Climbing, Jumping & Swimming Rules

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xanther

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What rules have you found work the best for each of these situations? Preferably ones that do not require calculation (e.g. adding up this % and that %) or a large table.

(1) Climbing: I do not know if I have ever seen a set of rules for this that makes any sense to me based on lived experience. I grew up climbing all sorts of stuff, trees to the very top, cliffs, rocks, the rough walls...readily doable with the right shoes and easy with climbing shoes. Not a particularly strong kid, but likely dexterous, and certainly never any training to years later and even later before started using ropes.
Yet every set of game rules ever come across on the subject would say what I did regularly was impossible, and should be dead. (For the record the one time I did fall was a failed Intelligence check). Even when what I did was possible, many rules make climbing abysmally slow.

Let's say I have climbing skill. Under TFT for example I can climb 2 yards per minute with handholds, or a yard per 2 minutes without. I can easily debunk that by going to the rock wall at my local REI and climb 2 yards in 10 seconds.

On what makes a difference, would be nice to see rules that use (implicitly at least) an existing classification system.

(2) Jumping: This is another area were the sweet spot of having it matter in an RPG seems elusive because in a lot of jumping a foot is a big difference, between average and world class. The conditions of Olympic jumping sets an upper limit in my mind but not RPG representative. Perhaps parkour sites and enthusiast would have useful information.

Really would like to have rules that could emulate well the scene in LotR where they have to jump, or be thrown. What would really be helpful as well are rules that can work for animals, especially horses, but also big cats and the like.

(3) Swimming: Here is where my personal expereince may mislead me (was full swimming before grade school, was a life guard, on swim team and would often win in my least favorite stroke and so bad in my favorite stroke only got to race that once). There is certainly a huge element of skill to win a race, but again swimming is even more of a small margins meaning the difference between average or world class thing.

People in shape can tread water for far longer than any game have seen, movement speeds are either incredibly slow or superfast if one multiples them out to kph or mph.

Again competitive sports can set an upper limit, but don't believe they are RPG representative. Perhaps data on the performance benchmarks for Navy SEALS would be good as they do this stuff in clothes.

It would be really good to have underwater swimming as that where how far and fast you can go seems to matter most in an RPG.
 
How close to reality do you want this to be and what's your preferred system for this stuff? How much granularity do you want? Are these 3 separate skills or all in one (D&D 4e on Athletics)? How deadly do you want climbing to be?
 
Yea, I'm not sure about this. You are right, no (or almost no) game system makes anything remotely sensible for these. All too often climbing is a "roll until you fail" thing. The Mountain Environment a Gamelords Traveller supplement at least made an attempt to be more realistic for mountain climbing (they also did The Undersea Environment and The Desert Environment). They are probably good references for any game.

I've dramatically de-emphasized athletic skills in my gaming from my AD&D days (especially since my Wilderness Survival Guide days...). Yet situations still come up, and it's hard to avoid winding up looking like a Three Stooges episode...
 
What rules have you found work the best for each of these situations? Preferably ones that do not require calculation (e.g. adding up this % and that %) or a large table.

(1) Climbing: I do not know if I have ever seen a set of rules for this that makes any sense to me based on lived experience. I grew up climbing all sorts of stuff, trees to the very top, cliffs, rocks, the rough walls...readily doable with the right shoes and easy with climbing shoes. Not a particularly strong kid, but likely dexterous, and certainly never any training to years later and even later before started using ropes.
Yet every set of game rules ever come across on the subject would say what I did regularly was impossible, and should be dead. (For the record the one time I did fall was a failed Intelligence check). Even when what I did was possible, many rules make climbing abysmally slow.

Let's say I have climbing skill. Under TFT for example I can climb 2 yards per minute with handholds, or a yard per 2 minutes without. I can easily debunk that by going to the rock wall at my local REI and climb 2 yards in 10 seconds.

On what makes a difference, would be nice to see rules that use (implicitly at least) an existing classification system.
In 4CX, the climbing rules don't really come into play unless its a situation where the characters are put in a tough situation; icy patches on the surface, high winds, being pelted by large stones from above by the enemy, etc. Unless conditions are rough, or the character's Stamina is really low (below average), a roll usually isn't necessary. Climbing is Stamina based, and if you don't have any skill levels in Climbing then you default to that Trait. Climbing (going vertically) takes the distance unit from yards to feet in 4CX, and currently that translates to approx 10 feet. An average character is able to climb that distance in about 6 seconds (a turn in the game). Not exactly science, but it appears close to your experience.
(2) Jumping: This is another area were the sweet spot of having it matter in an RPG seems elusive because in a lot of jumping a foot is a big difference, between average and world class. The conditions of Olympic jumping sets an upper limit in my mind but not RPG representative. Perhaps parkour sites and enthusiast would have useful information.

Really would like to have rules that could emulate well the scene in LotR where they have to jump, or be thrown. What would really be helpful as well are rules that can work for animals, especially horses, but also big cats and the like.
4CX uses Strength as a default to the Jumping skill, and the distance covered depends on that Trait's score. My current reworking of the rules includes the standing jump (vertical) and running long jump. The current real world standing platform jump is just a hair over 5 feet, so that will have to be the best a character can do at the maximum human potential. Lower Trait scores will have significantly lower heights. The new unit of distance for forward movement in 4CX is 30 yards which doesn't break down that easily for real world long jump distances with the current record being around 10 feet, so I am going to use the same parameters that are used for climbing here (1 unit = 10 feet). Again, that will be for Max human potential.
(3) Swimming: Here is where my personal expereince may mislead me (was full swimming before grade school, was a life guard, on swim team and would often win in my least favorite stroke and so bad in my favorite stroke only got to race that once). There is certainly a huge element of skill to win a race, but again swimming is even more of a small margins meaning the difference between average or world class thing.

People in shape can tread water for far longer than any game have seen, movement speeds are either incredibly slow or superfast if one multiples them out to kph or mph.

Again competitive sports can set an upper limit, but don't believe they are RPG representative. Perhaps data on the performance benchmarks for Navy SEALS would be good as they do this stuff in clothes.

It would be really good to have underwater swimming as that where how far and fast you can go seems to matter most in an RPG.

