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I would totally do a game set in Discworld's Unseen University using TFOS as the game engine.

I have the GURPS Discworld and Discworld, Too books but I couldn't vibe with the system. Discworld needs to be ridiculous and TFOS seems up to the task.
 
SJB said:
I’m sure neither you nor Baulderstone Baulderstone would use D&D. Obvs we’d all use Mythras!
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Nope, not all...as evidenced in the thread, Savage Worlds, Cepheus and BoL are all runner-ups.

SJB said:
My point was rather that D&D is already in the DNA of virtually all fantasy fiction produced since 1984 - anyone who tries to adapt IPs created since 1984 is playing D&D whether they want to or not.
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Right, that was exactly what I disagreed with, on three accounts.
1) Only poor fantasy, or books written for TSR/WotC settings (or both:devil:) uses all of the D&D conceits, and even then, I'm not sure all of them would be best represented by D&D.
Why the last part, you might ask (the first is obviously my personal opinion)?
Because D&D is usually piss-poor at representing any sequence of actions in a way that doesn't shatter suspension of disbelief...and I'm not even talking about "narratively compelling". So usually translating a D&D session in "narrative format" (meaning, in a text) requires some "massaging" of the text. (I should know, I liked writing AARs at one point). Thus, you end up...adding stuff that's not really represented in D&D, like at all, and in fact would be better represented in other systems.
OTOH, fantasy heroes tend to be much more omnicompetent than D&D characters of any class, which draws them further away from the game's conceits.
2) Most settings that take a page from D&D take just that...a page. "There are elves, and dwarves, and wizards and more powerful wizards can cast spells that less powerful wizards can't". That's about it...and many, many systems cover that as well (or better). But it's the ways those things relate to each other, and the details I didn't mention, that would make it D&D. Many authors change that.
3) Even many fantasy authors that go for games take a page from other games instead, including some that directly contradict some D&D lore. Like, you know, from MMORPGs, which don't have a "fire, then forget"/spells per day magic system. Instead, they use mana points.
Now, there are systems that use mana points, but not D&D. In D&D it's usually considered heresy. Or it's relegated to 1) monks and 2) an optional rule in 5e, AFAIK...but it's also a rule that I've never seen a 5e game using.
OTOH, the number of fantasy settings that use obvious mana points far outranks those where wizards have "spells per day".

SJB said:
I’ll have to leave it to other Pubbers to fill in the details since I’ve read exactly one page of whatever GoT is really called and one page of Potter. However, from general knowledge isn’t Westeros a bog standard D&D world?
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Only if you want to claim "every world that has knights and peasants and takes a page from late Medieval Europe is a bog standard D&D world".
Some differences: At the start of the books there's basically no magic other than some instances of blood magic and taking over the bodies of animals, almost no monsters (and definitely no wondering ones), no priests that can perform miracles, no non-human races...sorry, I don't call that a D&D world!

Granted some of that changes in later books, but it's basically "because of the actions of the PCs".
SJB said:
Surely the Potter children level up after each book?
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The Potter children are an especially poor model for that. Sure, they're gaining in power, but they're basically starting at an age where they shouldn't have a D&D class, and the books mostly end when they should be allowed to get 1st level (he's just shy of 18 at the end of the last book).

So it's not necessary to say they're gaining levels. They're literally growing up, of course they'd gain new abilities! That's what going to school is all about. And even the students that don't get involved with them are progressing, so it's not like they're progressing due to accumulating XP.

Besides, I gave you counter examples of well-received books that don't follow the D&D model: David Gemmell's works past 1984 (Bloodstone saga, Ironhand's daughter, Echoes of the Great Song, Dark Moon and Morningstar come to mind...because I'm seeing them on the shelf across the room. Not one of them would be well-served by D&D. In fact, there's at least one of those books whose setting would make no sense with a D&D magic system (Echoes) and two where using the D&D system probably wouldn't allow the plot to develop as it did (Dark Moon, Knights of Dark Renown).

Also, much fantasy I've read lately seems to be inspired by urban fantasy more than D&D. Protagonists often have vampiric or werewolf qualities, or demonic heritage, or what have you...and it's much more central to their powers than writing "Tiefling" on your character sheet is in D&D.

So, with all due respect, about the only books I can point to that would support your thesis, are the likes of Eragon. And I rate Eragon as third-class fantasy (or turd-class fantasy when I'm not feeling generous). Yes, I've read it, thanks to someone insisting I totally should (so I decided to humor her, and actually read it:tongue:).

SJB said:
Conjurer, Theurgist, Thaumaturgist, Magician, Enchanter, Warlock, Sorcerer, Wizard!
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No, sorry... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17...years old, not levels!
That was their "progression".
 
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cranebump said:
City of Heroes/Villains setting.
Probably Simon Washbourne’s Triumphant! (2nd edition).
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You can't go wrong with either Triumphant or Supers! Revised.

Also:

Tschai: Planet of Adventure by Jack Vance and I'd use OpenQuest, or mostly River of Heaven which was built from OpenQuest.
 
