Broos, Beastmen, Goatmen etc

[Toadmaster]

Runequest has Broos, Warhammer and Warcraft have Beastmen, Diablo has Goatmen. I'm just wondering is there an original source for this concept (mythology?), or do they all trace the basic idea to RQs Broos. I am aware of the Warhammer to RQ ties, and Warhammer to Warcraft, which then is a short jump to Diablo. Just curious if there is more to the idea. I am aware of Satyrs, Minotaurs etc, but those are fairly distinct from Broos / Beastmen.

 

[CaoCao]

Baphomet - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Devil - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[PolarBlues]

The middle ages were full of such things.

Cynocephaly (Dog-headed people)

 

[Dr Jack]

The Egyptians were portraying animal headed gods thousands of years before that. And the Greeks had plenty of beast headed myths.

But this dude:

Is over 35,000 years old, so I think we can safely say people have been inventing people with animal heads for as long as people have been people.

 

[Silverlion]

The imagery of the devil (and thus Baphomet) comes from Satyr originally, so it in part goes back to that.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, humans have been doing animal mashups in their myths and art for about as long as they've been doing them.

 

[JAMUMU]

Yeah, humans have been doing animal mashups in their myths and art for about as long as they've been doing them.

After the Great Beast Wars all we had left were the pictures and paintings and statues. I don't want to come across as revisionist, but we humans maybe went a wee bit too hard and far against those we once shared the Earth with.

 

[Raleel]

I would contend that OP is looking for the origin of a goat headed man as an evil entity, and not so much about the rest of the animal headed beings.

so, where did runequest get it? Did they see Baphommet and decide that makes a great monster?

edit: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/1453-the-broo/ this thread seems to think it was invented there

 

[JAMUMU]

I would contend that OP is looking for the origin of a goat headed man as an evil entity, and not so much about the rest of the animal headed beings.

so, where did runequest get it? Did they see Baphommet and decide that makes a great monster?

edit: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/1453-the-broo/ this thread seems to think it was invented there

Wouldn't that honour go to the Black Man of the Witches? Goat-headed, evil, wants you to kiss his arsehole before the big witch orgy can get started? I'm no rpg historicist but I'm pretty sure the witch hunts predate RQ, though I might be wrong.

 

[Fenris-77]

I would contend that OP is looking for the origin of a goat headed man as an evil entity, and not so much about the rest of the animal headed beings.

so, where did runequest get it? Did they see Baphommet and decide that makes a great monster?

edit: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/1453-the-broo/ this thread seems to think it was invented there

I would suggest that 'invented' is a strong word, but I think we can paint a general picture that shows where this particular thing develops. The place to start is the fact that it is wired deep into our human brains to associate certain attributes with certain animals - owl are wise, foxes are clever, and goats are lustful and violent. If we pick a selection of goat adjacent elements from mythology this basic notion is borne out. We have the Satyr from Greek myth, Cernunnos and his wild hunt from Celtic myth, and the devil as goat from medieval Christian writings. In all three cases the connection between goat form or goat parts and rapacious and violent behavior is pretty clear. Owl men or Fox men simply wouldn't get read the same way.

 

[BMonroe]

A few thoughts:

In Glorantha/RQ, there was the Horned Man, aka the Father of Shamans. Depicted as a guy with horns, right? He was meant to be the positive aspects of masculinity: strong, wise, caring, nurturing, a healer, community leader, etc..

The Broos (who were also guys with horns) were the opposite of this. All the most negative traits associated with masculinity: cruel, ignorant, feral, brutal. They spread disease and abandoned their children. Rotten guys.

They were specifically created to be the polar opposites of the Horned Man.

 

[Toadmaster]

Raleel basically has where I was going with this. Not so much that I care who was first, more of where can I go for more material to develop my own variation.

I was aware of the devil / demon connection with the goat, and some of the animal headed deities but kind of dismissed them since I'm looking at a beastman people vs individuals, but that may have been a mistake and is certainly worth diving into for ideas. Deities have worshipers, and even if they were humans taking their cues from the beast form, that is a short hop to they are beast people. Of course there is also a long standing tradition of lycanthropes, again a tangent, but worth a look. Various cryptids bigfoot, Chupacabra, Skinwalkers etc would be another thought.