Here again, like Climbing, Swimming in 4CX is based on Stamina. And again, unless there are some really adverse conditions, a roll won't be necessary. Water movement is also similar to vertical movement due to the drag put on the swimmer by water resistance and current strength, etc., so forward movement while swimming will fall to the 10 feet per turn (six seconds) model. An average guy can probably do 10-12 feet in that amount of time. An experienced, read skilled, swimmer with human max Stamina can probably do twice that in a turn. These are surface times, but I wouldn't think (or know really) that the times/distances would be too dissimilar.

I am not a doctor, I just watch them on TV...
 
I dunno, here's how Phaserip handles it:

CLIMBING
To scale vertical surfaces, a Hero who does not possess any relevant Traits or Powers, enough projections and footholds must be available (such as a drainpipe). Under favourable conditions a Hero may climb one floor in altitude per Panel, otherwise the GM might insist upon an Agility GEST to avoid falling. The Judge may use an Extended GEST to resolve a long climb.

JUMPING
A normal human (Might of Excellent or less) can jump straight up a number of feet (30 cm) equal to their Might Echelon Rank divided by 2. If they possess the Athletics Skill or a relevant Speciality, a Hero can jump vertically a number of feet equal to their Might Echelon Rank, adjusted by a Might GEST:

• On a Green Phase Result, add one foot (30 cm).
• On a Blue Phase Result add 2 feet (60cm).
• On a Red Phase Result, add 1 yard (meter).

A Hero can leap across a number of yards (meters) equal to their Might Echelon Rank. If they get a running start from at least half an Area away, a Hero can lengthen this distance by making a Might GEST:

• On a Green Phase Result, add one yard (meter).
• On a Blue Phase Result add 6 feet (2 meters).
• On a Red Phase Result, double the distance.

SWIMMING
Heroes can swim a maximum number of Areas per Panel equal to half their Might Echelon Rank, rounded down. Heroes possessing the Speciality Swim or a related Trait, may move an extra Area per Panel. Heroes able to fly of their own momentum, on the other had, can propel themselves underwater at a speed equal to their Power Echelon Rank taken as a Land Speed Rating (see Issue III: Thus Spake Zarathustra). Unless mitigated by a Trait, all physical GESTs performed underwater suffer a -2 ES penalty.
[h2][/h2]
 
This may not be helpful, but you did ask. The rules I have found to work best in these situations are all the same ... one die roll to determine success/failure, modified by one attribute and one skill. The key, when creating the challenge, is to decide how hard it is and what will modify it. During play, I give players the odds, explain what happens if they fail, and let them decide whether or not they want to roll the die. In other words, I never needed any rules and typically ignored what rules the game provides, unless I actually like them and can remember them without flipping through the book.

The most common of these is climbing. If failure happens, I roll d10 to determine at what point (in 10% increments) that happens, and use whatever the game provides for falling damage. Sometimes I allow multiple tries, sometimes not.

Jumping is even easier. Failure means you take the full consequences.

Failure in swimming means you drown unless someone who passes the roll can save you, in which case you are brought back unconscious for one turn and afraid to try again.
 
How close to reality do you want this to be and what's your preferred system for this stuff? How much granularity do you want? Are these 3 separate skills or all in one (D&D 4e on Athletics)? How deadly do you want climbing to be?

Oh should mention focused on a fantasy genre mostly.

On granularity, the less the better for me. I am all about verisimilitude.

On reality, do not want it any worse than "reality" and would like the maximum for humans to be near world/Olympic records but do not mind if powerful PCs (e.g. high level) exceed these limits.

Don't care if it is one skill or not, very open to how it is done.

I prefer climbing be no more deadly than "reality," know that is very nebulous. Would prefer one where your first failure is not immediate death (injury is fine) if not pushing way beyond your skill. The "fall to your death" would be more an immediate thing if the climb rating is 5.11 or above.

My preferred system is my own of course :smile: but basic mechanics wise it is a count success system. I can adapt anything though so other mechanics would not be an issue.
 
Yea, I'm not sure about this. You are right, no (or almost no) game system makes anything remotely sensible for these.
I should clarify the games I have seen, which I know while it may be a fair number no where near a majority of what is out there, also people may have house rules.

All too often climbing is a "roll until you fail" thing.
Agreed, the one roll for a huge climb I think is to few, but roll every x feet can be too many. On the latter it seems many designers forget that even if I have a 90% chance to climb a 20' if I try to climb 100' and have to roll every 20' my chances of making it are only 60%.

The Mountain Environment a Gamelords Traveller supplement at least made an attempt to be more realistic for mountain climbing (they also did The Undersea Environment and The Desert Environment). They are probably good references for any game.

Will have to look those up, also never mind filling out my Traveller materials.

I've dramatically de-emphasized athletic skills in my gaming from my AD&D days (especially since my Wilderness Survival Guide days...). Yet situations still come up, and it's hard to avoid winding up looking like a Three Stooges episode...
In most cases it becomes only important when PCs are trying to do something fast.
 
Climbing: I don't know about climb speeds, since I suck at it and rarely even tried it IRL. But the way I usually handle it is climb rolls are usually necessary only under stress or attack, and/or to speed up climbing. And failure doesn't mean you automatically fall to your death, unless you roll a critical failure (however that's determined in the system). Instead failure means that you fail to make any progress that round and must try again next round. Critical Failure means that you lose your hold, but may try again next round to regain it. If you fail the second time, THEN you start falling to your death unless you're tied to a rope or someone can grab you.

Jumping: Don't know about realistic jump distances, but I never actually use jump distances anyway in actual play. Usually when jumping comes up there's some type of obstacle the character is attempting to jump over or across. So I just set a difficulty number based on how far or high the character is trying to jump and if the roll succeeds they jump over or across it. If they fail they face some setback (didn't cross the gab completely, but managed to hold onto the ledge, monsters probably coming from the other side as the character struggles to climb up) unless a critical failure comes up, in which case they may fall to their death (if leaping across a chasm) or fall prone and hurt themselves if jumping over something.

Swimming: Doesn't usually come up, but when it does I only require checks to speed up or stay afloat in difficult waters. Failure means no progress, unless critical failure, then you go under and must make further rolls to swim back up.
 
