Barbarians of the Ruined Earth by Mike Evans of DIY RPG Prod.

[hawkeyefan]

That's my position as well. I can see abstracting automatic weapons fire to some extent, but marking off one arrow round isn't fiddly at all. It's certainly not worth trading out the possibility to run out of ammo in the middle of a fight. However, the usage die is pretty cool for situations with genuine uncertainty.

Still, house-ruling in ammo instead of a usage die is easy.

I kind of take the usage die for ammo to be more about how much you can recover. I agree that tracking arrow use isn’t exactly difficult, but determining how many can be recovered or foraged or crafted involves a lot more rolling and so on. Abstracting that as a usage die seems a reasonable way to do it.

Although, as you and others have said, switching to a specific ammo count is pretty easy.

 

[Baulderstone]

I kind of take the usage die for ammo to be more about how much you can recover. I agree that tracking arrow use isn’t exactly difficult, but determining how many can be recovered or foraged or crafted involves a lot more rolling and so on. Abstracting that as a usage die seems a reasonable way to do it.

Although, as you and others have said, switching to a specific ammo count is pretty easy.

My objection comes down to the point that you can never run out of ammo in the middle of a fight with usage die mechanics. If that kind of situation can't happen, I'd find it easier just to completely get rid of tracking ammo.

I'm not really clear on how making a usage die roll after each fight is any easier than making an arrow recovery roll after each fight. As for crafting, I'm not aware of usage die rolls to increase your number of arrows between combats.

 

[RunningLaser]

I read that the usage dice were supposed to represent uncertainty. As a player we can tick off how many arrows we fired or think how easy it is to look into the quiver and count. But maybe in the heat of battle, the character wouldn't have that option. Maybe you pulled a Jack Black ala Year One when you pulled out an arrow. In thw end, it's something different that you can either like, not like or be indifferent to.

I got Black Hack 2e and really dig it so far.

 

[Fenris-77]

The game doesn't have a specific crafting mechanic, so that would be down to a character with the appropriate skills deciding to do so. From an adjudication standpoint I would probably have them roll wisdom and allow a successful check to either bump the usage die or work toward that if I thought multiple successes were called for. In practice I think mostly it's just about buy more arrows.

 

[Baulderstone]

I read that the usage dice were supposed to represent uncertainty. As a player we can tick off how many arrows we fired or think how easy it is to look into the quiver and count. But maybe in the heat of battle, the character wouldn't have that option. Maybe you pulled a Jack Black ala Year One when you pulled out an arrow.

That can't happen though. As usage die rolls are only made at the end of a fight, if you started a fight with arrows, you always get arrows when reach into your quiver.

 

[Fenris-77]

That can't happen though. As usage die rolls are only made at the end of a fight, if you started a fight with arrows, you always get arrows when reach into your quiver.

I think he meant uncertainty more in terms of breakage and loss. I get how the above could bother someone though. When I was digesting the rules for the first time I thought about it in terms of making a few more arrows during camp or whatever and generally being prepared for at least the next fight.

 

[RunningLaser]

What Fenris said.

 

[Baulderstone]

Got it. I'm going to drop the topic anyway. I think we've picked over the usage die topic enough. There are plenty of other things to talk about in the game.

 

[hawkeyefan]

My objection comes down to the point that you can never run out of ammo in the middle of a fight with usage die mechanics. If that kind of situation can't happen, I'd find it easier just to completely get rid of tracking ammo.

Yeah, that’s the drawback for sure. How often do you find that actually happen in your games, though?

I think that the idea is more about supply over time. Because the games that use them are very much delve/expedition type games. So the usage dies represents dwindling supply over time, and pressing on rather than returning to town/safety to resupply is the decision to be made.

I'm not really clear on how making a usage die roll after each fight is any easier than making an arrow recovery roll after each fight. As for crafting, I'm not aware of usage die rolls to increase your number of arrows between combats.

Well, the usage die takes all those things into consideration, instead of having multiple rolls.

I’m personally not sure if it’s the best thing to use for ammo, myself. Seems to make more sense for food and torches and the like. But I also don’t think it has such a large impact on the game to be a point of contention for me.

I wonder more about it in a setting where ammo isn’t arrows, but rather bullets or battery packs or what have you. The mechanic would seem to fit some types of ammo better than others.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'll admit that I'm still unsure if I like the new armour system. I'm using for the PbP game here so we'll see how it goes. In theory it seems fine, but I need to see it in play.

 

[RunningLaser]

Who here has the game? It looks good, but the full color price tag is ouchy.

 

[RunningLaser]

Hope I didn't come across as a pud to anyone, and if I did, apologies.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Who here has the game? It looks good, but the full color price tag is ouchy.

I don’t. I’m torn. I like it, but I’m not sure at all when I’d actually get to play it. My group has our next campaign picked out. And although a couple of my players were reminiscing about Thundarr the Barbarian in our last session, and I know they’d love this, I also know that if I buy it, I’d be the one to have to run it.

