Best case scenario...would you forgive WotC?

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TristramEvans

TristramEvans

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OK, so say Hasbro execs pull their heads out of their asses and

one) say they will not try to deauthorize or revoke the OGL
and
two) as a show of good faith, release a revised OGL 1.1a that adds the term "irrevocable" to the terms

Would you forgive them for the last month of tomfuckery? Would that be enough to let bygnes be bygones?

If not is there anything specifically they would need to do for that to happen?
 
Well, the end result is with the word irrevocable people can continue playing games like D&D but aren't called D&D.

If we can do the same thing without WotC's blessing, does it make a difference?

Then there's also other things I'd need to forgive them for. Like ruining the Forgotten Realms in 4e. Even with the stuff they tried to do in 5e, FR is a dead husk of its former self.

It would take a lot more than an OGL with the word irrevocable for them to get any of my money.
 
It's not likely to change my game buying habits. There are so many other games already that are more what I want to play. I won't necessarily boycott D&D and refuse to ever play it again, but I already have enough in my library to run a D&D-style fantasy game. On the other hand, if there's a new book that looks really interesting (setting or rules-wise), I might still pick it up.

I'm a lot less likely to splurge on branded 'lifestyle' merchandise (t-shirts, keychains, etc.) since it's obvious that the IP holder's motivation isn't to promote gaming but to make money. Even more obvious than the 'every corporation is only a profit engine and cannot be your friend' mindset, and instead a clear and specific statement that private (corporate) profit trumps community engagement. Wearing a D&D dragon ampersand branded hat doesn't say "I enjoy imaginative, social, creative play" anymore (if it ever did), now it just clearly says the same thing as any other corporate logo like a Nike swoosh.
 
Hasbro execs? I don't even think "forgive" is the right word here. This is pretty much the scorpion and the frog fable. They are what they are.

I'd definitely "forgive"/trust/buy WotC again if Peter Adkison would become the owner again.
 
Nah. i was actually spinning up the wheels for a Ravenloft campaign using 5e, with an eye to shading in the EinzZweiD&D playtest material as it emerged, but I'm hooked on the salt now. "NO TAKESIE BACKSIES!" is my battlecry, even if I end up cutting off my own nose to spite my face.

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No, I wouldn't - because of what they've tried. Even if they pull all the way back from it and then go further making the OGL irrevocable. I've seen too many people upset and, yes, downright hurt by this already so I empathise and sympathise with those folk. WotC has shit on them. And nastily.

That said, I don't buy anything off them and only have Beowulf that's 5e and a few OSR games, so unless they go nuclear on what they're doing my gaming won't be affected. I do hope a lot of others turn their back on them though and who were customers and big spenders. I'd like to see smaller companies benefit from increased interest and people playing their great games.

So, yeah, I'd love to see WotC/Hasbro get hurt badly from this. Fuck 'em.
 
I would be more inclined to if DNDOne looked like something I want to play. TBH I struggle to hold grudges at the best of time. Takes commitment and effort and quite honestly I find raging against a games company a bit pointless in the long run. Everybody just seems so angry about everything these days and none of it really seems to matter.

Already decided 5e is not the game for me so maybe my opinion doesn't really matter anyway?

If all their crazy plans for the worlds best DnD VTT take off and it all actually works... Well I won't refuse to look at it. But I certainly won't be an early adopter unless my friends are all jumping on first. Even then I have a natural loathing of anything that requires constant spending. Which is why I tend to stay away from the card games or anything from Games Workshop.
 
Nope.

But then, I had already phased out 5E from my GM-life. Both of my current games have been in Mythras for the past year or two and I'd no intention of starting any new 5E games. My players in these games prefer Mythras over 5E. They've all said the system makes more sense to them.

I play in 2 on-again/off-again 5E games and am most likely going to bow out of them in due time.
 
I'm not the least bit mad at them for trying to make the most amount of money with their products. Every single company does this including small rpg publishers and your other favorite companies. The only companies selling below cost or giving their products away (antitrust cases aside) are those who can't sell it anyway or are using "the first hit is free, but you'll have to pay for subsequent hits once addicted" business model.

What I found "offensive" (internet offensive not real life offensive) is their backpedalling OGL apology. Oh man, the words they chose to go with just triggered me like I was born after the year 2000.

I would forgive them... 'ish...if they fired everyone linked to that communication including whoever greenlit it. Hehe Of course I know that wouldn't change anything because ...well... capitalism... But I would appreciate the gesture.
 
It has very little impact on me either way. I have bought very little 5e (3 core books, all second hand and 1 new setting book as a present) and that is used by my son.
I am not surprised at their behaviour/motivations. I have no interest in OneD&D as a digital product.
I would prefer if the D20 bubble was smaller and other games bigger but none of that prevents me largely playing what I want.
 
