BRP The Edition Wars To End All Wars

[Mankcam]

Ok here it is - the placeholder thread battleground to discuss the merits of any and all of the different editions of BRP, like the true civilised folk we are!

 

[Mankcam]

I will kick it off by a partial repost from another thread (as this thread is a spin-off from that one anyway)

Generally BRP edition warring seems less heated from the outset than D&D's edition wars, to the point that 'Edition Wars' is often a humourous term amongst BRP fans who often watch the D&D World Wars with bemusement (which is ironic, but I'll get to that later)

With BRP it is usually Chaosium Classic BRP variants vs MG D100 SRD BRP variants

Going with editions within the later group, you won't find too many people getting heated about OQ vs Legend vs Mythras vs RD100, they usually all play well together.

OpenQuest is a really good rules-lite BRP game. Not too lite, it's more kinda like what B/X is for D&D in terms of simplicity. Very clean rules for BRP, a great structure to hang a system on.

Legend and Mythras tend to attract medium-crunch enthuiasts, with Mythras generally superceeding Legend due to it being the more realised version of those rules (and by the same authors). It is also the best resourced and supported out of these editions.

Revolution D100 is very indie, and mainly supported by those who crowd funded it. I would say it is for those who like medium-crunch, but also like an even more contemporary flavour for their BRP games.

Generally it's rare for players of these editions to be hostile towards each other when discussing the merits of these versions of BRP.

Chaosium Classic BRP is a bit more heated, but generally people mix and match rules from games like RuneQuest, Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu etc

BRP fans often get more heated up over settings rather than rules.

For all the aloof watching D&D wars from afar with amusement, the main battleground with BRP is in the lore of the settings, namely Glorantha being the bloody big gorilla in the corner here;

Big enough to scare many folk off, depending on the rate of grognard lore ranting that is being rattled off.

Anyway, feel free to ramble and rattle in this thread. The room here is padded, so the young folk can't get too hurt!

 

[raniE]

Swedish game publisher Target Games/Äventyrsspel basically translated the Magic World part of the Worlds of Wonder BRP boxed set back in the early 80s as Drakar och Demoner, and thus the Swedish branch of BRP was born. BRP became their house system and from the 2nd edition of DoD (not to be confused with D&D, very important distinction) they modified it to suit their own needs and the Swedish market. From the 3rd/4th edition (depending on how you count editions) the game even lost the d100 for most purposes, instead going to a d20 scale for skills. It was the original system used for Mutant (the modern descendants of which are the Modiphius edition of Mutant Chronicles and Järnringens Mutant: Year Zero, neither BRP systems), but survives today in Sweden mainly in highly modified form as the games Järn and Hjältarnas Tid, but also in a nostalgia edition of Drakar och Demoner and I think in the new Kopparhavets Hjältar, nostalgic for the old DoD setting Ereb Altor.

 

[Mankcam]

I have never come across Drakar och Demoner, but other posters have told me that it was a great version of BRP that gets often overlooked. Thanks for bringing this one to the thread!

 

[raniE]

Something Drakar och Demoner brought with it to Sweden from Glorantha, even though the setting itself never showed up in the Swedish game, was the ducks. Anthropomorphic ducks were a staple in the early editions of DoD.

Here's an example of them from the 80s art.


And here is one from the new nostalgia edition of Drakar och Demoner

 

[Winterblight]

So what are the main differences between Magic World and Mythras? I'm halfway through Magic World and have only just flicked through Mythras.

 

[CRKrueger]

To me the BRP family is like AD&D1 and AD&D2.0. One big smorgasbord of stuff to mix and match together.

 

[robertsconley]

One wrinkle is that Chaosium's staff despises the fact that the Legend RPG and derivative are out there as open content under the OGL.

 

[CRKrueger]

One wrinkle is that Chaosium's staff despises the fact that the Legend RPG and derivative are out there as open content under the OGL.

Yeah well, nothing they can do about it now, their game system is out of their hands, just like the old D&D system is out of Hasbro‘s hands.

Of course systems are technically open anyway as long as you reword everything, but Legends has a lot of RuneQuestish stuff.

 

[raniE]

So what are the main differences between Magic World and Mythras? I'm halfway through Magic World and have only just flicked through Mythras.

Assuming you’re talking about the newer Magic World and not the 1980 product, Mythras is much more detailed, for good and ill. Mythras combat runs with hp per hit location and many other bits and bobs that Magic World doesn’t really bother with. Mythras also requires that you build your own magic system while Magic World comes with a complete magic system. There are some other differences as well, but those are the main ones as I see it.

