Cancel Re-rolls!

Ladybird

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I assumed the description of the player spending an inordinate amount of time looking for ways to modify the roll referred to the sorts of systems where you get dice modifiers like a +1 to the roll for different character/situational advantages. But I haven't seen a game where these external modifiers would be different on what is essentially the same roll. As I understand what you are describing, the second roll simply has a different internal scale of success - which wouldn't, I would think, involve the player spending any extraneous time looking for an advantage?
No, you're right, it's just an extra dice. I mentioned it though as it was the only example I could think of where the second roll was different to the first.
 

3rik

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I like CoC 7E's pushing where you roll a second time to represent going all out or being overt or risky with your approach making failure worse.
That seems reasonable but is it pretending the first attempt didn't happen or is it "Now I'm really trying to get this door open--and I don't give a :crap: how loud it is!"
No, 7E's pushing is a second attempt with greater consequences. It's a pretty good mechanic. It gives players an in-character option to retry a failed skill roll but represents doing something riskier. Ratchets up the tension a bit.
IME it doesn't always make sense in-game to make a second attempt, so the GM should be allowed to veto it. I also think it doesn't always make sense for a second attempt at something to be more risky, so the GM should be allowed to decide this. In CoC 7E one gets the impression that any roll can be "pushed" under all circumstances and always at a greater risk. I wouldn't rule it as such so I really didn't need a specific mechanic for it in the game.
 
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3rik

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Fortune points once used become Misfortune points for the Gamesmaster to use.
I have no problem with some type of Fortune points, but I hate when using them provides the GM with Misfortune points. As a GM I'll throw any misfortune I want at my players, regardless of the presence or use of any metacurrency.
 

Dumarest

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IME it doesn't always make sense in-game to make a second attempt, so the GM should be allowed to veto it. I also think it doesn't always make sense for a second attempt at something to be more risky, so the GM should be allowed to decide this. In CoC 7E one gets the impression that any roll can be "pushed" under all circumstances and always at a greater risk. I wouldn't rule it as such so I really didn't need a specific mechanic for it in the game.
No, I don't need a rule for it nor would I allow a second attempt if circumstances precluded such. Anyone could easily wing it, I would think, but all I know of the rule is what I've read here today. (The only Call of Cthulhu with which I'm familiar is the 3rd edition hardcover by Games Workshop. From what I gather, the Chaosium 7th edition sounds a bit more "Action Cthulhu!" than what I am used to.)
 

Séadna

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By default/RAW the GM can veto it:
When a skill roll is failed a player may attempt the roll again as a pushed roll, but only if they can justify to the Keeper what their investigator is doing to gain a second and final attempt
I should have mentioned my favourite part of it which is the effect on insane investigator's:
Anthropology Skill said:
Sample Consequences of failing a Pushed roll: being attacked or imprisoned by the people studied, due to some perceived transgression of their laws or social mores; suffering severe side-effects as the result of being involved in a ceremony which involved ingesting psychotropic plants.

If an insane investigator fails a pushed roll, he or she will be lost among the culture being studied, for example like Dennis Hopper’s photojournalist character in the film Apocalypse Now.
Electrical Repair said:
Sample Consequences of failing a Pushed roll: take damage from an electric shock; blow the fuses and plunge the building into darkness; wreck the thing you are working on beyond repair.

If an insane investigator fails a pushed roll, he or she attempts to harness the electrical power of living organisms into the device.
 

joetheok

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Only other thing I could figure is a player doing superstitious mumbo jumbo like rubbing the dice under their armpits first or something.
At least there is no call to borrow the player's dice on the part of the other players.

Seriously, though, I don't use a system that entails re-rolls, and don't like them as they get in the way of the narrative flow of the game. I am generally happy to let the players play at whatever speed they feel comfortable with, but I prefer they think and speak in narrative terms rather than game mechanic terms and keep that aspect of it to as simple a reportage as possible.

The idea of pushing a die roll is one of the main reasons I never adopted Call of Cthulhu 7th. 5th and 6th edition did everything I wanted and was perfect for the style of play I was after.
 

AsenRG

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Seriously, any mechanic that allows a GM or Player to re-roll a failed roll needs to go the way of the dodo!

