BESM 4th edition

TristramEvans

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Pretty sure I'm not shelling out $90 for the rulebook.

Anyone know how the rules differ from 2e? ( never saw 3rd, but heard bad things)
 

FeralToaster

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Thank you for the heads up on this Tristram. Somehow I had forgotten to mark this on my calendar. Okay seeing a December release (nice) but not seeing any new original setting books nor any tie-in books with official anime and manga (holding out hope that they are sitting on something to rebuild the momentum after the first 24 hours).

Man this is one of the few systems that I feel got the feel of Pokemon fighting right and now with more than 800 of the things runing amok we need a new expanded setting book for them.
 

Trippy

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It follows on from 3rd edition by making it 2D6 roll high, sensibly in my view. I dunno, it's basically a simplified version of GURPS with a lot of anime/manga art. Might be just what some people want. Not sure for me, but I'll follow it nevertheless.
 

Allen Varney

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Those considering a pledge for this BESM 4E Kickstarter should be aware the designer, Mark MacKinnon, has a long and unpleasant history in gaming. As publisher of Guardians of Order (1996-2006), MacKinnon stiffed many contributors of hundreds or thousands of dollars. He remains completely unrepentant, and has said he's not liable for those debts as they were incurred under his previous company. It's up to you whether you want to take the chance he'll deliver this time.
 

Doc Sammy

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YES! YES! YES!


This is the greatest news I have heard in the entire RPG industry in a very long time.

As for those still bitching about how Mark C. MacKinnon poorly handled the demise of his old company, that was over a decade ago. Take the advice of Elsa and just let it go...

If you really don't want to support Mark C. MacKinnon, then don't buy his new book.

The fact that this got fully funded means he's probably reformed and enough people have faith in him again.
 

Tommy Brownell

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YES! YES! YES!


This is the greatest news I have heard in the entire RPG industry in a very long time.

As for those still bitching about how Mark C. MacKinnon poorly handled the demise of his old company, that was over a decade ago. Take the advice of Elsa and just let it go...

If you really don't want to support Mark C. MacKinnon, then don't buy his new book.

The fact that this got fully funded means he's probably reformed and enough people have faith in him again.
Is it really reformation if the debts were never settled?
 

zweihander

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Mark Mackinnon has burned numerous, well-established people in the tabletop role-playing game industry:

Mark MacKinnon responded some years ago:

You be the judge.
 

Simlasa

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Is Mark MacKinnon the guy who used to right the 'From My Parents' Basement' articles in Pyramid?
 

Trippy

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As for those still bitching about how Mark C. MacKinnon poorly handled the demise of his old company, that was over a decade ago. Take the advice of Elsa and just let it go...
This is a bit rich considering the people/game companies/games you have vocally expressed vendettas for….but still, I'm gald you've found a game you like.
 

TristramEvans

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|I completely understand and empathize with anyone who does not trust MM or want to give any money to him, based on all accounts I've heard over the years regarding how he handled GoO's demise. It's a shame, as they were once upon a time my favourite RPG publishers for a little while in the late 90s, when BESM was my go-to system. I also understand that many people don't care about the people behind a product, jusrt the product itself, and I've mostly got no problem with that PoV either..
 

TristramEvans

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It's also worth mentioning that what that post by MM at Boardgamegeek doesn't address is that years after GoO filed bankruptcy that MM was caught continuing to sell pdfs of BESM, no profits of which went to paying any of the unpaid debts.

Personally, I'm torn over the whole thing, so I'm not going to ignore what happened and I'm also not here to condemn.
 

Tommy Brownell

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The BGG post is worth reading into the comments. Rebuttals from people who he still owes money to, plus the PDF stuff, come up in it.
 

Jetstream

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The fact that this got fully funded means he's probably reformed and enough people have faith in him again.
Oh come on now, Sammy. Let's be real.

The fact that it got fully funded is only evidence that at least several hundred people don't care :tongue:
 

Jetstream

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It's also worth mentioning that what that post by MM at Boardgamegeek doesn't address is that years after GoO filed bankruptcy that MM was caught continuing to sell pdfs of BESM, no profits of which went to paying any of the unpaid debts.

Personally, I'm torn over the whole thing, so I'm not going to ignore what happened and I'm also not here to condemn.
I just think the books cost more than I'm willing to spend in the same month as Trinity Continuum: Aberrant and Torg Eternity: Asyle are running.
 

