndresearch.com/
 
As a social outcast, it surprised me how many fellow geeks were bitter and mean-spirited instead of compassionate.

Why?

Becoming vengeful and paranoid seems like a very primate reaction to feeling like you've been shunted aside by the mainstream. Like it or not, the mainstream is where our instincts want us to be unless we've made a very conscious philosophical choice. I'm not saying it's good, just that plenty of media, anecdotes and research tends to confirm that bitterness is an easy path for a human to follow under the circumstances.

Consider the following:

 
Also, I've slept with women I've met via gaming, and don't see a reason why you wouldn't...people who hang together and find each other attractive might well get to this point. See also: Ravenswing Ravenswing (who also has theadvantage of being good at cooking, IIRC:grin:).

Well, heck, it's a great deal easier to get a partner to stick around if the partner has a notion you're a good cook!
I definitely get this. I got into the habit of vetting groups for jerks. I’ve had so many unpleasant experiences with asshole gamers. As a social outcast, it surprised me how many fellow geeks were bitter and mean-spirited instead of compassionate.

It didn't so much surprise me as dismay me how ready geek/nerd subcultures were to bully and ostracize their fellows. Took me a while to figure it out: we're just as tribal and cruel as any other human, just as ready to group others into Us vs Them, and that part of the attraction of the subculture is the possibility of a social pyramid with us on top and our own likes and dislikes to be the commanding ethos of the group.
 
Becoming vengeful and paranoid seems like a very primate reaction to feeling like you've been shunted aside by the mainstream. Like it or not, the mainstream is where our instincts want us to be unless we've made a very conscious philosophical choice. I'm not saying it's good, just that plenty of media, anecdotes and research tends to confirm that bitterness is an easy path for a human to follow under the circumstances.
Obviously, but that was one of the reasons that I became so wary: my pain was nurtured in a positive way (in the sense that social ostracizing made me more empathetic and aware than before, swearing never to treat others that way). Many didn't cope with that in the same way, letting it fester and become a vindictiveness or callousness. I've met DMs who were power-hungry bullies despite being so obviously socially impaired and likely a target of the same behavior before.

Then again, I'm learning that humanity is far more mentally and emotionally diverse than I ever imagined. There a lots of people who don't have an inner voice, nor the capability to "imagine" things (cue that famous example on social media of people unable to believe that others can "imagine" the image of an applie in their mind's eye).

Staggering.
 
It didn't so much surprise me as dismay me how ready geek/nerd subcultures were to bully and ostracize their fellows. Took me a while to figure it out: we're just as tribal and cruel as any other human, just as ready to group others into Us vs Them, and that part of the attraction of the subculture is the possibility of a social pyramid with us on top and our own likes and dislikes to be the commanding ethos of the group.


I don't think those people are real Geeks. They are some form of corrupted Geeks...

"Gollums"
 
Took me a while to figure it out: we're just as tribal and cruel as any other human, just as ready to group others into Us vs Them, and that part of the attraction of the subculture is the possibility of a social pyramid with us on top and our own likes and dislikes to be the commanding ethos of the group.
I first realized that when I was hanging out at coffeehouse poetry readings. Lots of bad behavior there by people who suddenly found themselves having a taste of respect/fame. Not all or even most, but enough to drive out some of the others.
 
Then again, I'm learning that humanity is far more mentally and emotionally diverse than I ever imagined. There a lots of people who don't have an inner voice, nor the capability to "imagine" things (cue that famous example on social media of people unable to believe that others can "imagine" the image of an applie in their mind's eye).

Staggering.
I was literally shocked when I found out that other people don’t have an inner monologue. I have always had conversations with myself in my mind with a voice so it’s hard for me to imagine how it is for them.
 

In one year, from 2019-2020, the female player percentage shifted from 30% to 38%

The average player age is 28, born in 1992.

From https://www.dndresearch.com/
Nice! But again... see Lying with Statistics. The sample set there, while impressive, is no where near high enough to take these as anything but a small slice.

Specifically see this one - https://www.notion.so/Top-10-TTRPGs-3024264f7c824680983b4612ccad7a99

Taking a casual look at some of the others, I think that number at the top is the most telling- not sure why they didn't put the number of respondents in the other charts. So 1000 respondents? Not a great sample set.
 
I was literally shocked when I found out that other people don’t have an inner monologue. I have always had conversations with myself in my mind with a voice so it’s hard for me to imagine how it is for them.
I occasionally have them out loud, which can get embarrassing. But definitely internal. And sometimes I quickly come to a shift or a conclusion which can be jarring to people on the outside.
 
