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AsenRG

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There must be some regional variability apparently. If you are in Yoo-Esss-and-Ay Mythras core is about the same, Lulu's Lyonesse is cheaper, etc.
Now I'm starting to have suspicions what the name of Yoon-Suin is derived from...:grin:

How different can a BRP game become before it stops being BRP?
I'll know which one it is when I see it:thumbsup:.

Just wondering if anyone here is running Glorantha using Mythras rules instead of RQG?
I would have, if I was running Glorantha. That doesn't seem to be likely for a long time, though:shade:.
But it is what it is.

We should make some more fans to do the writing!
Is that your way to put it off for another couple of decades:tongue:?
 

Acmegamer

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Speaking of derived from Chaosium's d100 system, I've been re-reading the Harnmaster book after not reading it for a couple decades. I'd forgotten just how similar to the BRP system it is. I've always loved the depth of the Harn world and the maps in particular that Crossby and crew did.
 

Bilharzia

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Calling Runequest a BRP game is the same to calling Champions a Hero System game, IMO, and most Hero fans haven't had any trouble with that. :grin:

RuneQuest was not derived from BRP though, unless you subscribe to the backwards theory of time. This has some benefits, because at some point Billy Ray Cyrus will forget that "Achy" rhymes with "Breaky".
 

Armchair Gamer

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RuneQuest was not derived from BRP though, unless you subscribe to the backwards theory of time. This has some benefits, because at some point Billy Ray Cyrus will forget that "Achy" rhymes with "Breaky".

And the Hero System was derived from Champions, not vice versa, so the parallel holds. :smile:
 

ffilz

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As someone who has been a fan of RuneQuest since 1978 with 1st edition, I totally support that the "BRP family of games" includes RuneQuest in all it's versions. Sure, BRP is a distillation of RQ, but it explicitly was that distillation to provide the basis to build new games that makes it so powerful. This same kind of distillation happened with Champions into the Hero System, though in the case of the Hero System, other systems built from the same core design predated the introduction of a generic formulation of the system, but I'm pretty sure we started talking Hero System at least by the time of Fantasy Hero.

On top of that, I accept games that while not licensed or explicitly deriving from BRP are part of the family. So Other Suns which as far as I know is not remotely licensed by Chaosium is clearly a BRP family game. Open Quest is definitely a BRP family game.

On the other hand, I don't think that a game that happens to use d100 as the randomizer for it's core mechanic automatically places it in the BRP family.

I take d100 Games as an intent to be able to refer to the BRP family without violating trademarks and this would not include just any game that used d100 as a d100 Game. Just as I don't think Talislanta is a D20 Game though it does use a d20 for resolution.

It's tricky because it's easy to see "roll 1d100 less than or equal to skill rating" as the core of BRP, but there are clearly games that use that mechanic that really otherwise look nothing like the BRP family games, so I think there's definitely more to it.

And interestingly, I don't think early editions of D&D are D20 Games...

How do you place something like Bushido which rates skills on a 0-99 scale, but then divides by 5 and uses d20? Definitely not BRP, D100, OR D20...

So what makes a BRP family game in the family?

Oh, and I assume everyone knows the resistance table appeared in Metamorphosis Alpha a couple years before RuneQuest (is that indeed the first occurrence?) though it uses 3d6. Besides not all BRP games use the resistance table... Really the only common factor is 3d6 (ish) attributes and d100 skill rolls...
 
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Armchair Gamer

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As someone who has been a fan of RuneQuest since 1978 with 1st edition, I totally support that the "BRP family of games" includes RuneQuest in all it's versions. Sure, BRP is a distillation of RQ, but it explicitly was that distillation to provide the basis to build new games that makes it so powerful. This same kind of distillation happened with Champions into the Hero System, though in the case of the Hero System, other systems built from the same core design predated the introduction of a generic formulation of the system, but I'm pretty sure we started talking Hero System at least by the time of Fantasy Hero.

The term "Hero System (TM) games" appears on the covers of Danger International and Justice Inc., so it would appear that the only derivative that predates the definition would be Espionage. The copyright on the Hero System as such is dated 1984.