TristramEvans

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The BGG post is worth reading into the comments. Rebuttals from people who he still owes money to, plus the PDF stuff, come up in it.
I just realized GMS was in that thread! Delicious irony!

GarethMichaelSkarka said:
My take: I understand failure. I get it, and I'm not going to blame somebody for failing. GoO went under owing me a considerable amount money -- but that's not my issue.

My problem was the silence. The dodging once the writing was on the wall.
 

urbwar

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I just realized GMS was in that thread! Delicious irony!
Oh yeah. There are some past threads on rpg net I've looked at where he took another publisher to task, then years later, he's done far, far worse. He's one of the biggest hypocrites in the rpg industry imho
 

Doc Sammy

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Is it really reformation if the debts were never settled?
Well, if you're that butthurt over unsettled debts from before I was in high school, then look at it this way, he can use a portion of any profits from BESM to pay them back if those people still care enough about old dead debts in 2019.

I'm going to buy the new version of BESM because I want to support my favorite RPG and it's also a great way to give the finger to all those pretentious punks and capeshit fans who look for any excuses to hate on BESM while supporting far more insidious companies and developers

Like those who still support Onyx Path despite all their heinous actions and beliefs that they are still doing in 2019, yet will give Mark C. MacKinnon hell over old debts from 2007 that his debtors probably don't even care about anymore (at least the majority of them)

And if you want to support Onyx Path because you like their products despite the wretched people who worked or still work for them, then you are free to do so and I will be fine with your decision.

All I ask is that you don't jump my ass for supporting Mark MacKinnon and BESM.
 

Doc Sammy

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Wait, are you saying these unsettled debts were from last year?
I graduated high school in 2011 and I was born in 1993. You know that.

The point is that I was making a serious post.

Supporting a game you like regardless of the creator's personal flaws is what separates the Pub from the over-politicized partisan sites like Pundit's forum, RPG.net, and Onyx Path Forums.
 
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TristramEvans

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Doc, let me be the second poster to say that I'm happy that you're happy about this Kickstarter.

That said, it is absolutely valid when discussing a crowd-funding campaign especially, to discuss the business history of the person running said campaign. These issues are not irrelevant simply because you are young. This is a small hobby, and many of the people screwed over for (in some cases) thousands of dollars by MM's dishonesty are people that folks here have interacted with or known personally for as long or longer. It's fine that you have made your decision, and I''ve seen no post in this thread disparage you or anyone else for that, but it seems like you are attempting to shut down the conversation or dismiss legitimate concerns based on nothing besides the fact that you are a fan. I think being an informed consumer is a pretty important thing myself, just as important for people to be allowed to make up their own minds.

And that's what's going to happen, people will make up their own minds. Information is not going to hurt that.
 

Doc Sammy

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Doc, let me be the second poster to say that I'm happy that you're happy about this Kickstarter.

That said, it is absolutely valid when discussing a crowd-funding campaign especially, to discuss the business history of the person running said campaign. These issues are not irrelevant simply because you are young. This is a small hobby, and many of the people screwed over for (in some cases) thousands of dollars by MM's dishonesty are people that folks here have interacted with or known personally for as long or longer. It's fine that you have made your decision, and I''ve seen no post in this thread disparage you or anyone else for that, but it seems like you are attempting to shut down the conversation or dismiss legitimate concerns based on nothing besides the fact that you are a fan. I think being an informed consumer is a pretty important thing myself, just as important for people to be allowed to make up their own minds.

And that's what's going to happen, people will make up their own minds. Information is not going to hurt that.
Understandable, and I can see why some would be concerned about this.

But given that it's gotten this far already and is already funded and primed for release, I am going to be cautiously optimistic about BESM and MM turning over a new leaf.

I do believe people are entitled to their legitimate criticisms, but I'll admit that it does rub me the wrong way when people are going to attack MM yet still stand by companies like Onyx Path who have done some dubious things of their own and still continue to do so to this day in some cases.

I would go into detail with some of these things, but I don't want to break any rules since a lot of the bad stuff was motivated by the political extremism of several key figures at Onyx Path, both past and present and a lot of the ongoing stuff is tied to their subtle dominance of RPGnet, which is a minefield in and of itself.