I’m trying to play more often these days so I’m gonna tey and convince one of my players to get it.

 

[Voros]

Who here has the game? It looks good, but the full color price tag is ouchy.

I've got in pdf as I backed the KS. It is awesome but if there's anything specific you want to know left me know. So far everything I've got from Mike Evans has been quality; flavourful and imaginative but also built for ease of use and reference.

 

[CRKrueger]

I wasnt taking a shot at your play style. However, we all know very well that you have strong and specific opinions. The IC bit is a good example. I don't share your opinion of BH in that regard. It doesn't steer anyone away from IC roleplaying.

Agree to disagree. It’s the About/As thing.

Also, and not to put too fine a point on this, why dont you go fuck off with the "oh thats who you play with" bullshit. You dont have any idea who I play with, so lets not pretend you do to try and score rhetorical points.

Fair enough.

 

[RunningLaser]

Voros Is it closer to Black Hack 1 or 2? Are there a lot of random tables in the book? Is the game tied to a specific ruined earth, or is it more of making your own?

 

[CRKrueger]

My apologies. To be clear CRK, I wasn't using the word obessive to describe you at all. I was thinking of some specific games I've played in where tracking consumables has ended up overshadowing a lot of the game.

No worries man, it’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. I can’t fault you for thinking I might be doing a bit of a threadcrap to throw snark on the game, but to be honest, I came here because you summoned me, and then saw I had missed Brock’s question to me. But the question is asked and answered so enough about the Black Hack itself. As TJS alluded to, this might not be the game to do a ten page RPG theory digression.

Edit: BTW, can you unpack that Moving Spotlight, not going to make a big tangent out of it, just want to be sure I have the full meaning.

 

[CRKrueger]

So, the base system is pretty light and set up for D&D. How does this game bring the Thundarr? Obviously the art is awesome. Reminds me of Aos art. New classes were mentioned, what else?

 

[CRKrueger]

I will say the art looks pretty cool. This picture is now the dictionary definition for When You Find Out How Fucked You Really Are

 

[Voros]

Voros Is it closer to Black Hack 1 or 2? Are there a lot of random tables in the book? Is the game tied to a specific ruined earth, or is it more of making your own?

I've only read BH 1e and that was a while ago so I'm not sure I could spot the differences. The first 40 pages are rules (20 pgs) and new setting specific classes (20 pgs). The armor rules are pretty simple damage reduction and I dimly recall the armor rule in BH 1e bothering me so these seem different. Those old armor rules bothered me more than usage die, which are still here. There are rules for advantage/disadvantage and crits I'm unsure if they're unique to the game or from BH 1e or 2e.

The classes are pretty awesome and flavourful: barbarian obviously but also beastman, robot, death priest, raptorfolk (!), scavenger, urchin, etc. The magic system for Sorcerers is pretty powerful but also freeform, seems unique to the game.

The settings central conceit is that this is our current world in ruins so the idea is to present the familiar or well known in a weird context (Golden Gate bridge as an artifact worshipped by a cult of death priests for example). Lots of charts to create mutations, cyberware, unique items, locations, npcs, villages and their troubles, weird food, books, mounts, weather and random encounters.

There is an approx. 50 page bestiary (one per page with a cool illustration) with familiar and unique monsters and factions and then a keyed map with descriptions of the 'Western lands' (aka. California and LA) for sandbox play and to help you get started.

 

[Fenris-77]

No worries man, it’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. I can’t fault you for thinking I might be doing a bit of a threadcrap to throw snark on the game, but to be honest, I came here because you summoned me, and then saw I had missed Brock’s question to me. But the question is asked and answered so enough about the Black Hack itself. As TJS alluded to, this might not be the game to do a ten page RPG theory digression.

Edit: BTW, can you unpack that Moving Spotlight, not going to make a big tangent out of it, just want to be sure I have the full meaning.

Sure. In any game where theres no set initiative there's always a negotiation around who acts first or next or whatever within a given initiative band (in this case before or after the monsters). I'm happy to let the players take the reigns but I'll also happily just move the spotlight as makes sense if that doesn't happen. Usually with the goal of doing anything critical first, with less sensitive things coming later. Generally speaking I move from melee outward unless someone wants to get stuck in or otherwise affect targets already in melee.

 

[Voros]

Sure. In any game where theres no set initiative there's always a negotiation around who acts first or next or whatever within a given initiative band (in this case before or after the monsters). I'm happy to let the players take the reigns but I'll also happily just move the spotlight as makes sense if that doesn't happen. Usually with the goal of doing anything critical first, with less sensitive things coming later. Generally speaking I move from melee outward unless someone wants to get stuck in or otherwise affect targets already in melee.

Barbarians has a standard initiative system.

 

[Baulderstone]

I really like group or split initiative as it gets players working together. The standard method of initiative creates this feeling of isolation. It discourages coming up with cooperative actions. It just keeps things feeling looser in general as well. The game feels closer to the way it does outside of combat, rather than turning into a heavily regimented game when a fight breaks out.