In 4CX, the climbing rules don't really come into play unless its a situation where the characters are put in a tough situation; icy patches on the surface, high winds, being pelted by large stones from above by the enemy, etc. Unless conditions are rough, or the character's Stamina is really low (below average), a roll usually isn't necessary. Climbing is Stamina based, and if you don't have any skill levels in Climbing then you default to that Trait. Climbing (going vertically) takes the distance unit from yards to feet in 4CX, and currently that translates to approx 10 feet. An average character is able to climb that distance in about 6 seconds (a turn in the game). Not exactly science, but it appears close to your experience.
I do like that approach, I am one more for rolls only for hard things. Taking 6 seconds to go 10 feet is not unreasonable all told in street clothes and taking ones time....very slow if have climbing shoes and holds.

4CX uses Strength as a default to the Jumping skill, and the distance covered depends on that Trait's score. My current reworking of the rules includes the standing jump (vertical) and running long jump. The current real world standing platform jump is just a hair over 5 feet, so that will have to be the best a character can do at the maximum human potential. Lower Trait scores will have significantly lower heights. The new unit of distance for forward movement in 4CX is 30 yards which doesn't break down that easily for real world long jump distances with the current record being around 10 feet, so I am going to use the same parameters that are used for climbing here (1 unit = 10 feet). Again, that will be for Max human potential.

My issues with these kind of approaches, which have used, is they work great for one Strength value but sometimes grossly under or over estimate another. I believe it has to do with units chosen, units of feet would work well and directly for vertical jumps with my strength scale and maybe x2 for horizontal.

Here again, like Climbing, Swimming in 4CX is based on Stamina. And again, unless there are some really adverse conditions, a roll won't be necessary. Water movement is also similar to vertical movement due to the drag put on the swimmer by water resistance and current strength, etc., so forward movement while swimming will fall to the 10 feet per turn (six seconds) model. An average guy can probably do 10-12 feet in that amount of time. An experienced, read skilled, swimmer with human max Stamina can probably do twice that in a turn. These are surface times, but I wouldn't think (or know really) that the times/distances would be too dissimilar.

This is typically what have seen, treated like any other movement, just at a different rate.
That speed seems reasonable for a person in street clothes Not to nit pick, just FYI, that is a very slow swim time for an average person in a swim suit, which would be more 15-18' per 6 seconds. Olympic level is even faster, like 40' in 6 seconds.
 
I dunno, here's how Phaserip handles it:....
I like that for a SuperHero game, very cinematic nice verisimilitude (can just imagine the climbing per panel) and seems to leave a lot of things loose as to how long or much a Panel is etc.

Gives me a good idea of how to do it more abstracted. For an in shape average human, what do these translate into in quantitative distances and/or speeds? Or is that even relevant.
 
On climbing, I've always assumed that it's just crawling, but on an incline. So that's the speed I would give you. Consequently, the first roll would give you a "slipped handhold" result, then second or third would result in a fall (unless the first roll is catastrophic).
I've arrived at that by the scientific method of climbing and watching lots of kids climbing, and having to give them tips on how to do so:thumbsup:.
Equipment and natural handholds or lack thereof give you levels of difficulty. If you reach a place where there are no handholds, you might need an Acrobatics (or Hard Jumping) check.

On jumping, if it ever mattered, I'd make it a base jump depending on strength, the roll modifies that by +/- 25 cm per success level (in a d100 system), where failure is "no extra length". Critical failure requires a second roll, though, or might mean the landing is worse than you'd hoped for.

Swimming...actually doesn't come that often for some reason. But well, first, equipment seems like it would have to be accounted for more than it usually is.
Second, I think "crawling speed" would do well here as well, modified by the roll.

I admit to not being an expert in either, so wouldn't mind comments on that:shade:!
 
Climbing: I don't know about climb speeds, since I suck at it and rarely even tried it IRL. But the way I usually handle it is climb rolls are usually necessary only under stress or attack, and/or to speed up climbing. And failure doesn't mean you automatically fall to your death, unless you roll a critical failure (however that's determined in the system). Instead failure means that you fail to make any progress that round and must try again next round. Critical Failure means that you lose your hold, but may try again next round to regain it. If you fail the second time, THEN you start falling to your death unless you're tied to a rope or someone can grab you.
The treatment of failure is similar to how I handle it.
And just FYI, loosing you hold is my expereince in real life is the failure result. This is in part because learned always want 3 points on the rock at anyone time. It is when you get to places where that is not possible that falls happen. Now if you can do a finger tip pull up or one arm pull ups one may survive. :smile:

Jumping: Don't know about realistic jump distances, but I never actually use jump distances anyway in actual play. Usually when jumping comes up there's some type of obstacle the character is attempting to jump over or across. So I just set a difficulty number based on how far or high the character is trying to jump and if the roll succeeds they jump over or across it. If they fail they face some setback (didn't cross the gab completely, but managed to hold onto the ledge, monsters probably coming from the other side as the character struggles to climb up) unless a critical failure comes up, in which case they may fall to their death (if leaping across a chasm) or fall prone and hurt themselves if jumping over something.

I prefer it more qualitative as well. But do like for my own design purposes to have a quantitative feel for what is difficult, is it 5', 6', 10' etc. My preference is to have a base distance for "easy" and then a rough idea of how much further different levels of difficulty represent.

Swimming: Doesn't usually come up, but when it does I only require checks to speed up or stay afloat in difficult waters. Failure means no progress, unless critical failure, then you go under and must make further rolls to swim back up.

How far does one go if they do succeed? Also how far can one go underwater? I am thinking of the situation where you need to swim underwater a certain distance to get to another area of air. I am not so much concerned with great accuracy just not obviously too short or too far (still need to look up the various SEAL swim test metrics), with the touch point be an in shape human...then heroes can certainly exceed that.
 
On climbing, I've always assumed that it's just crawling, but on an incline. So that's the speed I would give you. Consequently, the first roll would give you a "slipped handhold" result, then second or third would result in a fall (unless the first roll is catastrophic).
I've arrived at that by the scientific method of climbing and watching lots of kids climbing, and having to give them tips on how to do so:thumbsup:.
Equipment and natural handholds or lack thereof give you levels of difficulty. If you reach a place where there are no handholds, you might need an Acrobatics (or Hard Jumping) check.

That makes sense to me, but with hand and foothold, even the kind on a rocks wall even an inexperienced climber can move pretty fast, faster than a crawl. The biggest impediment to speed I have seen at rock walls for those inexperienced is fear. Then again rock walls have holds that won't break. In the wild on a rock have no expereince on as much time is spent looking and testing as anything else.