Nice! But again... see Lying with Statistics. The sample set there, while impressive, is no where near high enough to take these as anything but a small slice.

Specifically see this one - https://www.notion.so/Top-10-TTRPGs-3024264f7c824680983b4612ccad7a99

Taking a casual look at some of the others, I think that number at the top is the most telling- not sure why they didn't put the number of respondents in the other charts. So 1000 respondents? Not a great sample set.


Not only that, but they admit in one note that there samples the first year were way smaller - meaning it isn't even the same sample demographic traced over two years.
 
I was literally shocked when I found out that other people don’t have an inner monologue. I have always had conversations with myself in my mind with a voice so it’s hard for me to imagine how it is for them.
Lonelier.
Up untill they take acting classes...:thumbsup:

Well, heck, it's a great deal easier to get a partner to stick around if the partner has a notion you're a good cook!
No argument there.
...I guess?
Wait, what did she do after she met you? :wink:
Other kinds of roleplaying:tongue:?
I mean, she was playing free-form before that. I taught her to use my dice and systems:shade:!
I definitely get this. I got into the habit of vetting groups for jerks. I’ve had so many unpleasant experiences with asshole gamers. As a social outcast, it surprised me how many fellow geeks were bitter and mean-spirited instead of compassionate.
Yeah, though it's not just about just assholes. I mean, your first potential female player has to go to an apartment and hang out for hours with 3-5 unknown guys, who are telling her that everyone is there to have fun...
Which accidentally might also describe a gangbang:devil:.
So you should better make sure she feels comfortable around you in a public location before inviting her to a private one. Hence, meeting to play in a public venue is preferable.
And yes, our first female player (whom I invited) had her doubts as well. So we met for a drink first and I guess she found me safe enough to be around (I also made sure to discuss the perils of playing with strangers).
It was far easier with the second female player: I just went to the vetting meeting accompanied by the first female player.

And as a result, almost two decades later, it just so happened that my recent groups were mostly female - with me often being the sole male (when the other male player couldn't make it).
 
Nice! But again... see Lying with Statistics. The sample set there, while impressive, is no where near high enough to take these as anything but a small slice.

Specifically see this one - https://www.notion.so/Top-10-TTRPGs-3024264f7c824680983b4612ccad7a99

Taking a casual look at some of the others, I think that number at the top is the most telling- not sure why they didn't put the number of respondents in the other charts. So 1000 respondents? Not a great sample set.

Not only that, but they admit in one note that there samples the first year were way smaller - meaning it isn't even the same sample demographic traced over two years.

It's an absolutely terrible sample size, hopelessly mis-representative of the contemporary TTRPG landscape.

Something tells me though, that as terrible as it must surely be it just might be a smidgen better than a bunch of old blokes droning on in forum posts about their sexual encounters with women in their gaming group and their workplace during the 1970s...
 
Obviously, but that was one of the reasons that I became so wary: my pain was nurtured in a positive way (in the sense that social ostracizing made me more empathetic and aware than before, swearing never to treat others that way). Many didn't cope with that in the same way, letting it fester and become a vindictiveness or callousness. I've met DMs who were power-hungry bullies despite being so obviously socially impaired and likely a target of the same behavior before.

Then again, I'm learning that humanity is far more mentally and emotionally diverse than I ever imagined. There a lots of people who don't have an inner voice, nor the capability to "imagine" things (cue that famous example on social media of people unable to believe that others can "imagine" the image of an applie in their mind's eye).

Staggering.

Seriously, I've never been someone with a low amount of empathy, but things I've gone through could have made me a very cold, very emotionally dead person. Fortunately, I managed to go the other way, and seek to help others avoid feeling completely alone when they're suffering from certain things. (Depression primarily.) It's why I talk about it so much when I can because so many people suffer from it and our society as a whole thinks it's alright to ignore it because it's all in someone's head. Of course, this has been turned back on me a time or two--but I endeavor on to try and talk about it so people know "It's not just you, I know exactly what's it like."

As to the geek social stuff, what is the saying? Five people trapped in an elevator can't choose a leader, but they can all choose someone to hate? Something like that? I've noticed it is pretty common for a group lacking an outsider to hate, to cannibalize their own so to speak.
 
I definitely discovered how incompatible I am with stranger gamers the first time I went to a gaming convention. Sat at a bunch of tables. The good individuals were rare and shined brightly, but the jerks were far more numerous and sucked the light out of the air like Black Holes.

