D&D 5e: OSR-style

[Necrozius]

It is no secret to forum regulars that I’m now a Mythras convert. However for the sake of friends and family (and my kids’ friends) I am stuck with 5e for a while.

There is a charm to the somewhat simplified mechanics of OSR games. I would like to bring that “feel” to 5e without copious hacking and house rules.

Assuming you were STUCK with 5e, but were able to adjust D&D 5e’s “dials” to make a more “Old school” or minimalist style, how would you do it?

Here is my first draft of an approach using RAW or DMG options:

• Classes: Basic rules (Champion Fighter, Life Cleric, Thief Rogue and Evocation Wizard)
• Races: Tasha's Custom Lineage but PCs have access to a racial feat during character creation only
• Feats: none, except during character creation (Custom lineage) and for the Fighter class
• Skills: none, use the DMG variant of Ability check proficiency, one chosen from Class the other from Background, works with Rogue's Expertise)
• Magic: spell point variant from the DMG (not very OSR, I know, I just hate typical Vancian D&D magic)

Bonus House Rules (I can't help myself):

• No dark vision/night vision except for monsters.
• Hit points: Fighter d10, Rogue d8, Cleric d6 and Wizard d4
• Weapons: d6/d8/d10 (simple, martial, martial two-handed, with only a few with special rules)
• Long Rests: if taken outside of a friendly settlement, only regain 1/4 of total hit dice, rather than 1/2.
• Shields: provide passive half cover (extra +2 AC) against ranged attacks (weapon or spell). Taking Dodge action increases cover to three quarters cover (extra +4 AC). too complex, really, instead I'd let a shield bearing character spend their Reaction to get a cover bonus of +2 AC. Simpler that way.
• Helmets and Shields: destroy to cancel all damage from one source (e.g. weapon attack, trap damage etc.) edit: just another complication, removed

How about you? How would you do it?

Edit; I preferred some of Sosthenes ' ideas, made a quick edit...

 

[Sosthenes]

I basically did a lot of that (no feats, no darkvision), with the "hardcore" resting variant (night = short rest, week = long rest) and it was okay. I still did skills, es eliminating felt like more work than keeping them in. That was early in the days, so we only used the PHB races/class/paths anyways.

OSR is different to everyone, but if minimalism is the goal, I think you're on the right path. I'm not the biggest fan of the "shall be splintered" rule or high-lethality hit dice, but mileages do vary.

Some things I'd consider for a more OSRy feel:
- Fewer/simpler spells. They're probably the biggest source of complexity. Five Torches Deep cut them to one or two sentences each.
- Smaller attribute bonuses, like B/X. Makes the level and magic do more work.
- Weapons being basically d6/d8/d10 (simple, martial, martial two-handed, with only a few with special rules)
- No Perception (either via elminating the skill or no Wis checks for that)

Instead of the Basic classes, one could also do the new Sidekick NPC classes for PCs.
Although at that time, I might go for Five Torches Deep anyway.

 

[Necrozius]

- Fewer/simpler spells. They're probably the biggest source of complexity. Five Torches Deep cut them to one or two sentences each.
- Smaller attribute bonuses, like B/X. Makes the level and magic do more work.
- Weapons being basically d6/d8/d10 (simple, martial, martial two-handed, with only a few with special rules)
- No Perception (either via elminating the skill or no Wis checks for that)

Instead of the Basic classes, one could also do the new Sidekick NPC classes for PCs.

These are great suggestions. I totally forgot about the Sidekick classes. They're great!

 

[Sosthenes]

Where minimalism and an OSR feeling would clash is modifying proficiencies to make the fighters stand out with weapons. No weapon proficiency for anyone but the fighter would be rather cruel to at least rogues but probably also clerics. So a halved proficiency (the opposite of the Rogue's Expertise) for them?

Attack cantrips or even all cantrips would probably have to go, too.

 

[Bunch]

These are great suggestions. I totally forgot about the Sidekick classes. They're great!

