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AsenRG

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There must be some regional variability apparently. If you are in Yoo-Esss-and-Ay Mythras core is about the same, Lulu's Lyonesse is cheaper, etc.
Now I'm starting to have suspicions what the name of Yoon-Suin is derived from...:grin:

How different can a BRP game become before it stops being BRP?
I'll know which one it is when I see it:thumbsup:.

Just wondering if anyone here is running Glorantha using Mythras rules instead of RQG?
I would have, if I was running Glorantha. That doesn't seem to be likely for a long time, though:shade:.
But it is what it is.

We should make some more fans to do the writing!
Is that your way to put it off for another couple of decades:tongue:?
 

Acmegamer

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Speaking of derived from Chaosium's d100 system, I've been re-reading the Harnmaster book after not reading it for a couple decades. I'd forgotten just how similar to the BRP system it is. I've always loved the depth of the Harn world and the maps in particular that Crossby and crew did.
 

Bilharzia

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Calling Runequest a BRP game is the same to calling Champions a Hero System game, IMO, and most Hero fans haven't had any trouble with that. :grin:

RuneQuest was not derived from BRP though, unless you subscribe to the backwards theory of time. This has some benefits, because at some point Billy Ray Cyrus will forget that "Achy" rhymes with "Breaky".
 

Armchair Gamer

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RuneQuest was not derived from BRP though, unless you subscribe to the backwards theory of time. This has some benefits, because at some point Billy Ray Cyrus will forget that "Achy" rhymes with "Breaky".

And the Hero System was derived from Champions, not vice versa, so the parallel holds. :smile:
 

ffilz

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As someone who has been a fan of RuneQuest since 1978 with 1st edition, I totally support that the "BRP family of games" includes RuneQuest in all it's versions. Sure, BRP is a distillation of RQ, but it explicitly was that distillation to provide the basis to build new games that makes it so powerful. This same kind of distillation happened with Champions into the Hero System, though in the case of the Hero System, other systems built from the same core design predated the introduction of a generic formulation of the system, but I'm pretty sure we started talking Hero System at least by the time of Fantasy Hero.

On top of that, I accept games that while not licensed or explicitly deriving from BRP are part of the family. So Other Suns which as far as I know is not remotely licensed by Chaosium is clearly a BRP family game. Open Quest is definitely a BRP family game.

On the other hand, I don't think that a game that happens to use d100 as the randomizer for it's core mechanic automatically places it in the BRP family.

I take d100 Games as an intent to be able to refer to the BRP family without violating trademarks and this would not include just any game that used d100 as a d100 Game. Just as I don't think Talislanta is a D20 Game though it does use a d20 for resolution.

It's tricky because it's easy to see "roll 1d100 less than or equal to skill rating" as the core of BRP, but there are clearly games that use that mechanic that really otherwise look nothing like the BRP family games, so I think there's definitely more to it.

And interestingly, I don't think early editions of D&D are D20 Games...

How do you place something like Bushido which rates skills on a 0-99 scale, but then divides by 5 and uses d20? Definitely not BRP, D100, OR D20...

So what makes a BRP family game in the family?

Oh, and I assume everyone knows the resistance table appeared in Metamorphosis Alpha a couple years before RuneQuest (is that indeed the first occurrence?) though it uses 3d6. Besides not all BRP games use the resistance table... Really the only common factor is 3d6 (ish) attributes and d100 skill rolls...
 
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Armchair Gamer

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As someone who has been a fan of RuneQuest since 1978 with 1st edition, I totally support that the "BRP family of games" includes RuneQuest in all it's versions. Sure, BRP is a distillation of RQ, but it explicitly was that distillation to provide the basis to build new games that makes it so powerful. This same kind of distillation happened with Champions into the Hero System, though in the case of the Hero System, other systems built from the same core design predated the introduction of a generic formulation of the system, but I'm pretty sure we started talking Hero System at least by the time of Fantasy Hero.

The term "Hero System (TM) games" appears on the covers of Danger International and Justice Inc., so it would appear that the only derivative that predates the definition would be Espionage. The copyright on the Hero System as such is dated 1984.

On the other hand, I don't think that a game that happens to use d100 as the randomizer for it's core mechanic automatically places it in the BRP family.

So what makes a BRP family game in the family?

The tricky part: Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s? :smile:
 

Séadna

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Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s?
To me yes, as the underlying logic is the same. It's just a BRP game where skills go in increments of 5%.

It's no different in a sense to BRP games where the attributes are left at 8-18 or multiplied up by five to be of the same scale as the skills.
 
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Ben Adams

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To me yes, as the underlying logic is the same. It's just a BRP game where skills go in increments of 5%.

It's no different in a sense to games where the attributes are left at 8-18 or multiplied up by five to be of the same scale as the skills.
So you would consider classic Alternity a BRP game?
 

