Communication with Game Developers or lack of.

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Acmegamer

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So last year I noted that I spent over $4k USD on my gaming hobby, between Kickstarter's, Tabletop RPGs and some online gaming that I do. I'm mentioning the amount because it gives you an idea of what I'm willing to spend on my hobbies and passions. (We won't go into how much I spend on my motorcycle addiction er hobby)

One ongoing point of frustration is how some game developers go about communicating with others or not. One company that I felt used to be pretty good with communicating was Steve Jackson Games. I've noted that in the last year plus in particular that their communication skills have become rather spotty, selective ignoring of easy to answer questions etc. This has lead me to a growing sense of frustration with them and reducing my desire to support them. I've backed quite a few of their Kickstarter's only not backing one when I didn't care for a design direction or if I truly felt that I was tapped out. What I mean is that I felt that I'd spent too much on my hobby that particular month and didn't want to annoy my ever supporting spouse.

Anyhow when I back Kickstarters I'm one of those who goes all in. I've backed The Fantasy Trip full in when Steve regained the rights because I was thrilled for him and wanted to support that. Even if I wasn't going to play, I was happy to add it to my collection. I did have fond memories of playing Melee and Wizard back in 1980 at game shop I hung out in of course, but I'd mostly moved on and felt that GURPS was superior to it. That said I wanted to back further work he did with it and so I'd continue to back future TFT Kickstarter's that came out.

Problem is and I found this to be true last year with a GURPS Kickstarter that they'll suddenly become blind to questions and refuse to acknowledge the questions being asked. I get that they're busy and I get that some questions ones they want to avoid but seriously at least respond to those who want to support your endeavors.
Long winded rambling post which I apologize for, I'm mostly wanting to vent and get this off my chest. Anyhow SJG's when they do Kickstarter's include PDF's with their Kickstarter's. This currently "QuickStarter" though they aren't mentioning whether PDF"s are included or not. So I thought I'd ask on their forums which I'm not really an active person on but I do go there from time to time to ask questions mostly. (I'm not fond of unsecure forums as an aside)

Remember this is a Quickstarter so time is of the essence if they want my money. Two days later and they've still not responded to what I felt was a reasonably asked question. A simple "no" we aren't providing those would suffice even if I wouldn't have been happy with the answer I'm at least happy that they responded. A "yes", those are included would be better don't get me wrong since I read on my Surface Pro or my Kindle these days more than physical books. (thanks aging close up vision) A no answer might have continued to at least get me to back future projects, but silence is guaranteed to sour me to the point of not backing anything in the future.

SJG isn't the only one to pull this lack of communication but in this case they're the current one I am frustrated with because they might not get anymore money from me which I feel is a damn shame. I'll still be spending that money but I'll be spending it Pinnacle Games or Chaosium based games. I already do that mind you, it just means more to them and none to SJG in this case. Am I being unreasonable?

Here's the Kickstarter... it's got three days to go, since it's Quickstarter. Oh and with how flimsy the Adventure Cards are, I'd definitely want PDF versions of them so I'd have backups that I could markup and add to if I wanted. I'll note that one of the backers under the comments section asked about the PDF question and though SJG's responded to questions all around this person's post they skipped replying to him. This is the same issue I ran into last year with a GURPS Kickstarter BTW. I think of us can attest to how frustrating it feels to see someone answering everyone else's questions and obviously avoiding theirs.



This is the post I did on the SJG Forums myself.


I also mentioned this on the forums here under the Kickstarter thread when someone posted the Kickstarter, didn't get a reply though here it's because someone from SJG isn't posting as far as I can tell and none of the posters knew of course.
 
Insofar as Kickstarter goes, yeah I think during a campaign there is a certain standard or actually "running a crowdfunding campaign" required that some companies are lacksadaisical about as they treat it like a pre-order system.

At which point backers really should"vote with their dollar" I think. I know after everything else, I look at communication during a KS as a deciding factor as to whether I will back.
 
Given how shitty and entitled many folk online have turned out to be, I'm actually surprised many companies are as communicative as they are.

