Best historical settings?

[Lofgeornost]

So uh, speaking of the medieval world in Central and Northern Europe, here's something I bet you didn't know about. Came up in a discussion somewhere else so I thought I'd share here. People tend to think of the medieval world as very backward and repressed, but it was actually less so than today in many respects, and certainly much less than say, Victorian England or the US in the 19th or early 20thC. In German speaking and Nordic areas in the 15th, they used to have a system wherein young people past their adolescence were allowed overnight visits with one another, in specially modified beds which sometimes had a barrier down the middle. The girl could pick who she wanted to visit her, if anyone. The rule was either there was a barrier and the boy was supposed to stay on one side of it, or one of the two had to stay under the covers. Basically the real rule was that no pregnancy should result, and the two kids were thoroughly briefed on what that meant. This continued right into the early 20th Century in Sweden, which is why we have photos of it. (this is an auto translate from Swedish Wikipedia) https://sv-m-wikipedia-org.translat...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

This was known as 'bundling' in the colonial U.S.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

This was known as 'bundling' in the colonial U.S.

That's interesting, i didn't know it was done here. Specific regions (Norse immigrants?) or all over?

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Ah... Dutch ... and the Amish do it hahahah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_(tradition)

 

[Silverlion]

Ah... Dutch ... and the Amish do it hahahah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_(tradition)

Oh yeah, and somehow it still results in pregnancies. *LOL* So very effective

 

[AsenRG]

Oh yeah, and somehow it still results in pregnancies. *LOL* So very effective

...well, we just call it "hooking" today!

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Neat source just came online recently, (or anyway, I just found out it was available). A nicely illustrated, 16th Century Swiss Chronicle. Plenty of wild action and drama in the images, you can get a lot of interesting ideas here. There is highway robbery, intense street fighting, small scale naval war and amphibious attacks, sieges, depictions of several castles and fortified towns, battles, raids, hunting, executions, assassinations, judicial combat, a public vote, portraits of knights and princes, people drinking in pubs, in the bath, all kinds of stuff. Also the first known depiction of the William Tell legend.






This is the kind of stuff ChatGPT isn't going to get right...

You can look through that chronicle here if you are interested https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/thumbs/kba/0016-1

 

[AsenRG]

Neat source just came online recently, (or anyway, I just found out it was available). A nicely illustrated, 16th Century Swiss Chronicle. Plenty of wild action and drama in the images, you can get a lot of interesting ideas here. There is highway robbery, intense street fighting, small scale naval war and amphibious attacks, sieges, depictions of several castles and fortified towns, battles, raids, hunting, executions, assassinations, judicial combat, a public vote, portraits of knights and princes, people drinking in pubs, in the bath, all kinds of stuff. Also the first known depiction of the William Tell legend.

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This is the kind of stuff ChatGPT isn't going to get right...

You can look through that chronicle here if you are interested https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/thumbs/kba/0016-1

I like how they're chasing the friars in the first picture!

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I like how they're chasing the friars in the first picture!

Yeah I'd like to try to translate that page and figure out what is going, on but it's later 16th Century so it's probably some kind of religious sectarian dispute unfortunately. Swiss Conferation struggled with that for a minute though they managed to keep it from tearing them apart.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Another tidbit from that chronicle, kind of unusual to see the schlachtschwert (the big two-handed swords) in the push of pike. This has been long attested but shows up pretty rarely in period art. Also interesting to see the halberds being used to strike back spike / beak first. I've had debates about this in the past (people claiming that that beak on the back wasn't used for armor-piercing in the way they seem to be using it here...)

 

[Lofgeornost]

I like how they're chasing the friars in the first picture!

Yeah I'd like to try to translate that page and figure out what is going, on but it's later 16th Century so it's probably some kind of religious sectarian dispute unfortunately. Swiss Conferation struggled with that for a minute though they managed to keep it from tearing them apart.

