BRP The Edition Wars To End All Wars

[3rik]

The Malleus Monstrorum is a beautifil full colour slipcase double edition - there is no way you will be disappointed

I own the last edition of the Malleus and it has these fun "cryptozoological" illustrations that I really wish they would've kept in the new books. Would love a hardcover version of that one.

 

[Mankcam]

I own the last edition of the Malleus and it has these fun "cryptozoological" illustrations that I really wish they would've kept in the new books. Would love a hardcover version of that one.

Yes the previous edition was actually much better for my imagination.
It never had many outright pictures of the mythos creatures, instead relying on witness accounts and pseudo historical and folkloric depictions of the entities and mythos horrors. In many ways this works much better for the authentic supernatural aspect, rather than presenting a beautiful but quantifiable beastie book.

 

[Simlasa]

Yes the previous edition was actually much better for my imagination.

I've skeptically assumed that the art 'upgrade' is the main draw for new blood into COC 7e, but I haven't liked much of it, ESPECIALLY the bright and cheerful illustrations of the mythos beasties... which leaves them feeling like entries in a D&D monster manual. Cartoony and not enough shadow.
The style I've seen in a lot of World of Darkness books would seem better suited, IMO... but Chaosium seems to be tamping down the 'scary' in favor of action-adventure.

 

[Mankcam]

I've skeptically assumed that the art 'upgrade' is the main draw for new blood into COC 7e, but I haven't liked much of it, ESPECIALLY the bright and cheerful illustrations of the mythos beasties... which leaves them feeling like entries in a D&D monster manual. Cartoony and not enough shadow.
The style I've seen in a lot of World of Darkness books would seem better suited, IMO... but Chaosium seems to be tamping down the 'scary' in favor of action-adventure.

I do like the art, but I totally would have preferred more shadowy unfathomable things in the pictures. You can achieve more with just hints of the horrors, such as depictions of terrified witnesses where the reader just gets glimpses of the creatures from mirrors, or in the whites of the eyes of onlookers as such.

(I do like how CoC 7E feels pulpy, and as a GM I prefer having rollicking pulp investigators for the major world-spanning campaigns. I don’t know how I could make those big campaigns endure without the more robust nature of pulp characters, given how deadly the BRP system is)

However my issue is that the Pulp Cthulhu line needs to feel quite different in tone from the core line, otherwise the fundamental serious horror aspect of the core game line gets diluted.

Unfortunately the art direction that Chaosium has gone with for the entire CoC 7E line would have been more appropriate just kept for the Pulp Cthulhu line. Some of the rules as well, such as Bonus/Penalty Dice, have a pulpy tone to them that I feel does not suit the core game.

The artwork is great, but for me it is too bright and quantifiable to capture the supernatural horror tone of the classic core setting.

 

[Simlasa]

I do like the art, but I totally would have preferred more shadowy unfathomable things in the pictures.

Oh, I don't think the art is bad at all... just not a good fit for my tastes in horror.
I never did run the big world-hopping sorts of adventures much... exotic locales, maybe, but not here-there-everywhere. I always preferred situations that weren't epic and world threatening... neighborhood/town threatening was more my style.

 

[Mankcam]

I certainly prefer the classic core game for single stories, with vulnerable characters. The horror investigation aspect works much better, and no one knows who will survive. It’s really the essence of Call of Cthulhu, and why it has endured so long against heroic fantasy like D&D.

 

[AsenRG]

I certainly prefer the classic core game for single stories, with vulnerable characters. The horror investigation aspect works much better, and no one knows who will survive. It’s really the essence of Call of Cthulhu, and why it has endured so long against heroic fantasy like D&D.

Man, I'm starting to suspect all three of my GMs have been running CoC wrong...

I mean, I've played in roughly 5 adventures, but my PCs had lost, combined, less than 10 HP and less than 20 SAN between them at the end. A Masks of Nyarlathotep game sure seems doable with those odds!

 

[Mankcam]

Man, I'm starting to suspect all three of my GMs have been running CoC wrong...

I mean, I've played in roughly 5 adventures, but my PCs had lost, combined, less than 10 HP and less than 20 SAN between them at the end. A Masks of Nyarlathotep game sure seems doable with those odds!

