Ars Magica Survival Kit

[SJB]

I was long into gaming hibernation by the time Ars Magica appeared but it’s piqued my interest enough recently to consult the archives.

The Pub has hosted two extended discussions, one in 2017 and one in 2021.

The Hive Mind concluded:

1. Second Edition is the best version.
2. Ars Magica would not be improved by a 2d20 port.

However, there are no previews on DriveThru and those on Warehouse 23 are unrevealing.

My question is: which combination of books would one acquire to see Ars Magic 2E at its best?

 

[lategamer]

Publishers web site has a free version as far as I recall

Ars Magica 4th Edition

www.atlas-games.com

 

[lategamer]

I'd even say the 2e enthusiasts are rose-tinted

 

[Silverlion]

I was long into gaming hibernation by the time Ars Magica appeared but it’s piqued my interest enough recently to consult the archives.

The Pub has hosted two extended discussions, one in 2017 and one in 2021.

The Hive Mind concluded:

1. Second Edition is the best version.
2. Ars Magica would not be improved by a 2d20 port.

However, there are no previews on DriveThru and those on Warehouse 23 are unrevealing.

My question is: which combination of books would one acquire to see Ars Magic 2E at its best?

2E was decent, and tightly done, but I've found 4E pretty darn usable as well. 2d20 wouldn't make anyone happy. I'd be fine if they just used one dice-rolling method and d10's. In general, what are you wanting to do with it? I played one long campaign of 2E, and ran a short one of 2E and 3E each. I've not had the chance to actually use 4E but a good read shows me its solid bones for the most part.

 

[lategamer]

2E was decent, and tightly done, but I've found 4E pretty darn usable as well. 2d20 wouldn't make anyone happy. I'd be fine if they just used one dice-rolling method and d10's. In general, what are you wanting to do with it? I played one long campaign of 2E, and ran a short one of 2E and 3E each. I've not had the chance to actually use 4E but a good read shows me its solid bones for the most part.

4e for me is like they took 3e and deleted all the grimdark.

That said, when I ran my longest and biggest campaign, it was mostly 3e with 2e supplements. The system hasn't changed that much.

And yeah a 2d20 version would make no-one happy*

*but I can see how it would work

 

[Baulderstone]

Aside from the core book, the essential 2E books are Order of Hermes, Covenants and Faeries. That's really all you need.

 

[thebigh]

Both campaigns I was in were 4th ed and IMO it's fine. I don't think it needs any more grimdark- there's enough in there already. I really like character advancement being tied to things you choose to study. IMO this is better than level-based systems where you get skills and abilities for free after hitting an arbitrary checkpoint, or other point-buy systems where you can buy, say, extra strength after an adventure where you did nothing but cast spells. "Spend your points on something you actually did this week, or want to spend your downtime studying" is now enshrined as one of my permanent GURPS house rules.

 

[Skarg]

What kind/flavor of "grimdark" was omitted?

(Hmm . . . searching my hard drive, I see I downloaded the free AM 4e PDF in 2018, and in 2020 . . . and I still haven't read it. Guess I should get around to doing that. I have been thinking of re-studying the AM magick and learning/study/etc systems lately. Last time I looked at it, I think it was about 1997 or so.)

 

[Vargold]

I think 2nd and 3rd editions are both fine (and the World of Darkness stuff in 3rd is so tangential that it can be excised with no repercussions or even much thought). I can't deal with 4th and 5th editions because that's when the rules for studying from and writing books cross over from fun minigame to obsessive simulacrum of medieval manuscript culture, which, as a practicing medievalist in my day job, is an utter turn-off.

Also, Baulderstone is 100% correct about the essential 2E books.

 

[Skarg]

I notice as I glance through the 4e PDF and the 5e web site, a thick amount of reference to "the story" and collaborative storytelling. Is that less thick before 4e? Did the authors and/or editors change for 4e/5e?

 

[lategamer]

What kind/flavor of "grimdark" was omitted?

In 3e, White Wolf owned it and went heavy onto Infernal and Tremere vampirism. They cut back on that in 4e which was probably a good thing.

It's amusing what Vargold says about the books studying. We kinda didn't do it much so didn't delve deep on that so wouldn't have seen it. As a practicing mediaevalist, I can see how it would be a perceptual pop-out. We glossed it.

 

[Jacob Rodgers]

2E and 4E are, for the most part, almost indistinguishable for play at the table from my recollections. Mistridge (premade covenant with lots of interesting characters to use as NPCs or PCs if desired) really helped make Ars Magica sing for me, but it is part of 3rd Edition. But any WW ties are well-hidden and it's quite usable.

Wizard's Grimoire is from around the same time and I remember being similarly impressed to a lesser degree. But there's a 4E version as well that is revised, so get that instead if you want to have even more magic options on the table.