All that being said, my view is a skilled climber should make very short work of a surface like a wall with holds. So do like when movement rates relate to skill via some mechanic. For me with count success fairly easy as the more skilled are more likely to get more successes.

On jumping, if it ever mattered, I'd make it a base jump depending on strength, the roll modifies that by +/- 25 cm per success level (in a d100 system), where failure is "no extra length". Critical failure requires a second roll, though, or might mean the landing is worse than you'd hoped for.

I really like jumping to matter, and tend make it a part of my adventures. I make no bones about it with my players, you just must bring rope. :smile: My questions here are to get ideas of how to implement the scale variation with success and the base distance.

Swimming...actually doesn't come that often for some reason. But well, first, equipment seems like it would have to be accounted for more than it usually is.
Second, I think "crawling speed" would do well here as well, modified by the roll.
I tend to build in water filled tunnels sections that can be traversed by swimming through them and coming up onto higher ground :smile:. You are right thought that gear is a huge difference, street clothes are big impediment and was trained to remove you shoes...they are even worse. Lugging people (who are not panicking because they are drowning) is not so bad as they are buoyant to a large extent, it is dead weight gear that is hard, not sure one could swim with much over 10% of your weight. I'd have to look up and see if they still do the lift a weight from the bottom of the pool test (did and they do), I recall at 14 lifting 10 lbs from 12' IIRC down was not easy...and I was likely strength 10 on a 3-18 scale.

I admit to not being an expert in either, so wouldn't mind comments on that:shade:!

Not sure I am an expert either, just a very good swimmer in my day and did a lot of non-technical climbing because ropes were too expensive for me (and was clearly immortal in my youth)...all my technical climbing was with other peoples gear.

I used to have the idea that RPG designers must never get outdoors much as most rules related to athletic type stuff or outdoor stuff are so far from actual expereince. In the past can see getting info was hard, but with the internet these days fairly easy. My goal here is just to see other ways to get to the same result. That is rules that in practice when applied to an in shape human give results that line up with real world data, certainly not exactly but close enough.
 
I like that for a SuperHero game, very cinematic nice verisimilitude (can just imagine the climbing per panel) and seems to leave a lot of things loose as to how long or much a Panel is etc.

Gives me a good idea of how to do it more abstracted. For an in shape average human, what do these translate into in quantitative distances and/or speeds? Or is that even relevant.

An Area, horizontally, means about one floor of a building, so I don't know how that translates ito speed so much as it's about dividing t into what might happen at any given floor (a window to climb in, or someone to attack the from, a gargoyle or ledge, etc).
 
How far does one go if they do succeed? Also how far can one go underwater? I am thinking of the situation where you need to swim underwater a certain distance to get to another area of air. I am not so much concerned with great accuracy just not obviously too short or too far (still need to look up the various SEAL swim test metrics), with the touch point be an in shape human...then heroes can certainly exceed that.

I usually just wing it depending on how far I think the character's destination is and tell players it will take them X amount of time to get there. If there's some type of danger involved I may require one or more checks for the whole trip, depending on the distance they need to travel.

If I need to get specific (like when swimming through a pool in a dungeon with specific distances marked in the map), I usually use the creature's swim speed (half normal land speed for most humanoid PCs going by 5e conventions, or 15 feet, doubled to 30 feet if all you're doing that round is moving) to gauge base distance per round. If the character succeeds on an athletics check to speed up (+10 to check DC based on water conditions going by d20-ish metrics) I may double their speed for one round.

When dealing with a scenario like the one you describe, I'd probably estimate the distance that characters would need to swim to get to the other side, then subtract their swim speed from that with each successful check. Plus some type of Constitution (or system equivalent) check per round after a certain time has elapsed (1 round/Constitution if going by D&D standards) to avoid drowning.
 
What rules have you found work the best for each of these situations? Preferably ones that do not require calculation (e.g. adding up this % and that %) or a large table.

(1) Climbing: I do not know if I have ever seen a set of rules for this that makes any sense to me based on lived experience. I grew up climbing all sorts of stuff, trees to the very top, cliffs, rocks, the rough walls...readily doable with the right shoes and easy with climbing shoes. Not a particularly strong kid, but likely dexterous, and certainly never any training to years later and even later before started using ropes.
Yet every set of game rules ever come across on the subject would say what I did regularly was impossible, and should be dead. (For the record the one time I did fall was a failed Intelligence check). Even when what I did was possible, many rules make climbing abysmally slow.

Let's say I have climbing skill. Under TFT for example I can climb 2 yards per minute with handholds, or a yard per 2 minutes without. I can easily debunk that by going to the rock wall at my local REI and climb 2 yards in 10 seconds.

On what makes a difference, would be nice to see rules that use (implicitly at least) an existing classification system.

(2) Jumping: This is another area were the sweet spot of having it matter in an RPG seems elusive because in a lot of jumping a foot is a big difference, between average and world class. The conditions of Olympic jumping sets an upper limit in my mind but not RPG representative. Perhaps parkour sites and enthusiast would have useful information.

Really would like to have rules that could emulate well the scene in LotR where they have to jump, or be thrown. What would really be helpful as well are rules that can work for animals, especially horses, but also big cats and the like.

(3) Swimming: Here is where my personal expereince may mislead me (was full swimming before grade school, was a life guard, on swim team and would often win in my least favorite stroke and so bad in my favorite stroke only got to race that once). There is certainly a huge element of skill to win a race, but again swimming is even more of a small margins meaning the difference between average or world class thing.

People in shape can tread water for far longer than any game have seen, movement speeds are either incredibly slow or superfast if one multiples them out to kph or mph.

Again competitive sports can set an upper limit, but don't believe they are RPG representative. Perhaps data on the performance benchmarks for Navy SEALS would be good as they do this stuff in clothes.

It would be really good to have underwater swimming as that where how far and fast you can go seems to matter most in an RPG.

I think this is a good illustration of why "I can do" is not a great way of comparing skills. Simple fact is you have climbing skill, some people are naturally good climbers, some not so much. My wife's little brother, when he was about 10 could climb right up pine trees, up the bark as the branches were well out of his reach. He was good at climbing rocks too. The kid was like a freaking spider or a lizard. Me climbing a tree it better be like a funky ladder, or forget about it. Rocks I'm a little better, but still need some good cracks to get into. Give me a rope any day over free climbing.