MoN gets pretty deadly with all the potential assaination attempts by cultists in London, but the Eygpt chapter really amps things up a bit in the catacombs under the Pyramids and whatnot. All the mythos-hybrid cultists plus the high priest sorcerer etc, if standard characters are finding that a walk in the park then maybe your GMs are indeed pulling their punches

Given the ammount of HP characters have, and the slow natural healing rate, then one or two significant combat scenes can easily set characters back if not outright incapacitate or kill them. Lots of opportunities needed to deplete Luck Pts just to keep the characters from going down, and if the fear/horror rules are used effectively, there's lots of opportunities to lose Sanity Pts as well.

If the GMs are very liberal giving out lots of opportunities for Sanity/Luck regain checks, then that's possibly what's keeping things afloat. Those tallies should be easy to deplete, and challenging to regain.

Having said that, if your party survived with only 10HP and 20 SAN between them, then they barely survived. I'm not sure the GMs are pulling their punches, because you group only had one more combat scene left in them before things would of went to the wall heh heh

I find Pulp Cthulhu works better for long games like MoN, HotOE, etc as the PCs get an extra buffer of resilience/toughness (portrayed as double HP) and one or two pulp talents - but even so, it's still lots of threat for Sanity depletion and character death, but the double HP soaks a fair bit of damage up to keep PCs in the game.

In contrast, I also love doing one-shots using the standard rules, presenting a cast of pre-gen characters tailored to the setting for the players to choose from on the night. The pre-gens not chosen become part of the NPC cast in the story.
Letting things go awry if part of the fun, often a character will become incapacitated, die, or behaviour too erratic for play so we have to upline one of the NPC cast to be used to keep a player engaged. I kinda play it as a harsh Murder-Mystery-almost Slasher and it's alot of fun.

So playing standard Call of Cthulhu and playing Pulp Cthulhu is almost two different games for us, they hit different beats

Depends on your GM how much anything is toned down or not, but having standard characters last the entire length of MoN or HotOE is a challenge - and if the GM hasn't pulled punches, then it's a player achievement!

 

[AsenRG]

Having said that, if your party survived with 10HP and 20 SAN between them, then they barely survived. I'm not sure the GMs are pulling their punches, because you group only had one more combat scene left in them before things would of went to the wall heh heh

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me there: the 5 characters in 5 different (pre-written) adventures had lost a total (not each) of <10 HP and <20 SAN at the end of the adventures.
Also, there was maybe a single mental sickness between them.

 

[Mankcam]

I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me there: the 5 characters in 5 different (pre-written) adventures had lost a total (not each) of <10 HP and <20 SAN at the end of the adventures.
Also, there was maybe a single mental sickness between them.

Yep totally gotchya now...wow

I think your GMs may possibly be pulling punches, becaue I think the system as written is pretty deadly.
Whenever we've played standard Call of Cthulhu with high combat scenarios, things have gotten pretty ugly for the investigators.

However if the investigators avoid direct combat options whenver they can, then things often turn out much better.
Given the more subdued nature of these scenarios then this can actually occur quite often, and is definately encouraged for surviving Call of Cthulhu.

Or maybe your investigators are just a bunch of pretty cool customers heh heh

 

[AsenRG]

Yep totally gotchya now...wow

I think your GMs may possibly be pulling punches, becaue I think the system as written is pretty deadly.

I hope not. I hate that!

Whenever we've played standard Call of Cthulhu with high combat scenarios, things have gotten pretty ugly for the investigators.

Well...how can you tell ahead of time?!?

However if the investigators avoid direct combat options whenver they can, then things often turn out much better.

Oh yes, that's always me!

Given the more subdued nature of these scenarios then this can actually occur quite often, and is definately encouraged for surviving Call of Cthulhu.

I guess the above explains it...

Or maybe your investigators are just a bunch of pretty cool customers heh heh

Not really, detectives, pulp fiction writers, an industrialist...
(Oh, and a couple of them were pre-gens, I just picked them for the adventure).