Goat head is sort of the traditional broo / beastman but I'm not fixated on that specifically, animal / human hybrids with a foul disposition and proclivity to debauchery is quite adequate as a point to mine for ideas. D&D Gnolls are another I can look into.

RQ being RQ there is already plenty there, just trying not to just do Broos with the serial numbers filed off. Personal use so I have no concerns with trademark / copyright issues, just want some originality (so if I can copy from mythology... .)

The middle ages were full of such things.

Cynocephaly (Dog-headed people)

This I had not come across. I'm familiar with the more common European faerie based mythology, and witches, vampires, were-people but don't recall seeing anything like the dog headed people above. Greek and Egyptian use sure, but outside of demons didn't know this was a thing in the middle ages.

 

[Raleel]

i'm pretty fond of broo/beastmen as a faceless adversary. It's a little more non-traditional than the pig men or lizard men or dog men or cat people. I can pretty much at will summon up their sound in my head from too many hours of diablo. honestly, i'm a bit surprised they aren't more popular.

 

[Torque2100]

Baphomet - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Devil - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 68470

This has long fascinated me since " rapey goat-headed man that lives in the woods" has remained such a popular mythological motif for so long. It even crops up in modern urban legends. I've wondered where it came from.

Something to remember about Satyrs. The OG Greek Satyrs didn't have goat features. They had Horse tails. It wasn't until Greek belief systems were exported to Italy that the Satyr and the Faun became conflated.

 

[Toadmaster]

i'm pretty fond of broo/beastmen as a faceless adversary. It's a little more non-traditional than the pig men or lizard men or dog men or cat people. I can pretty much at will summon up their sound in my head from too many hours of diablo. honestly, i'm a bit surprised they aren't more popular.

Yeah, I like them as an even less morally ambiguous adversary than orcs. The chaos / demonic taint and complete disregard for other creatures makes them fairly guilt free.

Orcs / goblins are often depicted as brutal and thuggish, but they are often not entirely beyond working with other cultures and even when depicted as a wholly evil race, it is not hard to "humanize" them making them a little more sympathetic. Plus orcs are just so over used in fantasy.

 

[JAMUMU]

There's also the Glaistig from Scottish legend.

 

[CRKrueger]

The Egyptians were portraying animal headed gods thousands of years before that. And the Greeks had plenty of beast headed myths.

But this dude:

Is over 35,000 years old, so I think we can safely say people have been inventing people with animal heads for as long as people have been people.

Bears just had to stand on their hind legs, because of course they did.

 

[BMonroe]

Bears just had to stand on their hind legs, because of course they did.

I mean, are you going to argue with a cave bear and tell it it can't walk upright?

 

[JAMUMU]

The evidence of provincial brain damage speaks for itself, M'lud.

 

[BMonroe]

 

[Toadmaster]

View attachment 68516

The evidence of provincial brain damage speaks for itself, M'lud.

The one that really surprises me is the spread for geese, 16 points more than any other animal, 50% larger than for an eagle and double the spread for a cobra. I'm also curious about the methodology if 1 in 6 Americans thinks they can beat a grizzly. I'll give some a pass for the elephant since many probably think of them just as a passive herbivore like a cow and have no idea what 6 tons of angry bull elephant looks like.

 

[Marktplatz]

Yeah, I like them as an even less morally ambiguous adversary than orcs. The chaos / demonic taint and complete disregard for other creatures makes them fairly guilt free.

Orcs / goblins are often depicted as brutal and thuggish, but they are often not entirely beyond working with other cultures and even when depicted as a wholly evil race, it is not hard to "humanize" them making them a little more sympathetic. Plus orcs are just so over used in fantasy.

They're more refreshing to see than orcs, and despite being a much older concept, they feel more unique to me. Their human traits also give them an "us, but monsters" angle that can be interesting thematically. You don't really get that with orcs or goblins where they're entirely non-human races.

 

[CRKrueger]

View attachment 68516

The evidence of provincial brain damage speaks for itself, M'lud.