I think most games also get climbing wrong, failure should simply be no advancement. A fall shouldn't occur unless there is a fumble, and a roll to stop yourself should be permitted after a fumble. Situation dependent, shear vertical, than yeah, tough luck should have been tied in.

Jumping has more room than I think you give it credit. World record long jump is 8.95 meters (nearly 30 feet) while the average person is less than half that 3.6-4.8 meters (12-16 feet). 4-5 meters in increments of 0.1m or even 0.5m gives pretty good granularity. Then you have standing high jump and pole vaulting which again there is a pretty good separation between average and world class. A lot of firefighter and police agility tests used to include getting over a 6 foot wall. That event has been reduced to 4 feet or deleted entirely because there are a lot of people that can't get over a 6 foot wall, or even a 4 foot. The wall (6 foot anyway) requires skill in both climbing and jumping.

Swimming, there is an element of speed, but I think endurance is where skill / experience really stands out. Early in my career while trying to get a job in the fire service I contemplated applying for Para-Rescue (basically paramedics who jump out of aircraft to rescue downed pilots) as there was a reserve unit near me and I met a couple of the guys in the unit who told me how to apply.
Part of the testing required swimming 60 laps (up and back being considered one lap) in a full size Olympic pool, and you had one hour to complete it. They said this was the part that weeded most people out, so it was highly suggested to train for that, as the rest was "easy" (mile run in x minutes, x # sit ups, x # push ups in a minute etc). I never did it because I ended up getting a job as a firefighter, but while training for it, I got to where I could do the 60 laps, but not at required speed. After 30 laps I was falling behind on the time. I am a pretty strong swimmer, was swimming well before kindergarten, was on city swim teams, not great but I took home several 2nd-3rd place, and even got a few 1st place if the opposing team was weak. I worked as a lifeguard for a time so think it is safe to say I was a better than average swimmer, and remain competent. At least I probably won't drown unless unconscious or lost at sea.
 
I think this is a good illustration of why "I can do" is not a great way of comparing skills. Simple fact is you have climbing skill, some people are naturally good climbers, some not so much. ....
Maybe, I might have some skill but my skill wasn't uncommon. Didn't do this alone as a kid, we all did this stuff and talk to others that grew up in the country and seems to track. We free climbed a lot in high school as well, at night, foolish as it seems now, on top of some big rocks was a great place to hang out undisturbed.

One thing I will inherently put in a set of rules, but sure if have seen it, it is always much harder to climb down than up.

I'm happy though to presume it requires a certain min dexterity or strength/weight ratio. I was also a very nerdy kid, read copiously, excelled at school,...so it is not like a MU (or intellect focused class) inherently couldn't do this stuff in my mind.

Of course in every thing here the baseline would be someone in good shape, which I think a lot of active adventurers would be (maybe not you average American), even if not muscle bound (I never was as a kid) it is more strength to body weight ratio.

I'm kind of surprised a 6 foot wall is a problem, as most can reach and readily jump to grab the top and with some momentum it is a very easy pull up.
 
I think this is a good illustration of why "I can do" is not a great way of comparing skills. Simple fact is you have climbing skill, some people are naturally good climbers, some not so much. My wife's little brother, when he was about 10 could climb right up pine trees, up the bark as the branches were well out of his reach. He was good at climbing rocks too. The kid was like a freaking spider or a lizard. Me climbing a tree it better be like a funky ladder, or forget about it. Rocks I'm a little better, but still need some good cracks to get into. Give me a rope any day over free climbing.

I think most games also get climbing wrong, failure should simply be no advancement. A fall shouldn't occur unless there is a fumble, and a roll to stop yourself should be permitted after a fumble. Situation dependent, shear vertical, than yeah, tough luck should have been tied in.

Jumping has more room than I think you give it credit. World record long jump is 8.95 meters (nearly 30 feet) while the average person is less than half that 3.6-4.8 meters (12-16 feet). 4-5 meters in increments of 0.1m or even 0.5m gives pretty good granularity. Then you have standing high jump and pole vaulting which again there is a pretty good separation between average and world class. A lot of firefighter and police agility tests used to include getting over a 6 foot wall. That event has been reduced to 4 feet or deleted entirely because there are a lot of people that can't get over a 6 foot wall, or even a 4 foot. The wall (6 foot anyway) requires skill in both climbing and jumping.

Swimming, there is an element of speed, but I think endurance is where skill / experience really stands out. Early in my career while trying to get a job in the fire service I contemplated applying for Para-Rescue (basically paramedics who jump out of aircraft to rescue downed pilots) as there was a reserve unit near me and I met a couple of the guys in the unit who told me how to apply.
Part of the testing required swimming 60 laps (up and back being considered one lap) in a full size Olympic pool, and you had one hour to complete it. They said this was the part that weeded most people out, so it was highly suggested to train for that, as the rest was "easy" (mile run in x minutes, x # sit ups, x # push ups in a minute etc). I never did it because I ended up getting a job as a firefighter, but while training for it, I got to where I could do the 60 laps, but not at required speed. After 30 laps I was falling behind on the time. I am a pretty strong swimmer, was swimming well before kindergarten, was on city swim teams, not great but I took home several 2nd-3rd place, and even got a few 1st place if the opposing team was weak. I worked as a lifeguard for a time so think it is safe to say I was a better than average swimmer, and remain competent. At least I probably won't drown unless unconscious or lost at sea.
I'd need to correct my estimates for jumping and swimming.
 
I know with jumping I ensured that if a character had peak human Might and an appropriate Trait (Athletics, etc), and they rolled a Red Phase result with a running start, then they could jump as far as the world record for an Olympic long jump - which is roughly 30 ft (9 m).
 
Athletic feats are always tricky. A cool systemless supplement would be something that just collects a bunch of good data on all these things, both for world records (which as Tristram suggests can then be used for a good roll for someone with training and peak attributes) and for average people (which I suggest be used for all PCs except ones significantly below average).

For climbing, consider how to minimize the number of rolls needed because statistics work against you. Even the "no progress" result isn't good because that just increases the number of rolls. Ideally a given climb should be reduced to a single roll.