AsenRG said:
Nope, not all...as evidenced in the thread, Savage Worlds, Cepheus and BoL are all runner-ups.


Right, that was exactly what I disagreed with, on three accounts.
1) Only poor fantasy, or books written for TSR/WotC settings (or both:devil:) uses all of the D&D conceits, and even then, I'm not sure all of them would be best represented by D&D.
Why the last part, you might ask (the first is obviously my personal opinion)?
Because D&D is usually piss-poor at representing any sequence of actions in a way that doesn't shatter suspension of disbelief...and I'm not even talking about "narratively compelling". So usually translating a D&D session in "narrative format" (meaning, in a text) requires some "massaging" of the text. (I should know, I liked writing AARs at one point). Thus, you end up...adding stuff that's not really represented in D&D, like at all, and in fact would be better represented in other systems.
OTOH, fantasy heroes tend to be much more omnicompetent than D&D characters of any class, which draws them further away from the game's conceits.
2) Most settings that take a page from D&D take just that...a page. "There are elves, and dwarves, and wizards and more powerful wizards can cast spells that less powerful wizards can't". That's about it...and many, many systems cover that as well (or better). But it's the ways those things relate to each other, and the details I didn't mention, that would make it D&D. Many authors change that.
3) Even many fantasy authors that go for games take a page from other games instead, including some that directly contradict some D&D lore. Like, you know, from MMORPGs, which don't have a "fire, then forget"/spells per day magic system. Instead, they use mana points.
Now, there are systems that use mana points, but not D&D. In D&D it's usually considered heresy. Or it's relegated to 1) monks and 2) an optional rule in 5e, AFAIK...but it's also a rule that I've never seen a 5e game using.
OTOH, the number of fantasy settings that use obvious mana points far outranks those where wizards have "spells per day".


Only if you want to claim "every world that has knights and peasants and takes a page from late Medieval Europe is a bog standard D&D world".
Some differences: At the start of the books there's basically no magic other than some instances of blood magic and taking over the bodies of animals, almost no monsters (and definitely no wondering ones), no priests that can perform miracles, no non-human races...sorry, I don't call that a D&D world!

Granted some of that changes in later books, but it's basically "because of the actions of the PCs".

The Potter children are an especially poor model for that. Sure, they're gaining in power, but they're basically starting at an age where they shouldn't have a D&D class, and the books mostly end when they should be allowed to get 1st level (he's just shy of 18 at the end of the last book).

So it's not necessary to say they're gaining levels. They're literally growing up, of course they'd gain new abilities! That's what going to school is all about. And even the students that don't get involved with them are progressing, so it's not like they're progressing due to accumulating XP.

Besides, I gave you counter examples of well-received books that don't follow the D&D model: David Gemmell's works past 1984 (Bloodstone saga, Ironhand's daughter, Echoes of the Great Song, Dark Moon and Morningstar come to mind...because I'm seeing them on the shelf across the room. Not one of them would be well-served by D&D. In fact, there's at least one of those books whose setting would make no sense with a D&D magic system (Echoes) and two where using the D&D system probably wouldn't allow the plot to develop as it did (Dark Moon, Knights of Dark Renown).

Also, much fantasy I've read lately seems to be inspired by urban fantasy more than D&D. Protagonists often have vampiric or werewolf qualities, or demonic heritage, or what have you...and it's much more central to their powers than writing "Tiefling" on your character sheet is in D&D.

So, with all due respect, about the only books I can point to that would support your thesis, are the likes of Eragon. And I rate Eragon as third-class fantasy (or turd-class fantasy when I'm not feeling generous). Yes, I've read it, thanks to someone insisting I totally should (so I decided to humor her, and actually read it:tongue:).


No, sorry... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17...years old, not levels!
That was their "progression".
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You have the advantage of having read the stuff! So I concede on all points of detail.

The interwebs tell me that this is a sensitive subject. The Witcher guy seems to get really shirty if anyone suggests he’s writing D&D gamefic.

Legend was published in 1984, so can’t be downstream of Dragonlance. I’d also throw in Robert Holdstock’s Mythago Wood also in 1984. Up to that point there was clearly a British tradition unaffected by American games. Both Gemmell and Holdstock were born in 1948 so their intellectual formation way pre-dates D&D. Indeed Holdstock was a formidably good fantasy hack writer who probably influenced D&D (certainly British D&D) rather than vice versa.
 
Robert Holdstock, Mythago Wood (1984), Call of Cthulhu? Kingdom for sedimented deep history? Possibly ungameable? Any ideas?
 
Amber novels by Roger Zelazny.

No idea as to the system as I'm not a huge fan of FATE or the orginal Diceless system it came out with; even though I had loads of fun with it back in the day. It has to be able to scale well and have quite subtle powers in it that affect the game world in not always visible albeit significant ways (eg, probability manipulation, power over the fabric of the multiverse, traversing Shadow, etc). I'm thinking a card based system, using variable hand sizes, would be the way to go and would also fit in with tarot/Trump references in the book.
 