I get off the bus after medium-sized dog.
Eagle - Flight birds can't take a lot of damage, but if it strikes first from the sky, good chance you're dead right there.
Large Dog - If it's trained, no way in hell, if not, maybe.
Chimpanzee - LOL, no.
King Cobra - I've seen snake handlers grab aggressive snakes, so I know it could be done, just not be me.
Kangaroo - Seen a dude send a wild Kangaroo packing with a punch to the head, so maybe.
Wolf - The problem with a Wolf is, you'd never get one, so no.
Crocodile - If you somehow could get a hold of their mouth, you could keep it closed, but then a big enough crocodile would just take you back in the water and roll you until you drowned, so no.
Gorilla - LOL, Hell no.
Lion - Nope
Elephant - Get the fuck out of here.
Grizzly Bear - It's possible to survive getting mauled by one if it loses interest, that would be about it.

 

[CRKrueger]

The one that really surprises me is the spread for geese, 16 points more than any other animal, 50% larger than for an eagle and double the spread for a cobra. I'm also curious about the methodology if 1 in 6 Americans thinks they can beat a grizzly. I'll give some a pass for the elephant since many probably think of them just as a passive herbivore like a cow and have no idea what 6 tons of angry bull elephant looks like.

Heh, I had a baby elephant shorter than me almost lift me over his head when I ran out of peanuts.

 

[Sharrow]

View attachment 68516

The evidence of provincial brain damage speaks for itself, M'lud.

The difference between 'wolf' and 'dog' amuses me.

 

[Sharrow]

Heh, I had a baby elephant shorter than me almost lift me over his head when I ran out of peanuts.

It was shaking you down for more?

 

[Dr Jack]

The one that really surprises me is the spread for geese, 16 points more than any other animal, 50% larger than for an eagle and double the spread for a cobra. I'm also curious about the methodology if 1 in 6 Americans thinks they can beat a grizzly. I'll give some a pass for the elephant since many probably think of them just as a passive herbivore like a cow and have no idea what 6 tons of angry bull elephant looks like.

I think it probably depends on how people interpret the question. Like is this a cage fight? Or are you facing off in the wild? In the latter case I'd rather face a lion than a large dog because lions are much more like to be intimidated into running away whether or not it would rip your face off in the cage fight.

 

[MoonHunter]

The difference between 'wolf' and 'dog' amuses me.

Actually as an owner of a wolf-dog (or creek-dog), they are very different. The wolf is much more timid and shy. However, when they need to, they can clear a 10 foot fence, actually have lateral motion on their legs allowing to climb (where dogs do not have lateral movement), the ability to rip open cans of food with the power of their jaws, and are two to three time stronger than a dog of the same size (70-140 pounds) judging by their pull or drag of things. While most dogs might be smart as a 1-2 year-old, wolves are as smart as a four-year-old and recognize that many words in English. (Wolf Dogs have the language skills of a five year old.) The wolf-dog figured out how to open a fridge. Then didn't ever do it again realizing she would get in SO MUCH TROUBLE. (A wolf is actually smarter than a dog hybrid.) We have bred dogs to have Williams syndrome and be less intelligent than their wild cousins. Even coyotes which are tiny/ smaller are smarter, stronger, and faster, than similarly sized dogs. Not being properly mentally nerfed by domestication AND being vastly stronger and faster than domesticated dogs is the reason why so many places have laws (and seriously restrictive laws) about wild dog pets and hybrid pets.

So yes. Big difference between the breeds.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

View attachment 68516

The evidence of provincial brain damage speaks for itself, M'lud.

 

[Jetstream]

The one that really surprises me is the spread for geese, 16 points more than any other animal, 50% larger than for an eagle and double the spread for a cobra. I'm also curious about the methodology if 1 in 6 Americans thinks they can beat a grizzly. I'll give some a pass for the elephant since many probably think of them just as a passive herbivore like a cow and have no idea what 6 tons of angry bull elephant looks like.

In fairness, 6% is more like… 1 in 15..? Ish.

6/100, 3/50, 1.5/25

 

[MoonHunter]

Like the Tourons of America's National Parks trying to pet "the big fluffy cows". then the wild Bison gets upset and mangles the human or their car, most Americans (or fairly urban people) have no interaction with real animals. They think they can deal with animals because they have seen "action characters" deal with them in the media. (Fictional or real) So without a clue, they would answer this survey.