The caption that goes with the section reads ‘How the entire clergy was expelled from Zurich.’ That part of the chronicle seems to deal with the 13th century; a few pages on there is an account of the war between Zurich and the castle of Regensberg which took place in 1267, and somewhat after that is a picture of Rudolf I of Hapsburg’s coronation as King of the Romans, which happened in 1272.

My guess is that this has to do with the struggle between the papacy and Frederick II. Zurich and some other Swiss communities supported the emperor and were placed under Interdict c. 1245, when Frederick was excommunicated. Zurich kicked out the local Dominicans for preaching against the emperor and all clergy that honored the interdict.

So the chronicle’s images in this section are pretty anachronistic; they appear to reflect armor, clothing, etc. of the 16th century, when the text was composed, rather than the 13th century.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

The caption that goes with the section reads ‘How the entire clergy was expelled from Zurich.’ That part of the chronicle seems to deal with the 13th century; a few pages on there is an account of the war between Zurich and the castle of Regensberg which took place in 1267, and somewhat after that is a picture of Rudolf I of Hapsburg’s coronation as King of the Romans, which happened in 1272.

My guess is that this has to do with the struggle between the papacy and Frederick II. Zurich and some other Swiss communities supported the emperor and were placed under Interdict c. 1245, when Frederick was excommunicated. Zurich kicked out the local Dominicans for preaching against the emperor and all clergy that honored the interdict.

So the chronicle’s images in this section are pretty anachronistic; they appear to reflect armor, clothing, etc. of the 16th century, when the text was composed, rather than the 13th century.

It could be referencing a few different things, as there is kind of an ongoing theme in Zurich of clashes with the Church.

Zurich was ruled by a convent from the 11th Century, the convent (the Fraumünster) and it's abbess had imperial immediacy too since the early 13th (making her the equivalent of a major prince). That convent was overthrown during a guild uprising in the 14th century - 1336, led by a guy named Rudolf Brun.

The next major disruption involving that abbey was in 1524 when the town went Protestant under the famous / infamous religious figure Zwingli, (who had been elected as the Leutpriestertum ... 'people's priest' a few year earlier) and that started a series of controversies with the anabaptists and the Catholics simultaneously, it gets a bit messy.

The illustration might represent the incidents in the 16th Century but the text could also refer to the earlier ones, (or it could be an anacronistic image depicting 13th Century strife in 16th Century kit and costumes, which would also be normal). I'd have to look into it to know more. Which is doable, because we have the book available online, though that would be a bit deeper dive...

By the way, there is really nice map of 16th Century Zurich here with tons of detail if you want some inspiration on what a real late medieval / Early Modern city looks like. You can see details like individual ships and boats on the river, all the fortifications and river controls, street names etc. you can even see the time shown on the clock on one of the defensive towers.

 

[AsenRG]

Yeah I'd like to try to translate that page and figure out what is going, on but it's later 16th Century so it's probably some kind of religious sectarian dispute unfortunately. Swiss Conferation struggled with that for a minute though they managed to keep it from tearing them apart.

...unfortunately, me lad? Those friars totally had it coming!

/IC impersonation

 

[Fenris-77]

You know, I've been thinking about this for a while, but my most honest answer to this question is actually WHFRP. Medieval and renaissance Germany wasn't something I knew anything about before playing it, and it took me some actual university level study to appreciate that it's actually quite well researched (setting aside the obvious fantasy bits).

 

[SJB]

You know, I've been thinking about this for a while, but my most honest answer to this question is actually WHFRP. Medieval and renaissance Germany wasn't something I knew anything about before playing it, and it took me some actual university level study to appreciate that it's actually quite well researched (setting aside the obvious fantasy bits).

I often end up with the same thought; the WHFRP crew were the products of elite British universities where one might pick up this kind of stuff in the early 1980s.

 

[Fenris-77]

I often end up with the same thought; the WHFRP crew were the products of elite British universities where one might pick up this kind of stuff in the early 1980s.

It's not like medieval Germany wasn't there, but everything up until then fantasy-wise tended to be very medieval England/Tolkein. WHFRP was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Zebraman]

Constantinople around the 1050s with Harald Hardrada as head of Varangian Guard was pretty wild. And this leads on to the Norman Conquest. I ran a Pendragon campaign set in this period 1047-1058 roughly. Didn't quite get to Battle of Hastings!