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SJB said:
You have the advantage of having read the stuff! So I concede on all points of detail.
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Well, yeah, I find it useful when discussing fantasy.

SJB said:
The interwebs tell me that this is a sensitive subject. The Witcher guy seems to get really shirty if anyone suggests he’s writing D&D gamefic.
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And he's right, because he's not. According to what I've heard, the games that inspired him were houseruled WFRP...:devil:

SJB said:
Legend was published in 1984, so can’t be downstream of Dragonlance. I’d also throw in Robert Holdstock’s Mythago Wood also in 1984. Up to that point there was clearly a British tradition unaffected by American games. Both Gemmell and Holdstock were born in 1948 so their intellectual formation way pre-dates D&D. Indeed Holdstock was a formidably good fantasy hack writer who probably influenced D&D (certainly British D&D) rather than vice versa.
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Alas, I'm not familiar with Holdstock's work, so I can't comment on it.
Any other examples of at least reasonably popular D&D-like fantasy you could suggest, and which wouldn't be the direct results of D&D campaigns? Give me a list and there are decent odds I might have read at least some of them...

But I'd note that while D&D would IMO be a poor mechanical system for Legend, Legend is probably the Gemmell's book that D&D has the best odds of "reproducing".
However, according to your theory, his later books should be closer to D&D, while I find that the exact opposite is true - his later books, especially the non-series ones, are further away from D&D...which, to me, isn't supporting the theory:shade:.
 
AsenRG said:
Nope, not all...as evidenced in the thread, Savage Worlds, Cepheus and BoL are all runner-ups.


Right, that was exactly what I disagreed with, on three accounts.
1) Only poor fantasy, or books written for TSR/WotC settings (or both:devil:) uses all of the D&D conceits, and even then, I'm not sure all of them would be best represented by D&D.
Click to expand...

Yes, even the Deed of Paksenarrion series which to me feels like someone took D&D and make a good (to me) book from the idea without being too concerned with it being actually "D&D." It gets how I feel D&D should look when run (if it had a better system, don't get me wrong, I like some iterations of D&D, but honestly there are better systems.) It ditches conceits for the sake of a decent story of the rise of a heroine from sheepherder's child to mercenary (Fighter) then Paladin.
 
Supernatural/Truth Seekers - Hunter the Reckoning 5th ed.

Normal folks, some slight advantages investigating weird stuff and suffering for their interference.

Neverwhere - Changeling the Dreaming.

Give the different characters different kiths and it basically writes itself.
 
AsenRG said:
Well, yeah, I find it useful when discussing fantasy.


And he's right, because he's not. According to what I've heard, the games that inspired him were houseruled WFRP...:devil:


Alas, I'm not familiar with Holdstock's work, so I can't comment on it.
Any other examples of at least reasonably popular D&D-like fantasy you could suggest, and which wouldn't be the direct results of D&D campaigns? Give me a list and there are decent odds I might have read at least some of them...

But I'd note that while D&D would IMO be a poor mechanical system for Legend, Legend is probably the Gemmell's book that D&D has the best odds of "reproducing".
However, according to your theory, his later books should be closer to D&D, while I find that the exact opposite is true - his later books, especially the non-series ones, are further away from D&D...which, to me, isn't supporting the theory:shade:.
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The other exemplar of the British tradition I had in mind was Alan Garner (b. 1934) who published The Weirdstone of Brisingamen in 1960. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t foundational for Gemmell (and indeed Rowling). One wouldn’t even need to do much work for a D&D campaign. One could just pluck Beyond The Wall off the shelf and be ready to go.
 
SJB said:
The other exemplar of the British tradition I had in mind was Alan Garner (b. 1934) who published The Weirdstone of Brisingamen in 1960. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t foundational for Gemmell (and indeed Rowling). One wouldn’t even need to do much work for a D&D campaign. One could just pluck Beyond The Wall off the shelf and be ready to go.
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But that's pre-1984, and indeed pre-1973? Obviously it couldn't possibly have suffered any influence by D&D, if anything, it would be in the other direction (as you yourself noted)!
So that doesn't prove anything about the modern fantasy being strongly influenced by D&D:thumbsup:.

SJB said:
View attachment 47701
Who the heck am I kidding.

Setting: Raven Swordmistress of Chaos.
System: Mythras

Richard Kirk = Robert Holdstock


View attachment 47700
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That seems like a great setting for any d100 system, kinda reminding me of Stormbringer...:devil:
 
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Regardless of the IP at hand, my wishful answer is usually Mythras but I end up reaching for Savage Worlds because it requires less prep.

I adore D&D but outside of a ready-made hack like SWN I only use it for “straight” D&D. Traveller (Classic, Mongoose, Cepheus) feels more robustly adaptable but I am not quite as facile with it.
 
The Butcher said:
Regardless of the IP at hand, my wishful answer is usually Mythras but I end up reaching for Savage Worlds because it requires less prep.
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This is exactly me. I usually start with Mythras (in my mind) for everything because it's a system I love. Then 90% of the time I end up with Savage Worlds (another system I love) simply because it gets where I want to be with a lot less work (and my players prefer it over Mythras for its speed of play).
 
