City Supplements: The Good, The Bad, and the Fugly

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One of the issues with RPGs, generally speaking and IMO, is that the really good ones are a odd beast, comprised of perhaps equal parts technical writing and short fiction. By short fiction I don't mean short stories I mean really short evocative writing, often at the sentence or paragraph level. Rules on the one hand, good rules, and on the other writing that makes you see a picture in your head that won't let you put the book down until you've added to it some how.
Yeah. I think this is called ‘creative nonfiction’ sometimes, though of course anything in most game books is in a sense fiction, since it’s about an imaginary place, people, etc. Unless of course it’s not—i.e. a city book about Berlin in the 1920s for Call of Cthulhu would include some nonfiction.
 
This is a crucial observation for all RPG writing. The RPG rules are tools for the players to create with. The writer's creativity should be secondary to the player's creativity. City maps amplify this issue. They are maps first and fantastical prose second.
What? I might need some coffee but this isn't grokking for me at all. First, the rpg rules are for both GM and players to help create with equally. Second, maps are a tool which helps the players and the GM understand where and what. Fantastical prose? I don't even know what to make of that statement. I need coffee damn it.
 
One of the issues with RPGs, generally speaking and IMO, is that the really good ones are a odd beast, comprised of perhaps equal parts technical writing and short fiction. By short fiction I don't mean short stories I mean really short evocative writing, often at the sentence or paragraph level. Rules on the one hand, good rules, and on the other writing that makes you see a picture in your head that won't let you put the book down until you've added to it some how.
That's well put. I would go further and say that effective, evocative composition in rpg rules books almost never involves even paragraph scale blocks of narrative text about settings, npc's etc., and rests instead on working in creative character at the sentence scale. The original Runequest core book sets the bar, in my opinion. Notice that the core book of the rpg that is most noted for its development of and reliance on a nuanced setting contains very, very little in the way of detailed discussions of setting elements. The setting emerges from the rules, which are concisely stated but filled with lots and lots and lots of tiny snippets that give you a feeling for the place. Attempts to merge explanations of rules with larger blocks of narrative text tend to fall flat, both because they result in overall bloat, and a lot of the narrative writing just isn't good enough to keep the reader engaged. It's a bit like that person who pulls out a guitar at a party - yes, congratulations, you know how to strum and make cords, but no, we don't want you to suck all the oxygen out of the room by making us watch you warble your way through Hotel California for the next 10 minutes.
 
That's well put. I would go further and say that effective, evocative composition in rpg rules books almost never involves even paragraph scale blocks of narrative text about settings, npc's etc., and rests instead on working in creative character at the sentence scale. The original Runequest core book sets the bar, in my opinion. Notice that the core book of the rpg that is most noted for its development of and reliance on a nuanced setting contains very, very little in the way of detailed discussions of setting elements. The setting emerges from the rules, which are concisely stated but filled with lots and lots and lots of tiny snippets that give you a feeling for the place. Attempts to merge explanations of rules with larger blocks of narrative text tend to fall flat, both because they result in overall bloat, and a lot of the narrative writing just isn't good enough to keep the reader engaged. It's a bit like that person who pulls out a guitar at a party - yes, congratulations, you know how to strum and make cords, but no, we don't want you to suck all the oxygen out of the room by making us watch you warble your way through Hotel California for the next 10 minutes.
Hmm, and interesting, from this perspective, Cults of Prax could have been half as thick... I'm not sure I've ever read all of the fluff text. I jump straight to the descriptions of Lay, Initiate, and Rune levels... The setting knowledge I use to run Glorantha probably actually could be condensed into 20 pages or maybe even 10 pages. I have my own take on details that emerges through play and deciding what some name or another on the map means. Maps with LOTS of named places on them are great. Hmm, should city maps name lots of buildings but skip the key? Let me decide what Bergen's Happy Hellhound is... And sure, I guess if you want to list the names of the leaders (mayor, guilds, city guard captain, etc.) that would be fine, but do we need a full writeup?
 
Hmm, and interesting, from this perspective, Cults of Prax could have been half as thick... I'm not sure I've ever read all of the fluff text.

You didn't miss much. The fluff text turned me off completely when the narrator discussed system mechanics. In an IC travel diary. Yech.
 