 

[TJS]

It's not like medieval Germany wasn't there, but everything up until then fantasy-wise tended to be very medieval England/Tolkein. WHFRP was a breath of fresh air.

I've always thought that it's not just the German element but also the fact that it was written by people who had an obvious interest and background in social history.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

The German / Central European elements really add a lot, as it's a completely different type of story from medieval England. A lot more complex, since there isn't a strong King, but rather dozens of princes, competing families, and Free Cities and so on, and frankly, also more technologically and culturally advanced at that time. Italy or Flanders even more so. There is also the fact that the "German" influence (and people) extend into the regions populated by other folks, so you can add Slavic, Nordic, Magyar, Italian, French speaking and so on to the whole mix for more nuance.

So I think it makes for a much more interesting background than the standard generic feudal kingdom kind of set up. More conducive to adventuring.

That said, I think they really only scratched the surface of the potential, but I'm biased... ;)

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

And on top of all that, the (in the real world) mostly aspirational concept of the Emperor, which Warhammer in general tended to focus on a lot...

 

[Lofgeornost]

It could be referencing a few different things, as there is kind of an ongoing theme in Zurich of clashes with the Church.

Zurich was ruled by a convent from the 11th Century, the convent (the Fraumünster) and it's abbess had imperial immediacy too since the early 13th (making her the equivalent of a major prince). That convent was overthrown during a guild uprising in the 14th century - 1336, led by a guy named Rudolf Brun.

The next major disruption involving that abbey was in 1524 when the town went Protestant under the famous / infamous religious figure Zwingli, (who had been elected as the Leutpriestertum ... 'people's priest' a few year earlier) and that started a series of controversies with the anabaptists and the Catholics simultaneously, it gets a bit messy.

The illustration might represent the incidents in the 16th Century but the text could also refer to the earlier ones, (or it could be an anacronistic image depicting 13th Century strife in 16th Century kit and costumes, which would also be normal). I'd have to look into it to know more. Which is doable, because we have the book available online, though that would be a bit deeper dive...

I’m fairly sure it deals with the interdict c. 1245 and reactions to it in Zurich. This part of the illustrated chronicle is largely taken word-for-word from Heinrich Brennwald’s Schweitzerchronik, an early 16th-century text. It was printed in two volumes in 1908-10; this part is in volume 1, pp. 121-22. It’s a lot easier to read than the manuscript, though I’ll admit the Swiss spellings give me some trouble. But it certainly seems to me to be referring to events of Frederick II’s reign and his struggle with Pope Innocent IV. The Google Books version is here.

 

[SJB]

The German / Central European elements really add a lot, as it's a completely different type of story from medieval England. A lot more complex, since there isn't a strong King, but rather dozens of princes, competing families, and Free Cities and so on, and frankly, also more technologically and culturally advanced at that time. Italy or Flanders even more so. There is also the fact that the "German" influence (and people) extend into the regions populated by other folks, so you can add Slavic, Nordic, Magyar, Italian, French speaking and so on to the whole mix for more nuance.

So I think it makes for a much more interesting background than the standard generic feudal kingdom kind of set up. More conducive to adventuring.

That said, I think they really only scratched the surface of the potential, but I'm biased... ;)

Mind you historic England is a lot more interesting than the “standard generic feudal kingdom” of legend. Assuming that the English monarchy was strong is a recipe for confusion. It tells us more about recent times that most people have heard of William Tell but few know of Willekin of the Weald.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I’m fairly sure it deals with the interdict c. 1245 and reactions to it in Zurich. This part of the illustrated chronicle is largely taken word-for-word from Heinrich Brennwald’s Schweitzerchronik, an early 16th-century text. It was printed in two volumes in 1908-10; this part is in volume 1, pp. 121-22. It’s a lot easier to read than the manuscript, though I’ll admit the Swiss spellings give me some trouble. But it certainly seems to me to be referring to events of Frederick II’s reign and his struggle with Pope Innocent IV. The Google Books version is here.