 

[CRKrueger]

Assuming you’re talking about the newer Magic World and not the 1980 product, Mythras is much more detailed, for good and ill. Mythras combat runs with hp per hit location and many other bits and bobs that Magic World doesn’t really bother with. Mythras also requires that you build your own magic system while Magic World comes with a complete magic system. There are some other differences as well, but those are the main ones as I see it.

Eh, it isn’t quite “Build your own magic system”. The main book has 5 complete magic systems. You need to do the setting work to make them fit in. Create Gods and Cults, Sorcerous Tomes and Circles, Mystic Lodges and Temples, Shamanic Traditions, Hedge Wizards and Wise Women, etc. plus there’s a few other Magic systems spread out across the various products. All them work as is.

There is a lot of customization you can do, but all of them have base rules you can use if you just want to Plug and Play.

 

[raniE]

Eh, it isn’t quite “Build your own magic system”. The main book has 5 complete magic systems. You need to do the setting work to make them fit in. Create Gods and Cults, Sorcerous Tomes and Circles, Mystic Lodges and Temples, Shamanic Traditions, Hedge Wizards and Wise Women, etc. plus there’s a few other Magic systems spread out across the various products. All them work as is.

There is a lot of customization you can do, but all of them have base rules you can use if you just want to Plug and Play.

I mean, that is pretty much a "build your own magic system". There aren't any finished traditions for anything, and I couldn't just sit down and start making a magic using character, or even a weapon using character, without diving into creating their culture and the magic traditions of the world. Whether this is a bug or a feature depends on your point of view, but Mythras isn't really "plug and play", while Magic World pretty much is.

 

[David Johansen]

What about edge cases and kissing cousins like Sword Bearer?

 

[raniE]

There are a bunch of those. As I mentioned earlier, the Swedish games Järn and Hjältarnas Tid are sort of descendants of the Swedish branch of the BRP family. It uses percentile skills, but only has three attributes, two of which are also hit points, and the combat system is rather different. The skill system also uses blackjack style resolution (higher is better, up to the skill value, over is failure) and doubles indicating critical success or failure. The inheritance from BRP is clearly there, but it's also clearly different from and not cross-compatible with something like Mythras.

 

[Winterblight]

Assuming you’re talking about the newer Magic World and not the 1980 product, Mythras is much more detailed, for good and ill. Mythras combat runs with hp per hit location and many other bits and bobs that Magic World doesn’t really bother with. Mythras also requires that you build your own magic system while Magic World comes with a complete magic system. There are some other differences as well, but those are the main ones as I see it.

I bought them a few months back - I hope they are the newer versions? They were stupid cheap.

 

[3rik]

I prefer the lighter side of the d100/BRP spectrum: OpenQuest/Renaissance, CoC and DG. Maybe Magic World as well, but I haven't really looked at that.

 

[raniE]

I bought them a few months back - I hope they are the newer versions? They were stupid cheap.

View attachment 24302

Yeah, those are the ones. And with Advanced Sorcery especially you have a very complete magic system for the game.

This would be the old Magic World from 1980.


Image found here.

 

[sureshot]

One wrinkle is that Chaosium's staff despises the fact that the Legend RPG and derivative are out there as open content under the OGL.

Yeah well, nothing they can do about it now, their game system is out of their hands, just like the old D&D system is out of Hasbro‘s hands.

Of course systems are technically open anyway as long as you reword everything, but Legends has a lot of RuneQuestish stuff.

Agreed and seconded on both posts.

Given how they botched the release of their own OGL while I am not saying they should be happy they also should learn to live with it. The BRP OGL genie is out of the bottle. With their "OGL" not very OGL and the same staff thinking no one would notice, should bury the hatchet on the subject as many are not happy in the hobby with how they handled the deserved imo criticism of Chaosium OGL. They are better served mending bridges as burning them as not too long ago the same company was in financial trouble.

 

[The Butcher]

Here’s a question to spark some debate.

What would you say is the best BRP ruleset for a fantasy game that involves stronghold and domain management?

 

[raniE]

Here’s a question to spark some debate.

What would you say is the best BRP ruleset for a fantasy game that involves stronghold and domain management?