AsenRG said:
But that's pre-1984, and indeed pre-1973? Obviously it couldn't possibly have suffered any influence by D&D, if anything, it would be in the other direction (as you yourself noted)!
So that doesn't prove anything about the modern fantasy being strongly influenced by D&D:thumbsup:.


That seems like a great setting for any d100 system, kinda reminding me of Stormbringer...:devil:
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Righty-ho..

So the challenge is:

1. Not anything based on D&D, so Dragonlance, Malazan, the purple elf guy, etc. are out.
2. Must however be shaped by D&D DNA.
3. You have read them.

Challenges for me to overcome.

1. Dragonlance killed my interest in fantasy fiction stone dead, so I’d probably prefer colonic irrigation to reading any of this stuff.

Resources available to me:

Dr Google

OK, I’ll give it a shot.

There is a Time top 100 fantasy novels ever written. Very few of them post-date 1984. Those that do are YA or written by someone called N. K. Jemisin. But that’s critics for you.

What about sales?

Well Potter just crushes all other post-1984 created fantasy sales. Game of Thrones is very popular. So if you won’t buy as D&D, I’ve failed.

However, how about these winners? They sound like AD&D 2e to me.

Terry Goodkind, The Sword of Truth. There’s 21 books.

Robert Jordan, The Wheel of Time. The poor bastard died and they kept churning out. His amanuensis, some bloke called Brandon Sanderson, seems to have gone on to crazy success too.

I rest my case, m’lud.
 
SJB said:
Personally, I’d argue that this conceit fails for any fantasy story (all media) produced after 1984 because the whole genre became game derivative. Everything already has D&D coded into its DNA.
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Interesting faulty premise but bold in it’s wrongness. I applaud the audacity of publicly stating such foolishness.
 
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SJB said:
Righty-ho..

So the challenge is:

1. Not anything based on D&D, so Dragonlance, Malazan, the purple elf guy, etc. are out.
2. Must however be shaped by D&D DNA.
3. You have read them.

Challenges for me to overcome.

1. Dragonlance killed my interest in fantasy fiction stone dead, so I’d probably prefer colonic irrigation to reading any of this stuff.

Resources available to me:

Dr Google

OK, I’ll give it a shot.

There is a Time top 100 fantasy novels ever written. Very few of them post-date 1984. Those that do are YA or written by someone called N. K. Jemisin. But that’s critics for you.

What about sales?

Well Potter just crushes all other post-1984 created fantasy sales. Game of Thrones is very popular. So if you won’t buy as D&D, I’ve failed.

However, how about these winners? They sound like AD&D 2e to me.

Terry Goodkind, The Sword of Truth. There’s 21 books.

Robert Jordan, The Wheel of Time. The poor bastard died and they kept churning out. His amanuensis, some bloke called Brandon Sanderson, seems to have gone on to crazy success too.

I rest my case, m’lud.
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The wheel of time fits D&D as well as a foot long cactus fits my ass, yet they did try to shove it up there, haven’t read Goodkind but Sandersons many and varied magical settings do not fit the D&D round hole…again I’m sure they’d try.

Game of Thrones is Martin wishing he could write like Cornwall but failing.
 
The Butcher said:
More Maurice Druon than Bernard Cornwall (by his own admission), but either way filtered by the mind of a 13-year-old edgelord.

GRRM actually held everyone’s attention for quite a bit of time, then blew it.
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I read book one then lost interest, the only Martin thing I’ve enjoyed is Wildcards but he didn’t write that just tried to look like he did.

Wildcards, also not a DND setting.
 
I think BRP/Mythras would be a great fit for Steven Brust's Dragaera series, maybe with Pendragon's passion system added for Dragaeran House personality traits. It would do skilled, capable protagonists who still face getting taken out by one lucky (or skilled) blow, ubiquitous but relatively low-level magic, entirely different magic systems co-existing, and could provide enough mechanical distinction between a crowd of assassins and still provide ample room for a noble archmage who also swings around a sword that will drink your soul.
 
SoManyRats said:
I think BRP/Mythras would be a great fit for Steven Brust's Dragaera series, maybe with Pendragon's passion system added for Dragaeran House personality traits. It would do skilled, capable protagonists who still face getting taken out by one lucky (or skilled) blow, ubiquitous but relatively low-level magic, entirely different magic systems co-existing, and could provide enough mechanical distinction between a crowd of assassins and still provide ample room for a noble archmage who also swings around a sword that will drink your soul.
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They actually have an official supplement for the Dragaera series for Blades in the Dark.
 
Baulderstone said:
So you don't want to read any post-1984 fantasy? You just want to explain why you know more about than people that have?
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OK, that and Llew ap Hywel Leon ap Hywel 's statements were funny:grin:!

Let me answer in a more, ahem, civil fashion, though.

SJB said:
Righty-ho..

