Toadmaster
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Well strictly speaking as portrayed in the books the idea was more that orcs are pre-disposed to feud among themselves in the absence of any other target (Frodo once commented after watching two orcs get into an actual fight that, had he and Sam been apparent, they would have immediately dropped their grievance to go after the hobbits) or somebody on behalf of some stronger authority to crack the whip. In the case with Merry and Grishnakh, that was really more about trying to appeal to some greed and ambition to create an opportunity; even apart from the fact that Merry didn't even have the Ring to give him (and wouldn't bargain it away for any reason, not merely for the moral stance but because willingly giving up the One Ring is almost impossible), I'm pretty sure he never would have thought he could actually come to an agreement to give it away in exchange for freedom.One thing that the this thread has reminded me of is that Tolkien’s Orcs, though a thoroughly nasty bunch, are not simply sword-fodder who always want to fight the heroes. They have their own factions; you can cut deals with them (or try, as Merry and Pippin did). And some like Shagrat and Gorbag don’t seem all that keen on being Sauron’s servants.
Welp, if they won't screw to save their species elves deserve to die out.Long story short, elves are portrayed as pretty much entirely regarding sex as a procreative act and don't have much of a drive anyway, so after they have between one and three children they pretty much lose interest entirely (although there also seems to be a certain spiritual quality that can mean having too many children is intensely changing).
They can’t die out— they’re immortal. Even if you kill one to death it just re-spawns in the Halls of Mandos, whence it could if it wanted (though only one ever has) simply come back. Tolkien’s elves aren’t dying out, they’re emigrating to America.Welp, if they won't screw to save their species elves deserve to die out.
That's exactly what I thought when I first read about it, yeah.That description sounds like the biggest giveaway of Tolkien's Catholicism yet...
Jk, as a former Catholic I know we fuck like bunnies. All that guilt leads to a lot of horniness in my experience. But I'm pretty sure that description of the sex life of elves does reflect at least the ideals of Tolkien as an aging, conservative Catholic.
I like this idea quite a bit, though I might even say that we don’t necessarily get smarter as we get older either. Maybe orcs just have a gene that gets them bigger and stronger as they get older.I've been tossing an idea around in my head where Goblins, Orcs, Bugbears, Ogres, etc. are all the same species at different life stages. Like the older they get the bigger they get. But their brains don't get bigger so they have to spend more brain power on dealing with the bigger nervous system, which explains why Ogres are dumb as rocks while Goblins can make cannons and such.
I also like 40k's Orks literally being fungus that got out of control.
Well strictly speaking as portrayed in the books the idea was more that orcs are pre-disposed to feud among themselves in the absence of any other target (Frodo once commented after watching two orcs get into an actual fight that, had he and Sam been apparent, they would have immediately dropped their grievance to go after the hobbits) or somebody on behalf of some stronger authority to crack the whip. In the case with Merry and Grishnakh, that was really more about trying to appeal to some greed and ambition to create an opportunity; even apart from the fact that Merry didn't even have the Ring to give him (and wouldn't bargain it away for any reason, not merely for the moral stance but because willingly giving up the One Ring is almost impossible), I'm pretty sure he never would have thought he could actually come to an agreement to give it away in exchange for freedom.
Otherwise, we don't really get instances of people coming to some kind of beneficial understanding with orcs, nor does the presentation really create an impression that orcs are open to such a thing....
One thing I'll say is that while I think it can be okay to have antagonists in the form of a kind of minion creature, I think it's a worthwhile challenge to oneself to make them at least half as interesting as the Jem'hadar from Deep Space Nine are.
Also that I honestly think the whole "we want totally irredeemable monsters to be able to fight and kill opponents in large numbers without remorse" to be kind of dumb, because it seems to me that most works of fiction and people observing them don't really have any problems with that thing being done to human people. I think most subscribe to some form of morality that makes it okay enough for people to employ lethal force against opponents who pose a deliberate danger to themselves or others. Hell, I think even when somebody does come at something like, say, A Song of Ice and Fire with a perspective of "oh the poor Lannister levies", that seems to exist in a space of distant critical analysis rather than the immediate emotional experience of the work.
And really, I think either a comprehensive critical faculty or sophisticated emotional take on something like orcs would also still end up feeling that there's something tragic about their deaths in warfare, compounded rather than detracted by their inability to be anything else.
Which wraps around to the point about the Jem'hadar, in which our Starfleet characters are very effectively conveyed as being able to recognise some of the dimensions to their opposing mass-produced monsters and make attempts where possible to try and get through to them (even when largely knowing it's futile), but do not hesitate in actually fighting them.
Agree, nobody seems to have issues mowing down hordes of Nazis even when recognizing that some are not truly evil, just followers taking the path of least resistance.
If it makes you feel any better, early D&D was as likely to have Berserkers in the dungeon as orcs.
I suspect the morality of violence in roleplaying games is probably too hot and political a topic for this forum.
The reason why we're using orcs isn't to feel better about our fictional PCs because they aren't murdering "real" people. The reason is tradition. All the moral justifications are irrational garbage that people come up with because they can't accept or don't want to accept the real reason: tradition.Meh, just so long as people stay away from judging others or trying to tie fantasies to real life behaviour, it seems at least an eminently viable topic regarding the hobby. The problem might just be in that term "morality" - if we talk about the morality of player characters, or the morality of a fantasy world, that's vastly diferent than discusing the morality of the players themselves.
"I didn't touch it. Just looking at it made me feel uneasy...It looked like a Lord of the Rings orc."
So, a woman found a creature washed up on a beach at Gabr al-Bint in the Sinai in June and described the event as follows:
This is the picture of the creature, which is actually a Moray eel, apparently:
View attachment 47403
Bear Traps are reserved for goblins.AH a boy then, the girls have a bear trap.
I think Tolkien was the kind of thoughtful person and bit of a perfectionist in drafting his stories to a point that makes me wonder if he ever had a thought of including references to orcs being taken captive and what might be done with them afterwards. I suppose if the intention was them to be a thoroughly evil race, it was easy enough to give himself the out that orcs don't ever surrender, although as far as a bit of critical consistency goes such a thing would be a bit amusing when we seem to get enough examples of orcs who aren't exactly brave; who you'd really expect to beg for their lives if backed into a corner, even if they are supposed to be indoctrinated to the idea that no enemy would take them alive. Still, I do wonder if he ever had an instance of processing the idea of "having my protagonists kill surrendering or captive orcs is a bit too dark no matter how I portray them".
Ahh yes, I remember having actually read that passage quoted in the past."The Wise in the Elder Days taught always the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.
... * [footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need)."
--J.R.R. Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring, p. 419, hardcover Houghton Mifflin edition. This is an excerpt from what appears to be the last essay Tolkien wrote considering the origin and nature of Orcs; the entire text is worth reading for anyone interested in the question.
There is an interesting bit in the new Thor movie that makes me think we have a very narrow view of this. Like why do there have to be males and females of any race? Procreation, right? It’s sort of limited to think we have two genders just because that’s the way many organisms do it in earth.
Interestingly, my first thought as well.That is really cool and really creepy. I should read this "Hater" series. It sounds like David Moody is basing these creatures off the behavior of online mobs.
Like the (non)fucking pandas?Welp, if they won't screw to save their species elves deserve to die out.