Dammit, Viktyr's Being a Boomer About D&D 5e

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2) A bag of magical components of X value with each spell with material components having Y cost that has to be expended out of that bag. It easy to track and gives magic shops a purpose beyond just selling magic items.
IMO it's a much better idea of a 'magic shop' than what I usually see. It kind of irritates me when even the smallest villages seems to have some gnome selling high-powered whatsits... whereas it's easier to swallow that they have herbs and whatnots for spell components (or whatever other reason a person might want a jar of spiders for).

I might be a jerk, in our regular local game, for insisting on using components for my sorcerer... telling the group I can't X unless I find the bits needed. The GM has pointed out gewgaws I could get to alleviate the need, but I just prefer the flavor of having to have an odd collection of consumables, and always be looking for more.
 
Just to add a final note about initiative. I've taken a couple of martial arts, done a little fencing, etc. I've never heard an instructor point out the need to "win the initiative." The closest advice I've heard for that is from the old Folsom prison knife fighting manual i.e. strike first and often. But that's more about attacking with surprise, not interrupting another guy's attack.

Whenever I've seen two fighters square off, there was never a race to see who would attack first. They always circle and prod and look for openings. And lest you think this is just because I'm talking about sporting events, watch some nature documentaries and look at how animals fight. When life is on the line, people tend not to charge in chin-first.

On the other hand, if someone is attacking out of a murderous rage and the other person is just defending themselves, the assailant will almost always get the first attack unless the defender has incredible presence of mind.

My point is, real-life "initiative" is super-complicated and situational. More and more, I am adjudicating initiative except for situations where it is very unclear. The most important non-circumstantial factors, to me, seem to be reach and skill. And reach becomes less of a factor when defenders are equipped with shields or heavily armored. Watch some spear-vs.-sword HEMA demonstrations on youtube and you'll see what I mean.
 
Initiative in D&D is kind of nonsense. First of all, actions are rarely so discreet. Second of all, there's a case to be made for almost any attribute being a modifier. Speed doesn't always have a lot to do with it. If you're fighting a lumbering stone golem that doesn't care whether it is struck in combat, it's often going to "win initiative" in real life, because its opponent is trying desperately to avoid being crushed.

Speed is, in my mind, a small part of it. Quick-thinking and aggressiveness are, in my mind, a lot more important. Skill is also critically important - if you're waiting for an opening that never comes, that's going to affect your initiative. A fighter with a good sense of distance and excellent timing doesn't need to be fast at all.
As someone who took boxing and a little martial arts, aggressiveness and quick-thinking mean nothing if you can't make your body react and move appropriately or quickly.

Most fights begin, even when both sides expect believe it or not, with surprise. And being faster means you get to control the fight, which you want to end as FAST as possible. The only time reaction time doesn't matter as much (But still does), is either when combat is already engaged or in an arena style fight, like an MMA ring. But you still need to be fast and accurate.

But you know what? I don't honestly care about how 'plausible' the initiative system is because it's all based off Hollywoodisms from the 1930s-40s. And in a Hollywood fight, it's staged so both sides know which is going to act first and where the blows will go and so on, so nothing other than a basic die roll matters.

Everything we do to change it is to fit OUR beliefs in how a fight or battle goes.
 
The only time reaction time doesn't matter as much (But still does), is either when combat is already engaged or in an arena style fight, like an MMA ring. But you still need to be fast and accurate.
We could go back and forth all day and not get anywhere, because neither of us fights for a living. The only thing I'll point out here is that you're doing the old DEX conflation. Speed, accuracy and reaction time are all distinct things. I imagine it seems to be a pretty important quality when you lump them all together.
 
OK, so as a caveat, I claim to have no special experience or knowledge of fighting beyond what I've read in books (and most of that is military unit level stuff), but I did spend a good 8 years studying martial arts and participated in numerous tournaments, and this was my personal experience:


I was not fast. I did not try to get the first strike. I did not attempt to anticipate my opponent's actions.