So the challenge is:

1. Not anything based on D&D, so Dragonlance, Malazan, the purple elf guy, etc. are out.
2. Must however be shaped by D&D DNA.
3. You have read them.
Click to expand...
Well, not quite, but close.
1. Not anything that's the result of a D&D setting or campaign, because that proves nothing about the genre as a whole. That much is true, and I don't dispute that works based off D&D would be likely to carry D&D DNA (unless they were so strongly houseruled that they no longer do, which, funny enough, seems to have happened at least to Malazan and Draegara series. If anything, Malazan reminds me of Fate, and Draegara, of a Mythras game:tongue:).

2. Not sure if it's correct to state it like this. "The setting must strongly follow D&D's default assumptions, making D&D itself the optimal system for playing in it, without having been shaped initially by D&D's directly-transmitted DNA" is IMO closer to what I had in mind.

3. Well, obviously that's NOT necessary for you to make the argument...but I could neither agree nor disagree with your argument unless I have read them, right? I mean, your assessment might be one I'd agree with after reading the book in question, or it might be one I'd disagree with after reading it. We can't really know.
So, it's a practical requirement, though I don't feel comfortable with having to insist on it. But then, if you wait for me to read them...given my backlog, this discussion might have to get a couple months of delay!

Also, 4. it ain't complete crap. I'm afraid I'd have to insist on that one!

SJB said:
Challenges for me to overcome.

1. Dragonlance killed my interest in fantasy fiction stone dead, so I’d probably prefer colonic irrigation to reading any of this stuff.
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...then what are you basing your assessment off of, man? I mean, if you haven't read most fantasy fiction post 1984, how can you judge it?
Sorry, I really can't help you here. I mean, if I was seeing good arguments in favour of your theory, I wouldn't have disputed it in the first place.

SJB said:
Resources available to me:

Dr Google

OK, I’ll give it a shot.

There is a Time top 100 fantasy novels ever written. Very few of them post-date 1984. Those that do are YA or written by someone called N. K. Jemisin. But that’s critics for you.
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On the same list, there's also The Rage of Dragons, American Gods, Mistborn, Empire of Sand...
Of those, I have read American Gods and Mistborn...and now I want to read Empire of Sand, but see above re: backlog.

Mistborn is pretty much away from D&D. There is a licensed RPG for Mistborn and it uses its own system for a reason.

American Gods is so far removed from D&D it ain't even funny.

Empire of Sand...let's say I wouldn't put it on my list if it seemed influenced by D&D. Those seldom turn out to be of any interest to me, I'd say (after having suffered through 9 Dark Elves and 4 Dragonlances, not to mention a random number of TSR-era books...exactly 1 of which turned out to be interesting).

The Rage of Dragons I can't tell anything about by the reviews I read, but it doesn't seem that interesting, despite the protagonist wanting to become the best swordsman alive.
Bottom line: 2 out of 4 are definitely not in the list of "best played with D&D", and for 2, we don't know. That's not good stats for you.

SJB said:
What about sales?

Well Potter just crushes all other post-1984 created fantasy sales. Game of Thrones is very popular. So if you won’t buy as D&D, I’ve failed.
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Sorry, having read both, neither fits. I think I addressed my reasons in the previous post.

SJB said:
However, how about these winners? They sound like AD&D 2e to me.

Terry Goodkind, The Sword of Truth. There’s 21 books.
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I've only read a couple, but don't remember details. It seemed "too strongly inspired" by Wheel of Time... and that, by itself, would mean D&D is not a good fit.
But it might be done with relatively less effort. Start by ditching the magic system and replacing it with a mana point one...then live with the fact that according to many people this would mean "you're no longer playing D&D":devil:...then retouch the combat system to make it less armour-dependent and more skill-dependent...
And at this point, of course, you're well within your rights to ask yourself "why didn't I start with something closer, like RuneQuest/Mythras or GURPS":tongue:.
So D&D is not OPTIMAL for the setting, but it could be done.

SJB said:
Robert Jordan, The Wheel of Time. The poor bastard died and they kept churning out. His amanuensis, some bloke called Brandon Sanderson, seems to have gone on to crazy success too.

I rest my case, m’lud.
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I've read the first 10 books of the Wheel of Time, maybe I should finish the series (but that by itself should be enough, the first 10 books are over 5000 pages IIRC).
And Wheel of Time is actually my go-to example for "a high-magic fantasy setting that D&D would suck for". Do you want a detailed analysis of the reasons?
Because we'd have to start with everything listed above for The Sword of Truth (but changes to the combat system would need to be much more profound or you basically can't get the protagonist to achieve what he did...) and go from there. For now, let me just say that on top of definitely needing a mana points magic system that needs to also tie with exhaustion...let's just say that a setting where learning a specific restricted skill makes you better at both spellcasting, shooting and swinging a sword isn't prime material for a class-based system!
When is said skill introduced? Why, in Book 1, of course, the protagonist uses it all the damn time!

So, to quote Llew ap Hywel Leon ap Hywel "The wheel of time fits D&D as well as a foot long cactus fits my ass".
 
