Barbarians of the Ruined Earth by Mike Evans of DIY RPG Prod.

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Voros

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CRKrueger

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Black Hack <sigh>. It might be interesting to look at to see how you even get so much Gonzo detail on such a generic, minimalist frame.
 

NinjaWeasel

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I like The Black Hack and I love Post-Apocalypse settings. In fact, I have The Rad Hack, The Wasted Hack and The Wasteland Hack already. This looks tempting too. Mostly because the book looks pretty! But, oof, that's quite a price for a relatively small book... I think I'm going to get it but I may have to wait a while before I do.
 

Brock Savage

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Black Hack <sigh>. It might be interesting to look at to see how you even get so much Gonzo detail on such a generic, minimalist frame.
Hey what's wrong with Black Hack? I just bought 2nd edition last week and skimmed through it; it seemed pretty cool but I didn't deep dive into the nuts and bolts, I am legitimately interested in your opinion on this.
 

Voros

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Black Hack doesn't strike me as any lighter than B/X.
 

NinjaWeasel

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Hey what's wrong with Black Hack?

I don't want to speak for CRKrueger, who may possibly not like either edition of the game, but the most common complaint I've seen about Black Hack 2e is the change to the Armour rules. It's been a while since I looked at them but they were a little unintuitive to me. Instead of Damage Reduction it gave you pools of D6s and was more complex.

There's been some minor complaints about additional complexity, compared to 1e, in a few other areas. I can't remember the specifics. I don't think most of them are a big deal anyway. It's still a very light game. Personally, I have 1e and 2e (and a whole bunch of third party stuff) and just use it as a big gaming toolbox.

I'm not sure which edition Barbarians of the Ruined Earth is based on. I'm assuming it's 2e. Anyone know?
 

Nobby-W

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Okay I am ready to buy, what is difference between premium color and standard color?
Different processes supported by DTRPG's printer. Premium colour is on better quality coated paper that will render colour with better fidelity, good for colour photos and suchlike. For the cartoony illustrations above, standard colour will render them fine. Premium colour is quite a bit more expensive to print than standard colour, which isn't all that much dearer than black and white. Depending on his pricing, he might not be making all that much more off premium colour.

Theres a costing functon on DTRPG's site - you can see what the printing costs are and work out the margins for yourself if you really want to.
 

Voros

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I don't want to speak for CRKrueger, who may possibly not like either edition of the game, but the most common complaint I've seen about Black Hack 2e is the change to the Armour rules. It's been a while since I looked at them but they were a little unintuitive to me. Instead of Damage Reduction it gave you pools of D6s and was more complex.

There's been some minor complaints about additional complexity, compared to 1e, in a few other areas. I can't remember the specifics. I don't think most of them are a big deal anyway. It's still a very light game. Personally, I have 1e and 2e (and a whole bunch of third party stuff) and just use it as a big gaming toolbox.

I'm not sure which edition Barbarians of the Ruined Earth is based on. I'm assuming it's 2e. Anyone know?

Yeah the armor rules are more convoluted than required to me.
 

Halda

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I'm not sure which edition Barbarians of the Ruined Earth is based on. I'm assuming it's 2e. Anyone know?

I have gien it a quick skim/read and it has armor that reduces a fix number of HPs. I assume 1st ed (I don't have either edition of Black Hack).
 

Halda

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I have skimmed over it and read bits and pieces. It looks really cool and gonzo. Some nice tables and the classes are full of flavor.
 

NinjaWeasel

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I have gien it a quick skim/read and it has armor that reduces a fix number of HPs. I assume 1st ed (I don't have either edition of Black Hack).

I've done a bit of digging around and yes, you're correct, it is based on Black Hack 1e. I found a Reddit post where the developer confirmed it.
 

Fenris-77

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The 2E armour rules aren't actually complicated, just different. Instead of a straight -X for armour worn, which can degrade, you have Armour Dice X which can each be exchanged to avoid all damage from one hit, and then need to be repaired.

As far as compatibility goes, 1E and 2E are pretty compatible. Very little faffing need be done.
 

Fenris-77

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Also, CRKrueger CRKrueger may or may not like the game, but he will definitely find time tobtwit me about how much I like it. This is why the Pub is great.
 

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Looks pretty good. The print on demand copy Ben had in the video looked nice. Higher quality than I'd have thought, as far as a video can show.
 