On the other hand, I don't think that a game that happens to use d100 as the randomizer for it's core mechanic automatically places it in the BRP family.

So what makes a BRP family game in the family?

The tricky part: Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s? :smile:
 

Séadna

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Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s?
To me yes, as the underlying logic is the same. It's just a BRP game where skills go in increments of 5%.

It's no different in a sense to BRP games where the attributes are left at 8-18 or multiplied up by five to be of the same scale as the skills.
 
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Ben Adams

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To me yes, as the underlying logic is the same. It's just a BRP game where skills go in increments of 5%.

It's no different in a sense to games where the attributes are left at 8-18 or multiplied up by five to be of the same scale as the skills.
So you would consider classic Alternity a BRP game?
 

Séadna

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So you would consider classic Alternity a BRP game?
I don't know anything about it. Looking at a brief description of it online it has stuff that seems a good bit different from BRP, but again I don't really know it.
 

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I'll know which one it is when I see it:thumbsup:.
Well, all my examples are in Swedish, so unless you know the language, it's going to be hard to see for you :smile: But my example of Drakar och Demoner that went with a d20 instead of a d100 from the 2nd/3rd/4th edition (depending on which side of the edition numbering debate for that game you end up on, and if you count the expert rules from 2nd edition) but otherwise remained mostly the same (originally based on Magic World) or adding rules mainly from the RuneQuest line (like hit locations), would you count that?
 

raniE

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As someone who has been a fan of RuneQuest since 1978 with 1st edition, I totally support that the "BRP family of games" includes RuneQuest in all it's versions. Sure, BRP is a distillation of RQ, but it explicitly was that distillation to provide the basis to build new games that makes it so powerful. This same kind of distillation happened with Champions into the Hero System, though in the case of the Hero System, other systems built from the same core design predated the introduction of a generic formulation of the system, but I'm pretty sure we started talking Hero System at least by the time of Fantasy Hero.

On top of that, I accept games that while not licensed or explicitly deriving from BRP are part of the family. So Other Suns which as far as I know is not remotely licensed by Chaosium is clearly a BRP family game. Open Quest is definitely a BRP family game.

On the other hand, I don't think that a game that happens to use d100 as the randomizer for it's core mechanic automatically places it in the BRP family.

I take d100 Games as an intent to be able to refer to the BRP family without violating trademarks and this would not include just any game that used d100 as a d100 Game. Just as I don't think Talislanta is a D20 Game though it does use a d20 for resolution.

It's tricky because it's easy to see "roll 1d100 less than or equal to skill rating" as the core of BRP, but there are clearly games that use that mechanic that really otherwise look nothing like the BRP family games, so I think there's definitely more to it.

And interestingly, I don't think early editions of D&D are D20 Games...

How do you place something like Bushido which rates skills on a 0-99 scale, but then divides by 5 and uses d20? Definitely not BRP, D100, OR D20...

So what makes a BRP family game in the family?

Oh, and I assume everyone knows the resistance table appeared in Metamorphosis Alpha a couple years before RuneQuest (is that indeed the first occurrence?) though it uses 3d6. Besides not all BRP games use the resistance table... Really the only common factor is 3d6 (ish) attributes and d100 skill rolls...
Yeah, this is what I mean. Maybe there isn't one thing that makes a game BRP. Maybe it's having a certain number of features from a list of them, even though which specific features those are may differ from game to game. Like I've mentioned, the Drkar och Demoner games switched over to using a D20 for skills instead of a D100 after a few editions, but are seen by the Swedish roleplaying community as clearly BRP games, and rightfully so in my opinion. So not only is "uses D100 roll under for skill checks" not exclusive to BRP, but it isn't required either.
 

raniE

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The term "Hero System (TM) games" appears on the covers of Danger International and Justice Inc., so it would appear that the only derivative that predates the definition would be Espionage. The copyright on the Hero System as such is dated 1984.



The tricky part: Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s? :smile:
I'm pretty sure we got into this discussion by me naming the Swedish BRP games that abandoned the D100 for a D20 as still BRP. The first edition to do that came out in 1985 too, same year as Pendragon 1st edition.
 