 

[Bilharzia]

To pickup on what Mankcam was saying in the other thread, Mythras being the defacto base system. I have noticed reading through "Destined" that it makes some refinements to the core rules, both in the rules themselves and in how they are expressed. Partly these changes look to have been made to fit a supers setting but I also think they are good changes that the core game could adopt as well. If you have Destined, don't skip the Skills, Combat and Spot Rules chapters. Of course character creation is different as well, but that is to be expected to fit the setting.

 

[Raleel]

Honestly, Bil and I agree on this. Destined shows a number of refinements that make it the very best Mythras to date, I think. Some notable things

• Each skill has bullet pointed critical and fumble examples (brief, easy to read)
• A few special effects are collapsed into one because they have very similar results (circumvent defense, press advantage)
• Inclusion of advice for investigations
• Free action partial moves

 

[Necrozius]

Each skill has bullet pointed critical and fumble examples (brief, easy to read)

To be fair, the Core Mythras book does this too, but not as nicely formatted (Destined and Classic Fantasy are much more nicely laid out and easy on the eyes with spacing and bolding text for emphasis, the CRB just puts all this into italicized sentences, which are harder to read and scan).

 

[Raleel]

To be fair, the Core Mythras book does this too, but not as nicely formatted (Destined and Classic Fantasy are much more nicely laid out and easy on the eyes with spacing and bolding text for emphasis, the CRB just puts all this into italicized sentences, which are harder to read and scan).

It does, though I think they are much more difficult to read with the bolding and explicit bullets. This is one reason why I say Destined is the best to date - the readability, even to someone who has no real problem with the book font or with the pocket edition of pathfinder 2e without my glasses, is MUCH better. I would be quite happy if the call out don’t (apparently a variant of Futura) was the new Mythras standard.

 

[Acmegamer]

Honestly, Bil and I agree on this. Destined shows a number of refinements that make it the very best Mythras to date, I think. Some notable things

• Each skill has bullet pointed critical and fumble examples (brief, easy to read)
• A few special effects are collapsed into one because they have very similar results (circumvent defense, press advantage)
• Inclusion of advice for investigations
• Free action partial moves

::tiptoes in:: How's the font type/size? I'm kinda over buying anything else from them if they continue on the bad choices with that. No matter how good I think the mechanics are. Lyonesse was a big improvement but still could have been better as an example.

 

[Raleel]

::tiptoes in:: How's the font type/size? I'm kinda over buying anything else from them if they continue on the bad choices with that. No matter how good I think the mechanics are. Lyonesse was a big improvement but still could have been better as an example.

Much of the text is the same 9-10 point font in core. However, a lot of it is not. All of the call outs are in a very good font. They used another one for headings which is quite clear as well (though doesn’t really match the core well. It looks better with the call outs).

Bil is better at this than I am, as he’s steeped in the graphics lore, but I do think the print out looks better and is easier to read than my core print. That could be a number of things coming into play.

Hopefully that screenshot will illustrate

 

[Bilharzia]

To be fair, the Core Mythras book does this too, but not as nicely formatted (Destined and Classic Fantasy are much more nicely laid out and easy on the eyes with spacing and bolding text for emphasis, the CRB just puts all this into italicized sentences, which are harder to read and scan).

The core rules have critical/fumble guidance but note also the rules have been changed in many cases:

Mythras First Aid

Destined:

All the skill descriptions are a lot more concise, and some of the detail has been moved to the Combat chapter or Spot Rules.

I just realised taking these, that the Bolded font used in Destined is a call-back to the "Elric!" rules which used the same font in the same way. (Lithos?)

 

[Bilharzia]

::tiptoes in:: How's the font type/size? I'm kinda over buying anything else from them if they continue on the bad choices with that. No matter how good I think the mechanics are. Lyonesse was a big improvement but still could have been better as an example.

There are some very slight differences with the main body text. It is still Baskerville, still 9 point but it is actually a different font and the vertical line spacing is slightly larger. The Destined font is slightly more readable and the line spacing helps with this as well.

I noticed Destined uses spacing to keep the text justified (which sometimes results in a lot of lines having big spaces. Mythras core rules uses a mix of hyphenations and some spacing which looks better. Personally, I don't think justified columns are necessary at all, I prefer just the left edge of the text straight, but that's me.