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Fenris-77 said:
Malazan is only peripherally 'based on' D&D and D&D would be a terrible system to run it in. Same goes for WoT. Vancian magic is a very square peg in terms of overall fantasy holes it might try to fill
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You're our resident Malazan expert (I only got to book 5 before getting bored), so I'm glad we have an agreement:thumbsup:.

And the AC being based on armour is another huge conceptual wrinkle for those settings.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Malazan is only peripherally 'based on' D&D and D&D would be a terrible system to run it in. Same goes for WoT. Vancian magic is a very square peg in terms of overall fantasy holes it might try to fill
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When you take into account Warrens it becomes really hard to do in most systems. I was trying to make a system around that, and as you learn more about them, it makes it that much more complicated, IMO.
 
Fenris-77 said:
Vancian magic is a very square peg in terms of overall fantasy holes it might try to fill
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Incidentally, I've never read Vance, nor cared enough about D&D magic to really understand how it works, but I've heard it argued that what typically gets called "Vancian magic" in RPG discussions is pretty different from magic as described in Vance's fiction.
 
E-Rocker said:
Incidentally, I've never read Vance, nor cared enough about D&D magic to really understand how it works, but I've heard it argued that what typically gets called "Vancian magic" in RPG discussions is pretty different from magic as described in Vance's fiction.
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Actually yes, but Vance isn't post-1984, so his works are kinda irrelevant:thumbsup:!

chuckdee said:
When you take into account Warrens it becomes really hard to do in most systems. I was trying to make a system around that, and as you learn more about them, it makes it that much more complicated, IMO.
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True, why else do you think I'd use Fate:shade:?
 
chuckdee said:
They actually have an official supplement for the Dragaera series for Blades in the Dark.
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Sorry, but I'm going to go off on this a bit.

I backed Blades in the Dark at a fairly high level specifically because of the stretch goal of a Dragaera supplement. What was promised:

Blades of the Jhereg: The underworld of Adrilankha is ruled by a council of five ruthless bosses, known as the Right Hand of the Jhereg. You and your crew of scoundrels have been given a tiny piece of turf and are expected to impress them with your greed and opportunism. Will you rise to power in the Organization or be strangled by your ambitious rivals?

Blades of the Jhereg is an official licensed supplement for Blades in the Dark featuring the world of Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos novels (Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, Taltos, etc.). The playset will include the character and crew types, NPCs, factions, situations, maps, and additional rules needed to play the exploits of a Jhereg criminal enterprise in Adrinlankha. Just remember to keep an eye out for that upstart Easterner. People say he's trouble. By John Harper (with editorial oversight from Steven Brust).
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That's not what was provided. It wasn't by John Harper (no slight on the actual author of the supplement, just noting). The entire supplement is 15 pages long including cover, 8 of which (more than half) are character and crew types (one crew type). No NPCs or maps at all. No factions, just a short couple of paragraphs saying that factions are organizations that are synonymous with their leaders. One starting situation and three one-line score ideas. Again, no maps at all.

The rules for magic are half a page, plus specific abilities on the Sorcerer character type sheet (with details about teleport blocks and revivification, for example).

The setting info given is half a page. There's a one-page point-form summary of Dragaeran House traits. "That upstart Easterner" isn't even named except in the "Based on the Vlad Taltos novels by Steven Brust" note. Setting information that should be included in specific rules simply isn't (e.g. the sorcerer rules for revivification (I always have to force myself to stop typing 'v' when I go for that word :errr:) don't mention non-magical methods to prevent your victim getting raised, the witch sheet has an ability to take a second familiar without any mention of how incredibly unusual it was for Vlad to do so).

The supplement is fine if I have a group of people who already familiar with the setting and want to play Blades in the Dark. If they're not already fans of the novels, I'd have to fill in a lot of background information. If we're not playing Blades in the Dark, it's basically no help for setting up a campaign in another system, unlike classic GURPS setting books which had so much info the only work was mechanical (the one-page House traits is a nice summary but it's basically just a summary of what's already on the Fandom page).

Now I understand that this was a stretch goal to a Kickstarter project so I understand that it was never a sure thing. You pays your money and you takes your chances. And I understand that, especially for the first project (at least on Kickstarter) by the creator, dealing with adaptation rights of an intellectual property that is still in active publication is going to be challenging, and the project may fall through or suffer from unforeseen limitations. Intellectually I know all this. And I know that hoping for a full-on feature-length GURPS-style supplement as a stretch goal may be unrealistic. And I know that the final product is clearly a labour of love by the creator of the supplement.

But still. The disappointment with the final result has thoroughly soured me on the whole Blades system so much that I haven't read the game I bought and have an irrational emotional resistance to even trying it if someone else were to run it. It's unreasonable, I know, I get that.

I love the novels and would love to play in the setting. My group hasn't read the novels and all have busy(ish) lives. Read a background gazeteer on the setting as pre-game homework? Sure, that's doable. Start reading the main series, which is right now at 15 books (that are readable in either story-chronological or publication date order, but those two don't line up), and maybe the related romances (6 hefty books)? I've recommended that already just because they're great books, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the group to have that time for pre-game prep. And I'm not a fan of the Blades system (I get how the combination meta-currency/health points works to push a feeling of desperation and how you're supposed to play a character like you'd drive a stolen car and all that, it's just not for me).