I would take a few hits, ignore them, close in, and then I would get ahold of my opponent and hit them without stopping until the instructor intervened. I ignored everything except turning some part of my opponent's body from something hard into something liquid.

It was brutal, messy, and inelegant.

And exactly NOT what I want from RPG combat. In an RPG I want romanticized, cinematic combat - opponents trading blows and defending, with the occasional hit getting through, until finally a deciding blow is cast.

I don't care if it's realistic, or that it bears no resemblance to my experience fighting IRL. It's "satisfying" and "feels right" and that's the reality I prefer from my fantasy.
 
I think that spell components would be more interesting if they weren’t requirements but buffs. Like, they empower your spells in different ways the more rare or expensive that they are.

Also extra time and ritual. Small effects like re-roll 1s and 2s, boost spell save DC by half your prof. bonus, or even keep a spell slot if you roll high enough. Stuff like that.
 
I think my favorite fight might be Neo vs Agent Smith in the first Matrix movie. I also get a thrill out of the fight in the sequel where Neo is fighting all the Merovingian's roughs on that big staircase.
My pick for cinematic fisticuffs has to be Drunken Master 2 or The Raid 2.
 
This is an interesting discussion on Initiative with each perspective offering lots of food for thought. A guy could be the quickest dude in the world but it matters little if his mind-body isn't wired for combat (situational awareness, courage, aggressiveness, training, composure under stress, et cetera); on the other hand, it is probably safe to assume that someone with the word FIGHTER in their job description has those attributes in spades. In which case it might be prudent to give Fighters and maybe their subclasses (ranger, paladin) a little buff to initiative? For 5e I would say Fighters add their proficiency bonus to initiative. Thoughts?
 
In which case it might be prudent to give Fighters and maybe their subclasses (ranger, paladin) a little buff to initiative? For 5e I would say Fighters add their proficiency bonus to initiative. Thoughts?
You're talking robertsconley robertsconley's language! Frankly, I do the same thing for all my heartbreakers. It's always seemed really weird the way most OSR games don't include the concept of level.
 
Best kick to the face in a movie is definitely this...

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You're talking robertsconley robertsconley's language! Frankly, I do the same thing for all my heartbreakers. It's always seemed really weird the way most OSR games don't include the concept of level.
Broken record again, but the way 1E AD&D gives fighters with multiple attack routines (i.e. 3/2 attacks at level 7-12 and 2/1 at level 13+; +1/2 attack for specialists) automatic first strike in melee against less-skilled opponents seems (to me) to capture this. Also, a reminder (even though it's always ignored in actual play) that the minute-long combat round is supposed to represent a whole series of feints, maneuvers, parries, ripostes, etc. with the initiative roll only determining which side is the first to get a "telling" blow that has a chance of actually killing (or at higher levels, wounding) the opponent. So the poorly-trained orc may come in swinging wildly, but the more skilled 7th level fighter (or lower level specialist) is able to easily parry or dodge that (i.e. it doesn't count as an "attack") and then skewer the orc with a telling blow while he's recovering his balance. It's when people forget all this and think of one roll = one swing, and especially when they get stuck in a mental rut and stop thinking about tactics and are content to just stand there and trade d20 rolls back and forth that D&D combat becomes a boring and dumb slog. But it doesn't always have to be that way, really!
 
For 5e I would say Fighters add their proficiency bonus to initiative. Thoughts?
In EABA 2nd Edition initiative is a choice - you decide on a penalty to your actions in a desire to go first. So a highly skilled opponent can choose to go first when facing a lesser opponent, but it’s more of a toss-up between evenly matched combatants.

EABA is a pretty interesting system, just a shame there aren’t more worked examples.
 