And yes, if you're a reasonable person it does suck for you that your perfectly reasonable messages are being ignored, but for them to see your message they have to wade through all the shit that the abusive chunk of the internet throws at them; "just ignore it, just block those people" doesn't work as a solution because they have to see the messages first so the abusive chunk of the internet effectively gets a free shot.
 
Given how shitty and entitled many folk online have turned out to be, I'm actually surprised many companies are as communicative as they are.

And yes, if you're a reasonable person it does suck for you that your perfectly reasonable messages are being ignored, but for them to see your message they have to wade through all the shit that the abusive chunk of the internet throws at them; "just ignore it, just block those people" doesn't work as a solution because they have to see the messages first so the abusive chunk of the internet effectively gets a free shot.


Oh yeah, large KS comment sections these days are a toxic mindfield. I do feel bad for any company guy who has to wade into that.

In fact, the last Hellboy Boardgame Kickstarter I got a PM from the guy running the comments section because I basically ran interference for him, trying to tone down the toxicity

rob mantic.PNG
 
Oh yeah, large KS comment sections these days are a toxic mindfield. I do feel bad for any company guy who has to wade into that.

In fact, the last Hellboy Boardgame Kickstarter I got a PM from the guy running the comments section because I basically ran interference for him, trying to tone down the toxicity

View attachment 31603
Yeah I saw folks trying to do that with the Talislanta KS. People can be dick's. It's nice when the sane folks try to make it bearable for the folks doing the work
 
Oh yeah, large KS comment sections these days are a toxic mindfield. I do feel bad for any company guy who has to wade into that.

In fact, the last Hellboy Boardgame Kickstarter I got a PM from the guy running the comments section because I basically ran interference for him, trying to tone down the toxicity

View attachment 31603
“Trisram,

In appreciation for all the interference you’ve been running for the last 24 hours, Mantic would like to give you double all of the Kickstarter rewards for this campaign. Not only that, we are sending you an exclusive Hellboy life-sized statue valued at over $10,000. But wait, there’s more! We are sending you a trip to have a once-in-a-lifetime dinner with Hellboy creator Mike Mignola! Thanks again for all your help!”
 
About two years back I backed an expansion for a game whose publisher has released several books and run several Kickstarters. They went quiet on Kickstarter after the campaign ended, and I ended up following them on social media, where they alternated between complaining about COVID and saying it was very hard to write an expansion. Then, late last year, they revealed they had been working on a second edition of their game, which they were Kickstarting soon. I felt like I led the charge on those of us who backed the last Kickstarter getting our stuff.



I’ve got another game where the developers have decided to use two different platforms to deliver digital items, instead of DriveThruRPG only. I have to ask them to send me a copy of whatever new digital item that comes out that I’m owed, as the one platform doesn’t support phones or tablets.



They honestly seemed to have trouble comprehending why I wouldn’t back the new edition since I hadn’t received the book I backed. As it is, I’ve only received PDFs I was owed, and have no idea if I’ll ever get my limited edition hardcopy.



I recently had a non-game Kickstarter where a number of higher-tier backers (myself included) didn’t receive our items. There was a vast period of silence from the fellow running the Kickstarter with regards to our questions (with only one person being what I’d consider rude of n the comments section) before we were informed that a number of packages were held up in a New Jersey post office for reasons unknown. It was great we finally got our stuff, but as far as the silence that was totally not cool.



I had another Kickstarter that was a semi-disaster, with the publisher putting out more Kickstarters and Indiegogos while we were waiting on out stuff. I ran into one of the folks who works at the publisher hyping their latest crowdfunding effort, whereupon I brought up that I’d not only backed their first Kickstarter, but at their highest level. I think fear a whale such as myself might not support them in the future led to them suddenly becoming responsive on Kickstarter again, as well as me getting my stuff safe and sound. I’m sad to say from what I’ve heard those who backed at lower levels haven’t had a good time at receiving their stuff, or at least undamaged.



So, yeah, Acmegamer Acmegamer I feel you on this.
 
It's why I'm so gun shy of kickstarter. I really need to start making some money but whenever I look at kickstarter the little Admiral Ackabar on my shoulder shouts, "It's a trap!"
 