Me too Sidekick classes seem like a great way to simplify

 

[Brock Savage]

Assuming you were STUCK with 5e, but were able to adjust D&D 5e’s “dials” to make a more “Old school” or minimalist style, how would you do it?

I ran a 5e campaign for a few years "fiddling with the dials" but next time around I would probably use Into the Unknown as a base for a more streamlined and gritty Swords & Sorcery experience.

 

[Necrozius]

Ah nice, I forgot that I owned the PDFs of Into the Unknown. I will check those out again.

 

[Ben Adams]

You might also look at the Microlite20 version of 5e:

Microlite20 Fifth: Adamantine Edition (Printer Friendly) - The Forum @ Rules Light RPGs

This a trimmed-down, subminiature version of the Fifth Edition of the World’s Most Popular Role-playing game that has been designed to be quick and easy to ..

microlite20.org

 

[Necrozius]

You might also look at the Microlite20 version of 5e:

Microlite20 Fifth: Adamantine Edition (Printer Friendly) - The Forum @ Rules Light RPGs

This a trimmed-down, subminiature version of the Fifth Edition of the World’s Most Popular Role-playing game that has been designed to be quick and easy to ..

microlite20.org

This is really good (and free!). Thanks for recommending this.

 

[robertsconley]

Assuming you were STUCK with 5e, but were able to adjust D&D 5e’s “dials” to make a more “Old school” or minimalist style, how would you do it?

Use my Majestic Fantasy Basic Rules + Majestic Wilderlands instead. I found using 5e adventures to be interchangeable with my rules.

But good friends wanted to use 5e. I came up with the following that still a work in progress.

Drafts - Google Drive

drive.google.com

Unfortunately I did not simplify things Instead I tweaked all the class to fit how I view my setting. Much in the same way Swords & Wizardry is the foundation of my Majestic Fantasy Basic Rules yet everything is tweaked.

How about you? How would you do it?

If one wants a straight forward old school 5e, then I recommend the basic rules 'as is'. All the changes you mentioned in your post doesn't make the result old school it just makes it something else that may or may not be fun. My advice is to do what I did. Don't focus on mechanics like lineages, spell points, or ability check proficiency. Instead describe the setting you want to run a campaign in, that your players will find interesting. Then take or tweak the elements of D&D 5e that happen to fit. If it so happens that ability check proficiency, spell points, fits how you view your setting then great.

For example when I wrote the Majestic Wilderlands, I have been running campaigns with the setting with GURPS for over two decades. I wasn't going to port over a D&Dish version of GURPS Magic, however what I did do is think of how a day in the life of a spellcaster went in my campaign. Because spells in GURPS drain fatigue, the number of spells that get cast in combat is actually quite small. Perhaps not D&D low level small but still not as many as one would think. But between combat, spells often get used quite a bit with periods of rest to recover fatigue.

So without having to tweak dozens of spells descriptions or how a magic user class functioned in combat, I came up with the idea of rituals. Allowing caster cast from a spell book at a cost in ritual components. Which I handled by having spellcaster keeping track of a separate pool of funds that represented all the ritual components they bought. The rituals took ten minutes to cast. So you can do ritual all day but combat played out pretty much the same. And there was still a resource to manage ritual components.

Likewise for my 5e take, I generally stuck with what was in the SRD but continually tweaked things including "standard" items like Fighter-Champion. To better fit how I view the classes working in my setting. Not to say I didn't run into snag, the Warlock I view as problematic due to multiple subsystem at play like pacts, invocations and so on. The class in my opinion is a bit of a mess design wise and seems to be where the designers of 5e like to put the kewl powers. (sarcasm intended).

 

[robertsconley]

Specific comments

• Classes: Basic rules (Champion Fighter, Life Cleric, Thief Rogue and Evocation Wizard)

Sounds good.

• Races: Tasha's Custom Lineage but PCs have access to a racial feat during character creation only

Sounds good

• Feats: none, except during character creation (Custom lineage) and for the Fighter class

Sounds good.