That would definitely make sense too, as regions as well as individual towns were routinely being put under interdict, and those guys look like Dominicans who often sided with the Church in these matters (not all of the Religious Orders did). I have some Swiss friends who I can get to read that page, I'll check with them.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

Mind you historic England is a lot more interesting than the “standard generic feudal kingdom” of legend. Assuming that the English monarchy was strong is a recipe for confusion. It tells us more about recent times that most people have heard of William Tell but few know of Willekin of the Weald.

Yes you are right in that there are two factors at play there, 1) England was much more of an 'attempted kingdom' than an actual Kingdom for most of the medieval period, and 2) the kind of Victorian shorthand (rather orderly and boring Feudal monarchy) more or less obscures the messier and somewhat more interesting historical realities.

Of course there were uprisings and revolts, piracy and banditry, endless regional wars as England tried to assert dominance over Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, and almost continuous brutal civil wars among the princely families who endlessly vie for the monarchy, the constant bloody feudal struggles with the French and so on.

But it is also true that most of the power struggle in England was going on at the top. There were uprisings and rebellions among commoners but they were basically all crushed. England was slow to develop a lot of the technologies and cultural innovations which were sweeping across (and disrupting) much of Continental Europe in the later medieval peiord, and the whole system was much more hierarchical. You didn't really have Free Cities, autonomous enclaves, weird theocratic mini-states, rogue heretic kingdoms, confederations and feral tribal zones, dangerous pirate guilds, powerful trading cartels, mighty urban maritime republics etc. In Central Europe (or say, Italy) you have these same kind of aristocratic dramas that you see in England as well but also all this other stuff too.

England also didn't have so many paper mills and the printing press came late so most of what we know from England in that time period comes from royal or Church chronicles which see the world from the point of view of the peers of the realm, bishops and the monarchs, not so much everyone else in the middling ranks of society. You don't have the explosion of art and technology or the Renaissance in England (which, in Italy and Central Europe, came from among these middling ranks) until really Tudor times. That is where England starts to experience glory and where the drama there becomes so much more interesting, even if it is closer to a true centralized kingdom... partly because they have become a major naval power and are exploring the seven seas. And that is understandably where English history tends to focus.

 

[Lofgeornost]

I'll have to admit that I wouldn't call WFRP's Old World a historical setting. It's inspired by history, but highly fictionalized, and somewhat inconsistent in period--sometimes it seems more late-15th-century, sometimes more 17th-century. It is to a historical setting what Guy Gavriel Kay's novels are to historical novels.

 

[JAMUMU]

For a few years in the late 70s/early 80s there were a pair of detectives in Glasgow colloquially called "Starsky & Hutch" as they drove around town in a flashy Capri, one of them wore driving gloves, the other had blonde hair and a tache, and they were dressed in the finest rayon and nylon. This is objectively the best historical setting, though I urge you guys to continue with your fascinating discussions of what might the closest runner-up.

 

[SJB]

For a few years in the late 70s/early 80s there were a pair of detectives in Glasgow colloquially called "Starsky & Hutch" as they drove around town in a flashy Capri, one of them wore driving gloves, the other had blonde hair and a tache, and they were dressed in the finest rayon and nylon. This is objectively the best historical setting, though I urge you guys to continue with your fascinating discussions of what might the closest runner-up.

Please tell me they drove up Gardner Street like Taggart.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

For a few years in the late 70s/early 80s there were a pair of detectives in Glasgow colloquially called "Starsky & Hutch" as they drove around town in a flashy Capri, one of them wore driving gloves, the other had blonde hair and a tache, and they were dressed in the finest rayon and nylon. This is objectively the best historical setting, though I urge you guys to continue with your fascinating discussions of what might the closest runner-up.

Agree 100%

 

[SmallbutVicious]

You know, I've been thinking about this for a while, but my most honest answer to this question is actually WHFRP. Medieval and renaissance Germany wasn't something I knew anything about before playing it, and it took me some actual university level study to appreciate that it's actually quite well researched (setting aside the obvious fantasy bits).