 

[Bilharzia]

 

[Toadmaster]

In fairness, 6% is more like… 1 in 15..? Ish.

6/100, 3/50, 1.5/25

and that children is why you check your work.

I literally thought to myself 5% is 1 in 20, and the odds of rolling 1 on a d6 is something like 16%, then with d6 firmly on the brain I ignored that 16% and made the jump to 1 in 6...

 

[AsenRG]

Actually as an owner of a wolf-dog (or creek-dog), they are very different. The wolf is much more timid and shy. However, when they need to, they can clear a 10 foot fence, actually have lateral motion on their legs allowing to climb (where dogs do not have lateral movement), the ability to rip open cans of food with the power of their jaws, and are two to three time stronger than a dog of the same size (70-140 pounds) judging by their pull or drag of things. While most dogs might be smart as a 1-2 year-old, wolves are as smart as a four-year-old and recognize that many words in English. (Wolf Dogs have the language skills of a five year old.) The wolf-dog figured out how to open a fridge. Then didn't ever do it again realizing she would get in SO MUCH TROUBLE. (A wolf is actually smarter than a dog hybrid.) We have bred dogs to have Williams syndrome and be less intelligent than their wild cousins. Even coyotes which are tiny/ smaller are smarter, stronger, and faster, than similarly sized dogs. Not being properly mentally nerfed by domestication AND being vastly stronger and faster than domesticated dogs is the reason why so many places have laws (and seriously restrictive laws) about wild dog pets and hybrid pets.

So yes. Big difference between the breeds.

Thanks, man. The more you know...

foxes are clever, and goats are lustful and violent

Based on a true story, I suspect!

Also, yes, I'd prefer that kind of enemies if just humans aren't suitable for some reason. But then I like Traveller's aliens and don't consider them "furries".
Coupled with the "dying in chargen" meme, that game has a lot of complaints to file against the fandom...

The Egyptians were portraying animal headed gods thousands of years before that. And the Greeks had plenty of beast headed myths.

But this dude:

Is over 35,000 years old, so I think we can safely say people have been inventing people with animal heads for as long as people have been people.

"So, kids, furries aren't exactly a contemporary phenomenon"?

 

[Toadmaster]

Actually as an owner of a wolf-dog (or creek-dog), they are very different. The wolf is much more timid and shy. However, when they need to, they can clear a 10 foot fence, actually have lateral motion on their legs allowing to climb (where dogs do not have lateral movement), the ability to rip open cans of food with the power of their jaws, and are two to three time stronger than a dog of the same size (70-140 pounds) judging by their pull or drag of things. While most dogs might be smart as a 1-2 year-old, wolves are as smart as a four-year-old and recognize that many words in English. (Wolf Dogs have the language skills of a five year old.) The wolf-dog figured out how to open a fridge. Then didn't ever do it again realizing she would get in SO MUCH TROUBLE. (A wolf is actually smarter than a dog hybrid.) We have bred dogs to have Williams syndrome and be less intelligent than their wild cousins. Even coyotes which are tiny/ smaller are smarter, stronger, and faster, than similarly sized dogs. Not being properly mentally nerfed by domestication AND being vastly stronger and faster than domesticated dogs is the reason why so many places have laws (and seriously restrictive laws) about wild dog pets and hybrid pets.

So yes. Big difference between the breeds.

Also dogs, even feral dogs have some innate human connection so likely feel less scary to people. Wolves lack this.

There was a really interesting series on canines, and they demonstrated a test with a wolf and a dog. They put food in a dog proof container, there was a neutral human (not known to either) visible in the room observing. The wolf did not stop trying to get into the container, but the dog did after a short time, looked at the observer and by body language the dog was basically like "um, a little help dude."


I imagine the definition of large dog also varies wildly between different people. Many probably think something in the 70-80lb range (German Shepperd, Labrador etc) which for a large fit man (180lbs+), is potentially painful, but doable (far greater body weight and the opposable thumb are real advantages in this case).

