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No, you're right, it's just an extra dice. I mentioned it though as it was the only example I could think of where the second roll was different to the first.I assumed the description of the player spending an inordinate amount of time looking for ways to modify the roll referred to the sorts of systems where you get dice modifiers like a +1 to the roll for different character/situational advantages. But I haven't seen a game where these external modifiers would be different on what is essentially the same roll. As I understand what you are describing, the second roll simply has a different internal scale of success - which wouldn't, I would think, involve the player spending any extraneous time looking for an advantage?
I like CoC 7E's pushing where you roll a second time to represent going all out or being overt or risky with your approach making failure worse.
That seems reasonable but is it pretending the first attempt didn't happen or is it "Now I'm really trying to get this door open--and I don't give a how loud it is!"
IME it doesn't always make sense in-game to make a second attempt, so the GM should be allowed to veto it. I also think it doesn't always make sense for a second attempt at something to be more risky, so the GM should be allowed to decide this. In CoC 7E one gets the impression that any roll can be "pushed" under all circumstances and always at a greater risk. I wouldn't rule it as such so I really didn't need a specific mechanic for it in the game.No, 7E's pushing is a second attempt with greater consequences. It's a pretty good mechanic. It gives players an in-character option to retry a failed skill roll but represents doing something riskier. Ratchets up the tension a bit.
I have no problem with some type of Fortune points, but I hate when using them provides the GM with Misfortune points. As a GM I'll throw any misfortune I want at my players, regardless of the presence or use of any metacurrency.Fortune points once used become Misfortune points for the Gamesmaster to use.
No, I don't need a rule for it nor would I allow a second attempt if circumstances precluded such. Anyone could easily wing it, I would think, but all I know of the rule is what I've read here today. (The only Call of Cthulhu with which I'm familiar is the 3rd edition hardcover by Games Workshop. From what I gather, the Chaosium 7th edition sounds a bit more "Action Cthulhu!" than what I am used to.)IME it doesn't always make sense in-game to make a second attempt, so the GM should be allowed to veto it. I also think it doesn't always make sense for a second attempt at something to be more risky, so the GM should be allowed to decide this. In CoC 7E one gets the impression that any roll can be "pushed" under all circumstances and always at a greater risk. I wouldn't rule it as such so I really didn't need a specific mechanic for it in the game.
When a skill roll is failed a player may attempt the roll again as a pushed roll, but only if they can justify to the Keeper what their investigator is doing to gain a second and final attempt
Anthropology Skill said:Sample Consequences of failing a Pushed roll: being attacked or imprisoned by the people studied, due to some perceived transgression of their laws or social mores; suffering severe side-effects as the result of being involved in a ceremony which involved ingesting psychotropic plants.
If an insane investigator fails a pushed roll, he or she will be lost among the culture being studied, for example like Dennis Hopper’s photojournalist character in the film Apocalypse Now.
Electrical Repair said:Sample Consequences of failing a Pushed roll: take damage from an electric shock; blow the fuses and plunge the building into darkness; wreck the thing you are working on beyond repair.
If an insane investigator fails a pushed roll, he or she attempts to harness the electrical power of living organisms into the device.
At least there is no call to borrow the player's dice on the part of the other players.Only other thing I could figure is a player doing superstitious mumbo jumbo like rubbing the dice under their armpits first or something.
I think that your group needs to be reminded that you don't get to alter the reroll in any way:thummbsup:. OTOH, rerolls can remain.Seriously, any mechanic that allows a GM or Player to re-roll a failed roll needs to go the way of the dodo!
Player "I shoot the baddie!"
GM "Roll shooty dice!"
Player rolls "I missed!...crap, I missed, how did I miss tha-"
GM "The bad guy points and laughs at you! He shouts at his henchm-"
Player "Wait! I have a Bennie!"
GM "Oh FFS! Okay, roll again!"
Player proceeds to fiddle around looking for any way to alter the die roll for two minutes...
Player finally rolls "I missed! Ah crud, really?!?"
Other players "What was happening???"
Yeah, Re-rolls need to go!
What do you think? I hate them!
Yeah, definitely isn't always available in my game. I actually find it mostly comes up in social situations in my game, and I treat any second attempt at a social roll on an NPC as a push. For example, Investigator A tries to go in and Charm the desk sergeant to get access to the evidence room, fails, and then suggests that Investigator B try Intimidation - the desk sergeant's already been pestered so a second attempt from anyone is a push and likely to land the group in trouble. In play these are completely in-character discussions of how to approach and the potential consequences are evident in-character. It's not really a reroll mechanic, it's just a suggestion of consequences for continuing a failed route.IME it doesn't always make sense in-game to make a second attempt, so the GM should be allowed to veto it. I also think it doesn't always make sense for a second attempt at something to be more risky, so the GM should be allowed to decide this. In CoC 7E one gets the impression that any roll can be "pushed" under all circumstances and always at a greater risk. I wouldn't rule it as such so I really didn't need a specific mechanic for it in the game.
Seriously, any mechanic that allows a GM or Player to re-roll a failed roll needs to go the way of the dodo!
Player "I shoot the baddie!"
GM "Roll shooty dice!"
Player rolls "I missed!...crap, I missed, how did I miss tha-"
GM "The bad guy points and laughs at you! He shouts at his henchm-"
Player "Wait! I have a Bennie!"