Player "I shoot the baddie!"
GM "Roll shooty dice!"
Player rolls "I missed!...crap, I missed, how did I miss tha-"
GM "The bad guy points and laughs at you! He shouts at his henchm-"
Player "Wait! I have a Bennie!"
GM "Oh FFS! Okay, roll again!"
Player proceeds to fiddle around looking for any way to alter the die roll for two minutes...
Player finally rolls "I missed! Ah crud, really?!?"
Other players "What was happening???"

Yeah, Re-rolls need to go!

What do you think? I hate them!
I think that your group needs to be reminded that you don't get to alter the reroll in any way:thummbsup:. OTOH, rerolls can remain.
 

under_score

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IME it doesn't always make sense in-game to make a second attempt, so the GM should be allowed to veto it. I also think it doesn't always make sense for a second attempt at something to be more risky, so the GM should be allowed to decide this. In CoC 7E one gets the impression that any roll can be "pushed" under all circumstances and always at a greater risk. I wouldn't rule it as such so I really didn't need a specific mechanic for it in the game.
Yeah, definitely isn't always available in my game. I actually find it mostly comes up in social situations in my game, and I treat any second attempt at a social roll on an NPC as a push. For example, Investigator A tries to go in and Charm the desk sergeant to get access to the evidence room, fails, and then suggests that Investigator B try Intimidation - the desk sergeant's already been pestered so a second attempt from anyone is a push and likely to land the group in trouble. In play these are completely in-character discussions of how to approach and the potential consequences are evident in-character. It's not really a reroll mechanic, it's just a suggestion of consequences for continuing a failed route.
 

robiswrong

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Seriously, any mechanic that allows a GM or Player to re-roll a failed roll needs to go the way of the dodo!

Player "I shoot the baddie!"
GM "Roll shooty dice!"
Player rolls "I missed!...crap, I missed, how did I miss tha-"
GM "The bad guy points and laughs at you! He shouts at his henchm-"
Player "Wait! I have a Bennie!"
I hate this flow. I like Fate's idea of the "ellipsis trick".

Player: "I shoot the baddie!"
GM: "Roll shooty dice!"
Player: "Uh, oh, bad roll!"
GM: "Okay, as you line up to shoot, the baddie starts moving out of the way, fouling your aim..."
Player: <tosses in point> "I'm an experienced sniper. I expected that and compensate for his movement, lining up my gun with his movement."
GM: "Cool. You hit the baddie."

Rewinds suck.
 

Gabriel

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I have no problem with some type of Fortune points, but I hate when using them provides the GM with Misfortune points. As a GM I'll throw any misfortune I want at my players, regardless of the presence or use of any metacurrency.
Amen. I've vented before at my dislike of systems where you trade points/chits back and forth across the GM screen.

The kicker to it is that it makes things worse on the players. Any RPG is like a gambling den. The odds always favor the house. By giving the GM a free hit on the players every time the players use their luck, then it just tilts things more in the favor of the GM.
 

3rik

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Amen. I've vented before at my dislike of systems where you trade points/chits back and forth across the GM screen.

The kicker to it is that it makes things worse on the players. Any RPG is like a gambling den. The odds always favor the house. By giving the GM a free hit on the players every time the players use their luck, then it just tilts things more in the favor of the GM.
It also seems to limit the GM to throwing Misfortune at the players only if they spend Fortune. What happens if the group meta-decides to not spend any Fortune anymore?
 

finarvyn

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I especially hate when the combat has moved to the next character and the previous player suddenly remembers they could have used a fortune point or bennie or whatever and wants to reroll.
Well, in my games once we've moved onto the next character's turn it doesn't matter what the first character might remember that he COULD have done. That time has passed. I don't mine re-roll mechanics in my game (I use inspiration chips where players can choose to do this, or even spend it on another player's re-roll) but I won't undo another character's turn just because someone remembered that he could have done something a turn ago. Next time maybe he'll remember faster. :smile:
 

Vidgrip

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I prefer systems without rerolls. Partly, this is a matter of tone. I like gritty realism in which the hero (lower-case h) can, and often does, fail. I notice that many people also enjoy games in which the Hero (capital H) never fails, always defeats the baddie, and gets the girl. Rerolls help that happen, if that's what you are going for.

Rerolls do slow the game a bit. Players have to decide, usually get advice from other players or GM, pick up and roll again. It gets worse for a game where the rerolls are "lost" if you don't spend them by the end of the session. Then everyone is looking at the real-world clock and using remaining rerolls in the last scene. It's like timeouts in the last few minutes of an NFL football game.