If you don't wanna support BESM because of concerns over Mark MacKinnon's previous conduct, I get that.

I'm just worried over being attacked because I choose to still support BESM and give Mark the benefit of the doubt.
 

urbwar

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Well, if you're that butthurt over unsettled debts from before I was in high school, then look at it this way, he can use a portion of any profits from BESM to pay them back if those people still care enough about old dead debts in 2019.
Except he has no intention on doing that. He made that clear with his post on Boardgamegeeks years ago.
 

Trippy

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The point is that I was making a serious post.
It ceased to be a serious post when you hypocritically used it as a platform to rant about game companies you don't like - who haven't actually done anything wrong in business terms at all.
 

TristramEvans

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I do believe people are entitled to their legitimate criticisms, but I'll admit that it does rub me the wrong way when people are going to attack MM yet still stand by companies like Onyx Path who have done some dubious things of their own and still continue to do so to this day in some cases.

I would go into detail with some of these things, but I don't want to break any rules since a lot of the bad stuff was motivated by the political extremism of several key figures at Onyx Path, both past and present and a lot of the ongoing stuff is tied to their subtle dominance of RPGnet, which is a minefield in and of itself.
If Onyx Path have engaged in dishonest business practices, I think that's just as valid to discuss divorced from their political motivations, we've talked about KS scammers here frequently, as well as other hobby figures. But if whatever you're referring to (I honestly know next to nothing about them as a company other than the fact several prominent members of another forum were once associated with them) is so much about Politics that it can't/shouldn't be discussed here, then it's not exactly an analogous situation. I assume we have posters that run the gamut of the political spectrum, so people are going to have different standards of what is considered acceptable behaviour for a RPG company, whereas it doesn't matter what part of the spectrum one falls on to agree that dishonesty and not paying people for their work is unacceptable, that's a completely nonpartisan societal standard I assume we all share.


I'm just worried over being attacked because I choose to still support BESM and give Mark the benefit of the doubt.
Speaking as a Mod, we won't stand for that at the Pub, so no need to worry. But it cuts both ways, we're also not going to villainize any Onyx Path fans (assuming we actually have any posters that could be described as such, I honestly don't recall much in the way of Onyx Path fandom here)
 

Luca

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Well, if you're that butthurt over unsettled debts from before I was in high school

<snip>

All I ask is that you don't jump my ass for supporting Mark MacKinnon and BESM.
Considering MM has never repaid those debts and has instead plainly stated he has no intention of ever doing it (which would be the PROPER THING TO DO), if you don't want to get attacked (which no one has done so far, btw) you might want to avoid expressions like "butthurt" while referring to legitimate grievances by people swindled out of their fairly earned money, as if complaining about getting swindled was childish behavior. Just saying...
 

Tommy Brownell

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Well, if you're that butthurt over unsettled debts from before I was in high school, then look at it this way, he can use a portion of any profits from BESM to pay them back if those people still care enough about old dead debts in 2019.

I'm going to buy the new version of BESM because I want to support my favorite RPG and it's also a great way to give the finger to all those pretentious punks and capeshit fans who look for any excuses to hate on BESM while supporting far more insidious companies and developers

Like those who still support Onyx Path despite all their heinous actions and beliefs that they are still doing in 2019, yet will give Mark C. MacKinnon hell over old debts from 2007 that his debtors probably don't even care about anymore (at least the majority of them)

And if you want to support Onyx Path because you like their products despite the wretched people who worked or still work for them, then you are free to do so and I will be fine with your decision.

All I ask is that you don't jump my ass for supporting Mark MacKinnon and BESM.
I really give zero shits about what you do.

I was just questioning the idea that he's "reformed" when he's done exactly zero to make anything right, and has doubled down on the fact that he has no intentions of making anything right.

Do whatever you want to. I was never going to buy this game anyway. I'm not a fan of BESM in the best of circumstances. But I especially couldn't do it now, because his shadiness nearly bankrupted Misfit Studios. Why does that matter to me? Because I worked for Steve Trustrum on a non-gaming freelance gig years ago when I desperately needed that money to survive and feed my kid, and Steve went above and beyond to take care of me, even when his own boss thought my getting paid was a low priority. I'm not even particularly close friends with Steve now, but I do remember the people that took care of me.

Don't worry, the game's been funded. You'll still get it, assuming it gets released (this company is behind on multiple Kickstarters, as I understand from the comments section of the BESM Kickstarter page).
 