You didn't miss much. The fluff text turned me off completely when the narrator discussed system mechanics. In an IC travel diary. Yech.
I did read, or at least skimmed, a lot of the travel diary, but I didn't read all the fluff into to each cult.
 
What's a regular game?
Well, most non-city rpg's have a huge amount of wilderness with all kinds of monsters around. A city rpg (wether fantasy, modern or cyber-punk) feels different to me than a fantasy, post-apocalyptic, space-opera or pirate setting, because the latter genres are very "explore the map" focused.
 
An Urban campaign when the PCs are new to a city is pretty "explore the map" focused. *shrug* I guess it depends on the campaign in both cases.
 
Hmm, and interesting, from this perspective, Cults of Prax could have been half as thick... I'm not sure I've ever read all of the fluff text. I jump straight to the descriptions of Lay, Initiate, and Rune levels... The setting knowledge I use to run Glorantha probably actually could be condensed into 20 pages or maybe even 10 pages. I have my own take on details that emerges through play and deciding what some name or another on the map means. Maps with LOTS of named places on them are great. Hmm, should city maps name lots of buildings but skip the key? Let me decide what Bergen's Happy Hellhound is... And sure, I guess if you want to list the names of the leaders (mayor, guilds, city guard captain, etc.) that would be fine, but do we need a full writeup?
Definitely different strokes - loved the fluff of Cults of Prax and the Biturian Varosh travelogue (& the one in Cults of Terror).

In fact it was enough for us to create our own version in the Apprentices Guild 'Cults of Light & Death'.

I love in game fiction that ties directly to the game source.
 
An Urban campaign when the PCs are new to a city is pretty "explore the map" focused. *shrug* I guess it depends on the campaign in both cases.
I always think WoD or maybe a medieval setting with guilds like the nobles, clergy, craftsmen, labourors, merchants etc. That mostly leads to politics. But then again you can also make every street and alley dangerous, making it into an urban jungle.

Actually, I think that what TJS, Zanshin and Fenris said about evocative writing about wandering around in the city on street level could really tie into this.
 
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What? I might need some coffee but this isn't grokking for me at all. First, the rpg rules are for both GM and players to help create with equally. Second, maps are a tool which helps the players and the GM understand where and what. Fantastical prose? I don't even know what to make of that statement. I need coffee damn it.
I should have infused myself with coffee before making this insomnia post. :smile: Others have articulated what I was reaching for more eloquently further on.

I don't differentiate GM, DM and players. They are a playing as players together. The fantastical prose is a reference to lengthy paragraphs discussing a creature when all I really need is a small stat block and maybe a 1/2 sentence description. Fantastical prose on maps would refer to "Ecclesiastical Palace of Exalted Proclamations" when the players (referee and players) only need the label "church."

I doubt this explanation will replace coffee, but I did try.
 
I think how much description you give a creature is dependant on both the game and the creature. If it's something easily recognizable like a bear or dire wolf there isn't much need for more than a line or two. If you're describing a creature that is unique to the game, say the Horrors in Earthdawn, then I think only a couple of lines would be an injustice.
 
My only measure of description is 'just enough' which does indeed change from thing to thing. The more important, awe inspiring/horrific a thing is the nore time and words Im like to spend in it. This reads like the Captain Obvious answer, but as noted above many published supplements don't do this.
 
What you get in a Harn City (Old Style)
For me Cities of Harn along with castle towns and manor represent the best bang for the buck in terms of price and utility. While each Harn city has it own vibe they are very much grounded in a medieval fantasy atmosphere. It not hard to make them more weird or zany.

The one I will be focusing on is Tashal, the capital of the Kingdom of Kaldor. In this post this is the original version found in Cities of Harn.
View attachment 38660
The original is found in Cities of Harn as a six page article including the above color map with a b/w map on the back suitable for photocopying and handing out to the players to make notes on
View attachment 38662
OVERVIEW (1 Page)
View attachment 38663
It give some basic stats like it is Royal Seat and has around 11,408 people plus a one paragraph overview. This overview explains that Tashal has an extensive labyrinth of underground tunnels underneath. This is followed by a one paragraph historical overview with a short timeline. Tashal was founded as Kelapyn-Anuz, an outpost of Lothrim the Foulspawner a "dark lord" who ruled a region of Harn early in it's history. A lot is left vague for the referee to fill in with their own details.