AsenRG

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Well, all my examples are in Swedish, so unless you know the language, it's going to be hard to see for you :smile: But my example of Drakar och Demoner that went with a d20 instead of a d100 from the 2nd/3rd/4th edition (depending on which side of the edition numbering debate for that game you end up on, and if you count the expert rules from 2nd edition) but otherwise remained mostly the same (originally based on Magic World) or adding rules mainly from the RuneQuest line (like hit locations), would you count that?
Sounds like you can count it as BRP if you like the idea it's BRP, or pretend it's not if, say, you had a player who hates BRP:grin:!
Pendragon is BRP 2.0 if you ask me.
 

Lofgeornost

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The tricky part: Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s? :smile:

To me yes, as the underlying logic is the same. It's just a BRP game where skills go in increments of 5%.

It's no different in a sense to BRP games where the attributes are left at 8-18 or multiplied up by five to be of the same scale as the skills.

I definitely agree that whether you use a D100 or a D20 for resolution doesn't make any real difference; it's just a question of granularity. Switching to a bell-curve would, IMO, though others might disagree.

I'll admit that I'm on the fence as to whether Pendragon is a BRP game or not. The core mechanic for opposed rolls, often called a blackjack approach, is somewhat different than the standard BRP model and seems to be designed to reduce the 'whiff factor' that some people complain about in BRP combats. But is that enough to make Pendragon a separate game system? I'm not sure.

Pendragon is BRP 2.0 if you ask me.
That seems like a reasonable way to put it.
 

ReluctantGM

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From Wikipedia:

The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters. The phrase was used in 1964 by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for BRP in raniE raniE vs. Runequest.[1][2] In explaining why the material at issue in the case was BRP under the Stafford Test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["BRP"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the Role Playing Game involved in this case is certainly that."

Edit: The above text should be read aloud in your best impression of the voice of Foghorn Leghorn.
 

Séadna

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I'll admit that I'm on the fence as to whether Pendragon is a BRP game or not. The core mechanic for opposed rolls, often called a blackjack approach, is somewhat different than the standard BRP model and seems to be designed to reduce the 'whiff factor' that some people complain about in BRP combats. But is that enough to make Pendragon a separate game system? I'm not sure.
Yeah I'd agree. The later generation of BRP games like Mythras and Openquest have similar BlackJack like opposed systems and stuff like Passions. I think AsenRG's BRP 2.0 is probably the right phrasing. Pendragon is close to Mythras and Openquest, but further from older Runequest.
 

Ben Adams

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I don't know anything about it. Looking at a brief description of it online it has stuff that seems a good bit different from BRP, but again I don't really know it.
Alternity (at least WotC) was a d20 under. Attributes were 2 to 14 and skills were related to those numbers.
 

Simlasa

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I would not because Gregg Stafford didn't write it nor did TSR intend it to be part of the BRP "family". I think intention is highly pertinent and Stafford is, well, Stafford.
Why is Gregg Stafford a criteria? He didn't write any of the BRP games I play, they were merely derived from one he wrote... once upon a time... but his involvement beyond that point is nil.
 

ffilz

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Why is Gregg Stafford a criteria? He didn't write any of the BRP games I play, they were merely derived from one he wrote... once upon a time... but his involvement beyond that point is nil.
Well the criteria for BRP family needs to be something more than just d100. I’m trying to get a handle on what else makes a BRP game.
 

Nick J

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Compared levels of success? Armor absorbs damage? You never modify the d100 roll, just the skill/target number? Defense isn't passive? Two equal and opposed forces have a fifty-fifty chance of success (true with the resistance table, maybe not so much with "blackjack" style opposed rolls where the highest successful roll trumps a similar level of success)? I'd say you gotta be able to lose a limb, but I'm not sure that's necessarily true. . .
 