Raleel worked out the boxed text is Futura and it looks very very good. The readability at that size is fantastic and it suits the genre perfectly. Unfortunately the rest of the text is good ol' Baskerville, with the differences noted above. It is incredible that Futura dates from 1927 with the hilariously appropriate marketing slogan of "The Type of Today and To Morrow"

If you really want to nerd out on Futura, here is a discussion from the D&AD archives

http://c0026218.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/702120.mp4

 

[The Butcher]

It struck me recently that I've been quietly collecting Mythras books and putting them up on my gaming shelves. Help me decide which one to read and review next

Poll: Which Mythras book should I review next?

Nice review!

And seeing as you’re the author of Openquest —

What makes you choose either Mythras or Openquest as the system for a game? What would you say are the comparative strengths and weaknesses of each?

 

[Endless Flight]

The best looking TDM product by quite a bit is Lyonesse. I’ve gone on and on about how it’s one of the prettiest RPGs ever. Though even there the font isn’t large.

 

[Bilharzia]

The best looking TDM product by quite a bit is Lyonesse. I’ve gone on and on about how it’s one of the prettiest RPGs ever. Though even there the font isn’t large.

No argument there, Lyonesse is Mythras' best looking book. I think the font is still Baskerville, maybe a point larger with bigger line spacing as well.

 

[Raleel]

There are some very slight differences with the main body text. It is still Baskerville, still 9 point but it is actually a different font and the vertical line spacing is slightly larger. The Destined font is slightly more readable and the line spacing helps with this as well.

I noticed Destined uses spacing to keep the text justified (which sometimes results in a lot of lines having big spaces. Mythras core rules uses a mix of hyphenations and some spacing which looks better. Personally, I don't think justified columns are necessary at all, I prefer just the left edge of the text straight, but that's me.

Raleel worked out the boxed text is Futura and it looks very very good. The readability at that size is fantastic and it suits the genre perfectly. Unfortunately the rest of the text is good ol' Baskerville, with the differences noted above. It is incredible that Futura dates from 1927 with the hilariously appropriate marketing slogan of "The Type of Today and To Morrow"

If you really want to nerd out on Futura, here is a discussion from the D&AD archives

http://c0026218.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/702120.mp4

“Strong, clean” “pristine” “timeless”. This is what you want in a gaming book. I will even forgive the lack of ligatures.

 

[Necrozius]

My biggest issue with some Mythras books (depending on the printer) is text on dark grey backgrounds in tables. The Classic Fantasy book does this: a table row is a gradient from dark grey to white, which bugs the hell out of me for many reasons. If they ever do an update, I hope that they can change this global style. Zebra-striping in tables is fine as long as the text is easily readable.

The content is sooo good that I’m just nitpicking at this point, but hey, the ball is rolling.

 

[Mankcam]

Just wondering if anyone has any form-fillable versions of the most recent Mythras character sheet, and the most recent Mythras Imperative character sheet?
If so, I would love to have a copy



(see attachments for the ones I am describing)

 

[Bilharzia]

Just wondering if anyone has any form-fillable versions of the most recent Mythras character sheet, and the most recent Mythras Imperative character sheet?
If so, I would love to have a copy



(see attachments for the ones I am describing)

I would check in the discord #Resources-links channel as there are many

 

[Newt Newport]

What makes you choose either Mythras or Openquest as the system for a game? What would you say are the comparative strengths and weaknesses of each?

Without going into critical analysis which would be unfair to both games,

Basically, Mythras for me is the spiritual successor to RQ3, a game I loved dearly back in the late 80s and up to the late 90s, that clearly needed a logical tidying up. Mythras is that tidied-up game, and a little bit more I tend to use it for games where I want to be a bit more considered and adult.