To follow on to what SJB said, I don't think they did any detailed research specifically for the game, but Graeme Davis, who was an important early architect of the Warhammer World, had studied the topic as part of his university degree. Some of that just shows through in his setting design.

 

[Lofgeornost]

The discussion of the Swiss Chronicle slightly upthread got me thinking about 15th-century Switzerland (and surrounding Alpine areas) as a possible RPG setting. It has a lot going for it:

• Lots of small polities, so room for interstate intrigue--or running to another jurisdiction after you've gotten into trouble where you are.
• A crossroads region, so people from all over Europe might show up there.
• Interesting and difficult terrain for 'wilderness' adventures--mountains mean an area can be rather remote, in effect, although in miles it is quite close to settled regions. Also a mixture of quite rural areas with small cities.
• Lots of vaguely-contemporary folklore and ideas about magic that can be exploited for the game.

There aren't any really large cities there, of course, but there are some not very far away--Milan and Venice, to name only two.

One issue, for English-speaking gamers, is that there is not a great deal available in our language that gives detailed information about the history of the region in this period. No doubt the situation is much better for German-speakers.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

The same is all kind of true for Central Europe more generally. I have a resource (in English) which somewhat demystifies the region and quantifies various elements within it so as to be more accessible. Kind of an encyclopedia for late medieval Central Europe. Be glad to send you a PDF copy if you would like to have a look at it. The Osprey book on the Swiss (from back in the 80s) isn't a bad short introduction.

There are also a lot of interesting articles in an academic blog I recently did some writing on, including by several Swiss scholars. You can glean interesting ideas in there. Most of the articles are in English, some in French or German.

About

Martial Culture in Medieval Town is a research project of the University of Bern (2018-2022), supported by the Swiss National Science Foundation. It fits between the “new military history” and the urban history, in the late medieval and pre-modern period, treating the space represented by the...

martcult.hypotheses.org

 

[WillPhillips]

The discussion of the Swiss Chronicle slightly upthread got me thinking about 15th-century Switzerland (and surrounding Alpine areas) as a possible RPG setting. It has a lot going for it:

• Lots of small polities, so room for interstate intrigue--or running to another jurisdiction after you've gotten into trouble where you are.
• A crossroads region, so people from all over Europe might show up there.
• Interesting and difficult terrain for 'wilderness' adventures--mountains mean an area can be rather remote, in effect, although in miles it is quite close to settled regions. Also a mixture of quite rural areas with small cities.
• Lots of vaguely-contemporary folklore and ideas about magic that can be exploited for the game.

There aren't any really large cities there, of course, but there are some not very far away--Milan and Venice, to name only two.

One issue, for English-speaking gamers, is that there is not a great deal available in our language that gives detailed information about the history of the region in this period. No doubt the situation is much better for German-speakers.

I agree! I ran a short lived-campaign set in the bordering Tyrol of Ferdinand II's era, so c. 1570s, for a now-back-burner historical RPG I was developing. Lots of interesting opportunities in the region, for sure.

Campaign Introduction - Will's Tabletop

As I develop my d20/OSR-inspired rules, I'm also looking at both the campaign premise and setting. Though my primary historical focus is on the Renaissance Netherlands, I don't want that to be the campaign setting for two reasons: To keep my players (most of whom will be my…

tabletop.willphillips.org

Hounds of Tyrol Campaign Maps - Will's Tabletop

Tyrol is a region in the Central Alps which, though modernly split between Austria and Italy, was historically firmly under the control of the Austrian Habsburgs. The campaign will take place in its "Oberland" in a West Marches style, with PCs generally basing out of Innsbruck, the primary city in…

tabletop.willphillips.org

 

[GianniVacca]

I have a resource (in English) which somewhat demystifies the region and quantifies various elements within it so as to be more accessible. Kind of an encyclopedia for late medieval Central Europe. Be glad to send you a PDF copy if you would like to have a look at it.