Well, Drakar och Demoner Gigant was a supplement for Drakar och Demoner Expert (which was itself a rules supplement for Drakar och Demoner 2nd and 3rd edition) which had rules for battles, castles (both building them and knocking them down) and being a feudal lord and managing your domain. So, that one would work pretty well I think. Bit difficult to get hold of now though, and it's of course written in Swedish, so even if you did find a copy it might not be that useful to you.

 

[K_Peterson]

What would you say is the best BRP ruleset for a fantasy game that involves stronghold and domain management?

Good question.

One that comes to mind is the MRQ2 supplement, Empires. I've got a copy, but it's been ages since I've read it. So, I can't say it's "best" but it is one option out there.

Unfortunately, Mongoose didn't Legend-ize it. But, you can get a copy pretty cheaply off eBay - check out this auction from Mendelson's

 

[David Johansen]

1980 Magic World is one of my all time favorite magic systems.

 

[3rik]

I own Kickstarted slipcase sets of Trudvang Chronicles and Lex Occultum. I am told these are BRP-derived, via Drakar och Demoner, but upon an admittedly rather superficial skimming they really don't look all that related. Something about the writing or the way the rules are presented makes my eyes glaze over each time I start reading; it appears rather convoluted or finnicky.

 

[raniE]

I own Kickstarted slipcase sets of Trudvang Chronicles and Lex Occultum. I am told these are BRP-derived, via Drakar och Demoner, but upon an admittedly rather superficial skimming they really don't look all that related. Something about the writing or the way the rules are presented makes my eyes glaze over each time I start reading; it all appears very convoluted or finnicky.

Unless they changed the rules massively from the previous edition when Lex Occultum was called Götterdämmerung and was in Swedish, it's very clearly a BRP game. You've got eight stats, Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Size, Intelligence, Perception, Concentration and Power (not sure if the used the same translations), they go from 3-18. You add Constitution and Size together to get total hit points, then from there you calculate separate hit points for every hit location. There are some other derived stats too, like damage bonus. You choose an archetype and use points to increase your skill value in the skills listed under the archetype and your social class. All skills also have a base chance of success and you buy up from there. The skills are percentile. Sometimes instead of a skill you'll roll against stat*5. There's so much stuff in there that I can find in Call of Cthulhu or Magic World or Mythras.

However, let me be clear on this. Riotminds who put out those games are terrible writers. When they were in their heyday another company, Järnringen (which is now part of Free League) was doing much better work on their BRP game Mutant: Heirs to the Apocalypse. The reason was that they could write clear prose that was also evocative. Riotminds sometimes managed evocative, but they never managed clear.

 

[Bunch]

I so want to contribute to an edition war but I just am not super knowledgeable about the various BRP derivatives.
I'll just claim Other Suns is the definitive BRP and run.

 

[K_Peterson]

I don't have much edition-fight in me today, being Friday , but I do have particular likes and dislikes when it comes BRP games. Generally, when I find something that works for me, I will use the hell out of it and disregard new editions. I've never bought into the line that newer edition automatically equals better. More available, maybe more product support, but not objectively better.

So, I like my CoC 5.6e/6e, nu-Delta Green, and my MRQII because they tick all the boxes and fill their role as a mechanical platform. With that in place, I can concentrate on campaigns, or integrating the setting into rules (by customizing cultures, professions, cults/guilds/organizations in the case of MRQ2). Or just run them as-is.

I'm familiar with most of the BRP variants out there. Own a lot of them; have played only a portion of them. Some are pretty good, and some I have quibbles about. They pretty much prove their worth when they make it to the gaming table and keep coming back there.

 

[3rik]

Unless they changed the rules massively from the previous edition when Lex Occultum was called Götterdämmerung and was in Swedish, it's very clearly a BRP game. You've got eight stats, Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Size, Intelligence, Perception, Concentration and Power (not sure if the used the same translations), they go from 3-18. You add Constitution and Size together to get total hit points, then from there you calculate separate hit points for every hit location. There are some other derived stats too, like damage bonus. You choose an archetype and use points to increase your skill value in the skills listed under the archetype and your social class. All skills also have a base chance of success and you buy up from there. The skills are percentile. Sometimes instead of a skill you'll roll against stat*5. There's so much stuff in there that I can find in Call of Cthulhu or Magic World or Mythras.

However, let me be clear on this. Riotminds who put out those games are terrible writers. When they were in their heyday another company, Järnringen (which is now part of Free League) was doing much better work on their BRP game Mutant: Heirs to the Apocalypse. The reason was that they could write clear prose that was also evocative. Riotminds sometimes managed evocative, but they never managed clear.