Jetstream

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But it cuts both ways, we're also not going to villainize any Onyx Path fans (assuming we actually have any posters that could be described as such, I honestly don't recall much in the way of Onyx Path fandom here)
Yo.

I think Rich Thomas is kind of a jerk, but Rich isn't his company.
 

Gabriel

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Pretty sure I'm not shelling out $90 for the rulebook.

Anyone know how the rules differ from 2e? ( never saw 3rd, but heard bad things)
I doubt that I'm going to contribute to this Kickstarter. I'll probably wait until the actual book hits retail. Then again, I've done stupider things.

Anyway, differences between 2e and 3e.

As already stated, 3e is roll high. It's stat + skill + 2d6 versus a difficulty number. Combat is opposed roll.

Base DCV is no longer a modified CV value. Your base CV is just your base CV for both attack and defense.

Lots of things were re-costed. And attributes which provided things like armor points had their values per rank changed accordingly. There's much less of an emphasis on a 6 level cap on attributes and skills. Even the examples pretty much toss the 6 level limit out the window.

Damage is now regulated by a damage multiplier. In 2e, a weapon did damage equal to it's rank * 15 + any fixed bonuses from Super Strength and/or Massive Damage. In 3e, all characters have a damage multiplier. This value starts at 5. A weapon does damage equal to its Rank * Damage Multiplier. Super Strength and Massive Damage now increase the damage multiplier instead of adding fixed damage. This has the odd effect of Super Strength characters requiring a weapon to get anything out of their super strength beyond what anyone else could do.

Power Modifier Values were brought over from Tri-Stat dX. In 2e, powers more or less had fixed range, duration, and area of effect depending on the attribute description and rank. In 3e every power can be assigned a PMV. This way the player can buy range, duration, and/or area of effect for every attribute. It's a straight addition, so if you want to add three levels of range and two areas of area of effect to your attribute, it costs (3+2) 5 points.
 

Gabriel

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Looking at the preview PDF on the Kickstarter, it definitely looks like a more polished 3e. Well, that is what the Kickstarter description says. The preview "What's New in BESM Fourth Edition" section even makes it pretty clear this is just a clean up and tweak of 3e without directly saying it.

I get the impression PMVs are gone, replaced by (presumably) attribute specific Enhancements and Limiters which sound a lot like the weapon qualities on the Weapon/Special Attack attribute. It's a shame. PMVs were so much simpler, more intuitive, more useful, and could be applied to anything.

I like the opening splash page image. Whoever drew the faerie/angel on the last page is seriously trying to channel Kosuke Fujishima. I still don't like the new logo or sample cover at all.

The BESM Naked thing harkens back to something that was being talked about in the final days of GoO. The idea back then was to publish a "BESM Classic" book as a companion to BESM3. Back then the idea was that Classic would be reprint of 1e. Now, I guess the plan is that Naked will be simplified version of 4e? Like Hero Sidekick or Hero Basic?

Edit: And looking at the stretch goals, I can't say any of them seem the slightest bit appealing.
 

Armchair Gamer

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Looking at the preview PDF on the Kickstarter, it definitely looks like a more polished 3e. Well, that is what the Kickstarter description says. The preview "What's New in BESM Fourth Edition" section even makes it pretty clear this is just a clean up and tweak of 3e without directly saying it.
Since I own 3E in hardcover and PDF, that soothes any regrets about not backing this.

Edit: And looking at the stretch goals, I can't say any of them seem the slightest bit appealing.
I was thinking that MacKinnon could make up some ground in the industry by setting a stretch goal of 'pay off at least some of GoO's obligations', but that doesn't seem to be the path he's taking.
 

AsenRG

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I was thinking that MacKinnon could make up some ground in the industry by setting a stretch goal of 'pay off at least some of GoO's obligations', but that doesn't seem to be the path he's taking.
You know this would have provoked a stream of accusations, right:grin:?
 

EmperorNorton

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Personal opinion, OVA by Clay Gardner is a better game in the same genre/style as BESM anyway, and Clay Gardner has never ripped anyone off.

The only problem I've ever had with Clay is that the man is the slowest person in the world, but he finally got OVA Revised out so you know, good for him. (He did name his company Wise Turtle, so I guess he picked the right name.)
 
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