 

[Baulderstone]

2E and 4E are, for the most part, almost indistinguishable for play at the table from my recollections. Mistridge (premade covenant with lots of interesting characters to use as NPCs or PCs if desired) really helped make Ars Magica sing for me, but it is part of 3rd Edition. But any WW ties are well-hidden and it's quite usable.

Mistridge was in 2nd edition (and maybe even 1st edition, if I recall). It is a good example of how to set up a covenant and the area around it as a sandbox.

I'm too rusty on the details to get into a 2E vs. 4E debate, but I'll definitely recommend against 3E. It's kind of a mess. Aside from going overboard with demons, it adds True Reason in attempt to tie the game in with Mage: the Ascension. People with True Reason don't believe in magic, so it doesn't work around them. It's kind if ruinous to the setting, as the Order of Hermes is a kind of force of reason in a world where magic is real. It also throws in a lot of additional magic systems, undermining the beauty of having one core magic system that lets players do pretty much anything. I remember the The Wizard's Grimoire, mentioned up thread, being pretty good though.

 

[lategamer]

Mistridge was in 2nd edition (and maybe even 1st edition, if I recall). It is a good example of how to set up a covenant and the area around it as a sandbox.

We kinda stole the details of Mistridge and installed them into the Broken Covenant of Calebais once we "cleared" it. Calebais is as close to a dungeon crawl as you'll find but we loved the design of the covenant building itself.

 

[malc]

Some of the adventures for 2nd (aka revised) edition are worth a look too. Particularly Festival of the Damned (which is only available in PDF as the 4th edition version, packaged up with "The Ghoul of St Lazare", but I don't think there would too many problems to using that with revised). The Four Seasons Tetrology (Midsummer Night's Dream, The Tempest and A Winter's Tale) are also worth a look as I recall (but it's been a long time).

 

[robertsconley]

The other thing to remember is what interests you the most about Ars Magica? The setting or the magic system? For me, the appeal is about the whole culture of magic with the Order of Hermes as the focus more than the system. From my personal experience porting it over to my Majestic Wilderlands campaign using my own take as the Order of Thoth, I found all that is required is a system with a sufficiently detailed magic system. For me, that was GURPS and GURPS Magic.

Then years later I was able to port my Order of Thoth over to classic D&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry where it worked out fine with a handful of tweaks to the core D&D magic system. (Viz, rituals, a handful of new spells, the Shield of Magic, Arts of magic, etc.)

For those interested I attached my Order of the Thoth as an example of how adaptable the idea is.

 

[Lofgeornost]

Mistridge was in 2nd edition (and maybe even 1st edition, if I recall). It is a good example of how to set up a covenant and the area around it as a sandbox.

I'm too rusty on the details to get into a 2E vs. 4E debate, but I'll definitely recommend against 3E. It's kind of a mess. Aside from going overboard with demons, it adds True Reason in attempt to tie the game in with Mage: the Ascension. People with True Reason don't believe in magic, so it doesn't work around them. It's kind if ruinous to the setting, as the Order of Hermes is a kind of force of reason in a world where magic is real.

This, so much this.

 

[Vargold]

The thing about True Reason, though, is that it is so utterly ignorable. My group came into ArM with 3rd edition, and the primary GM was like, "nope, not interested," and that's the last we ever heard of it. Zero mechanical repercussions, zero campaign repercussions.

 

[Skarg]

The other thing to remember is what interests you the most about Ars Magica? The setting or the magic system? For me, the appeal is about the whole culture of magic with the Order of Hermes as the focus more than the system. From my personal experience porting it over to my Majestic Wilderlands campaign using my own take as the Order of Thoth, I found all that is required is a system with a sufficiently detailed magic system. For me, that was GURPS and GURPS Magic.

Then years later I was able to port my Order of Thoth over to classic D&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry where it worked out fine with a handful of tweaks to the core D&D magic system. (Viz, rituals, a handful of new spells, the Shield of Magic, Arts of magic, etc.)

For those interested I attached my Order of the Thoth as an example of how adaptable the idea is.

Yeah, personally, I'm have my usual angle of looking for ideas I might want to loot for my own homebrew campaigns and systems, in particular ideas in the magic system, study, researching, training, character development, and perhaps perspective that might help me enroll other players in ideas for play with multiple characters, rather than being stuck in "I have only one PC, and I get upset if that PC ever gets killed/wounded or doesn't get as much 'spotlight' as I want".

 

[SJB]

If anyone wants the free 4th edition it can be downloaded from Warehouse 23; Atlas Games insist that one signs up to a mailing list before downloading.

4th edition was published in 2003 and was a bit of shock layout wise after my last purchase from that era: Pulp Noir. It seems very World of Darkness to someone who knows nearly nothing about World of Darkness.

Its biggest plus point is in presenting a coherent historical fantasy set in thirteenth-century Europe that does not immediately default to Warhammer.

 

[Silverlion]

I forgot to mention, I also like 5E though its a shame that we didn't get a full-color book with slick pages since that's common now (and when it was published.)