Broken record again, but the way 1E AD&D gives fighters with multiple attack routines (i.e. 3/2 attacks at level 7-12 and 2/1 at level 13+; +1/2 attack for specialists) automatic first strike in melee against less-skilled opponents seems (to me) to capture this
This mechanic factors it in but not as something particularly important.
Also, a reminder (even though it's always ignored in actual play) that the minute-long combat round is supposed to represent a whole series of feints, maneuvers, parries, ripostes, etc. with the initiative roll only determining which side is the first to get a "telling" blow that has a chance of actually killing (or at higher levels, wounding) the opponent.
Yeah, but not only do I find this to be unrealistic but flat out unmanageable. There’s so much non-combative stuff that you could do in a minute that it becomes a nightmare to sync it all up. It’s just way too long for me in every way.
 
I don't know 5th edition D&D from Adam, but this "Viktyr" mentioned in the thread title has me racking my brain to remember what Kirby comic he's from...was it Forever People or New Gods? Or one his later Pacific Comics creations? Anyone?
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This mechanic factors it in but not as something particularly important.

Yeah, but not only do I find this to be unrealistic but flat out unmanageable. There’s so much non-combative stuff that you could do in a minute that it becomes a nightmare to sync it all up. It’s just way too long for me in every way.
It also breaks down when charges and ammo are involved. The flurry of blows for a minute doesn't hold up with anything involving discrete expenditures. It works for chainmail where abstracting a mass melee but not at the individual level.
 
When it comes to initiative, it pays to remember that RPGs are trying to abstract three different things in one stat. Namely, the three kinds of initiative are I Go First, We Go At The Same Time, and He Goes First (which doesn't mean I'm "passive", though)...:smile:
Of course, TRoS is doing it best. But that can be said for many more parts of the combat system, too:wink:.
 
K I just realized that the 5e Bard's Jack of all Trades class feature... actually kind of sucks.

Hear me out. So starting at level 2, you get to add half of your Proficiency bonus (rounded DOWN) to any ability check where you don't usually get your proficiency bonus.

That SEEMS pretty nifty right? Especially because it also adds a bonus to Initiative checks! Wow that's great!

WRONG. Since it is HALF your Proficiency bonus ROUNDED DOWN, that means that you only get a bonus of +1 to these skills until level NINE. That's a long god-damn time to wait for an upgrade to a +2 bonus.

See, Bard's already have a lot of skill proficiencies. Odds are that the player will have picked the skills that they will most likely want to use the most frequently anyway. A little +5% boost to all those other skills doesn't really feel like much. You could get more from the Guidance Cantrip.

CLARIFICATION: in 5e, there is no "penalty" to making an Ability check for something you don't have Proficiency in. So this "Jack of all trades" thing was a lot more useful in earlier editions when you couldn't really roll on those things without the skill.

Tool Proficiencies don't count. So that's the only instance where this Bard power would REALLY shine. But it doesn't Blech

Am I missing something? This seems really, really weak...
 
Necrozius Necrozius The best things about Jack of All Trades are actually ability checks that you CAN'T gain your proficiency bonus to by normal means. Things like Counterspell checks. Remember, it isn't any skill check it is any ability check.
 
Necrozius Necrozius The best things about Jack of All Trades are actually ability checks that you CAN'T gain your proficiency bonus to otherwise. Things like Counterspell checks. Remember, it isn't any skill check it is any ability check.
Correct, but I'm confused about that as well. There are several instances where the target of a special maneuver or spell must make an Ability CHECK rather than a Saving throw. I mean, that's odd, isn't it? Strength saving throws are rare enough as it is.

Makes me wonder why they didn't just keep the Saving Throw mechanics from 4e if Strength, Constitution and Intelligence saves are so useless...
 
Okay, I found this thread which talked about actual mathematics and probability, explaining WHY a +1 bonus in 5e is actually a bigger deal than it seems.

Some interesting stuff in there. I warily retract my previous post but will keep it there in case it actually does matter.
 
I never said speed wasn't important. I just don't think it's as important to initiative as most people think. There are lots of other factors that people never consider, and I don't think sheer velocity is the most important component of initiative.