I mean, businesses are gonna business. Anyone who expects altruism from any company will eventually be disappointed. WOTC has long been showing their intentions to focus on the bottom line so this move wasn't that much of a surprise.

Of course, I hadn't expected WOTC to step in it so profoundly. After this showing? Yeah, no. Businesses are going to business ... but ... alas ... idiots are gonna idiot.
 
Nothing to forgive. Personally I’m hoping that they make D&D VTT & Subscription only.

Then we would never have to mention it again.

It’s about the only thing that makes the Pub bad-tempered.

It would be even better if we could reclaim the original spirit of the OSR in which hobbyists just create games/scenarios etc. for the fun of it.
 
Corps gonna corp, but that doesn't mean I have to support it.

There may be an occasion in the future where the only game I can play with folk I want to play with is D&D, but that's what file sharing is for. They're not getting any more money from me.
 
I reserve forgiveness for humans. For businesses, I have a long memory, and I never trust them in the first place. That said, in Hasbro's case, they have not yet sinned so egregiously that they're on my banned for life list*. Meaning I may still buy product that interests me provided they make it available on my terms. If they try to force me, as a consumer, down a path I want no part of (looking at you, D&D subscription service), then I'm out until they see the error of their ways. If they never do, oh well. I don't need em.

*yes, I have such lists. There are certain companies that have been on it for years, some even for decades.
 
There are things WotC and Hasbro could do to bring me back. The bare minimum for me to consider this would be the following:
1: Release an OGL 1.0b with the same language as the OGL1.0a except adding in that it is irrevocable and that no one can de-authorize a previous version ever. Release control of this license to a foundation focused on open source agreements. Release the 3.5 and 5e SRDs under this license.
2: Sign on to the ORC license once it is finished. Do not try to have any say in its development. Release the 3.5 and 5e SRDs under this license.
3: Fire Hasbro CEO Chris Cocks and WotC president Cynthia Williams.
4: Spin off WotC as an entirely separate company from Hasbro with Hasbro as a company retaining no ownership of any part of WotC or any shares in WotC.

So do those things and then we can see.
 
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For a while now I've only been interested in some of their back catalogue anyway. From the current edition, I only own the PHB, and wasn't planning on trying the new edition. I was happy to basically ignore them until all this happened.
 
Dyrnwyn said:
For a while now I've only been interested in some of their back catalogue anyway. From the current edition, I only own the PHB, and wasn't planning on trying the new edition. I was happy to basically ignore them until all this happened.
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That's the situation I've been in as well, and it is amazing how much they've managed to piss me off this last week or so.
 
AsenRG said:
...same here. They tried it once, what's to guarantee a new management wouldn't revert to it?

Fuck them.
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If current management makes it irreversible. Putting out a new version of the OGL that changes nothing except declaring it can never be revoked or de-authorized and then giving the license to an already existing non-profit foundation. At that point what is future management going to do?
 
I haven't bought a WotC product since the 4e PHB, so there's not much they could do to get me back as a customer, but this fuckery with the OGL does touch several games and games publishers I support, so fuck them right in the earhole. they've proven themselves completely untrustworthy stewards of the OGL and if it bankrupted Hasbro and forced them to sell off the IP (fat chance) I wouldn't shed a single tear.
 
I rarely play D&D or anything d20. If I did it would be a game I already own.

I don't trust Hasbro and the chances of me buying any more of there products are somewhere between 0 and 10%. But much closer to 0.

The chances of me buying into their online D&D Beyond or anything resembling it are 0
 
I'm done with WotC. (And I'm one of the few here who actually likes 5e well enough to run it, even though it's not among my favourite FRPGs.)

I already was somewhat concerned about the proposed changes to the system that look to be coming with 1D&D/6e. They struck me as going back to the "bloat" of the 3e era (e.g., hardwiring feats into the system).

And while I liked using the free version of D&DB to maintain characters and check rules during play, I didn't like the direction in which it was going with 1D&D.

Independent of the current brouhaha, I hadn't been that interested in WotC products for a while now. I liked the Saltmarsh and Yawning Portal books from a few years ago -- but mainly because they (a) were collections of scenarios, and (b) provided updated 5e versions of older AD&D material. I don't care at all for the "adventure path" stuff. Aside from pulling a few adventures from the Essentials and Starter sets, I haven't used any "new" material from WotC, even for 5e. Goodman Games has gotten far more of my "5e money" than WotC has in recent years. (That said, I had been potentially interested in the new Planescape book -- but I'll pass on it now.)

I happily ignored WotC and "official" D&D during the 4e and (most of) 3e eras. I have no problem doing that again.
 
ReluctantGM said:
I mean, businesses are gonna business. Anyone who expects altruism from any company will eventually be disappointed. WOTC has long been showing their intentions to focus on the bottom line so this move wasn't that much of a surprise.