While I like some of the descriptions I've read here, about making the reroll part of the narrative, I have never seen anyone actually do that at the table. It has always been very meta. I find any sort of meta currency reduces my immersion, rather than enhances it.

The "push, with a risk of negative consequences" is a better mechanic as long as the negative consequences are specific and serious enough to limit how often players elect to push. In Fria Ligan games, the consequence is specific and serious. Unfortunately in some of their titles, they tack-on a benefit to that failure or introduce an additional meta currency, creating other problems.
 

3rik

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Unfortunately in some of their titles, they tack-on a benefit to that failure or introduce an additional meta currency, creating other problems.
I think these are exactly the Free League games I have avoided. I only own Mutant Year Zero and Vaesen, am I safe?
 

Bilharzia

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I think these are exactly the Free League games I have avoided. I only own Mutant Year Zero and Vaesen, am I safe?
No, you're not. MYZ is the Ur-game with that principle. If you push and generate one or more failures (1s) you generate that many mutation points, and you get temporary stat damage at the same time. Mutant powers only work if you have 'banked' mutation points in this manner.

On the subject of re-rolls, I use Mythras Luck Points and they work fine. Since luck points are finite and limited per-session to 2-3 per player re-rolls are not frequent and when they are used it is usually at a decisive moment. Since you can use them to reverse a roll (turn a 91 into a 19) it's not always a re-roll. It's also perfectly possible for the GM to roll a critical "03", get a luck point spend to be asked to re-roll and roll another "03" (or 02, or 01) and roll another crit. It makes risky behaviour (such as adventuring!) in a lethal system like Mythras survivable without major magical intervention needed.

I have found it quite tuneable, so that you can let luck points refresh every session, regardless of circumstance, refresh every "adventure", refresh every "return to civilisation/safety", and you can allow group luck points as well as individual luck points.
 

3rik

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No, you're not. MYZ is the Ur-game with that principle. If you push and generate one or more failures (1s) you generate that many mutation points, and you get temporary stat damage at the same time. Mutant powers only work if you have 'banked' mutation points in this manner.
Oh well, as long as there's no Misfortune points generated that go to the GM.
 

Simlasa

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I don't like re-rolls, but I don't mind some sort of luck mechanic in a game where it seems fitting... like in DCC, Luck feels like a real in-setting commodity. My favorite things about it is that as you spend points of Luck, your Luck score goes down... which brings consequences. That adds an element of gambling and desperation to it. You're generally not guaranteed to get back any luck anytime soon. I've seen a number of PCs go down because they spent their Luck down too low.
I generally do not want luck/fate/bennies in horror games... or anything aiming to be 'gritty'. Though I don't mind Luck rolls in CoC... as a GM's option.
 

robiswrong

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I prefer systems without rerolls. Partly, this is a matter of tone. I like gritty realism in which the hero (lower-case h) can, and often does, fail. I notice that many people also enjoy games in which the Hero (capital H) never fails, always defeats the baddie, and gets the girl. Rerolls help that happen, if that's what you are going for.
FWIW, when I run Fate (which has a reasonable amount of reroll/adjust mechanics), I have the characters fail All Of The Time (though failure usually isn't "you die").

Fate Points are used less to ensure success, than they are to figure out where you are and are not willing to accept defeat.

Like, I warn players about this coming into my games so they prepared for it.

I'm not disagreeing with you in general, and there's a lot of Fate players that also are in the "heroes are awesome all of the time" camp. Which doesn't make sense to me, because that's not how things work in fiction anyway, and Fate deliberately aims to emulate fiction.

People are weird.
 

AsenRG

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Depends on what fiction you read...:evil:
Oh well, as long as there's no Misfortune points generated that go to the GM.
I thought the mutation points do exactly that when you spend them:shade:?
 

3rik

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Depends on what fiction you read...:evil:

I thought the mutation points do exactly that when you spend them:shade:?
IIRC they don't, but I'm not 100% certain. I hope not, though. GM Misfortune points generated by the players suck.
 

CRKrueger

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I find that re-rolls tend to increase my immersion rather than lessen it. Deciding to spend a benny in Savage Worlds or risk harm in Free League's house system is a kind of doubling down on my decision to take an action, so I feel more engaged in it. It also feels even worse when you still fail after making a re-roll. You put everything into an action and still lost.