I would like to receive a copy.

 

[GianniVacca]

Oh and another long term 'stretch' goal is to do a big setting book on early 16th Century Indian Ocean and East Indies, focusing on the Portuguese perspective. Probably some time after the middle of next year. I've been collecting data for that for about 2 years now and I have a good library of excellent sources together. This will include Japanese (Samurai), Ming dynasty Chinese, Wagu Pirates, Ethiopians, Ottomans, Mamluks, Hindus, Thai, Cambodians, various tribes of Indonesians and Malay, and assorted Europeans who tagged along with the Portuguese like Venetians, Germans, Irish, etc.

Eventually that will expand to include Spanish, Filipino, French, Dutch, English and so on. But that's a stretch-stretch goal...

I have run a Monsters & Magic campign set in that time period and region. The Portuguese were the 'bad guys' though.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I would like to receive a copy.

Pm sent

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I agree! I ran a short lived-campaign set in the bordering Tyrol of Ferdinand II's era, so c. 1570s, for a now-back-burner historical RPG I was developing. Lots of interesting opportunities in the region, for sure.

Campaign Introduction - Will's Tabletop

As I develop my d20/OSR-inspired rules, I'm also looking at both the campaign premise and setting. Though my primary historical focus is on the Renaissance Netherlands, I don't want that to be the campaign setting for two reasons: To keep my players (most of whom will be my…

tabletop.willphillips.org

Hounds of Tyrol Campaign Maps - Will's Tabletop

Tyrol is a region in the Central Alps which, though modernly split between Austria and Italy, was historically firmly under the control of the Austrian Habsburgs. The campaign will take place in its "Oberland" in a West Marches style, with PCs generally basing out of Innsbruck, the primary city in…

tabletop.willphillips.org

This looks really interesting. I bet it would run well with Stara Szkola!

 

[Lofgeornost]

The same is all kind of true for Central Europe more generally. I have a resource (in English) which somewhat demystifies the region and quantifies various elements within it so as to be more accessible. Kind of an encyclopedia for late medieval Central Europe. Be glad to send you a PDF copy if you would like to have a look at it. The Osprey book on the Swiss (from back in the 80s) isn't a bad short introduction.

I think I have that Osprey book packed away in a box somewhere, and of course there are general histories of Switzerland available in English. But I'd be quite interested in your encyclopedia of Late Medieval Central Europe, if you'd be willing to share it.

I agree! I ran a short lived-campaign set in the bordering Tyrol of Ferdinand II's era, so c. 1570s, for a now-back-burner historical RPG I was developing. Lots of interesting opportunities in the region, for sure.

That looks great. The banner with the Jacob Binck drawing is especially neat. I hope you get back to the ruleset and campaign sometime.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I think I have that Osprey book packed away in a box somewhere, and of course there are general histories of Switzerland available in English. But I'd be quite interested in your encyclopedia of Late Medieval Central Europe, if you'd be willing to share it.

It's focused on the Baltic, specifically Prussia during the middle of the 13 years war, but as i worked on it over about ten years, I came to realize I had to basically map out almost the entirety of the Central European system in order for it to make any sense. All the (quite militarily and economically prominent) towns in Prussia and Livonia etc. were based on the HRE model, to the point that they used copies of town charters from places like Lübeck and Magdeburg. And the populations - journeymen, merchants, mercenaries, pilgrims, circulated between all these places. The nobles and mercenary captains also came largely from Central Europe: HRE, Poland, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, Austria. Some from as far as the British Isles, Flanders, and Italy but I haven't learned enough to tackle Renaissance Italy yet!

PM me with your email and I will send a PDF copy.

That looks great. The banner with the Jacob Binck drawing is especially neat. I hope you get back to the ruleset and campaign sometime.

Me too, we need more historical RPGs!