I vowed never to go to a con again. So much for all of their policies on "safe spaces" and "free from harassment". Lots of people didn't get the memo, it seems. Nor did the organizers with their rule of "if you abandon a game midway for any reason, you will be banned from the con". I thought that this was a "safe" space?
 
Nice! But again... see Lying with Statistics. The sample set there, while impressive, is no where near high enough to take these as anything but a small slice.

Specifically see this one - https://www.notion.so/Top-10-TTRPGs-3024264f7c824680983b4612ccad7a99

Taking a casual look at some of the others, I think that number at the top is the most telling- not sure why they didn't put the number of respondents in the other charts. So 1000 respondents? Not a great sample set.
I'd actually say that the number of respondents is the least of the issues. Above 1000 people you hit diminishing returns if you increase it, as far as the margin of error is concerned.

What's much more of an issue is the fact the respondents seem to be self selecting which is an absolute red flag for this kind of work. (It's a marketing survey tool, not academic). Then you add to that the fact that rewards are being given out for pariticipation and those rewards are specific enough to appeal to a certain demographic of RPGers. They also seem to be using "D&D" and "RPGs" interchangably in some of the polls.

So yeah, I agree with you that these polls have serious issues, but not for the same reason.

And to be fair, we don't know what kind of students do this. There's a good chance it's an undergrad project.
 
I was literally shocked when I found out that other people don’t have an inner monologue. I have always had conversations with myself in my mind with a voice so it’s hard for me to imagine how it is for them.


So its not just me and JD

 
Ehh, I think that's a correlation without causation assertion. RPGs became socially acceptable, online scripted game videos rose to unprecedented popularity, references to D&D permeate pop culture media, board games rose to new heights of popularity in direct opposition to online socializing, and the pandemic stuck people indoors desperate for one on one interaction for over a year...

But we're expected to believe Wizards throwing a picture of a girl on the cover of D&D is responsible for an influx of women into the hobby?

That's a reductive take. Having positive representation of women on the covers of their books is a marker that WotC are taking inclusion and diversity seriously. It's an example showing that the way WotC present and market D&D is broader and intentionally considers women players. Making more people feel welcome is how Dungeons & Dragons has grown to the point it has today. When people go check out the game after watching their favorite voice actor play on Critical Role, they are not greeted with boob armor bullshit, female strength limits or Frank Frazetta Dragon Magazine covers anymore. They get a game and product that has men, women and non-binary people in mind now and it shows in the game design, art direction and marketing. D&D is socially acceptable now because the product itself has become socially acceptable. That's the causation. No amount of exposure matters if product is repulsive to the people getting exposed to it.

Anecdotally, I know a couple women who have told me felt like D&D was for them when they saw artwork like this.
5E_starter_set_image.jpg

They got to see a bad-ass version of someone who looks like them doing cool shit and that got them hooked.
 
I definitely discovered how incompatible I am with stranger gamers the first time I went to a gaming convention. Sat at a bunch of tables. The good individuals were rare and shined brightly, but the jerks were far more numerous and sucked the light out of the air like Black Holes.

I vowed never to go to a con again. So much for all of their policies on "safe spaces" and "free from harassment". Lots of people didn't get the memo, it seems. Nor did the organizers with their rule of "if you abandon a game midway for any reason, you will be banned from the con". I thought that this was a "safe" space?
"No Drama" doesn't mean no abuse, it just means no complaining about abuse. Just like Lifetime Movie Network, abuse isn't dramatic unless the victim screams.
 
they are not greeted with boob armor bullshit, female strength limits or Frank Frazetta Dragon Magazine covers anymore.
To be fair that’s been out of style for mainstream RPGs for the last decade, at least. For D&D specifically, I don’t remember ANY cheesecake during 3e, although I can’t speak for shitty 3rd party lines.

I think the last straw for many people were those awkward Exalted covers. Shudder.
 
"No Drama" doesn't mean no abuse, it just means no complaining about abuse. Just like Lifetime Movie Network, abuse isn't dramatic unless the victim screams.
Actually the con had a clear “no harassment” policy but it was mostly focused on ethnicity and gender. If you were being bothered for reasons outside of your identity, you were expected to suck it up, I guess.
 
Then again, I'm learning that humanity is far more mentally and emotionally diverse than I ever imagined. There a lots of people who don't have an inner voice, nor the capability to "imagine" things (cue that famous example on social media of people unable to believe that others can "imagine" the image of an applie in their mind's eye).
I don't have a mind's eye, in the sense I don't visualise things at all.