Next we get into a long paragraph about how Tashal is governed focusing on the council of Aldermen and the courts. Next is a paragraph about the economics of Tashal focusing largely on the annual summer fair. This fair is responsible for Tashal to be considered THE place to trade in eastern Harn. The setup is adaptable for other setting. Just need to be place where three or four major routes converge.

Next is a list of "guilds" or more properly catagories of businesses. Along with the index number of the business involved.

Finally a stat block of what taxes are levied at Tashal. Important if the players buy property or want to trade there.

Next is a paragraph on religion along with an index of the different Temples. The town is dominated by the church of Larani (goddess of honor and justice) and Peoni (goddess of healing). The three evil churches of Harn are banned.

Map Key (1 Page)
This is a b/w map with all the relevant buildings numbered.
View attachment 38664
INDEX (3 Pages)
This index has 80 entries. All have the size of the business, quality of their work, and how high their prices are.

Some are very basic
View attachment 38665

Some are more fleshed out
View attachment 38666
SPECIAL (1 page)
Most of the original have one or two special details. For Tashal it is the map of the underground labyrinth.
View attachment 38667

For other cities can be a fleshed out building with floor plans. The below is a partial snapshot of a page fleshing out the Guildhall of the Lia-Kavair (thieves guild) of Harn's largest city Coranan.
View attachment 38668

WRAPPING IT UP
For me the original Cities of Harn represented a solid foundation on which to incorporate one of their cities into my Majestic Wilderlands. What there is consistent and make sense. However like the original Traveller products like Supplement 3, Spinward Marches, it is perhaps a bit too terse. In my next post, I will go over the latest version of Tashal highlighting how the Harn format evolved. And why I think the current iteration pretty much hits the sweet spot of utility and detail.
I use Harn maps for the basis of a lot of my cities, towns and villages when I run Fantasy. In my FantasyAge game that just wrapped up, I photoshopped two of the Harn city maps together and made some adjustments for my setting and used that for the primary city that the characters were based out of. They are top notch maps
 
I use Harn maps for the basis of a lot of my cities, towns and villages when I run Fantasy. In my FantasyAge game that just wrapped up, I photoshopped two of the Harn city maps together and made some adjustments for my setting and used that for the primary city that the characters were based out of. They are top notch maps
Indeed

A rotated and modified Olokand.
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A rotated and modified Aleath
1638545286968.png
 
this was my map of Haven we used in the game. I'm glad I set it up, because what I had originally envisioned as a primarily exploration campaign based from here wound up as a primarily social and political campaign with some exploration, small town building and setting up trade routes type of campaign (it was a lot of fun, and there was still plenty of action to be had. The final session (last week), they managed to save the world from an Elder creature trying to come in and terraform the world to fit it's kind
 

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What? I might need some coffee but this isn't grokking for me at all. First, the rpg rules are for both GM and players to help create with equally. Second, maps are a tool which helps the players and the GM understand where and what. Fantastical prose? I don't even know what to make of that statement. I need coffee damn it.
One coffee here as well, please:coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee:!
 
OK, a quick and dirty guide to Dresden Files city building. This process starts before character creation and finishes after it, the idea being to connect player wants to the city and then the PCs directly back to the city. Keep in mind this is aimed at Urban Fantasy. Anyway...