 

[GianniVacca]

It's focused on the Baltic, specifically Prussia during the middle of the 13 years war, but as i worked on it over about ten years, I came to realize I had to basically map out almost the entirety of the Central European system in order for it to make any sense. All the (quite militarily and economically prominent) towns in Prussia and Livonia etc. were based on the HRE model, to the point that they used copies of town charters from places like Lübeck and Magdeburg. And the populations - journeymen, merchants, mercenaries, pilgrims, circulated between all these places. The nobles and mercenary captains also came largely from Central Europe: HRE, Poland, Bohemia, Moravia, Hungary, Austria. Some from as far as the British Isles, Flanders, and Italy but I haven't learned enough to tackle Renaissance Italy yet!

PM me with your email and I will send a PDF copy.



Me too, we need more historical RPGs!

I've recently read a French scholarly book about the history of Central Europe (can't remember the title, and I've left the book at my parents' place); the author wrote that not only were all central European cities based on the HRE model, but their inhabitants also came from German-speaking lands. The kings of Bohemia, Hungary and Poland would attract them by granting these newly founded cities lots of privileges.
She wrote that until the nationalistic movements of the 19th centuries, the cities were still mostly German-speaking (except in Bohemia where it was 50-50). Pest, for instance, was almost 100% German-speaking and when its inhabitants switched to Hungarian out of patriotism, they had to learn the language. She based her data on the programmes of the theatres, by looking at the language of the plays that were shown.

 

[AsenRG]

I've recently read a French scholarly book about the history of Central Europe (can't remember the title, and I've left the book at my parents' place); the author wrote that not only were all central European cities based on the HRE model, but their inhabitants also came from German-speaking lands. The kings of Bohemia, Hungary and Poland would attract them by granting these newly founded cities lots of privileges.
She wrote that until the nationalistic movements of the 19th centuries, the cities were still mostly German-speaking (except in Bohemia where it was 50-50). Pest, for instance, was almost 100% German-speaking and when its inhabitants switched to Hungarian out of patriotism, they had to learn the language. She based her data on the programmes of the theatres, by looking at the language of the plays that were shown.

Funny enough, I remember reading a few books that would have disagreed, putting it mildly.

 

[Peter Von Danzig]

I've recently read a French scholarly book about the history of Central Europe (can't remember the title, and I've left the book at my parents' place); the author wrote that not only were all central European cities based on the HRE model, but their inhabitants also came from German-speaking lands. The kings of Bohemia, Hungary and Poland would attract them by granting these newly founded cities lots of privileges.
She wrote that until the nationalistic movements of the 19th centuries, the cities were still mostly German-speaking (except in Bohemia where it was 50-50). Pest, for instance, was almost 100% German-speaking and when its inhabitants switched to Hungarian out of patriotism, they had to learn the language. She based her data on the programmes of the theatres, by looking at the language of the plays that were shown.

Yes, it's an oversimplification but true in a sense.

This is how I would put it -

1) The German speaking people, maybe after the Flemish, were pioneers of urbanization north of the Alps. In particular in the Rhineland and Swabia / Franconia zone, and the emerging Hanse cities along the northern coast. (There were also large regions of the HRE which were not urbanized, such as much of Hesse and Thuringia).
2) These same German speaking people (and the Flemish) made an industry out of founding modernized towns with stone buildings and stone walls. There was a type of job called a "Lokator" who specialized in doing this. These places were sometimes 'Located' at the behest of regional warlords (one famous case being Vilnius in Lithuania), but sometimes more organically by local clusters of merchants. The Lokator would survey the town for drainage, for sanitation, for the operation of water or wind mills, for water supply, for trade, and maybe most importantly, for defense.

This English language Wiki isn't very good but if gives you the very rough idea of what a 'Lokator" is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokator

3) The new towns, or old towns that had been re-surveyed, were chartered under special legal contracts copied from other, usually German cities, which gave them at least a degree, sometimes more than a degree, of self rule.

