D&D Beyond to delist two books next week.

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Bunch

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From the article here

I'm a bit surprised by this.

Basically a new book is superceding the rules bits from two old books. However the old books have lore content currently not found elsewhere.
I can see wanting to protect consumers from accidentally buying outdated rules. However not everyone likes the changes so why black hole them. I hope they'll add the lore into some free pdf or new product coming out.
I guess I find it a little strange to be putting put digital content for all the other versions of D&D but black whole two current books

Thoughts?
 

Bunch

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It would seem rather simple to keep them available and add a disclaimer to their listings pointing to the updated product. Sure, it may take a wee bit of more work but you will find some extra sales still.
That was my thought. Big red letters saying "Superceded by X" linked to X at the top of the description/title.
 

robertsconley

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Apparently, they will still be available for those who already bought them and they will have a notation that they are not the latest when used.
 

carpocratian

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I suspect the long range plan is to move as close to "rpg as a service" as they can. The more they can update things and supersede existing books, the more pressure some people will feel to stay subscribed to their service, either for fear of missing out on things or because whoever they game with insists on only using the newest "official" stuff. That won't work with all players, but it will with a certain number of them.
 

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Apparently, they will still be available for those who already bought them and they will have a notation that they are not the latest when used.
I should hope they still have them available. I mean I think if I purchase something it's mine but maybe the text of the deal allows them to pull the books.

It is an interesting separate subject. Let's say I buy a book on day X should I have to make a choice to either get that item frozen in time, allow it to always be updated to the latest errata or should you always be able to get the various versions to pick from. The last one seems extreme to me but I don't think it's totally unreasonable in a digital product to say you have to pick from the first two. It could become unwieldy for the D&D next platform the frozen in time model though
 

lgm

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Apparently, they will still be available for those who already bought them and they will have a notation that they are not the latest when used.

This makes it a bit ridiculous. They put the work in to make a notation and will still delist. I guess the rules are now more like software? Yet I know people who still use 3.0 D&D over 3.5 and PF.
 

robertsconley

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This makes it a bit ridiculous. They put the work in to make a notation and will still delist. I guess the rules are now more like software? Yet I know people who still use 3.0 D&D over 3.5 and PF.
I concur. Here are the relevant bits of information.

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1652375622142.png
 

robertsconley

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I suspect the long range plan is to move as close to "rpg as a service" as they can. The more they can update things and supersede existing books, the more pressure some people will feel to stay subscribed to their service, either for fear of missing out on things or because whoever they game with insists on only using the newest "official" stuff. That won't work with all players, but it will with a certain number of them.
They can try. And if they pack enough utility may even carve out a niche. However, the existence of the SRDs and the ease of sharing and publishing material through digital tech means that the traditional way of doing things is not going away either. Instead it is just it going to be a kaleidoscope of different options.

As pervasive digital tech is it far from 100% especially when it comes to using any of what on-line for D&D. So books are not going away anytime soon.
 

Endless Flight

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Why take the choice of purchase out of the customers hands? It’s not like they have to keep printing the books. Just put a disclaimer up that the stats in the book have been errata’d in so-and-so book and keep selling it!
 

David Johansen

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I think the removal of Volo's name is pretty telling. Really at the rate these changes are made, the decision's probably a year old.
 

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I own everything on DnD Beyond and I can see NOT selling Mordenkainen's after the new release but keeping it in the libraries of those who already own it. It is a stupid move.
 

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I own everything on DnD Beyond and I can see NOT selling Mordenkainen's after the new release but keeping it in the libraries of those who already own it. It is a stupid move.

It will still be in the libraries of those who already own it.

Like nearly all drama associated with 5e this seems like a mtn over a molehill.
 

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The possibility of having books 'removed' from my library after I've purchased them is why DDB isn't going to be getting any of my money any time soon. Call me old fashioned.
Well they aren't doing that and I don't see them ever doing it. At most I see them discontinuing sales. If they blackholed the products entirely I'd see a lawsuit.
 