While OQ is taking BRP Fantasy mainly from Stormbringer which I adored but found a bit broken in places and early Call of Cthulhu (Games Worksop did a lovely edition in the 80s), mixing it up with RQ3's three magic systems and taking it in all sorts of directions that my own house ruling takes it in. So OQ fits my own looser GMing style, without completely sacrificing rules and numbers

 

[Mankcam]

OQ = Le Guin/Feist
Mythras = Acrombie/Martin

That’s kinda how I see it

 

[Ossian]

I get a strong “coming of age” and classic fantasy fiction vibe from OpenQuest. I plan to use it to introduce RPGs to my children. I’d like to run things like Redwall, Prydain (Beyond the Wall and The Heroes Journey would be great resources), Lone Wolf, Dragon Warriors, and Lord of the Rings. One system to tell further stories in to go along with whatever fantasy fiction we’re reading at the time.

I also want to use OpenQuest for Dungeons for my kids to explore Thunder Rift and Mystara, for that B/X kind of game with what I consider better rules.

Then when they’re older, we can learn some history by playing through some of it with Mythras. Osprey books will be my friends.

Maybe we’ll also play some more gritty fantasy like Gemmell or Gwynne or our own creations.

We can even do an AD&D style campaign with Mythras Classic Fantasy.

It’s great being a d100 fan!

And even though I tried to raise ‘em right, one day, when they’re teenagers, they might make some friends who play official in-print D&D, and dad’s games won’t be cool anymore. But hopefully not…

 

[soltakss]

I shouldn't laugh at that, but it is really funny.

 

[raniE]

Further news from Sweden. Free League has unveiled the logo for the new Drakar och Demoner.


Personally, I don't like it. It feels flat, and a bit like the simplification happening to so many corporate logo now.

In comparison, these are all the old logos, and then the newest one at the bottom.

 

[Mankcam]

I don't mind it, but yeah some of those earlier logos have much more flavour

 

[raniE]

Also the D20 in the O feels a bit ... 20 years ago?

 

[Mankcam]

BRP Rules Query:

For those of you running and playing Mythras…do you find some of the Theism spells to be underpowered?

Theism is meant to be quite powerful

I am looking at the attack spells - Lightning, for instance, you spend an Action Pt, then it drains a Pt from the Devotional Pool, and inflicts 1D6 damage per 2pts of Intensity. Ignores mundane armour. The RQG version of the Rune Magic spell is almost identical, costing a Rune Pt to access it, as opposed to draining a Devotional Pool.

I know it can be powered up, but that ends up draining MP somewhat for minimal gain. The spell is instant, so it’s a one-trick pony.

Compare that to just swinging a shortsword. Use an Action Pt, but there is no MP cost, and you still do 1D6 per successful attack. Sure it has to contend with armour, but still it feels easier than casting magic.

I am considering making the Lightning spell 1D6 per Pt of Intensity (rather than per two Pts). I’m not sure if this breaks Mythras or RQG or not, so I am open to input on this if anyone else has considered this.

 

[Raleel]

BRP Rules Query:

For those of you running and playing Mythras…do you find some of the Theism spells to be underpowered?

Theism is meant to be quite powerful

I am looking at the attack spells - Lightning, for instance, you spend an Action Pt, then it drains a Pt from the Devotional Pool, and inflicts 1D6 damage per 2pts of Intensity. Ignores mundane armour. The RQG version of the Rune Magic spell is almost identical, costing a Rune Pt to access it, as opposed to draining a Devotional Pool.

I know it can be powered up, but that ends up draining MP somewhat for minimal gain. The spell is instant, so it’s a one-trick pony.

Compare that to just swinging a shortsword. Use an Action Pt, but there is no MP cost, and you still do 1D6 per successful attack. Sure it has to contend with armour, but still it feels easier than casting magic.

I am considering making the Lightning spell 1D6 per Pt of Intensity (rather than per two Pts). I’m not sure if this breaks Mythras or RQG or not, so I am open to input on this if anyone else has considered this.

I can’t say I’ve experienced a lot of theism, but we’ve had some and never felt it was remotely underpowered. Lighting doing likely 2-3 d6 to a single location no armor never felt bad, it felt like a location was going to be removed.