• Skills: none, use the DMG variant of Ability check proficiency, one chosen from Class the other from Background, works with Rogue's Expertise)

This doesn't simplify anything. In my experience, players look at what they can do as their character through skills. If I want to be good at sneaking around I need to be good at Stealth. If I wanted to be good at picking locks, I need to be good at Lockpicking and so on. With abilities, they are going to be playing "guess which ability will apply". Plus certain abilities will get quickly overloaded like Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma. While others will get less used. In my opinion it better to have a well-thought out skill list than rely on ability checks.

And finally, D&D 5e skills are minimal, and pretty basic. There are two dozen skills or so. You either not proficient, proficient, or have expertise and... that it. All the ability checks used in the PHB and other books are pretty straight forward.

• Magic: spell point variant from the DMG (not very OSR, I know, I just hate typical Vancian D&D magic)

D&D 5e spell casting is not Vancian. You have a list of prepared spells and a number of spell slots to cast them with. You don't memorize spells for a slot. In addition many spells improve as you cast them with a higher level slot. Plus other classes have a different take on using the 5e spell that are also not Vancian.

In practice the spell slots in 5e function in a similar manner to spell points. Yes it is not as flexible but it not as complex either. Compared to GURPS which uses mana points and fatigue, I found players much more comfortable with picking slots in 5e than tallying mana. And they are more comfortable with 5e way than the traditional memorized spells that I use in my Majestic Fantasy RPG. Because they don't fret over their list of prepared spell as much as they do over memorizing specific spells for specific slots.

Bonus House Rules (I can't help myself):

• No dark vision/night vision except for monsters.

That fine, it the same way with my Majestic Fantasy RPG.

• Hit points: Fighter d10, Rogue d8, Cleric d6 and Wizard d4

I would not recommend this, you will greatly increase the difficulty of the game. And it is already difficult enough like in OD&D difficult with bounded accuracy.

• Weapons: d6/d8/d10 (simple, martial, martial two-handed, with only a few with special rules)

Not sure what you are gaining from this as the 5e weapons is pretty straightforward to begin with. Plus there is the problem with the balance bounded accuracy, pc damage, and monster damage.

• Long Rests: if taken outside of a friendly settlement, only regain 1/4 of total hit dice, rather than 1/2.

I would make a long rest take a week.

• Shields: provide passive half cover (extra +2 AC) against ranged attacks (weapon or spell). Taking Dodge action increases cover to three quarters cover (extra +4 AC). too complex, really, instead I'd let a shield bearing character spend their Reaction to get a cover bonus of +2 AC. Simpler that way.

Works for me.

• Helmets and Shields: destroy to cancel all damage from one source (e.g. weapon attack, trap damage etc.) edit: just another complication, removed

Not sure why this is complex. I use a shield sacrifice rules in my Majestic Fantasy rules. It is rarely invoked but when used the players sure glad to have it. I would say it cost a reaction to use a shield this way in 5e. Helms being destroyed mmmm maybe not sure about that one.

 

[Venger Satanis]

Everyone has their own, individual, and extremely specialized house-rules based on just exactly the way they'd do it. A lot of GMs and would-be RPG designers like reinventing the wheel. Having said that, I don't think my old-school 5e version is any better or worse than what other folks have done.

Crimson Dragon Slayer D20 is a FREE PDF on DriveThruRPG... and the layout looks amazing! Check it out for yourselves: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/303380/Crimson-Dragon-Slayer-D20-Revised

Enjoy,

VS

 

[Necrozius]

Great feedback thanks.

To clarify my OP, this thought experiment was "what would you do within the 5e system", not "which game would you play instead"?

Granted, there's a lot of great inspirational material to draw from those suggestions, thanks.

 

[AsenRG]

It is no secret to forum regulars that I’m now a Mythras convert. However for the sake of friends and family (and my kids’ friends) I am stuck with 5e for a while.

There is a charm to the somewhat simplified mechanics of OSR games. I would like to bring that “feel” to 5e without copious hacking and house rules.

Assuming you were STUCK with 5e, but were able to adjust D&D 5e’s “dials” to make a more “Old school” or minimalist style, how would you do it?