CRKrueger

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Hey what's wrong with Black Hack? I just bought 2nd edition last week and skimmed through it; it seemed pretty cool but I didn't deep dive into the nuts and bolts, I am legitimately interested in your opinion on this.
Jesus dude, sorry I missed this. Ok, let’s see.

Players roll everything.
This is just a non-starter.

Rolling Stats
Straight 3d6, ok Good. If you get a 15+ the next one is 2d6+2? Why, mechanical balance? To bolster other character’s self-esteem? Weird.

Usage Die
If you’re unlucky, your quiver of arrows could contain 6 shots. If you’re lucky, then everyone’s focused on how many times you can pass a test in a row. It takes the In-Character pressure of having your resources deplete and turns that into an Out-of-Character pressure on how lucky your die rolling is. What do you gain? The freedom to not have to think as the character about how much time is actually passing and preparing for how long your supplies last? That’s not a benefit when you’re playing a RPG in my opinion.

Initiative
Test to go before or after the monsters, that’s pretty clever. The problem with it is, the meta discussion about the order of the players when they’re in combat. We can have a talk about how the hothead young thief rushes in instead of holding back and waiting until after the armored fighter, or we can just do it as the characters and have the thief Roleplay whether he holds back.

Ranges
Thank god it’s not Zones like 2d20 and at least they give rough numbers if you want them, but whether you play Theatre of the Mind or not, I’ve always found actual numbers to be faster while having no issues.

Encumbrance
Number of items regardless of size or weight. Oh great, more discussion about whether it makes sense to carry that load, rather than just looking at the weight of it and knowing. Sometimes numbers are just faster, especially if you’re focused from the character view as opposed to the player view.

Armor
The fact that it’s DR is good. The fact that Armor blocks one good hit maybe before it is totally useless, no matter what level fighter you are is bad. Haven’t looked at 2.0 Armor yet.

So basically it doesn’t really do much to address D&D’s biggest issue, Hit Points, and adds a bunch of abstractions to focus you further away from an IC perspective using a bunch of New School mechanics favoured by the Indie/Forgie/Narrative crowd. It streamlines but causes it’s own problems.

To be honest, if the guy’s name was David Jablonski and he didn’t put the Horns on the cover, I doubt it would be anywhere near half as popular. :devil:
 

Fenris-77

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And some people look at exactly the same mechanics and love them. Go figure. Nor does everyone find that the mechanics there focus you away from IC play. I get that might be true in terms of your narrow personal definition (which is fine) but I wouldn't say it's true in any kind of broader sense. I don't find it true for example, nor do many of the people I've played the game with. So there's that. Anyway, there's a flipside to your somewhat slanted review so I've mixed in a different opinion below, at least for some of the items on your naughty list.

There are mechanical reasons for the stat rolling of course, if you take a look at what happens when you level up you'll see what I mean (you roll for all stats to see if they improve each level). It also helps balance out starting characters.

On average a quiver of arrows will last for (edit- an average of) five battles, or as few as two, based on luck. Sounds about the same as counting arrows and rolling for breakage to me. *shrug* I get that it's not for everyone, naturally, but I've never been keen on obsessive equipment tracking. It harshes my mellow.

Armour goes up to 4 dice, plus helmet and shield at one each, so it might absorb 6 complete hits (player choice) before needing to be repaired. Only the lightest armour only has one armour die.

I haven't had any issues with the initiative in terms of too much meta talk, but I also use a moving spotlight in combat, so some of the decisions about who goes next is driven by me. I also don't play with anyone currently who I think it given to that sort of thing anyway, and those people tend to be like that in any game, IMO. Some also just people don't like side or split side initiative of course, which is fine.

A small last thing, BH2E doesn't have the same cover as 1E, or at least my copy doesn't, so, no horns. :grin:
 
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CRKrueger

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And some people look at exactly the same mechanics and love them. Go figure. Nor does everyone find that the mechanics there focus you away from IC play. I get that might be true in terms of your narrow personal definition (which is fine) but I wouldn't say it's true in any kind of broader sense. I don't find it true for example, nor do many of the people I've played the game with. So there's that. Anyway, there's a flipside to your somewhat slanted review so I've mixed in a different opinion below, at least for some of the items on your naughty list.
Heh, “narrow personal definition”. I know, “In-Character” has just an endless cornucopia of possible meanings. The people you play games with are the people you play games like PbtA and BitD with? No surprise there then, they share a similar playstyle as you.