I’d assume if they don’t mention PDFs they are not included. I recently got there “I want it all” TFT package couldn’t see if PDFs were included. They weren’t, which is kind of nickel and diming of them. I guess “all” does not include PDFs

I’m with you though, customer relations are abysmal and primative in the rpg world.
 
I’d assume if they don’t mention PDFs they are not included. I recently got there “I want it all” TFT package couldn’t see if PDFs were included. They weren’t, which is kind of nickel and diming of them. I guess “all” does not include PDFs

I’m with you though, customer relations are abysmal and primative in the rpg world.
That's, like, total bullshit from any company...:shocked:
 
I've been a fan of SJG for over 40 years, so this silence is unacceptable to me. I and someone else asked a simple question, we weren't rude and we weren't pushy. There isn't a large amount of communication going on under the Kickstarter nor under their forum thread. Both which I posted links to above.

I've been "all in" on a lot of their Kickstarter's during the past few years and overall I've been very happy with each and every one. Everyone of them included PDF's along with the physical items. Hell I've even double downed in some cases where I've bought duplicates of everything for the Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter. I love supporting game companies, but when they're assholes or they don't communicate I quickly sour on them.

This Quickstarter has around 24 hours to go, and they'll miss out on me supporting them on it. Here's the kicker though, they've lost me on all future Kickstarters. Whereas I might have passed on this particular Kickstarter due to a lack of PDF's, had they bothered to respond to my post on their forums or to the gentleman who is a backer on the Kickstarter with a "no we're not doing PDF's" or "yes they're included", silence guarantees a loss of all future money from me.

I'm retired with a decent amount of disposable income for my hobbies and I love to support gaming and I'm not a troll. I post questions in respectful manner. If on a slower forum like their forum they can't be bothered than neither can I.
 
Stupid question: Are there ”backer-only” kickstarters, i.e. where the core product (I'm not talking about stretch goals backer level goodies) is only available to backers? So far I haven't experienced the degree of suffering necessary to up and pledge for anything, telling myself that I can always get the book through retailers. But I wonder if that's always an alternative.
 
"just ignore it, just block those people" doesn't work as a solution because they have to see the messages first so the abusive chunk of the internet effectively gets a free shot.
On a sidenote, this is also why telling victims targets of internet bullying to just ignore or block generally doesn't work, especially not if they need their social media for their profession, hobby or school.
 
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Stupid question: Are there ”backer-only” kickstarters, i.e. where the core product (I'm not talking about stretch goals backer level goodies) is only available to backers? So far I haven't experienced the degree of suffering necessary to up and pledge for anything, telling myself that I can always get the book through retailers. But I wonder if that's always an alternative.
It does happen, but typically for more obscure products where the KS is funding a more limited run. Many gaming kickstarters these days (Especially the ones that get big advertising campaigns in geek media) are just glorified preorders, with the perk being getting the product earlier and with a discount over retail, with maybe a few bits of KS-exclusive merch thrown in.
 
[…] with the perk being getting the product earlier and with a discount over retail, […].
Well I'll never get anything earlier and whatever discount will get eaten up by massive overseas shipping surcharge, so that's not much of a perk for me. Anyway, thanks for your answer; seems I'm not missing out on too much.
 
I will always be open to communication, if it comes through a channel I remember I have... Heh. (So many channels and stuff of communication some get lost.)
 
It does happen, but typically for more obscure products where the KS is funding a more limited run. Many gaming kickstarters these days (Especially the ones that get big advertising campaigns in geek media) are just glorified preorders, with the perk being getting the product earlier and with a discount over retail, with maybe a few bits of KS-exclusive merch thrown in.
But that seems to be the model that works best for kickstarters. It seems better for established midsized companies that have difficulty accessing retail stores than it is for small start-ups because the midsized company already knows they can make the product and bring it to market. Start-ups often don't and that's where the trouble lies.
 