I was hoping for something with maps and character intros and setting information that could give me reminders of details and could show people new to the world what it might look like. I was hoping for something that I could use to adapt to another system that I might prefer. I admit, I was hoping for someone to do all the work for me, so I could just give it to my players and say "how would you feel about doing this next?" and have everyone ready to dive in.

What I got was a brief pamphlet that relied on thorough pre-existing familiarity with the books and was locked to the Blades system. It's not what I was hoping for, it's not helpful or useful for me, and it's also not what was promised. And (as you might be able to tell) I'm still a bit bitter about that. :smile:
 
Blades in the Dark, like a lot of Kickstarter projects during that time, was a victim of Stretch Goal bloat, i.e. where they continue to put out stretch goals, even though there's a lot of additional content, just caught up in the momentum of the project.

Many people didn't fulfill their obligations. Blades of the Jhereg was the final stretch goal (I think because Brust was a fan of what BitD was doing). I'm amazed that they even got the number of goals done, and most were of the quality that they were. I understand if that's the only reason you backed, but in all honesty, there was more than enough value for the money.
 
SoManyRats said:
Sorry, but I'm going to go off on this a bit.

I backed Blades in the Dark at a fairly high level specifically because of the stretch goal of a Dragaera supplement. What was promised:



That's not what was provided. It wasn't by John Harper (no slight on the actual author of the supplement, just noting). The entire supplement is 15 pages long including cover, 8 of which (more than half) are character and crew types (one crew type). No NPCs or maps at all. No factions, just a short couple of paragraphs saying that factions are organizations that are synonymous with their leaders. One starting situation and three one-line score ideas. Again, no maps at all.

The rules for magic are half a page, plus specific abilities on the Sorcerer character type sheet (with details about teleport blocks and revivification, for example).

The setting info given is half a page. There's a one-page point-form summary of Dragaeran House traits. "That upstart Easterner" isn't even named except in the "Based on the Vlad Taltos novels by Steven Brust" note. Setting information that should be included in specific rules simply isn't (e.g. the sorcerer rules for revivification (I always have to force myself to stop typing 'v' when I go for that word :errr:) don't mention non-magical methods to prevent your victim getting raised, the witch sheet has an ability to take a second familiar without any mention of how incredibly unusual it was for Vlad to do so).

The supplement is fine if I have a group of people who already familiar with the setting and want to play Blades in the Dark. If they're not already fans of the novels, I'd have to fill in a lot of background information. If we're not playing Blades in the Dark, it's basically no help for setting up a campaign in another system, unlike classic GURPS setting books which had so much info the only work was mechanical (the one-page House traits is a nice summary but it's basically just a summary of what's already on the Fandom page).

Now I understand that this was a stretch goal to a Kickstarter project so I understand that it was never a sure thing. You pays your money and you takes your chances. And I understand that, especially for the first project (at least on Kickstarter) by the creator, dealing with adaptation rights of an intellectual property that is still in active publication is going to be challenging, and the project may fall through or suffer from unforeseen limitations. Intellectually I know all this. And I know that hoping for a full-on feature-length GURPS-style supplement as a stretch goal may be unrealistic. And I know that the final product is clearly a labour of love by the creator of the supplement.

But still. The disappointment with the final result has thoroughly soured me on the whole Blades system so much that I haven't read the game I bought and have an irrational emotional resistance to even trying it if someone else were to run it. It's unreasonable, I know, I get that.

I love the novels and would love to play in the setting. My group hasn't read the novels and all have busy(ish) lives. Read a background gazeteer on the setting as pre-game homework? Sure, that's doable. Start reading the main series, which is right now at 15 books (that are readable in either story-chronological or publication date order, but those two don't line up), and maybe the related romances (6 hefty books)? I've recommended that already just because they're great books, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the group to have that time for pre-game prep. And I'm not a fan of the Blades system (I get how the combination meta-currency/health points works to push a feeling of desperation and how you're supposed to play a character like you'd drive a stolen car and all that, it's just not for me).

I was hoping for something with maps and character intros and setting information that could give me reminders of details and could show people new to the world what it might look like. I was hoping for something that I could use to adapt to another system that I might prefer. I admit, I was hoping for someone to do all the work for me, so I could just give it to my players and say "how would you feel about doing this next?" and have everyone ready to dive in.

What I got was a brief pamphlet that relied on thorough pre-existing familiarity with the books and was locked to the Blades system. It's not what I was hoping for, it's not helpful or useful for me, and it's also not what was promised. And (as you might be able to tell) I'm still a bit bitter about that. :smile:
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Well, man...I can only say that I'm glad I didn't back that KS, which if I had, I would have backed because of this same supplement:shade:!