I'm not particularly good at quick rules comprehension anyway, let alone quick internalization. So bad writing will usually do me in. The combat rules totally went over my head. They're not similar to anything found in some BRP-variant, are they?

 

[raniE]

I'm not particularly good at quick rules comprehension anyway, let alone quick internalization. So bad writing will usually do me in. The combat rules totally went over my head. They're not similar to anything found in some BRP-variant, are they?

Again, I have the previous edition of Lex Occultum, and Riotminds were sometimes fond of changing rules, but it all looks pretty standard to me. Initiative on 2d6 with modifiers for what kind of action you're doing might be newish, but otherwise it's "roll to hit, roll to parry, roll damage" pretty much. It's just usually horribly explained because Riotminds.

 

[E-Rocker]

So, what would be the best version of BRP to run my favorite RPG genre, which I believe I recently described in another thread as something like "the sort of science fiction that has little to do with actual science and could perhaps be more accurately described as adventure fiction with some sci-fi trappings?"

 

[raniE]

So, what would be the best version of BRP to run my favorite RPG genre, which I believe I recently described in another thread as something like "the sort of science fiction that has little to do with actual science and could perhaps be more accurately described as adventure fiction with some sci-fi trappings?"

Maybe big gold book BRP, run it with few options to keep things quick and snappy.

 

[3rik]

Again, I have the previous edition of Lex Occultum, and Riotminds were sometimes fond of changing rules, but it all looks pretty standard to me. Initiative on 2d6 with modifiers for what kind of action you're doing might be newish, but otherwise it's "roll to hit, roll to parry, roll damage" pretty much. It's just usually horribly explained because Riotminds.

I believe there was some kind of Action Points you had to spend during combat, with different actions having different costs. It wasn't anything I recognized from BRP BGB, CoC or OpenQuest.

 

[K_Peterson]

So, what would be the best version of BRP to run my favorite RPG genre, which I believe I recently described in another thread as something like "the sort of science fiction that has little to do with actual science and could perhaps be more accurately described as adventure fiction with some sci-fi trappings?"

Maybe M-Space plus Mythras Imperative?

I'm generally at a loss when it comes to recommending worthwhile Scifi BRP systems. M-Space looked interesting, but I only skimmed it, and have never played it.

 

[Raleel]

So many things to say

Mythras is much more detailed, for good and ill. Mythras combat runs with hp per hit location and many other bits and bobs that Magic World doesn’t really bother with. Mythras also requires that you build your own magic system while Magic World comes with a complete magic system.

I think more detailed is a perfect way to think about it. that's not always everyone's thing.

You need to do the setting work to make them fit in. Create Gods and Cults, Sorcerous Tomes and Circles, Mystic Lodges and Temples, Shamanic Traditions, Hedge Wizards and Wise Women, etc. plus there’s a few other Magic systems spread out across the various products. All them work as is.

There aren't any finished traditions for anything, and I couldn't just sit down and start making a magic using character, or even a weapon using character, without diving into creating their culture and the magic traditions of the world. Whether this is a bug or a feature depends on your point of view, but Mythras isn't really "plug and play", while Magic World pretty much is.

this is a really good sum up of it, and something I've seen fielding new folks in Mythras. The building of cults is enough of a thing that I've considered putting together a book of cults just specifically to deal with this, though I think it's not really something TDM is looking to do (my opinion only, no real knowledge). They've moved towards complete settings + rules, as they sell better. I think this is probably a good thing in some ways, though not my particular need.

Honestly, the more I read other BRP/d100, the more I compare Mythras to a BGB. It's not really exactly that, but I think it's more comparable to that. It has a pile of options, and it uses some from the BGB. I think if Mythras tacked in an optional checklist in the back like BGB (and really, that's just a small thing, even a sales bot could do it), it would be disturbingly close. Brawn, Endurance, Influence, Willpower, and Evade are functionally an option version of 5 of the 6 characteristic rolls anyways, and Lore/Locale/Customs covers pretty much all of INT

What would you say is the best BRP ruleset for a fantasy game that involves stronghold and domain management?

One that comes to mind is the MRQ2 supplement, Empires. I've got a copy, but it's been ages since I've read it. So, I can't say it's "best" but it is one option out there.

M-Space has the Circle rules that would help for such a thing, and you would run them using their extended conflict rules with influence, size, and resources being the conflict pools.