German town law - Wikipedia

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They tended toward independence or 'Free City' status, which was deemed necessary for them to thrive, make money, and be of any use to regional princes. It's a paradox for the prince, but it was understood by the 12th century or so, everyone could see the way the Italian cities were thriving after they overthrew the Emperor. The princely rulers of North / Central Europe wanted a taste of that, not necessarily to contend with true city-states ala Florence or Venice, but they needed the money and technology that came with a self-ruled city. So they tried to give a degree of freedom but not complete autonomy. These towns however wanted to be autonomous, usually, and would push for more and more rights and freedoms. Things like the right to hold their own courts, to use their own weights and measures, to have their own armed militias, and to assert their own justice against (i.e. kill) anyone who harmed their citizens, including nobles. They could become quite assertive especially once they built stone walls and even more so if they joined a big league of cities like the Hanse, Rhennish League, Swabian League, or the Swiss Confederation, one of the smaller regional ones like Decapole, Pentapolitana, Prussian Confederation, or Lusatian League etc. Towns like Lübeck or Bern were basically fully autonomous and routinely disregarded the wishes of, and went to war against, regional princes and kings or even the Emperor or the Grand Master of the Teutonic Order.
4) As a result law and official business was done in German, usually one of the regional German trade languages like High German or Low German, and not just in the local dialect, (though many towns also developed their own unique dialects, some of which are still around today). Just like in the Kingdom of England, for centuries after the Norman conquest, law and business was done in French. But just as in the case of England, this didn't necessarily mean that the people there were French or had any loyalty to France, it didn't necessarily mean that the people in these cities were all or even mostly German (I'll circle back to that in a second)
5) This urbanization started happening first within the Holy Roman Empire, in lands conquered from or merged with Wendish (Slavic) people, like in Mecklenburg and Pomerania. It spread further east, including to places which already had some degree of urbanization (like Bohemia) and others where they did not (like Transylvania or Livonia). German scholars call this the Ostiedlung "East migration". More often than not, at least during the medieval period, the "German" towns were closely aligned with the local powers and peoples. Populations were typically bilingual.

Ostsiedlung - Wikipedia

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6) But, and this is an important detail, birth rates in the towns were not as high as in the countryside, and did not usually meet replacement rates. It was usually like around 3.8 or something, with infant / child mortality taking out about half before they came of age (birth rates in the rural areas could be double this). So they had to bring in people from the countryside. Town officials also made deals with people in the rural areas. To what extent this happened varied enormously, but over time, a town in Poland became more and more Polish, a town in Hungary became more and more Magyar, at least in terms of genetics.
7) At the same time, the towns themselves had their own urban culture and in a way, almost had their own unique ethnicity distinct from the countryside, almost everywhere they were including deep inside Germany or Flanders or Bohemia. The town culture was it's own thing, a different world. But people circulated from town to town - journeymen artisans, merchants, mercenaries or crusaders, professionals and scholars, ship captains and mariners, scholars and students, many of these types tended to stay in the urban spaces but all traveled widely. Quite a few joined in the town population. The towns also accepted immigrants from abroad. For example, towns in what is now northern Poland had substantial immigrant communities from England and Scotland, from Hungary, from Flanders and Holland.
8) So ultimately, you had towns which did continue to speak German, at least among the ruling strata, for centuries, but to some extent or another had become closely linked with the people of the surrounding region. This varied by town. In some places there was relatively little mixing, for example in Estonia or Transylvania. In some places there was a lot, like Stockholm or Krakow.

But of course, in the 19th and 20th Century when politics started taking on an increasingly nasty ethnic tinge within Europe, people in these towns, and /or their rulers (as many of them lost their autonomy by the 18th Century) could more or less decide which side they wanted to be on, and some did this very cynically. And sometimes that was a tragic mistake over the long run.

In earlier eras though, the opposite was sometimes true. For example in the mid-15th Century, the more or less / mostly German speaking cities of Prussia, led by Danzig / Gdansk went to war against the Teutonic Order and joined in an alliance with Poland, whose rule they preferred, because the Polish gave them more autonomy.

Thirteen Years' War (1454–1466) - Wikipedia

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People like Nicolaus Copernicus who was probably multi-lingual but mostly a German speaker, grew up in these towns but politically were firmly allied with Poland rather than the Teutonic Knights Crusader state in the continuing hostilities in that region.