Here is my first draft of an approach using RAW or DMG options:

• Classes: Basic rules (Champion Fighter, Life Cleric, Thief Rogue and Evocation Wizard)
• Races: Tasha's Custom Lineage but PCs have access to a racial feat during character creation only
• Feats: none, except during character creation (Custom lineage) and for the Fighter class
• Skills: none, use the DMG variant of Ability check proficiency, one chosen from Class the other from Background, works with Rogue's Expertise)
• Magic: spell point variant from the DMG (not very OSR, I know, I just hate typical Vancian D&D magic)

Bonus House Rules (I can't help myself):

• No dark vision/night vision except for monsters.
• Hit points: Fighter d10, Rogue d8, Cleric d6 and Wizard d4
• Weapons: d6/d8/d10 (simple, martial, martial two-handed, with only a few with special rules)
• Long Rests: if taken outside of a friendly settlement, only regain 1/4 of total hit dice, rather than 1/2.
• Shields: provide passive half cover (extra +2 AC) against ranged attacks (weapon or spell). Taking Dodge action increases cover to three quarters cover (extra +4 AC). too complex, really, instead I'd let a shield bearing character spend their Reaction to get a cover bonus of +2 AC. Simpler that way.
• Helmets and Shields: destroy to cancel all damage from one source (e.g. weapon attack, trap damage etc.) edit: just another complication, removed

Seems workable, though I'm not a 5e expert by any means!

How about you? How would you do it?

Edit; I preferred some of Sosthenes ' ideas, made a quick edit...

I'd take the basic combat engine of Dragon Heresy, which is a 5e variant, and add the rules for travel of AIME, the magic system and Deed Die from DCC, shake them well, put them through a blender and see what happens.
Why? Well, the Dragon Heresy resolves to a degree my issues with Hit Points by making them less "mushy" in application (basically separating them into Defense Points and Meat Points, like Fantasy Craft does for 3e - but it also allows an especially good hit to bypass the defense). It also makes armour into DR and makes shields more important, again like FC does.
From AIME I take just the rests, and some of the approach to magic items.
DCC I already said.
Of course, there's only going to be one magic-using class, "Foul Sorcerer", and possibly 2-3 others, of which the Fighter would get a Deed Die.

Luckily, though, I'm NOT stuck with 5e, so I don't have to do all that work!

 

[robertsconley]

Great feedback thanks.

To clarify my OP, this thought experiment was "what would you do within the 5e system", not "which game would you play instead"?

Why I posted the link to my 5e folder. But I posted my Majestic Fantasy link because some of the ideas in it echo 5e's idea. Some predating the release of 5e, some incorporated after the release of 5e.

 

[Bilharzia]

I am not sure if this directly addresses what you are after, but there is this from RuneHammer:

Hardcore Mode – 5th Edition SRD

or the commercial book https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/303156/5e-HARDCORE-MODE

 

[Dyrnwyn]

I'm also not a 5E expert by any means, and probably don't have as much experience with it as others posting in this thread. Having said that, I will take a swing at this. For the purposes of this exercise, I won't bring in anything from outside 5E; just adjusting the "dials" as Necrozius put it.

I'd keep things like 4d6/drop lowest ability sore generation, short/long rests, hit dice settings, and such. I see the goal here as simplifying the game, rather than adjusting the power level, which I'm assuming stays at the heroic 5E standard.

I'd drop feats altogether since they feel rather bolted-on to begin with (I've yet to play a character with any).

I'd remove the Warlock and the Sorcerer as core classes since they're really just variations on the Wizard and don't fit into all settings anyway. I'd go with Necrozius' approach of using the Basic Rules classes as the main ones, with Barbarian, Druid, Ranger, Monk, and maybe Bard as options (again, sticking to just one version of each).

I'd remove skills and just add a bonus to a save where applicable (yes, this will be a GM's judgement call, but that comes with the territory in OSR-style gaming). I'd probably base the save on the character's Background. I don't think I would change Backgrounds except for removing skills, though they might require some tweaking as a result.

Finally, I'd heavily restrict the available races depending on the setting, and there again, only go with one version of each where multiple versions exist.