Like @The Butcher, I've never noticed it adding much length to a game. When I ran Savage Worlds in person, my group didn't even announce they were re-rolling. On seeing they failed, they'd literally throw their benny right at me and roll again.

So far, I am talking about the way they work in more traditional systems. I find they are are also interesting in more narrative systems like Hillfolk. Actually, Hillfolk uses playing cards for resolution, not dice, so its technically a redraw not a reroll. Still I'm going to use it as my example. In Hillfolk, the GM flips over a card with the number and suit indicating success or failure. Anyone with an appropriate token can spend it to replace that card with another card. Each card replacement represents the ebb and flow of the action, with accompanying narration depending on the current card. It's an interesting way of resolving a conflict with a "single action" without it quite being a flat, single die roll.

The new Over the Edge uses a similar system (and uses actual dice for it). I'll be running that Wednesday night, so I'll see if it is successful as Hillfolk was.
It surely can get you more into the moment, it just depends on the player and the mechanic how well it merges into or grates against their immersion. Length of play certainly helps. FASA Shadowrun Karma spends and Mythras Luck Points and Passion bonuses have been totally internalized by me and mine.

I did like the “Buy extra dice and give the GM Doom points” mechanic of 2d20. I noticed that especially in combat, the players weren’t looking at it like a Narrative Throttle as much as throwing everything into an All Out Attack, damn the consequences. When making other checks, there seemed to be more of meta thought process behind it.

I’ll also say that playing 2d20 Conan when the players are always buying 3 dice and the GM has endless Doom to spend is a blast to play...blood-soaked and dynamic, heroic and gritty at the same time.
 

CRKrueger

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By default/RAW the GM can veto it:


I should have mentioned my favourite part of it which is the effect on insane investigator's:
Having different consequences for insane investigators was a nice touch. The mechanics seems to be designed well...if that’s the kind of thing you want.

Personally, I’m not a big fan of “INJECT DRAMA!“ mechanics, they just make my teeth itch. I’d prefer something more organic like a Push Roll that gave you a bonus to succeed, or doing the task in a short time frame or sub-optimal conditions but a chance of critical failures. That way the character is choosing to push his luck, knowing there is a chance of royally cocking things up. This would be a single roll, not something you could invoke to get a second chance at something. The way it’s set up now, it’s way too contrived as a literary or film trope...the character tries and fails, the monster gets closer, or whatever, the player tries again, frantically this time, but fails and X happens and now the character is in real trouble...bleah.
 

CRKrueger

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what have you done with CRK!?!?
Well, if you read my Playtest Review at the Pub or TheRPGSite (which has more discussion, including Jason Durall), you’ll know that the 2d20 Conan game actually went well, but, in the end, didn’t beat Mythras for a Conan campaign by the vote of my players. Too much meta, too many New School/Narrative/Forgie mechanics, despite some other really fun and flavorful aspects.

If my players voted 2d20, I would have rolled with it after folding, spindling, and mutilating the system, and I’d play it as is, if there was a GM willing. I think the system has a variety of serious design flaws, but can be wrangled into shape.

Butcher’s got an Apocalypse World kink, I guess 2d20 is mine. :devil:
 

Gringnr

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I'm not a big fan of meta-currencies or re-rolls as a rule. Some systems can pull it off without irritating me. James Bond 007, as an older example. Over the Edge 3e, as a newer example.
 

AsenRG

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While I like some of the descriptions I've read here, about making the reroll part of the narrative, I have never seen anyone actually do that at the table. It has always been very meta.
Well, that's why PbtA games have a rule that says "to do it, do it". If you want to use an ability, you've got to narrate it. If you can't, then this ability shouldn't be used now, even if it would be mechanically advantageous:devil:.
Yes, it makes mechanically-minded players scream bloody murder at first:tongue:.
And no, I don't care, despite having such in my group:shade:.
In the end, they all get used to it, especially under the firm, but benevolent controlling hand of a decent Referee that's willing to teach them:grin:!
 

robiswrong

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While I like some of the descriptions I've read here, about making the reroll part of the narrative, I have never seen anyone actually do that at the table. It has always been very meta. I find any sort of meta currency reduces my immersion, rather than enhances it.
Agreed. I'm not a huge fan of disconnected metacurrencies. Like I don't have the level of hate some do, but like Bennies in Savage Worlds just don't feel right to me.
 
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