BTW, this wasn’t a review at all, it was an answer to a specific question as to why I don’t like it. It would be kind of odd if the response was neutral or positive, wouldn’t it?

There are mechanical reasons for the stat rolling of course, if you take a look at what happens when you level up you'll see what I mean (you roll for all stats to see if they improve each level). It also helps balance out starting characters.
Eh, the mechanism for leveling seems like it takes care of that anyway in the long run. Easy enough fix, but it’s one of the signals to the author’s design philosophy that shows I’m not his audience.

On average a quiver of arrows will last for (edit- an average of) five battles, or as few as two, based on luck. Sounds about the same as counting arrows and rolling for breakage to me. *shrug* I get that it's not for everyone, naturally, but I've never been keen on obsessive equipment tracking. It harshes my mellow.
Oh here we go...actually keeping track of supplies is “obsessive“, eh?

Armour goes up to 4 dice, plus helmet and shield at one each, so it might absorb 6 complete hits (player choice) before needing to be repaired. Only the lightest armour only has one armour die.
Sounds like the new 2.0 Armor system, which I specifically said I didn’t read. Good to know it got changed.

I haven't had any issues with the initiative in terms of too much meta talk, but I also use a moving spotlight in combat, so some of the decisions about who goes next is driven by me. I also don't play with anyone currently who I think it given to that sort of thing anyway, and those people tend to be like that in any game, IMO. Some also just people don't like side or split side initiative of course, which is fine.
Could you explain in more detail the Moving Spotlight?
 

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I find the worry about in-character play in something this gonzo odd.

How do you find immersion in such a setting in the first place?
 

CRKrueger

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I find the worry about in-character play in something this gonzo odd.

How do you find immersion in such a setting in the first place?
Well, the question was about Black Hack itself. Don’t know how crazy this setting is. Could you get into the setting of Thunder?
 

3rik

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Though I don't mind keeping track of ammo or rations, I can see applying a usage die in the case of torches or lantern fuel for example, where the amount will not always decrease at the same speed.
 

Baulderstone

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Though I don't mind keeping track of ammo or rations, I can see applying a usage die in the case of torches or lantern fuel for example, where the amount will not always decrease at the same speed.
That's my position as well. I can see abstracting automatic weapons fire to some extent, but marking off one arrow round isn't fiddly at all. It's certainly not worth trading out the possibility to run out of ammo in the middle of a fight. However, the usage die is pretty cool for situations with genuine uncertainty.

Still, house-ruling in ammo instead of a usage die is easy.
 
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Fenris-77

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Heh, “narrow personal definition”. I know, “In-Character” has just an endless cornucopia of possible meanings. The people you play games with are the people you play games like PbtA and BitD with? No surprise there then, they share a similar playstyle as you.

BTW, this wasn’t a review at all, it was an answer to a specific question as to why I don’t like it. It would be kind of odd if the response was neutral or positive, wouldn’t it?

Eh, the mechanism for leveling seems like it takes care of that anyway in the long run. Easy enough fix, but it’s one of the signals to the author’s design philosophy that shows I’m not his audience.

Oh here we go...actually keeping track of supplies is “obsessive“, eh?

Sounds like the new 2.0 Armor system, which I specifically said I didn’t read. Good to know it got changed.

Could you explain in more detail the Moving Spotlight?
I wasnt taking a shot at your play style. However, we all know very well that you have strong and specific opinions. The IC bit is a good example. I don't share your opinion of BH in that regard. It doesn't steer anyone away from IC roleplaying.

Something I find interesting here. You can apparently employ all the sarcasm and whatever in your account of what you dont like about the game, but when someone else does the same in reply its all "here we go again". Lets not be too precious of our own opinions and position shall we?

Also, and not to put too fine a point on this, why dont you go fuck off with the "oh thats who you play with" bullshit. You dont have any idea who I play with, so lets not pretend you do to try and score rhetorical points.
 

Voros

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The Black Hack is pretty incidental to Barbarians, most of its GM tools are completely system neutral and is is absurdly simple to convert to OSE or whatever one prefers.
 

Fenris-77

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My apologies. To be clear CRK, I wasn't using the word obessive to describe you at all. I was thinking of some specific games I've played in where tracking consumables has ended up overshadowing a lot of the game.
 
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