But that seems to be the model that works best for kickstarters. It seems better for established midsized companies that have difficulty accessing retail stores than it is for small start-ups because the midsized company already knows they can make the product and bring it to market. Start-ups often don't and that's where the trouble lies.
It's the model that works best for Kickstarter, but it falls back to the general issue of KS wanting to be a store and get it's 7% but also not have the obligations of running a store and ensuring folk actually get the product they paid for. I don't think that, say, White Wolf, should be using it as a funding source; they don't need it any more.

Personally I'm still not convinced it's the best option for customers, but I suspect I'm in a minority on this. And I like the original concept of "hey, I've got this idea, is there a market willing to fund me to give it a shot at development?" that KS originally kinda pushed itself as (And that other categories on the site still use).
 
Phil Reed responded finally on the SJG forums, this Kickstarter they aren't including pdf's with the Quickstarter. It's a pass for me due to that but at least he responded before the Quickstarter ended, which means I'll possibly back a future Kickstarter's by them since he did communicate within the time it would have allowed me to back the project.

It's truly not hard to communicate with those who want to back your projects, especially if the questions aren't rudely worded and easily answered. To not respond makes your potential backers more hesitant to back.
 
It's the model that works best for Kickstarter, but it falls back to the general issue of KS wanting to be a store and get it's 7% but also not have the obligations of running a store and ensuring folk actually get the product they paid for. I don't think that, say, White Wolf, should be using it as a funding source; they don't need it any more.

Personally I'm still not convinced it's the best option for customers, but I suspect I'm in a minority on this. And I like the original concept of "hey, I've got this idea, is there a market willing to fund me to give it a shot at development?" that KS originally kinda pushed itself as (And that other categories on the site still use).

I think there's a few genuine advantages I can see, but as much for the publisher as the customer, none that are customer only. (And ironically ones that mostly rely on using it as a pre order system.

1. The thing of allowing products to get developed that might not otherwise does still exist. The modern gamebook market is pretty reliant on KS. At the very least, I think almost everything would be PDF only without Kickstarter.

2. It does subidise small publishers through working as a preorder system. I'm pretty sure that Maelstrom Domesday: The Domesday Campaign would have happened without crowdfunding. But giving Arion the money upfront likely sped up the process. But that's because I trust Graham Bottley and know that his idea of "late" is measured in months, not years. And that's an odd one, because to actually be beneficial it needs publishers that aren't big enough that they would be fully capable of funding the project upfront themselves nor ones so small and new that they don't have a proven track record in running KS campaigns.

But for me at least, the downsides outweigh any positives.

1. The shifting of risk entirely on to the consumer. This is just completely taking the piss. Especially this:

"Our site operates on a system of trust and backers ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by deciding to support it."

I note that the part of the money raised that goes to KS does not in fact operate on a system of trust in any way. At the moment, KS has all the downsides of a preorder system, but also makes you roll a die to decide whether you get what you paid for. And then insults everyone's intelligence by pretending that's not exactly how "get what you paid for" is what their site is used for and how they make their money.

2. The Stretch Goal arms race. Overly ambitious stretch goals are probably responsible for more unfulfilled KSes than any other single factor. That one is one where I think customers are partly to blame. In particular, new creators are often put under a lot of pressure to put stupid goals in to get the funding.

3. The focus on KS bling over content. You don't see this much in RPGs, but KS has a major share of the blame for the state of the modern board game market. Lots of games with fancy minis and no gameplay. (This, along with feeling alienated from the rampant consumerism that passes for "passion" among many board gamers, is why these days I almost exclusively buy old games from the secondary market. Although I'm getting together a printer and other stuff to do print and play properly).

I don't think KS is all bad and I will occasionally back a creator who I trust to deliver. (Which in itself gets away from KS's supposed purpose). And I am arguably hypocritical because I am considering crowdfunding for one of my own projects. But still, overall I consider KS to be a net negative on gaming.
 
One particular current trend I find annoying is that some Kickstarters will reach their funding goal but the creator will cance the project anyways because it doesn't meet some secret expectation of higher funding to which the stretch goals are considered a part of the planned success, rather than a bonus. Starting to see this frequently with boardgames over the last year.
 