Séadna

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So you would consider classic Alternity a BRP game?
I don't know anything about it. Looking at a brief description of it online it has stuff that seems a good bit different from BRP, but again I don't really know it.
 

raniE

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I'll know which one it is when I see it:thumbsup:.
Well, all my examples are in Swedish, so unless you know the language, it's going to be hard to see for you :smile: But my example of Drakar och Demoner that went with a d20 instead of a d100 from the 2nd/3rd/4th edition (depending on which side of the edition numbering debate for that game you end up on, and if you count the expert rules from 2nd edition) but otherwise remained mostly the same (originally based on Magic World) or adding rules mainly from the RuneQuest line (like hit locations), would you count that?
 

raniE

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As someone who has been a fan of RuneQuest since 1978 with 1st edition, I totally support that the "BRP family of games" includes RuneQuest in all it's versions. Sure, BRP is a distillation of RQ, but it explicitly was that distillation to provide the basis to build new games that makes it so powerful. This same kind of distillation happened with Champions into the Hero System, though in the case of the Hero System, other systems built from the same core design predated the introduction of a generic formulation of the system, but I'm pretty sure we started talking Hero System at least by the time of Fantasy Hero.

On top of that, I accept games that while not licensed or explicitly deriving from BRP are part of the family. So Other Suns which as far as I know is not remotely licensed by Chaosium is clearly a BRP family game. Open Quest is definitely a BRP family game.

On the other hand, I don't think that a game that happens to use d100 as the randomizer for it's core mechanic automatically places it in the BRP family.

I take d100 Games as an intent to be able to refer to the BRP family without violating trademarks and this would not include just any game that used d100 as a d100 Game. Just as I don't think Talislanta is a D20 Game though it does use a d20 for resolution.

It's tricky because it's easy to see "roll 1d100 less than or equal to skill rating" as the core of BRP, but there are clearly games that use that mechanic that really otherwise look nothing like the BRP family games, so I think there's definitely more to it.

And interestingly, I don't think early editions of D&D are D20 Games...

How do you place something like Bushido which rates skills on a 0-99 scale, but then divides by 5 and uses d20? Definitely not BRP, D100, OR D20...

So what makes a BRP family game in the family?

Oh, and I assume everyone knows the resistance table appeared in Metamorphosis Alpha a couple years before RuneQuest (is that indeed the first occurrence?) though it uses 3d6. Besides not all BRP games use the resistance table... Really the only common factor is 3d6 (ish) attributes and d100 skill rolls...
Yeah, this is what I mean. Maybe there isn't one thing that makes a game BRP. Maybe it's having a certain number of features from a list of them, even though which specific features those are may differ from game to game. Like I've mentioned, the Drkar och Demoner games switched over to using a D20 for skills instead of a D100 after a few editions, but are seen by the Swedish roleplaying community as clearly BRP games, and rightfully so in my opinion. So not only is "uses D100 roll under for skill checks" not exclusive to BRP, but it isn't required either.
 

raniE

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The term "Hero System (TM) games" appears on the covers of Danger International and Justice Inc., so it would appear that the only derivative that predates the definition would be Espionage. The copyright on the Hero System as such is dated 1984.



The tricky part: Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s? :smile:
I'm pretty sure we got into this discussion by me naming the Swedish BRP games that abandoned the D100 for a D20 as still BRP. The first edition to do that came out in 1985 too, same year as Pendragon 1st edition.
 

AsenRG

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Well, all my examples are in Swedish, so unless you know the language, it's going to be hard to see for you :smile: But my example of Drakar och Demoner that went with a d20 instead of a d100 from the 2nd/3rd/4th edition (depending on which side of the edition numbering debate for that game you end up on, and if you count the expert rules from 2nd edition) but otherwise remained mostly the same (originally based on Magic World) or adding rules mainly from the RuneQuest line (like hit locations), would you count that?
Sounds like you can count it as BRP if you like the idea it's BRP, or pretend it's not if, say, you had a player who hates BRP:grin:!
Pendragon is BRP 2.0 if you ask me.
 

Lofgeornost

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The tricky part: Is Pendragon part of the family despite using d20s? :smile:

To me yes, as the underlying logic is the same. It's just a BRP game where skills go in increments of 5%.

It's no different in a sense to BRP games where the attributes are left at 8-18 or multiplied up by five to be of the same scale as the skills.

I definitely agree that whether you use a D100 or a D20 for resolution doesn't make any real difference; it's just a question of granularity. Switching to a bell-curve would, IMO, though others might disagree.

I'll admit that I'm on the fence as to whether Pendragon is a BRP game or not. The core mechanic for opposed rolls, often called a blackjack approach, is somewhat different than the standard BRP model and seems to be designed to reduce the 'whiff factor' that some people complain about in BRP combats. But is that enough to make Pendragon a separate game system? I'm not sure.

Pendragon is BRP 2.0 if you ask me.
That seems like a reasonable way to put it.
 

ReluctantGM

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From Wikipedia:

The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters. The phrase was used in 1964 by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for BRP in raniE raniE vs. Runequest.[1][2] In explaining why the material at issue in the case was BRP under the Stafford Test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["BRP"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the Role Playing Game involved in this case is certainly that."

Edit: The above text should be read aloud in your best impression of the voice of Foghorn Leghorn.
 

Séadna

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I'll admit that I'm on the fence as to whether Pendragon is a BRP game or not. The core mechanic for opposed rolls, often called a blackjack approach, is somewhat different than the standard BRP model and seems to be designed to reduce the 'whiff factor' that some people complain about in BRP combats. But is that enough to make Pendragon a separate game system? I'm not sure.
Yeah I'd agree. The later generation of BRP games like Mythras and Openquest have similar BlackJack like opposed systems and stuff like Passions. I think AsenRG's BRP 2.0 is probably the right phrasing. Pendragon is close to Mythras and Openquest, but further from older Runequest.
 
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