So, what would be the best version of BRP to run my favorite RPG genre, which I believe I recently described in another thread as something like "the sort of science fiction that has little to do with actual science and could perhaps be more accurately described as adventure fiction with some sci-fi trappings?"

M-Space would be good here, though if it's the one I think you mean, there is a RQ6 supplement out there that was published for free for something like a day and then pulled back for fear of legal action due to the highly litigious nature of the IP owner.

edition war - JFC, the tables! stop it. resistance tables where everything moves in 5% regular increments are dumb. make a formula, we aren't that illiterate. Also, there is a lot of skill-hair-splitting between the versions that makes a lot of mass without a lot of value. I think I would like an OQ size, Mythras Core, RD100 skills. And thus why we need a new BGB options chart.

 

[Loz]

The building of cults is enough of a thing that I've considered putting together a book of cults just specifically to deal with this, though I think it's not really something TDM is looking to do (my opinion only, no real knowledge).

I think it would be a very good addition to the line. A few years ago we had a proposal for a similar book, and we were ready to option it, but the writer disappeared into the ether, so it never went anywhere.

 

[Moonglum]

To me, the key question about BRP variants is the treatment of the magic system, which is idiosyncratic in every major game line and has a big impact on the suitability of that game to a given setting. The only three BRP magic systems I actually like are: 1) original Runequest (not including RQ III sorcery), but only when used in Glorantha; 2) Stormbringer; 3) Call of Cthuhlu. With modest effort, you can mix and match among these and get a good game for nearly any setting, but if you adopt all of the conventions of RQ magic I think you are not going to be very happy with the outcome unless you run a gloranthan campaign.

The combat and skill systems are so closely similar and so good in basically all editions that I don't think it matters which you use. By default, I end up playing original edition RQ, whatever it is we say we playing.

 

[zarion]

Long live Mythras!!!

 

[raniE]

I think it would be a very good addition to the line. A few years ago we had a proposal for a similar book, and we were ready to option it, but the writer disappeared into the ether, so it never went anywhere.

I would legit love this, if just to use as examples to get my own creative juices flowing. Having trouble creating the magic traditions has been the single biggest thing keeping me from running Mythras.

 

[CRKrueger]

I mean, that is pretty much a "build your own magic system". There aren't any finished traditions for anything, and I couldn't just sit down and start making a magic using character, or even a weapon using character, without diving into creating their culture and the magic traditions of the world. Whether this is a bug or a feature depends on your point of view, but Mythras isn't really "plug and play", while Magic World pretty much is.

Sure it is. No one says you have to create all the cults. Let your Sorcerer, Theurge, Mystic, Shaman, or Hedge Wizard just pick from the spells. Done. All the detailed, cool, RuneQuesty stuff is really Worldbuilding. It has little to do with the mechanics of casting a spell and determining results.

If I’m gonna go Full.Monty with polishing and tuning Mythras magic, I’m not gonna just drop in Magic World into my setting.

If I’m gonna just drop in Magic World into my setting, then I’ll just drop Mythras magic systems too, and forget the polishing and tuning.

 

[Raleel]

I think it would be a very good addition to the line. A few years ago we had a proposal for a similar book, and we were ready to option it, but the writer disappeared into the ether, so it never went anywhere.

I would legit love this, if just to use as examples to get my own creative juices flowing. Having trouble creating the magic traditions has been the single biggest thing keeping me from running Mythras.

me and my big mouth

 

[raniE]

Sure it is. No one says you have to create all the cults. Let your Sorcerer, Theurge, Mystic, Shaman, or Hedge Wizard just pick from the spells. Done. All the detailed, cool, RuneQuesty stuff is really Worldbuilding. It has little to do with the mechanics of casting a spell and determining results.

If I’m gonna go Full.Monty with polishing and tuning Mythras magic, I’m not gonna just drop in Magic World into my setting.

If I’m gonna just drop in Magic World into my setting, then I’ll just drop Mythras magic systems too, and forget the polishing and tuning.

Apart from all the stuff around the spells that requires you to decide how magic functions (like deciding how you regain magic points) I really don’t think this would work that well/at all. And the point is that whether you want Magic World or Mythras depends on what you want to do. If you want advanced combat, cultural details and a bespoke magic system, and you’ve got the time for it, then Mythras is for you. If you want something you can start playing in 30 minutes, welcome to Magic World.