Mankcam

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I don't know if I can clearly define what makes a BRP game
We all know the core Skill system uses D100%, and most of the core Characteristics are similar.
It generally has tallies for innate resources like Hit Points, Magic Points, etc.
Beyond this it starts to get hazy in terms of articulated definition, however it feels easier just to handwave what's in or out:
  • Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay uses D100%, but clearly isn't BRP.
  • Rolemaster used a D100 dice (not D100%), and clearly is not BRP.
  • Harn used a D100%, but clearly was not BRP.
  • Call of Cthulhu, even 7E, is definately BRP.
  • RuneQuest is definately BRP.
  • Mythras is BRP.
  • OpenQuest is BRP.
  • Pendragon is an interesting case, as it uses a D20, yet feels very 'BRP-ish'. Borderline case. I'm not sure what it is - perhaps 'BRP-adjacent'?
  • Jackals, the new game from Osprey is a bit of an enigma. I thought that it was meant to be a version of OQ, but it is pretty different. The BRP/OQ engine is there at a foundation level, but the dials feel different enough that it is barely a BRP game. Borderline case.
So I'm not sure if I can formulate a definition for BRP, beyond "I'll know it when I see it!"
 
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Ronnie Sanford

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I don't know if I can clearly define what makes a BRP game
We all know the core Skill system uses D100%, and most of the core Characteristics are similar.
It generally has tallies for innate resources like Hit Points, Magic Points, etc.
Beyond this it starts to get hazy in terms of articulated definition, however it feels easier just to handwave what's in or out:
  • Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay uses D100%, but clearly isn't BRP.
  • Rolemaster used a D100 dice (not D100%), and clearly is not BRP.
  • Harn used a D100%, but clearly was not BRP.
  • Call of Cthulhu, even 7E, is definately BRP.
  • RuneQuest is definately BRP.
  • Mythras is BRP.
  • OpenQuest is BRP.
  • Pendragon is an interesting case, as it uses a D20, yet feels very 'BRP-ish'. Borderline case. I'm not sure what it is - perhaps 'BRP-adjacent'?
  • Jackals, the new game from Osprey is a bit of an enigma. I thought that it was meant to be a version of OQ, but it is pretty different. The BRP/OQ engine is there at a foundation level, but the dials feel different enough that it is barely a BRP game. Borderline case.
So I'm not sure if I can formulate a definition for BRP, beyond "I'll know it when I see it!"
I think your close. Add a success mechanism and you’re done.
 

Cross Planes

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Why is Gregg Stafford a criteria? He didn't write any of the BRP games I play, they were merely derived from one he wrote... once upon a time... but his involvement beyond that point is nil.
Here is my thinking, Greg created Chaosium. Greg created Glorantha. He co-created RuneQuest which led to Call of Cthulhu & BRP. So, for me, he is an essential part of the evolution of BRP. Pendragon, IMO, is BRP with a d20.

I don't think Alternity is a BRP-derived game, however, it was designed by Bill Slaviscek (sp?) who worked at West End Games and Greg helped develop the Ghostbusters RPG which led to the Star Wars RPG. So maybe there is a connection?

I mean, Gary Gygax & Dave Arneson didn't write any of the D&D games I play but I think they are essential to that family of games.
 

Simlasa

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Here is my thinking, Greg created Chaosium. Greg created Glorantha. He co-created RuneQuest which led to Call of Cthulhu & BRP. So, for me, he is an essential part of the evolution of BRP.
Sure, but whether he actually wrote a game has nothing to do with whether it's BRP or not. Right?
 

raniE

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I don't know if I can clearly define what makes a BRP game
We all know the core Skill system uses D100%, and most of the core Characteristics are similar.
It generally has tallies for innate resources like Hit Points, Magic Points, etc.
Beyond this it starts to get hazy in terms of articulated definition, however it feels easier just to handwave what's in or out:
  • Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay uses D100%, but clearly isn't BRP.
  • Rolemaster used a D100 dice (not D100%), and clearly is not BRP.
  • Harn used a D100%, but clearly was not BRP.
  • Call of Cthulhu, even 7E, is definately BRP.
  • RuneQuest is definately BRP.
  • Mythras is BRP.
  • OpenQuest is BRP.
  • Pendragon is an interesting case, as it uses a D20, yet feels very 'BRP-ish'. Borderline case. I'm not sure what it is - perhaps 'BRP-adjacent'?
  • Jackals, the new game from Osprey is a bit of an enigma. I thought that it was meant to be a version of OQ, but it is pretty different. The BRP/OQ engine is there at a foundation level, but the dials feel different enough that it is barely a BRP game. Borderline case.
So I'm not sure if I can formulate a definition for BRP, beyond "I'll know it when I see it!"
As I have outlined earlier in this thread, the Swedish branch of the BRP system abandoned the D100 and went over to D20 fairly quickly, yet are still clearly BRP games. I don't think you'll be able to find a certain set of criteria that are always able to clearly define whether or not something is a BRP-game or not, and the use of percentile dice is obviously not a necessary condition. I think you need to instead draw up a list of criteria, and then say "anything that fulfills X number of the Y criteria is a BRP game".
 