If you say dragon, whereas you might picture the image of a dragon in your mind I instead get a group of words (flying, lizard, fire breathing etc). that signify "dragon" to me. It's not so much a lack of imagination as a different way of processing data; I can describe something absolutely fine I just don't 'see' it. In everyday conversation I have to slow down my thought processes, otherwise I have a tendency to make logical leaps that only make sense to other people after I've explained them.
 
I don't have a mind's eye, in the sense I don't visualise things at all.

If you say dragon, whereas you might picture the image of a dragon in your mind I instead get a group of words (flying, lizard, fire breathing etc). that signify "dragon" to me. It's not so much a lack of imagination as a different way of processing data; I can describe something absolutely fine I just don't 'see' it. In everyday conversation I have to slow down my thought processes, otherwise I have a tendency to make logical leaps that only make sense to other people after I've explained them.

Like Necrozius, I was pretty shocked when I discovered some folks' minds work this way, in my early adolescence.
 
To be fair that’s been out of style for mainstream RPGs for the last decade, at least.
Which can speak to a point that making a thing that manages to be appealing to a wider cross-section of people can be something that emerges from organic trends rather than being something deliberate, whatever motives one aspires to such deliberation.
 
I can't parse what you are trying to say here. Not being tolerant of abuse is not "drama".
Can't parse it because you're trying to put the cart before the horse; you have to put the parse-sleigh together in the right order or your wages will be garnished.

Having an even-handed but swift and final zero-tolerance abuse policy as the policy isn't "drama"; it's good security or moral justice or whatever you want to call it, but if you take reports seriously and nip that shit in the bud, your audience barely even notices that you need to enforce your rules. I don't have to tell you this.

Making "no drama" the policy, or at least the primary policy, means ignoring abuse until it gets big enough you have to start silencing victims. I don't spend a lot of time in communities dedicated to children's fandoms, so I haven't seen it nearly as much as I've seen what "no politics" leads to, but I've seen some of the horror stories where convention staff don't want the negative attention, the civil liability, or the hurt feelings-- especially when a short eye gets on-staff-- and they make excuses for it and kick it under the rug until it gets too big.
 
Can't parse it because you're trying to put the cart before the horse; you have to put the parse-sleigh together in the right order or your wages will be garnished.

Having an even-handed but swift and final zero-tolerance abuse policy as the policy isn't "drama"; it's good security or moral justice or whatever you want to call it, but if you take reports seriously and nip that shit in the bud, your audience barely even notices that you need to enforce your rules. I don't have to tell you this.

Making "no drama" the policy, or at least the primary policy, means ignoring abuse until it gets big enough you have to start silencing victims. I don't spend a lot of time in communities dedicated to children's fandoms, so I haven't seen it nearly as much as I've seen what "no politics" leads to, but I've seen some of the horror stories where convention staff don't want the negative attention, the civil liability, or the hurt feelings-- especially when a short eye gets on-staff-- and they make excuses for it and kick it under the rug until it gets too big.
I'm always skeptical of the term "zero-tolerance" as its often cover for arbitrary decisions, which makes it ironically ripe for abuse. Zero tolerance and even-handed are antonyms.
 
I don't have a mind's eye, in the sense I don't visualise things at all.

If you say dragon, whereas you might picture the image of a dragon in your mind I instead get a group of words (flying, lizard, fire breathing etc). that signify "dragon" to me. It's not so much a lack of imagination as a different way of processing data; I can describe something absolutely fine I just don't 'see' it. In everyday conversation I have to slow down my thought processes, otherwise I have a tendency to make logical leaps that only make sense to other people after I've explained them.
Likewise. I have to put extra effort into trying to actually visualize a thing beyond quickly grasping the entirety of its concept.

This inability to readily visualize things has a name:
Aphantasia
 
And this is now going down the rabbit hole I expected, most of which is very 'current year' so I'm out. PEACE!
 
Obviously, but that was one of the reasons that I became so wary: my pain was nurtured in a positive way (in the sense that social ostracizing made me more empathetic and aware than before, swearing never to treat others that way). Many didn't cope with that in the same way, letting it fester and become a vindictiveness or callousness. I've met DMs who were power-hungry bullies despite being so obviously socially impaired and likely a target of the same behavior before.

Then again, I'm learning that humanity is far more mentally and emotionally diverse than I ever imagined. There a lots of people who don't have an inner voice, nor the capability to "imagine" things (cue that famous example on social media of people unable to believe that others can "imagine" the image of an applie in their mind's eye).

Staggering.
Yeah that’s kind of scary. Someone without an Inner Voice and Mind’s Eye seems almost like they’re missing a key evolutionary piece, or maybe we are.
 
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