  1. Choose a City - there's a couple of pages of advice here, from choose the city you live in, to one everyone is familiar with. Lots of approaches get coverage and the suggestions for each are solid. Travel Guides and local legends are the core suggestions for where to start a little research.
  2. Coming to a Consensus - here there are a variety of suggestions for compiling a list of the kinds of things everyone might want to engage with in the city. This could be a theme, public figures, prominent buildings or geographical features, whatever. The goal is to get a list and discuss what they might look like.
  3. Themes and Threats - themes are long standing problems (the Mob in Chicago) while threats are more current and immediate (people, monsters and groups) . All of these should be, by design, a little dark - they provide this for the PCs to struggle against. The goal is to decide on a total of three to start the campaign.
  4. The High-Level View - monsters, factions and organizations. Here the discussion revolves around who's here and why, and where they are looing to keep the status quo or shake it up (motivations). The idea is to combine you themes and threats with some of the ideas generated in step 2. This is also the step where (for the DF) you decide who's in the know or in the dark in terms of the supernatural. This could easily be translated to knowledge of whatever.
  5. Locations and Faces - everyone gets to make up some specific locations to help populate the city. Each gets it's own theme or threat and a face (with a general concept) that exemplifies it. The notion is to add the locations that are cool, or that might reoccur, or whatever and then use some discussion and consensus to flesh things out. The sheet provided for this has spots for 9 locations, but you can do as many or few as you collectively think the city needs. There is a similar sheet for Faces, who are important NPCs. Same idea here, the group all get to add their ideas - a Face get theme, motivation, high concept, and relationships. This is all designed to be recursive and consensus based, with thought given to connecting these disparate parts as the process continues.
  6. Characters - at some point during this process every makes up characters, with the idea that you have some things to connect those characters too. Once you have characters built you go back in and tweak the City to firm up connections and whatnot.
The overall 'take' on city building here is pretty cinematic. It's not about travel time or exact addresses, but more about designing people, places and ideas to connect PCs to and have them bounce off of. The City at that point feels lot like a character itself, and one that the group builds together. The GM is still in control of the exact details, with the recorded ideas serving as 'rumor level' truth in many instances, and its still the GM that takes care of the behind the scenes connections and stuff like that.
To see an example I did for my upcoming campaign -

 
I'm looking for a something to use as my City of Greyhawk. I have the 2E boxed set but I'm not a big fan of it. Any suggestions? Anyone find a substitute they liked?
 
I'm looking for a something to use as my City of Greyhawk. I have the 2E boxed set but I'm not a big fan of it. Any suggestions? Anyone find a substitute they liked?

Not sure I understand the question. Are you looking for an entirely different city to use instead of Greyhawk? Are you looking for maps you can re-key to Greyhawk? Are you playing D&D, and if so, how much work do you want to do for conversion?
 
Not sure I understand the question. Are you looking for an entirely different city to use instead of Greyhawk? Are you looking for maps you can re-key to Greyhawk? Are you playing D&D, and if so, how much work do you want to do for conversion?
I don't like the City as portrayed in the 2E boxed set. I'm looking to rekey something to Greyhawk. I play mostly 1E material converted to Castles and Crusades.
 
And there's also the DCC boxed set and the Savage Worlds run.
 
Don't forget the later Green Ronin? D20 run. Lots of additional stuff on the world.
Darn it yeah good point. I do have those as well. Good additional material but the time line is much later and only based on the couple books Lynn Abbey oversaw. I've yet to read those, on my list to track down. The books, I've got the D20 books.
 
Darn it yeah good point. I do have those as well. Good additional material but the time line is much later and only based on the couple books Lynn Abbey oversaw. I've yet to read those, on my list to track down. The books, I've got the D20 books.
Speaking of, here they are. I pulled them out and three other D20 rpg book series. Wheel of Time, Dragon Lord of Melnibone and The Black Company. :grin:


D20 Thieves' World books.jpg

D20 Wheel of Time, Elric and The Black Company.jpg
 
OK, a quick and dirty guide to Dresden Files city building. This process starts before character creation and finishes after it, the idea being to connect player wants to the city and then the PCs directly back to the city. Keep in mind this is aimed at Urban Fantasy. Anyway...
  1. Choose a City - there's a couple of pages of advice here, from choose the city you live in, to one everyone is familiar with. Lots of approaches get coverage and the suggestions for each are solid. Travel Guides and local legends are the core suggestions for where to start a little research.
  2. Coming to a Consensus - here there are a variety of suggestions for compiling a list of the kinds of things everyone might want to engage with in the city. This could be a theme, public figures, prominent buildings or geographical features, whatever. The goal is to get a list and discuss what they might look like.
  3. Themes and Threats - themes are long standing problems (the Mob in Chicago) while threats are more current and immediate (people, monsters and groups) . All of these should be, by design, a little dark - they provide this for the PCs to struggle against. The goal is to decide on a total of three to start the campaign.
  4. The High-Level View - monsters, factions and organizations. Here the discussion revolves around who's here and why, and where they are looing to keep the status quo or shake it up (motivations). The idea is to combine you themes and threats with some of the ideas generated in step 2. This is also the step where (for the DF) you decide who's in the know or in the dark in terms of the supernatural. This could easily be translated to knowledge of whatever.
  5. Locations and Faces - everyone gets to make up some specific locations to help populate the city. Each gets it's own theme or threat and a face (with a general concept) that exemplifies it. The notion is to add the locations that are cool, or that might reoccur, or whatever and then use some discussion and consensus to flesh things out. The sheet provided for this has spots for 9 locations, but you can do as many or few as you collectively think the city needs. There is a similar sheet for Faces, who are important NPCs. Same idea here, the group all get to add their ideas - a Face get theme, motivation, high concept, and relationships. This is all designed to be recursive and consensus based, with thought given to connecting these disparate parts as the process continues.
  6. Characters - at some point during this process every makes up characters, with the idea that you have some things to connect those characters too. Once you have characters built you go back in and tweak the City to firm up connections and whatnot.
I was already doing something similar. It's really how you create a sandbox, isn't it? The themes and threats I already use for areas. The way I see it the themes are things you could investigate and the threats are npc's you can fight. Factions and motivations. Check. After reading more about this method I actually decided to tie non-playable factions to certain area's with certain themes and let the playable factions be all over the map wherever the players want to go. I changed that and it feels how it should be.
 