I have no problem with some type of Fortune points, but I hate when using them provides the GM with Misfortune points. As a GM I'll throw any misfortune I want at my players, regardless of the presence or use of any metacurrency.
It also seems to limit the GM to throwing Misfortune at the players only if they spend Fortune. What happens if the group meta-decides to not spend any Fortune anymore?Amen. I've vented before at my dislike of systems where you trade points/chits back and forth across the GM screen.
The kicker to it is that it makes things worse on the players. Any RPG is like a gambling den. The odds always favor the house. By giving the GM a free hit on the players every time the players use their luck, then it just tilts things more in the favor of the GM.
Yeah, Re-rolls need to go!
What do you think? I hate them!
Well, in my games once we've moved onto the next character's turn it doesn't matter what the first character might remember that he COULD have done. That time has passed. I don't mine re-roll mechanics in my game (I use inspiration chips where players can choose to do this, or even spend it on another player's re-roll) but I won't undo another character's turn just because someone remembered that he could have done something a turn ago. Next time maybe he'll remember faster.I especially hate when the combat has moved to the next character and the previous player suddenly remembers they could have used a fortune point or bennie or whatever and wants to reroll.
I think these are exactly the Free League games I have avoided. I only own Mutant Year Zero and Vaesen, am I safe?Unfortunately in some of their titles, they tack-on a benefit to that failure or introduce an additional meta currency, creating other problems.
I think these are exactly the Free League games I have avoided. I only own Mutant Year Zero and Vaesen, am I safe?
Oh well, as long as there's no Misfortune points generated that go to the GM.No, you're not. MYZ is the Ur-game with that principle. If you push and generate one or more failures (1s) you generate that many mutation points, and you get temporary stat damage at the same time. Mutant powers only work if you have 'banked' mutation points in this manner.
I prefer systems without rerolls. Partly, this is a matter of tone. I like gritty realism in which the hero (lower-case h) can, and often does, fail. I notice that many people also enjoy games in which the Hero (capital H) never fails, always defeats the baddie, and gets the girl. Rerolls help that happen, if that's what you are going for.
I thought the mutation points do exactly that when you spend them?Oh well, as long as there's no Misfortune points generated that go to the GM.
IIRC they don't, but I'm not 100% certain. I hope not, though. GM Misfortune points generated by the players suck.Depends on what fiction you read...
I thought the mutation points do exactly that when you spend them?
It surely can get you more into the moment, it just depends on the player and the mechanic how well it merges into or grates against their immersion. Length of play certainly helps. FASA Shadowrun Karma spends and Mythras Luck Points and Passion bonuses have been totally internalized by me and mine.I find that re-rolls tend to increase my immersion rather than lessen it. Deciding to spend a benny in Savage Worlds or risk harm in Free League's house system is a kind of doubling down on my decision to take an action, so I feel more engaged in it. It also feels even worse when you still fail after making a re-roll. You put everything into an action and still lost.
Like T The Butcher, I've never noticed it adding much length to a game. When I ran Savage Worlds in person, my group didn't even announce they were re-rolling. On seeing they failed, they'd literally throw their benny right at me and roll again.
So far, I am talking about the way they work in more traditional systems. I find they are are also interesting in more narrative systems like Hillfolk. Actually, Hillfolk uses playing cards for resolution, not dice, so its technically a redraw not a reroll. Still I'm going to use it as my example. In Hillfolk, the GM flips over a card with the number and suit indicating success or failure. Anyone with an appropriate token can spend it to replace that card with another card. Each card replacement represents the ebb and flow of the action, with accompanying narration depending on the current card. It's an interesting way of resolving a conflict with a "single action" without it quite being a flat, single die roll.
The new Over the Edge uses a similar system (and uses actual dice for it). I'll be running that Wednesday night, so I'll see if it is successful as Hillfolk was.
Umm, new to the internet?There's no badwrongfun. I personally like them. If they work for you, use them. If not, then don't.
Having different consequences for insane investigators was a nice touch. The mechanics seems to be designed well...if that’s the kind of thing you want.By default/RAW the GM can veto it:
I should have mentioned my favourite part of it which is the effect on insane investigator's:
what have you done with CRK!?!?I’ll also say that playing 2d20 Conan when the players are always buying 3 dice and the GM has endless Doom to spend is a blast to play...blood-soaked and dynamic, heroic and gritty at the same time.
Well, if you read my Playtest Review at the Pub or TheRPGSite (which has more discussion, including Jason Durall), you’ll know that the 2d20 Conan game actually went well, but, in the end, didn’t beat Mythras for a Conan campaign by the vote of my players. Too much meta, too many New School/Narrative/Forgie mechanics, despite some other really fun and flavorful aspects.what have you done with CRK!?!?
I only own Mutant Year Zero and Vaesen, am I safe?
Well, that's why PbtA games have a rule that says "to do it, do it". If you want to use an ability, you've got to narrate it. If you can't, then this ability shouldn't be used now, even if it would be mechanically advantageous.While I like some of the descriptions I've read here, about making the reroll part of the narrative, I have never seen anyone actually do that at the table. It has always been very meta.
While I like some of the descriptions I've read here, about making the reroll part of the narrative, I have never seen anyone actually do that at the table. It has always been very meta. I find any sort of meta currency reduces my immersion, rather than enhances it.
Sign me up in the Exalted kinks club,thank you!Butcher’s got an Apocalypse World kink, I guess 2d20 is mine.
I can relate, but not in this specific case.I'm sad about the mere existence of certain kinks.