Stupid question: Are there ”backer-only” kickstarters, i.e. where the core product (I'm not talking about stretch goals backer level goodies) is only available to backers? So far I haven't experienced the degree of suffering necessary to up and pledge for anything, telling myself that I can always get the book through retailers. But I wonder if that's always an alternative.
This is increasingly common in the board game industry.

The downside of Kickstarter exclusive Kickstarters being that you limit your fanbase to a niche of a niche.

KS-exclusive RPG books seem like they would be an absolute death sentence for a game line, but if you make enough money off of it, you probably wouldn't care.

If I was creating my own RPG and did a Kickstarter, there wouldn’t be any stretch goals. You get the core rule book and that’s it. Any future books are their own Kickstarters.

Pinnacle now runs crowdfunding campaigns on multiple platforms, alternating, crowdfunding supplements this way on the non-KS platforms, targeting their really hardcore fanbase (and saving the Kickstarters for stuff that's likely to rope in newer players, like Savage Pathfinder).
 
One particular current trend I find annoying is that some Kickstarters will reach their funding goal but the creator will cance the project anyways because it doesn't meet some secret expectation of higher funding to which the stretch goals are considered a part of the planned success, rather than a bonus. Starting to see this frequently with boardgames over the last year.

Interesting. I hadn't seen that. I've seen canceling because it became obvious it was going to fail. (I'm not doubting you, just saying I've managed to avoid those situations, apparently.)
 
Interesting. I hadn't seen that. I've seen canceling because it became obvious it was going to fail. (I'm not doubting you, just saying I've managed to avoid those situations, apparently.)

I'' see if I can pull up examples. It's generally been the big boardgame KS with lots of minis
 
I've not actually done a lot of backing in the RPG world, but as far as board games go, I find as long as you do your due diligence on the company you are backing things usually go fine.

Things might be late occasionally, but overall I find the positives outweigh the negatives... as long as you do a little work on making sure you know who you can trust.

(I do still occasionally back a small board game from a new creator if it looks interesting and is actually a small project (like $20-30 bucks), cause its like "well this is what kickstarter was originally for, and if I lose out on 20 bucks no big deal", but even those have gone well).
 
An easy goal would be something like an autographed copy of the rule book for an additional $20. That’s just a matter of having some copies sent to the author and then they mail them back out. The money is to account for postage.
 
I've been investigating various aspects of running a Kickstarter for a while now as Phaserip nears completion, and to be honest, stretch goals are one of the things that worries me the most. They seem to be expected, but 1) I don't want to artificially remove elements from the game just to add them as Stretch Goals, 2) I don't want to promise more work that will extend the time it takes to complete what's initially offered, and 3) I don't want a bunch of pointless Redbubble tchotchkes like mugs or Tshirts just to pad out the campaign.

Right now I'm looking at possible upgrades to print quality - hardcover, ribbon bookmark, paper quality as stretch goals, and a few useful gaming accessories like partnering with a dice manufacturer for some bespoke percentile dice sets. But honesty I'd prefer no stretch goals - just the product, and maybe some add ons
 
An easy goal would be something like an autographed copy of the rule book for an additional $20. That’s just a matter of having some copies sent to the author and then they mail them back out. The money is to account for postage.

Depending on the number of backers, this might need to be followed up with a GoFundMe for carpel tunnel surgery.
 
I actually don’t think a lot of gamers like any kind of writing in their books, even if it’s an autograph. I actually don’t think a lot would take up that offer.
 
I'd probably do a signed edition as a highler pledge with a strict backer limit

Personally, I've never seen the point of autographs. I simply don't grasp it as a concept. I've spoken to creators I ike at cons and they've asked if I wanted anything signed and I'm like "no, I'm OK"
 
I'd probably do a signed edition as a highler pledge with a strict backer limit

Personally, I've never seen the point of autographs. I simply don't grasp it as a concept. I've spoken to creators I ike at cons and they've asked if I wanted anything signed and I'm like "no, I'm OK"
Generally it seems to be "so I can resell it later", something I very rarely do. It'll be up to my wife and/or kids to decide what to do with all the worthless shit I've accumulated over the years when I'm dead.
 
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