Of course, I hadn't expected WOTC to step in it so profoundly. After this showing? Yeah, no. Businesses are going to business ... but ... alas ... idiots are gonna idiot.
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Exactly.

I’m very disinterested in anything WOTC has gone since the end of 3.5.

But if tomorrow they released sone supplement I thought was amazing, I’d buy it.

That’s my view as a consumer.

As a designer, I’d be working to move myself well out from under any manner of WOTC/Hasbro licensing scheme as fast as possible.

WOTC no longer wants anyone yo play on their sandbox without providing value to WOTC. Whether by royalty or IP, it’s going yo be pay to play. This attitude will never change as long as WOTC is a part of Hasbro.
 
Well, I've never really trusted them; it's not like I buy everything without seeing reviews. In a few years, it'll be a whole new upper management and maybe I'll buy stuff if it's good. But, at this point, what have they actually done? A few things were leaked, which may or may not have been the the end product and they released a clumsy press release in response. An overpriced online system isn't evil, just bad pricing. I'll wait and see if they actually revoke the OGL; at least some insiders were planning on it, but it's not certain it's going to happen. Iff they back off, then I'll go back to not really thinking about them.
 
It isn't really about "forgiveness" for me because they haven't attacked me personally. It isn't even really about "trust," because I understand the motivations of publicly traded companies that have to answer to shareholders. I have worked for enough of them to see how they operate from the inside. When Hasbro bought WOTC, I figured that they would eventually screw something up in a big way, both from a player perspective and a business one. When they first started talking about replacing D&D Beyond, I strongly suspected that they were going to try to convert D&D to "rpg as a service," mixing in videogame style micropayments. The writing was pretty much on the wall quite a ways back. The only part that surprised me was the OGL thing. That was just foolish, and shows that their leadership is even more out of touch with their customer base - and resistant to listening to the sane voices in their ranks - than I expected.

For me, the important thing to come out of this is the realization that Hasbro thinks they can challenge the existing OGL. Given that, it is best for third party producers who feel the need to use a license with their products to move to another type of license that isn't controlled or produced by a single company.

None of this will affect my spending habits because I rarely buy any of their products. The people I know personally (not just online) who sell rpg-related products either produce system-generic ones, wholly original stuff, or products designed for systems with no ties to D&D at all.
 
I’m one of those people in a dilemma, because I’m 2.5 years into one of the most fun campaigns I’ve ever with what is my dream group that I hand picked to put together. We use 5E and the full suite of DnDBeyond tools, and play over Discord (as we’re too scattered to get together regularly).

I don’t want to give WotC any more money, but I’m also worried about breaking something in the campaign and losing what is my absolute favourite gaming experience. I look forward to it every week.

On a related note, I’ve been dreading the changes they’ve suggested for One D&D because they all suck and I’m worried they will replace the current 5E material on Beyond and ruin it for us.

For me, it’s not about forgiveness. I don’t “forgive” companies because I never trust them in the first place. And I don’t particularly want to give them any of my money, but changing systems and giving up the ease of using Beyond is something I’m hesitant to do.

This Sunday we’ll discuss our options and see what the general consensus is. I may end up just building html pages that replicate the Beyond character sheets and moving everything off the platform. But I expect we’ll continue this game in 5E regardless. As the DM, I’m the only one who has spent any money on it, using campaign sharing to give the content to my players. So it might not change much, except when we’re leveling up.
 
TristramEvans said:
OK, so say Hasbro execs pull their heads out of their asses and

one) say they will not try to deauthorize or revoke the OGL
and
two) as a show of good faith, release a revised OGL 1.1a that adds the term "irrevocable" to the terms

Would you forgive them for the last month of tomfuckery? Would that be enough to let bygnes be bygones?

If not is there anything specifically they would need to do for that to happen?
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Not a question I was expecting. Honestly? I just don't care anymore. I mean, I care about the people the changes will hurt, and I was looking forward to Planescape, but nope, just don't much care for WOTC or D&D anymore even before this and it sort of cemented this as the last nail in the coffin for me. That may change but for now? No.
 
Some good things have come out of all this. Content creators will be more forceful in standing up for their rights. Also, players and GMs will be more willing to look outside D&D, considering new or obscure systems they wouldn't have otherwise looked at. Rather than concentrating market share, this is just going to dilute it and that is a good thing.
 
I don't think I've ever forgiven anyone for anything*, so... no? :quiet:

* Anything they did with intent. I mean, I forgave a baby for puking on me once.
 
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This is the kind of behaviour you get from companies that grew too big and attracted financial parasites. The kind that aren't interested in generating revenue by creating value for customers. They want to pump up the profits now at the expense of long-term viability so they can dump stock for a ludicrous personal gain and move on to the next plump victim.

You might just as well ask if we'll forgive a corpse for twitching as it stiffens.
 
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