I don’t think it would break things, but I would consider that Mythras generally governs the damage numbers a bit and does more “ignore armor”. I think if anything, I’ve heard more complaints about the magic systems being too strong. Of course, this comes more from d&d players who are used to getting folk magic equivalent spells with staring characters rather than elementals that can engulf and do a d6 to every location at once

 

[Baragei]

I find most "combat magic" less impressive, primarily because of the game's generous resist-mechanics making it too much of a gamble.
One thing I don't feel need any buffs however, is theism's damage ranges. Lightning might be a "weak" spell doing "only" 2 or 3 d6 of damage, but it is very much capable of dissuading - permanently - any uncouth heretic within range.

 

[Raleel]

I find most "combat magic" less impressive, primarily because of the game's generous resist-mechanics making it too much of a gamble

I can see that. Risk reward is pretty high. Starting initiate maybe has 4 lightning bolts total

 

[Necrozius]

I guess it depends on what you want in your setting. If I wanted Theists to be regularly blasting foes with magic missiles and holy lightning (more than the default setting assumptions of the CRB), I'd just give Theists more points to use, or make it easier to recharge them.

But man, an attack that ignores armor? That's a big deal, honestly...

 

[Mankcam]

I just figured that it should be more potent, given that it drains Devotional Pool/ Rune Pts, and thus decreases the opportunity for how many times magic can be performed

Otherwise it does more or less the same as a sword strike or bow attack. Like its not bad, it ignores armour, and if cast at a higher intensity it can potentially be quite potent, but it kinda feels 1D6 per intensity is more reasonable than per 2 intensity

If there was no Devotional Pool drain then I would he fine with it, but draining the Devotional Pool limits the opportunity for casting, so I figured more back for the buck

In RQG I think everyone Initiate level and above can have up to their CHA in Rune Pts, so it isnt an issue as they have heaps of opportunities for casting Rune Magic during an adventure

(Too much. I feel that is way overpowered in RQG having Initates access Rune Magic so freely - I much prefer the more sensible approach in Mythras where Initiates have a Devotional Pool no greater than 1/4 POW, and this capacity increases with Cult rank)

I am not into having D&D style magic powers in Mythras fantasy, but these attack spells do exist for Theism, and no doubt the PCs will want them if they are available in their cult.

I guess I need to consider further before changing the intensity

 

[Raleel]

I just figured that it should be more potent, given that it drains Devotional Pool/ Rune Pts, and thus decreases the opportunity for how many times magic can be performed

Otherwise it does more or less the same as a sword strike or bow attack. Like its not bad, it ignores armour, and if cast at a higher intensity it can potentially be quite potent, but it kinda feels 1D6 per intensity is more reasonable than per 2 intensity

well, consider this. Under "standard" rules, you have to have a 50 in devotion and exhort to be an initiate, which is what is required for Lightning. Magnitude and Intesity are 1/10th of the Devotion score, rounded up. Let's say they are a career priest (the only way they can get those skills at character generation) with 15 points from career and 15 points from bonus in each. now he's got an 11 POW/INT/CHA. Right there he's already looking at an Intensity of 6.

So the lightning is doing 3d6 out of the gate with virtually no optimization outside of putting bonus points into your spellcasting.

Average on that is 10.5 (as we all know, literally off the top of our heads), which is enough to REMOVE legs, arms, and heads. Not serious wound, Major Wound, instantly, on most humans.

If there was no Devotional Pool drain then I would he fine with it, but draining the Devotional Pool limits the opportunity for casting, so I figured more back for the buck

well, i might say it has exactly the right amount if they have access to a temple. I suppose that is a matter of preference.

In RQG I think everyone Initiate level and above can have up to their CHA in Rune Pts, so it isnt an issue as they have heaps of opportunities for casting Rune Magic during an adventure

(Too much. I feel that is way overpowered in RQG having Initates access Rune Magic so freely - I much prefer the more sensible approach in Mythras where Initiates have a Devotional Pool no greater than 1/4 POW, and this capacity increases with Cult rank)

I am not into having D&D style magic powers in Mythras fantasy, but these attack spells do exist for Theism, and no doubt the PCs will want them if they are available in their cult.

I guess I need to consider further before changing the intensity

I would look at some other parameters, like ability to recharge. frequent access to temples allows them to recharge pretty quickly.