Because I was also going to be hoping for a setting supplement, but my cynicism (coupled with not being exactly rich) prevailed in the end:thumbsup:.
 
chuckdee said:
Blades in the Dark, like a lot of Kickstarter projects during that time, was a victim of Stretch Goal bloat, i.e. where they continue to put out stretch goals, even though there's a lot of additional content, just caught up in the momentum of the project.

Many people didn't fulfill their obligations. Blades of the Jhereg was the final stretch goal (I think because Brust was a fan of what BitD was doing). I'm amazed that they even got the number of goals done, and most were of the quality that they were. I understand if that's the only reason you backed, but in all honesty, there was more than enough value for the money.
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I'm not trying to slag Blades in general, sorry if it came across that way. I know a lot of people are very satisfied, and rightly so.
 
AsenRG said:
Actually yes, but Vance isn't post-1984, so his works are kinda irrelevant:thumbsup:!
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I realize he had been around a long time at that point, but he did a lot of his best stuff in the '80s.

In fact, the Lyonesse series, widely considered his best fantasy as well as being found worthy of the high honor of a Mythras conversion, had the following release dates:
  • Lyonesse: Suldrun's Garden (1983)
  • Lyonesse: The Green Pearl (1985)
  • Lyonesse: Madouc (1989)
The last two Dying Earth books were 1983 and 1984 as well.
 
Baulderstone said:
I realize he had been around a long time at that point, but he did a lot of his best stuff in the '80s.

In fact, the Lyonesse series, widely considered his best fantasy as well as being found worthy of the high honor of a Mythras conversion, had the following release dates:
  • Lyonesse: Suldrun's Garden (1983)
  • Lyonesse: The Green Pearl (1985)
  • Lyonesse: Madouc (1989)
The last two Dying Earth books were 1983 and 1984 as well.
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I stand corrected on my chronology:thumbsup:. Since I'd read it all in the 90ies* and the subsequent decade, I hadn't needed to pay lots of attention to the release dates.


*Trying to find Vance in Bulgaria pre-1989 would probably have been an exercise in frustration in the best-case scenario:shade:.
 
Here are some of my favourite settings from literature that I think could serve as viable RPG settings:

Story: Middle-earth (LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales)
System: Adventures in Middle-Earth (5e DnD variant) for the Third Age (I had a very positive experience using the system!)
(Possibly Against the Darkmaster for earlier eras or if I'm drawing a lot on my MERP collection.)

Story: Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy
System: The Lyonesse RPG (version of Mythras).
(I think that this system could also be used for a "Cugel-level" Dying Earth campaign.)

Story: Elric series (The Young Kingdoms)
System: Mythras (especially with the now out-of-print MRQII Elric supplements) (I played in an excellent Young Kingdoms campaign using MRQII a decade ago.)

Story: The First Law world (including the post-trilogy stand alone books; the regions covered in Red Country and Best Served Cold would make excellent campaign settings).
System: Mythras

Story: The Cthulhu Mythos world (as described by H.P. Lovecraft and others).
System: Call of Cthulhu or possibly a modified version of Mythras (I'm playing in a Mythras "Return to the Mountains of Madness" campaign now).

Story: The Hyborian Age (REH's Conan stories) and the Atlantean Age (Kull)
System: Mythras (Huh -- there seems to be a trend here).

Story: Kings of the Wyld
System: Dungeons and Dragons (with some tweaks to deal with the absence of clerics). Any edition should work, but I'd use either 1e AD&D or 5e D&D.
This is a fun book and setting (IMO) that is a better "D&D novel" than anything actually written for D&D.
 
Akrasia said:
Here are some of my favourite settings from literature that I think could serve as viable RPG settings:

Story: Middle-earth (LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales)
System: Adventures in Middle-Earth (5e DnD variant) for the Third Age (I had a very positive experience using the system!)
(Possibly Against the Darkmaster for earlier eras or if I'm drawing a lot on my MERP collection.)

Story: Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy
System: The Lyonesse RPG (version of Mythras).
(I think that this system could also be used for a "Cugel-level" Dying Earth campaign.)

Story: Elric series (The Young Kingdoms)
System: Mythras (especially with the now out-of-print MRQII Elric supplements) (I played in an excellent Young Kingdoms campaign using MRQII a decade ago.)

Story: The First Law world (including the post-trilogy stand alone books; the regions covered in Red Country and Best Served Cold would make excellent campaign settings).
System: Mythras

Story: The Cthulhu Mythos world (as described by H.P. Lovecraft and others).
System: Call of Cthulhu or possibly a modified version of Mythras (I'm playing in a Mythras "Return to the Mountains of Madness" campaign now).

Story: The Hyborian Age (REH's Conan stories) and the Atlantean Age (Kull)
System: Mythras (Huh -- there seems to be a trend here).

Story: Kings of the Wyld
System: Dungeons and Dragons (with some tweaks to deal with the absence of clerics). Any edition should work, but I'd use either 1e AD&D or 5e D&D.
This is a fun book and setting (IMO) that is a better "D&D novel" than anything actually written for D&D.
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I agree with everything there except D&D…
 
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