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It will still be in the libraries of those who already own it.

Like nearly all drama associated with 5e this seems like a mtn over a molehill.
I don't think it's a mountain. It's more like seeing a molehill in your lawn and saying "I have a mole. That's annoying".
 

Ladybird

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Oh that's right, Volo's was insensitive...colectability here I come!
I'm all for getting rid of lazy "they are bad because they are bad" race design, but IMO Volo's was fairly good on that regard, presenting weird (But internally consistent) cultures that could be explored and interacted with. I thought it was a fairly good "deep dive" book.

I think the D&D division doesn't fundamentally understand the complaints people are making, and are over-cautious; combined with the game trying to be both a generic toolkit and a set of curated experiences, it leads to iffy decisions like this.

I own everything on DnD Beyond and I can see NOT selling Mordenkainen's after the new release but keeping it in the libraries of those who already own it. It is a stupid move.
They literally say that's what they're doing. Still accessible if you own it, but no new sales.
 

Fenris-77

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Well they aren't doing that and I don't see them ever doing it. At most I see them discontinuing sales. If they blackholed the products entirely I'd see a lawsuit.
I know they aren't, but they could, and I'm neither a trusting soul nor a consumer who needs online support for 5E. So fiddlesticks to them I say.
 

Fenris-77

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The only thing Wizards ever did to get my goat was remove the original (and superior) 2E stuff from DTRPG and replace it with that 1995 garbage. I have the entries still my library and haven’t been able to download them for years.
This is one place where I'm quite happy to explore, ahem, other options.
 

Voros

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I know they aren't, but they could, and I'm neither a trusting soul nor a consumer who needs online support for 5E. So fiddlesticks to them I say.

Practically none of the iOS games I've purchased over the years were still functioning due to the constant stream of iOS updates by the time I dumped my iPhone. In fact I dumped my iPhone and switched to Android because my phone, which I had for a 2 years, completely stopped working due to an update and when I brought it in for them to look at they said I should just buy a new iPhone and I was like 'fuck this shit.'

The (formerly?) largely iOS designers at Simogo said they had to give up trying to maintain their games on iOS as they were too small a team to do so and still have time to produce new games. Thankfully most of their excellent games are now up on Steam (Year Walk gets my highest recommendation, Device 6 is also really good).

All these services, from Google, to Apple, FB, etc. do everything in their power to ensure you can't step outside their walled garden. I get it is mildly convienent but I don't understand why so many passively accept it.
 

Bunch

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Practically none of the iOS games I've purchased over the years were still functioning due to the constant stream of iOS updates by the time I dumped my iPhone. In fact I dumped my iPhone and switched to Android because my phone, which I had for a 2 years, completely stopped working due to an update and when I brought it in for them to look at they said I should just buy a new iPhone and I was like 'fuck this shit.'

The (formerly?) largely iOS designers at Simogo said they had to give up trying to maintain their games on iOS as they were too small a team to do so and still have time to produce new games. Thankfully most of their excellent games are now up on Steam (Year Walk gets my highest recommendation, Device 6 is also really good).

All these services, from Google, to Apple, FB, etc. do everything in their power to ensure you can't step outside their walled garden. I get it is mildly convienent but I don't understand why so many passively accept it.
I do not like the whole phone ecosystem. It's very hard on everyone. So many devices in so many combinations of OS and various memory,CPU states. Then add any manufacturer processes running in the background and whatever else the customer has running. Just a nightmare of issues.
 

VisionStorm

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I get it is mildly convienent but I don't understand why so many passively accept it.

Laziness, being used to corporations always getting their way and lack of understanding of the larger implications of this. They (we) are the reason these tech companies get away with this stuff and "pay in perpetuity" software-as-service and similar business models and practices have become so ubiquitous. Soon we will own nothing.
 

Bunch

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I dunno sometimes I think people take the own nothing too far. I mean I own a few VHS tapes and hell if I can play them at this point. Something like DTRPG I own the PDFs and most I have downloaded to a drive. But now I also have to manage that drive to make sure I still have a readable version when I want it.