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Are Swords & Wizardry, Castles & Crusades, and so on, D&D? Not in name, but they are emulating D&D.

I would say that BRP is the Chaosium/RuneQuest line. There are games that have similar mechanics to this line, but they would only be BRP in the sense that Castles & Crusades in D&D. So BRP to me is anything that’s ever had the name RuneQuest, BRP, or that Chaosium based off those rules. Other very similar d100 games are not BRP, but they are emulating it.

So, just as the only D&D in print right now is D&D 5e, the only BRP in print right now are the Chaosium games. Mythras is a special exception, having once been called RuneQuest. It’s as if the king (Chaosium) had a mistress (Mongoose) which produced another line (RuneQuest 4-6). For a while, it looked like the child of this line (RuneQuest 6) would be the heir of the kingdom. But then, the king had a son (RuneQuest Glorantha) with his wife. This son is the rightful ruler. But, while he is very handsome, most of the kingdom knows that the step-son (Mythras) would make a better king.

On the other hand, one could effectively argue that “it’s all D&D to me” TSR, WotC, and the OSR. Likewise, “it’s all BRP to me.”
 
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raniE

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Are Swords & Wizardry, Castles & Crusades, and so on, D&D? Not in name, but they are emulating D&D.

I would say that BRP is the Chaosium/RuneQuest line. There are games that have similar mechanics to this line, but they would only be BRP in the sense that Castles & Crusades in D&D. So BRP to me is anything that’s ever had the name RuneQuest, BRP, or that Chaosium based off those rules. Other very similar d100 games are not BRP, but they are emulating it.

So, just as the only D&D in print right now is D&D 5e, the only BRP in print right now are the Chaosium games. Mythras is a special exception, having once been called RuneQuest. It’s as if the king (Chaosium) had a mistress (Mongoose) which produced another line (RuneQuest 4-6). For a while, it looked like the child of this line (RuneQuest 6) would be the heir of the kingdom. But then, the king had a son (RuneQuest Glorantha) with his wife. This son is the rightful ruler. But, while he is very handsome, most of the kingdom knows that the step-son (Mythras) would make a better king.

On the other hand, one could effectively argue that “it’s all D&D to me” TSR, WotC, and the OSR. Likewise, “it’s all BRP to me.”
Even going by your definition there are other BRP games out there now. The first Swedish Drakar och Demoner was a translation of Chaosium's Magic World from the Worlds of Wonder boxed set (and anyone who knows the big gold book and looks through the early Drakar och Demoner spell list will see that the seplls are basically identical to the Magic system (not Sorcery, magic) in BGB). The third edition still listed Steve Perrin in the credits as well. Since there's currently a Drakar och Demoner game in print that's a later edition of those rules it would still count as official BRP according to your system.
 

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Sure, but whether he actually wrote a game has nothing to do with whether it's BRP or not. Right?

Yeah, I suppose you are right. I think a lot of Greg Stafford though. RuneQuest, Pendragon, Ghostbusters, Prince Valiant, & HeroQuest blazed trails that the rest of the industry eventually followed. I remember reading RQ2 and thinking about the bells & whistles others would pull from it and it was published in the very early days of our hobby and, IMO, it took decades for some other publishers to catch up.
 

Raleel

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Probably would have something like points at a pile of body parts “that is my left leg. There are many like it, but that one was mine.”
 
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