Another thought is that unless you want-super heroic efforts, you don't want to exceed the records.

For historical games, it would be good to know records from the time period. I'm happy to use today's world records in a medieval fantasy RPG because I'm OK with a bit of super-heroic effort, but if I was running a non-super-heroic 1920s game, I wouldn't want people meeting or exceeding an olympic record that has dramatically increased since the 1920s...

I'd like good data for:

Jumping distances and heights
climbing speeds
swimming speeds and endurance
movement rates (for sprint, long distance, and trekking)
lifting
carrying capacity
 
Just want to say thanks everyone for input on this. Will come back in the near future with more input.

ffilz ffilz Yes to all that. :smile:
 
For climbing, consider how to minimize the number of rolls needed because statistics work against you. Even the "no progress" result isn't good because that just increases the number of rolls. Ideally a given climb should be reduced to a single roll.

This somewhat depends on the circumstances of the roll. In dramatically appropriate situations, particularly combat or when combat might be just one mistake away, multiple rolls made per round, along with "no progress" results can add to the tension and quickly unfolding circumstances. But with most random attempts to climb up a wall or a tree, I don't even bother with rolls, unless the player is being silly (and basically asking to have their characters break their neck) or there's some element of danger or challenge involved. And even then I usually just call for a single roll and treat failure as a setback that over extends the time it takes to complete climb.

I don't see much use for multiple rolls unless there quick-paced, round-based action going on, or if the character is attempting some type of complex extended task (which would typically involve crafting rather than athletics).
 
One of the (many) best things about The Fantasy Trip is that tactical movements like this are fully integrated into the game's core rules for movement and positioning, so a turn of climbing, jumping or swimming moves you around the battle mat in clear ways, with clear consequences and, when relevant, die rolls for challenges. This whole subject is a non issue in the game.
 
Athletic feats are always tricky. A cool systemless supplement would be something that just collects a bunch of good data on all these things, both for world records (which as Tristram suggests can then be used for a good roll for someone with training and peak attributes) and for average people (which I suggest be used for all PCs except ones significantly below average).

For climbing, consider how to minimize the number of rolls needed because statistics work against you. Even the "no progress" result isn't good because that just increases the number of rolls. Ideally a given climb should be reduced to a single roll.

Disagree, there is a huge difference between climbing Jam Crack a popular beginners climbing area in Yosemite, 100 feet vertical with a large crack that makes for good hand / foot holds and El Capitan which is 3000 feet vertical with a variety of features some harder and some easier than Jam Crack.

El Cap is not necessarily a more difficult climb, but it is a significantly longer climb so more opportunity to make a mistake. The statistics working against you, works well to make the long climb more difficult without making the individual rolls more difficult. Falling 100, 500 or 1500 feet is going to make you pretty dead regardless.
 
I think Dungeons & Dragons 5e rules works pretty well for what you want.
Climbing and Swimming are done at half normal speed. Walking speed is 30 feet per round for a normal human, so climbing and swimming are done at 15 feet per round. One round is six seconds, so that's a 2.5 feet per second. That's at standard speed too, you can double this by dashing but then you can't attack or do anything else in that round. Note that neither climbing nor swimming require skill checks in most situations. You may have to roll for Athletics to get anywhere in really rough waters, or to climb a cliff while fighting, but nothing for anything approaching an average situation. Now I don't know about Climbing, but that seems like a fast rate. As for Swimming, a normal D&D character can therefore swim all out at 30 feet per six seconds. That's 330 feet in 66 seconds. 330 feet is just over 100 meters, where the current world record is 46.91 seconds, but in 1905 was 65.8 seconds. So basically world record territory from a century ago, which still seems pretty good. If you take certain Feats or get certain class abilities you can also increase your movement speed, so if you really want to outswim César Cielo (current 100m world record holder) you can.

Jumping is handled a bit differently, but still in a simple way. A running long jump will take you as many feet as your strength score, which in standard D&D fashion ranges from 3-20 (with some extras, some Fighters get increases to their Jump length, Barbarians can increase their Strength scores past 20 at high level) with an average human being a 10 and a starting Fighter or Barbarian usually clocking in at 16. A bit less than the Olympic records, but this can be done while wearing armor and carrying a backpack. A long jump with no run up gets you half this distance, so 5 feet for an average human, 8 for a starting Strength based character. A high jump with a running start will get you 3 plus your Strength modifier (+1 for every 2 points above 10) off the ground, so an average human can high jump 3 feet, while that Strength 16 character will get six feet off the ground (humping with no run up again halves the height). This isn't a Fosbury flop either, that's where the character's feet are, they can then be perfectly vertical at that highest point and reach upward with their arms to half their height above their heads. So a six foot barbarian with Strength 6 could do a running long jump, get his feet six feet in the air and reach a ledge 15 feet high to pull themselves up. None of this requires an Athletics roll either, you could let the players leap even further with a successful roll.

Overall, this makes 5e characters feel capable, and larger than life, rather than struggling to do things ordinary people can do fairly easily in real life.
 
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Disagree, there is a huge difference between climbing Jam Crack a popular beginners climbing area in Yosemite, 100 feet vertical with a large crack that makes for good hand / foot holds and El Capitan which is 3000 feet vertical with a variety of features some harder and some easier than Jam Crack.

El Cap is not necessarily a more difficult climb, but it is a significantly longer climb so more opportunity to make a mistake. The statistics working against you, works well to make the long climb more difficult without making the individual rolls more difficult. Falling 100, 500 or 1500 feet is going to make you pretty dead regardless.
I never said a longer climb should have the same roll as a shorter climb. My point is that the way RPG skill rolls work, say requiring one skill roll per "move" on the climb makes longer climbs deadly. Part of it is that most game systems don't actually model the climber who is ready for El Cap. The climber who is ready for El Cap doesn't have a 5% chance of failure every "move" like many game systems do (1 always fails, 96-00 always fails, whatever, even if we only look at the "always at least 1% chance of a fumble"). I'm not sure what the right way to model these things is.

Hmm, one way to look at it, and El Cap might have enough data to do an analysis. Is the reality of accidents on any given El Cap climbing route is that most of the accidents are associated with just a small number of parts of the route? If so, that would suggest that the model is that you make a skill roll at each of those points and maybe use a skill gate to determine if you even have the skill to make the climb at all. If the truth is that the accidents for a route are distributed all over the route, then we need a different model.