 

[Matthias]

Depends on what I can get away with.

Without changing any rules I think the main thing is just refusing to let players declare actions in terms of skill checks - if they say they roll Persuasion to get past the guards, let them describe what they’re doing instead, and then I’ll ask for a Persuasion check if it’s on the line.

GM-side toys like overloaded encounter dice, everything is bears, etc, are pretty easy to add too. Use encounter tables, not balanced encounter math.

Checklist XP is an actual rules change, but tbh I have to wonder how many 5e tables actually use the default of encounter XP. Borrow this one from Into the Depths, adapt the list to the setting or whatever.

Really the thing that requires the most rules changes and is most likely to inspire player revolt is PC options - you need to make PCs simpler to increase lethality, but complex PCs are what many players like. If I had buy-in I’d have all PCs made with Sidekick rules, but maybe that’s a bridge too far.

Really because of its philosophy all the fun stuff in OSR is procedures not rules, and as someone once observed nobody actually uses more than a dozen pages of RPG rules anyway, so you can get a long way just by the attitude with which you run things.

 

[Acmegamer]

Doing what I'm doing since I can't get the players to try GURPS, D100 systems. Run DCC Lankhmar with some minor tweaks. Minor for me because I'm at one page of mechanics tweaks or adjustments so far. I love Fritz Leiber's world of Nehwon so I was up for it. No Vancian magic system is a major plus to me with DCC. Once I have these players hooked on my gaming style as a GM...



And instead...
In the world of Nehwon.

 

[Voros]

I ran a 5e campaign for a few years "fiddling with the dials" but next time around I would probably use Into the Unknown as a base for a more streamlined and gritty Swords & Sorcery experience.

Was popping in to recommend this but got beat to the punch. The designer has done all the work for us who wanted a B/X 5e mashup.

 

[Sosthenes]

I can also recommend some of the articles from Idiomdrottning, especially Late Night Fighting and maybe "My DM screen insert". Some good tips about running the game in an OSR mode plus quick on-the-fly conversion.

 

[arjunstc]

I think you want Five Torches Deep...

As for myself, these are the house rules for Hit Points and death I use:

• Wind and Wound: Hit Points are divided into two halves: Wind, and Wound. Wind represents things like luck, stamina, and alertness, while Wound represents actual damage. When a PC takes damage, it is first deducted off Wind, and when Wind drops to zero, the damage is applied to Wound. Wind is restored by spending Hit Dice, while Wound is restored by healing, whether via magic or potion, and by natural Healing, which happens at the rate of the PC's level + CON modifier per day
• Slow Natural Healing: PCs do not regain hit points at the end of a long rest.
• PCs who are reduced to zero Hit Points do not make Death Saves, but will 'bleed out' in one minute unless he is healed or stabilised with a Medicine roll. Afterwards, he will roll on the Injury Table (see below).
• PCs who recover from being reduced to zero Hit Points may not act in the turn they recover.

Injury Table
Roll Effect
1 False hope. Character dies.
2 Lose 1 Strength. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
3 Lose 1 Dexterity. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
4 Lose 1 Constitution. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
5 Lose 1 Intelligence. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
6 Lose 1 Wisdom. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
7 Lose 1 Charisma. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
8 to 19 Gain 1 level of Exhaustion
20 Gain 1 Hit Dice of Hit Points. Gain 1 level of Exhaustion

 

[Mankcam]

Was popping in to recommend this but got beat to the punch. The designer has done all the work for us who wanted a B/X 5e mashup.

Yeah I think Into The Unknown is pretty spot-on, I wonder why it isn't all that well known.
I like how they were inspired by the look of the D&D B/X character sheet when they developed their own character sheet:

BTW, there appears to be a sale at DrivethruRPG, so this only costs about $25 USD at the moment to get the core books as a pdf+print bundle. That's five booklets, and you can additionally download the form-fillable character sheet for free anyway. Excellent value for anyone who wants an OSR-flavoured version of D&D 5E, and that's probably me sorted out for D&D.
Into The Unknown (pdf+print bundle)