I own a bunch of old video game a good number of which I rebuy if I want to play them now because it's a better use of my money than tracking down all the crap I have to do to get to play them on a modern system.

Few things are a durable as a good book but even those don't last forever. I get I could hope we find a publisher who will use clay tablets because their still reading Sumerian gossip letter written in that stuff.
 

Cross Planes

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It will still be in the libraries of those who already own it.

Like nearly all drama associated with 5e this seems like a mtn over a molehill.
As I understood it the stat blocks would be updated but the fluff would still be there. My bad if I misunderstood it.
 

Cross Planes

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I'm all for getting rid of lazy "they are bad because they are bad" race design, but IMO Volo's was fairly good on that regard, presenting weird (But internally consistent) cultures that could be explored and interacted with. I thought it was a fairly good "deep dive" book.

I think the D&D division doesn't fundamentally understand the complaints people are making, and are over-cautious; combined with the game trying to be both a generic toolkit and a set of curated experiences, it leads to iffy decisions like this.


They literally say that's what they're doing. Still accessible if you own it, but no new sales.
My apologies, I misunderstood and thought the stat-blocks were being overwritten.
 

rumble

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Welp, I'm probably in the minority, but I don't care for the entire as-a-service movement in tech. Especially ported to non-essential like gaming.

It's gotta scale, they say. Ease of use, they say. Whatever.
A PDF works just as well. I don't have to worry about backbones going down. By the time you tune a flawed rule, I've already house ruled it.

I mean, you sold it to me saying I could change whatever I wanted to my taste, right?

What it's really about is containing and controlling your user base. Three bucks a month isn't gonna kill me, but it is annoying.
 

Bunch

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As I understood it the stat blocks would be updated but the fluff would still be there. My bad if I misunderstood it.
I think some fluff is coming along but as I understand it a bunch is going away since it's essentially two books pushed into one.
 

arjunstc

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I have been looking forward to reading conspiracy theories about the delisting ever since I read the news. So far you guys have been disappointing
 

Tommy Brownell

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They literally say that's what they're doing. Still accessible if you own it, but no new sales.
I thought I'd heard they'd already forced the errata on the digital versions - including Beyond - meaning they gutted the lore sections like it or not?

Which, in that case, means that keeping it for sale online would be worthless. If you're just getting crunch, might as well get up to date crunch.
 

Tommy Brownell

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I have been looking forward to reading conspiracy theories about the delisting ever since I read the news. So far you guys have been disappointing
It's not a conspiracy. WotC made it clear that a lot of the lore in those two books were problematic in their view, so they released errata that they pushed digitally (unless I am horribly mistake about the "pushed digitally" part) and released a print book to replace those two books.

All in the effort to make 5e as fluffy and harmless and homogeneous and boring as fuck as possible.
 

Mankcam

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One day WotC may not market all this rpg content as books.
It could easily end up being an online rpg rules subscription service that has regular updates, some of which are complimentary core rules updates, and other of which will be discreet expansion content that you'll have to keep paying for.

D&D Beyond is almost already doing all this now, but it's currently more of an alternative to physical books rather than a complete replacement of them, but you can see where it's possibly heading.

Actually it all seems quite reasonable, no different to what is currently happening with the declining sales of of dvds when it comes to the impact of online gaming and cinema streaming services.

Yet as 'user-friendly' as it is, somehow for me it all feels quite souless when compared to having a tangible well-loved collection of books.

1652487002890.png 1652487185172.png

These days may be almost here, and if so I'm not sure I want to be part of it :sad:
 
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Shipyard Locked

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It's really hard to get into conspiracy theories without breaking rule i.

Oh, it's one of those situations. No wonder David Johansen David Johansen was being cryptic. Here I was imagining that Volo was being removed because Forgotten Realms was falling out of favor, or he was tied up in intellectual property disputes, or something.
 
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