But all to often I have seen RPG climbs broken down into such short segments that the chance of ultimate failure becomes ridiculous.

Of course the other problem is that modern climbing techniques (and equipment) for El Cap look nothing like what our fantastical medieval "thief" is using...

On the other hand, the Pueblo people who inhabited Mesa Verde free handed up and down cliffs on a daily basis with no equipment. Even a 1% chance of failure each climb would probably doom the inhabitants.

Another place to look at these types of rolls... When I was playing TFT, I looked at the jobs table, and realized I would hate to play out the life of someone doing just about any job using that table. Chances are your character wouldn't survive a year on the job... The roll seems like a neat way to keep adventurers adventuring and not relying on jobs. It's a horrible simulation of a daily routine.
 
I never said a longer climb should have the same roll as a shorter climb. My point is that the way RPG skill rolls work, say requiring one skill roll per "move" on the climb makes longer climbs deadly. Part of it is that most game systems don't actually model the climber who is ready for El Cap. The climber who is ready for El Cap doesn't have a 5% chance of failure every "move" like many game systems do (1 always fails, 96-00 always fails, whatever, even if we only look at the "always at least 1% chance of a fumble"). I'm not sure what the right way to model these things is.

Hmm, one way to look at it, and El Cap might have enough data to do an analysis. Is the reality of accidents on any given El Cap climbing route is that most of the accidents are associated with just a small number of parts of the route? If so, that would suggest that the model is that you make a skill roll at each of those points and maybe use a skill gate to determine if you even have the skill to make the climb at all. If the truth is that the accidents for a route are distributed all over the route, then we need a different model.

But all to often I have seen RPG climbs broken down into such short segments that the chance of ultimate failure becomes ridiculous.

Of course the other problem is that modern climbing techniques (and equipment) for El Cap look nothing like what our fantastical medieval "thief" is using...

On the other hand, the Pueblo people who inhabited Mesa Verde free handed up and down cliffs on a daily basis with no equipment. Even a 1% chance of failure each climb would probably doom the inhabitants.

Another place to look at these types of rolls... When I was playing TFT, I looked at the jobs table, and realized I would hate to play out the life of someone doing just about any job using that table. Chances are your character wouldn't survive a year on the job... The roll seems like a neat way to keep adventurers adventuring and not relying on jobs. It's a horrible simulation of a daily routine.

That is why I was saying a fail should not necessarily equal a fall and even a fumble should not necessarily mean a catastrophic fall. Fail equals fall just turns climbing into a save vs death. Still whether 3000 feet of El Cap or shimmying up a drain pipe to the roof, it should be harder, but not necessarily more difficult, to get to the roof of a single story building vs a 6 story building. The longer climb offers more chance to goof, but really is just more of the same not actually more technically difficult. Climbing in dry weather vs when there is snow and ice which on the ground on the other hand, the snow and ice should be significantly more challenging (penalty to the roll).

This could be a good use of variable distances, say up to 20 feet requires a roll, 20-100 feet a second roll, 100-500 feet a 3rd roll etc, so in the vast majority of cases there would only be 1-2 rolls made, some outliers with 3 and rarely 4+ for exceptional climbs. Distance of course to flavor. Consider multiple rolls changes the attempt from pass / fail to a time to reach the top with an increasing potential cost of failure. Fumble the first roll, maybe you just can't find a good spot to get a hand hold, double fumble 1000 feet above the ground, and there isn't even much equipment left that the party can salvage from the crater you made.

Results of failure also varies wildly, vertical they are fairly dire, but just very steep, or "steps" limiting how far one is likely to fall would greatly reduce the cost of failure, and if plummet to your doom only occurs on a double fumble that is what 1 in 400? (assuming 5% chance of a fumble). There is also don't force a roll for routine. You don't make a PC roll to walk up stairs or climb a ladder unless they are doing something weird so you don't need to make a PC with high climbing roll, roll for a trivial climb. If you are climbing the same tree or piece of ground frequently that becomes fairly routine. I mean I wouldn't make Tarzan roll every time he gets home to his tree house, but I'd still make him roll to climb a cliff or a strange tree.
 
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That is why I was saying a fail should not necessarily equal a fall and even a fumble should not necessarily mean a catastrophic fall. Fail equals fall just turns climbing into a save vs death. Still whether 3000 feet of El Cap or shimmying up a drain pipe to the roof, it should be harder, but not necessarily more difficult, to get to the roof of a single story building vs a 6 story building. The longer climb offers more chance to goof, but really is just more of the same not actually more technically difficult. Climbing in dry weather vs when there is snow and ice which on the ground on the other hand, the snow and ice should be significantly more challenging (penalty to the roll).

This could be a good use of variable distances, say up to 20 feet requires a roll, 20-100 feet a second roll, 100-500 feet a 3rd roll etc, so in the vast majority of cases there would only be 1-2 rolls made, some outliers with 3 and rarely 4+ for exceptional climbs. Distance of course to flavor. Consider multiple rolls changes the attempt from pass / fail to a time to reach the top with an increasing potential cost of failure. Fumble the first roll, maybe you just can't find a good spot to get a hand hold, double fumble 1000 feet above the ground, and there isn't even much equipment left that the party can salvage from the crater you made.

Results of failure also varies wildly, vertical they are fairly dire, but just very steep, or "steps" limiting how far one is likely to fall would greatly reduce the cost of failure, and if plummet to your doom only occurs on a double fumble that is what 1 in 400? (assuming 5% chance of a fumble). There is also don't force a roll for routine. You don't make a PC roll to walk up stairs or climb a ladder unless they are doing something weird so you don't need to make a PC with high climbing roll, roll for a trivial climb. If you are climbing the same tree or piece of ground frequently that becomes fairly routine. I mean I wouldn't make Tarzan roll every time he gets home to his tree house, but I'd still make him roll to climb a cliff or a strange tree.
The question is what does a fail mean? A no progress result is only interesting in a round by round combat type situation where the situation has many vectors for change so one roll resulting in "nothing happens" isn't bad. But dealing with a climb of El Cap with multiple rolls with no progress results is just drawing out the dice rolling and not gaining anything.