I was already doing something similar. It's really how you create a sandbox, isn't it? The themes and threats I already use for areas. The way I see it the themes are things you could investigate and the threats are npc's you can fight. Factions and motivations. Check. After reading more about this method I actually decided to tie non-playable factions to certain area's with certain themes and let the playable factions be all over the map wherever the players want to go. I changed that and it feels how it should be.
The thing I find really useful about this method is the level of player involvement. I know a lot of people really don't like that method, but that's ok too. I find that when the players have some say in what kind of threats and factions they'd like to engage with the game is far less likely to bog down. To be clear, the PCs don't know all the details of those threats and factions, just the broad strokes.
 
The thing I find really useful about this method is the level of player involvement. I know a lot of people really don't like that method, but that's ok too. I find that when the players have some say in what kind of threats and factions they'd like to engage with the game is far less likely to bog down. To be clear, the PCs don't know all the details of those threats and factions, just the broad strokes.
Yeah, that's the part I didn't use. I didn't involve anyone else.

What I did do is comparing that method with how I build my own setting. I build several different districts with each their own enemies and each with it's theme. For example there is one industrial area where the barrier between worlds is very thin and that attracks cults and witches. So the first thing is my theme and the latter are my threaths in that district.

I was always having a little trouble with city setting and I didn't have that with scifi or fantasy settings. And now I accidentally came across the solution. I always placed all the factions, including the playable ones, into one area. And that's what I shouldn't do. I shouldn't make one playable hunter organisation limited to one part of town, just because that thematically makes sense. That makes it limited. I should use them in any part the players want to go. I don't know why that took me so long to figure it out, because I do that automatically in any other setting. :errr:

Anyway, I already used a lot of that method and it solved something that bothered me. :thumbsup:
 
One of the primary issues with cities in TTRPGs, historically speaking, is the difficulty of mimicking local PC knowledge on the player side. This is one of the reasons that the "your PCs are new to the city" hook has been such a regular feature of urban campaigns. When the PCs are new there's no need to mimic local area knowledge and the player and PC discover things in lockstep. However, when you want to run a game where the PCs are local, then you do have an issue with that same idea. D&D started to address this via skills relatively early, and many games do the same with some version of a Streetwise or Local Area Knowledge type skill. I never found that at all satisfying though.

When I have to roll a skill every time my PC wants to know something they should probably actually know not only is the chance of failure inherent in the die roll an odd fit, it also feels very divorced from what I think of as roleplaying. I can't make appropriate choices and decisions for my PC when all the knowledge is gated behind die rolls and coming from the DMs notes. You can run a game this way of course, and that game can even be excellent, but in this one regard it's always going to be sub par IMO. However, when the players are active participants in the building of the city, it's factions, and it's themes, what they have at the end, before the campaign even starts, is something that's a pretty good stand-in for the local area knowledge absent in the example above. The players know who the main factions are, what the terrain looks like, and probably have a solid working understanding of the politics and other forces that drive conflict in their city. In short, the players feel like residents of that city before the game eve starts. This isn't a 'better than' sort of argument, just an index to the particular reason I'd choose to use a method like the one I described for a particular kind of urban campaign.
 