Others may think of a truly large dog breed like a Mastiff which can push 200lbs, and of course smaller people will have less confidence even on the lower end of the "large dog" scale. As CRK points out training is also a factor, big difference between a feral large mutt, and a police dog.

Anybody familiar with wolves is not going to underestimate them, and those unfamiliar with them are likely to imagine something even more formidable than reality.

Of course the poll shows there is always "that guy". I mean the idea that somebody thinks they could beat an elephant, to me makes as much sense as saying they could beat up a dump truck.

I notice there was no category for Donkey or Hippo, two highly underrated dangerous animals.

 

[AsenRG]

Also dogs, even feral dogs have some innate human connection so likely feel less scary to people. Wolves lack this.

There was a really interesting series on canines, and they demonstrated a test with a wolf and a dog. They put food in a dog proof container, there was a neutral human (not known to either) visible in the room observing. The wolf did not stop trying to get into the container, but the dog did after a short time, looked at the observer and by body language the dog was basically like "um, a little help dude."


I imagine the definition of large dog also varies wildly between different people. Many probably think something in the 70-80lb range (German Shepperd, Labrador etc) which for a large fit man (180lbs+), is potentially painful, but doable (far greater body weight and the opposable thumb are real advantages in this case).

Others may think of a truly large dog breed like a Mastiff which can push 200lbs, and of course smaller people will have less confidence even on the lower end of the "large dog" scale. As CRK points out training is also a factor, big difference between a feral large mutt, and a police dog.

A mastiff isn't a dog IMO, it's a rhino in dog pelt...

(Yeah, serious difference there - and yes, I usually think German Shepherd when I'm thinking of large dogs).

Anybody familiar with wolves is not going to underestimate them, and those unfamiliar with them are likely to imagine something even more formidable than reality.

Quoted for truth!

Of course the poll shows there is always "that guy". I mean the idea that somebody thinks they could beat an elephant, to me makes as much sense as saying they could beat up a dump truck.

I wish I could only explain this by "that many people didn't notice the part 'unarmed' in the question". But then I remember the Darwin awards and shut up!

 

[Toadmaster]

I wish I could only explain this by "that many people didn't notice the part 'unarmed' in the question". But then I remember the Darwin awards and shut up!

You know up to lion, I can cut a little slack. I mean sure in my fantasy / nightmares I imagine I could get lucky and manage to get behind a lion (on its back) and get it into a choke hold. Even on the large side a lion is "only" around 400lbs so not quite double my weight. Having it roll on top of me is going to hurt, but unless I'm really unlucky, the weight won't do permanent damage. Once you get into the 1600lbs of a Grizzly bear or multiple tons of an elephant, forget about it, even if you manage to get to where it can't "get at you", rolling over onto you, will do the job.

Substitute a lion for Andre the Giant




vs an elephant

 

[Jetstream]

and that children is why you check your work.

I literally thought to myself 5% is 1 in 20, and the odds of rolling 1 on a d6 is something like 16%, then with d6 firmly on the brain I ignored that 16% and made the jump to 1 in 6...

Fucking numbers, amirite?

 

[ffilz]

Bambi vs. Godzilla used to be a staple in the movie room at Boskone...

In Cold Iron, Storm Giant grappling rating something like 30 to a PCs 16. On a +0 attack (at least a 50 on d100), the storm giant hits the PC for 20d12+16 damage. Now a 4th level 1000 lb war cat has a 24 rating, so will only do 8d8 damage on that +0 attack... But roll not too much above 50 and it quickly escalates to 12d8 or 16d8...

Now a 200 lb mountain lion actually has a lower grappling rating than that PC... So sure, try and wrestle the mountain lion if you're a good fantasy world fighter... I wouldn't recommend it as an average strength non-fighter where that old wiley mountain lion (4th level again) has a 12 rating to the person's 0-2 rating and no armor. Then it's doing 2d12 or 3d12 on a 50 to 10-12 hit points... And we see why lone hikers lose out to mountain lions all the time...

 

[Sharrow]

I notice there was no category for Donkey or Hippo, two highly underrated dangerous animals.

Or a boring old domestic cow. They kill and maim a lot of people every year, and a lot of the time it's not even intentional.