My preference thus for such a climb if there isn't something else driving a need to know the intermediate steps is to resolve the climb with a single roll which then results in success, success with complication, failure (some chance you just have to give up and back off), or a fall with serious injury or even death. Now clearly such a roll is different for El Cap than the not really a cliff 30' bluff.
 
(1) Climbing: I do not know if I have ever seen a set of rules for this that makes any sense to me based on lived experience. I grew up climbing all sorts of stuff, trees to the very top, cliffs, rocks, the rough walls...readily doable with the right shoes and easy with climbing shoes. Not a particularly strong kid, but likely dexterous, and certainly never any training to years later and even later before started using ropes.
Yet every set of game rules ever come across on the subject would say what I did regularly was impossible, and should be dead. (For the record the one time I did fall was a failed Intelligence check). Even when what I did was possible, many rules make climbing abysmally slow.

Let's say I have climbing skill. Under TFT for example I can climb 2 yards per minute with handholds, or a yard per 2 minutes without. I can easily debunk that by going to the rock wall at my local REI and climb 2 yards in 10 seconds.

On what makes a difference, would be nice to see rules that use (implicitly at least) an existing classification system.

Minutes? You should measure in rounds. In Novus 2e, I use the following rules (complications add either 3 or 5 to the Target Number of the task)

This task can be performed with either the Athletics or the Athletics skills. The basic TN allows for climbing a knotted rope or bracing against a wall as you climb. It also includes ship rigging or a wall with many ledges to use. A typical dungeon wall with few handholds would be a Major Complication, while trying to climb a rough rock or a brick wall would have 2 Major Complications stacked onto the TN.

(2) Jumping: This is another area were the sweet spot of having it matter in an RPG seems elusive because in a lot of jumping a foot is a big difference, between average and world class. The conditions of Olympic jumping sets an upper limit in my mind but not RPG representative. Perhaps parkour sites and enthusiast would have useful information.

Really would like to have rules that could emulate well the scene in LotR where they have to jump, or be thrown. What would really be helpful as well are rules that can work for animals, especially horses, but also big cats and the like.


In Novus 2e, for Jumping, I use the following rules This would use the Acrobatics or Athletics skill. A single Jump Increment (JI) is equal to the height of the character. A basic running long jump, with a 20’ running start will be equal to 3x the JI for the character. Increasing the jump by 1 JI adds a Major Complication; one half of a JI increase would be a Minor Complication. A standing broad jump, without a running start, is equal to the JI of the character. Each one half of a JI increase for a standing broad jump adds a Major Complication. A high jump, with a 20’ running start, would one JI as the basic TN. Each one half of a JI increase in height would be a Minor Complication, while a full JI increase in height would be a Major Complication.

This makes it based on the height of the character (complications add either 3 or 5 to the Target Number of the task)

(3) Swimming: Here is where my personal expereince may mislead me (was full swimming before grade school, was a life guard, on swim team and would often win in my least favorite stroke and so bad in my favorite stroke only got to race that once). There is certainly a huge element of skill to win a race, but again swimming is even more of a small margins meaning the difference between average or world class thing.

People in shape can tread water for far longer than any game have seen, movement speeds are either incredibly slow or superfast if one multiples them out to kph or mph.

Again competitive sports can set an upper limit, but don't believe they are RPG representative. Perhaps data on the performance benchmarks for Navy SEALS would be good as they do this stuff in clothes.

It would be really good to have underwater swimming as that where how far and fast you can go seems to matter most in an RPG.

Same basic guidelines as for CLimbing (basic roll TN 15) for the skill if you are over your head in water (currents and other conditions (like wearing rmor) can add Complications).
 
I'm with the idea of an Athletics skill of some kind, roll it if it's beyond their skill, if they fail it takes longer or they have a setback (make a ruling), if they crit fail they might get hurt. And if a character can't swim or climb, they can note it on their character sheet as an exception to the rule. I've never really looked up the actual rules in most of my games because I don't need more. If you have a player who wants a dramatic climbing or swimming simulation, then go for it.
 
Yeah, I often treat the results of the rolls as percentage of the intended result (i.e. climbing 10'? you only made it 5' last round, but made it 12' this round), the same for jumping and swimming (swimming reuqires at least the basic skill, though a roll using just stats, if the character is not encumbered/panicking, can be used to tread water (not well, but well enough to not drown...)

Though depending on what you are attempting to jump over.... a percentage result could be painful (starts singing George of the jungle theme song in my head).
 
The question is what does a fail mean? A no progress result is only interesting in a round by round combat type situation where the situation has many vectors for change so one roll resulting in "nothing happens" isn't bad. But dealing with a climb of El Cap with multiple rolls with no progress results is just drawing out the dice rolling and not gaining anything.

My preference thus for such a climb if there isn't something else driving a need to know the intermediate steps is to resolve the climb with a single roll which then results in success, success with complication, failure (some chance you just have to give up and back off), or a fall with serious injury or even death. Now clearly such a roll is different for El Cap than the not really a cliff 30' bluff.

That is true for anything though, context matters.

Trying to climb up out of an alley full of zombies time matters, falling down 10 feet may not kill you, but it puts you back in reach of the zombies which might. Got all day to make the climb? eh you've got a climb of 75% call it an hour and you can climb out of the canyon (no roll required).

Need to rewire a light switch, yeah, your not an electrician but you've got some tools and a book, you can do it. Or defusing a time bomb, the clock is counting down from 15 seconds, do you cut the red wire or the blue wire, tick, tock, tick, tock.
 
That is true for anything though, context matters.

Trying to climb up out of an alley full of zombies time matters, falling down 10 feet may not kill you, but it puts you back in reach of the zombies which might. Got all day to make the climb? eh you've got a climb of 75% call it an hour and you can climb out of the canyon (no roll required).

Need to rewire a light switch, yeah, your not an electrician but you've got some tools and a book, you can do it. Or defusing a time bomb, the clock is counting down from 15 seconds, do you cut the red wire or the blue wire, tick, tock, tick, tock.
Right, that's what I said, if you're doing round by round combat, then yea, no progress means the zombies get to attack again, and if you fall, that may not kill you, but now your down on the ground amidst the zombies which probably puts you at some disadvantage depending on the combat system in use.
 
IDK, I handle all three of these as stat rolls with some bennies based on character stuff. I'm playing without a skill system of course, but stat rolls seem to work just fine.
 
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