One of the primary issues with cities in TTRPGs, historically speaking, is the difficulty of mimicking local PC knowledge on the player side. This is one of the reasons that the "your PCs are new to the city" hook has been such a regular feature of urban campaigns. When the PCs are new there's no need to mimic local area knowledge and the player and PC discover things in lockstep. However, when you want to run a game where the PCs are local, then you do have an issue with that same idea. D&D started to address this via skills relatively early, and many games do the same with some version of a Streetwise or Local Area Knowledge type skill. I never found that at all satisfying though.

When I have to roll a skill every time my PC wants to know something they should probably actually know not only is the chance of failure inherent in the die roll an odd fit, it also feels very divorced from what I think of as roleplaying. I can't make appropriate choices and decisions for my PC when all the knowledge is gated behind die rolls and coming from the DMs notes. You can run a game this way of course, and that game can even be excellent, but in this one regard it's always going to be sub par IMO. However, when the players are active participants in the building of the city, it's factions, and it's themes, what they have at the end, before the campaign even starts, is something that's a pretty good stand-in for the local area knowledge absent in the example above. The players know who the main factions are, what the terrain looks like, and probably have a solid working understanding of the politics and other forces that drive conflict in their city. In short, the players feel like residents of that city before the game eve starts. This isn't a 'better than' sort of argument, just an index to the particular reason I'd choose to use a method like the one I described for a particular kind of urban campaign.
Yea, the local knowledge thing is one of the issues I have with urban adventuring. It's much easier with wilderness and dungeon adventuring to have the adventure happen out in the unknown.
 
One of the primary issues with cities in TTRPGs, historically speaking, is the difficulty of mimicking local PC knowledge on the player side. This is one of the reasons that the "your PCs are new to the city" hook has been such a regular feature of urban campaigns. When the PCs are new there's no need to mimic local area knowledge and the player and PC discover things in lockstep. However, when you want to run a game where the PCs are local, then you do have an issue with that same idea. D&D started to address this via skills relatively early, and many games do the same with some version of a Streetwise or Local Area Knowledge type skill. I never found that at all satisfying though.

I have a very simple fix that I've been using for years: you get Area Knowledge of the city (or a neighborhood thereof), I hand you a redacted copy of my writeup. So, for instance, while my full writeup for a district might have entries that look like this:

W3) Needleman, no sign: Sana Severlyne (Physician-25) is one of the world’s best – and most altruistic – physicians, operating out of this modest shop near the waterfront. She is forced to turn away patients because of the incredible demand on her services combined with her rockbottom fees; in consequence, a number of merchants supply her at heavily discounted prices, feeling it their duty.

W4) Lighthouse of the Moons: The Lighthouse’s mirror atop its central minaret coalesces moonlight on all nights (except on the rare nights when all three major moons are at new) to send a bluish-white beacon of light out over the harbor at all times. The Lighthouse has done this without any direct physical effort on the part of the priests of Varuna (this is, technically, a temple to that god) for more than 300 years now, and past attempts to mute the light have proven futile.

W5) Parish of St. Hyn Aelori’s (Manannan): This temple is a once-impressive black marble construct with balconies marked by silver and gold leaf, and white marble columns and accents. While opulent and well made, this temple is centuries old and its upkeep has been less than perfect, as evidenced by crumbling parapets and ill-fitting doors. The parish has collected several dozen books and artifacts from the era of the Kelnorian Empire, and has become a center of scholarship of that time.

Mother Tenevya (/e, Physician-13) is herself not much of a scholar, but Anamchara Sadayn (History-15) is, and supervises two acolyte/ scholars in the work. Instead, Mother Tenevya maintains an infirmary for the maritime population. Available spells (-14/15): Minor Healing, Restoration, Bless, Exorcism, Divination.


... the redacted part might look like this:

W3) Needleman, no sign:
Sana Severlyne is a physician operating out of this modest shop. Fees are low, quality is reportedly high, and waiting times are long.

W4) Lighthouse of the Moons: The Lighthouse sends a magical bluish-white beacon out over the harbor at all times.

W5) St. Hyn Aelori’s (Manannan): This aging temple is of black marble with balconies marked by silver and gold leaf, and white marble columns and accents, but upkeep is near to nonexistent and the temple has become shabby. There is an infirmary for the maritime population, and supposedly a good library.
 
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