Imagine a flyweight against the heavyweight. The lighter guy generally has a shorter reach, but only by a couple of inches. But still, I think he's going to be counter-punching and trying to get inside i.e. punching second in most exchanges i.e. losing initiative. Just a couple inches and a hundred pounds will overcome a world of speed advantages when it comes to who punches first in an exchange.
Yes. This is why I have many issues with a system when the character with a dagger gets an initiative advantage over the one with the spear.
 
Correct, but I'm confused about that as well. There are several instances where the target of a special maneuver or spell must make an Ability CHECK rather than a Saving throw. I mean, that's odd, isn't it? Strength saving throws are rare enough as it is.

Makes me wonder why they didn't just keep the Saving Throw mechanics from 4e if Strength, Constitution and Intelligence saves are so useless...
I think there is certain inconsistency in application, probably as the designers were still getting use to the distinctions themselves.

Take this example.

Wrathful Smite
Evocation

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Bonus Action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute



The next time you hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell’s duration, your attack deals an extra 1d6 psychic damage.
Additionally, if the target is a creature, it must make a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you until the spell ends. As an action, the creature can make a Wisdom check against your spell save DC to steel its resolve and end this spell.

It seems pretty clear that this should be a save. (One for consistency, the second due to the fact that fear effects give disadvantage on ability checks but not saving throws, and third, unlike with something like a grapple, there is no skill that could plausibly give proficiency in this case).

I tend to go with the philosophy that if I think something should be a save then it is save.
 
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IMO it's a much better idea of a 'magic shop' than what I usually see. It kind of irritates me when even the smallest villages seems to have some gnome selling high-powered whatsits... whereas it's easier to swallow that they have herbs and whatnots for spell components (or whatever other reason a person might want a jar of spiders for).

I might be a jerk, in our regular local game, for insisting on using components for my sorcerer... telling the group I can't X unless I find the bits needed. The GM has pointed out gewgaws I could get to alleviate the need, but I just prefer the flavor of having to have an odd collection of consumables, and always be looking for more.

I like this too, because again it makes wizards odd and mysterious. Like the party is hustling along trying to get to town before nightfall and all of a sudden the wizard is off in a field picking plants because he has found a little crop of a hard to find spell component growing wild. Freaking wizards... :hehe:


I can't parse your acronym and now I'm super-curious.

The Riddle of Steel, an RPG from around 2000 with a heavy emphasis on modeling combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Riddle_of_Steel

Out of print but it has a successor in Blade of the Iron Throne. TRoS is a pretty interesting looking game, I collected most of it when it was being published, but like many such games it is very hard to find players. I've not followed Blade of the Iron Throne.
 
I like this too, because again it makes wizards odd and mysterious. Like the party is hustling along trying to get to town before nightfall and all of a sudden the wizard is off in a field picking plants because he has found a little crop of a hard to find spell component growing wild. Freaking wizards... :hehe:




The Riddle of Steel, an RPG from around 2000 with a heavy emphasis on modeling combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Riddle_of_Steel

Out of print but it has a successor in Blade of the Iron Throne. TRoS is a pretty interesting looking game, I collected most of it when it was being published, but like many such games it is very hard to find players. I've not followed Blade of the Iron Throne.
There's actually 3 successors to date. There's also Sword and Scoundrel and Song of Swords.

My impression of all of them is that they go the wrong way (for me) and try to make the game even more realistic by making it more complex. What I would want in a Riddle of Steel clone is to go the other. Keep the dice pool interactions and basic combat mechanics, but sacrificing some of the insistence on realism for faster and easier play.
 
Huh. I only just saw the initiative bits--I only managed to get to brown belt in one art (one stripe away from black, and I'll be honest, I know enough to teach someone, but I'm also smart enough that I can say, I don't know anything special.) I began learning another and had a single "belt" upgrade in it.

That being said, I'm a big slowish guy, and almost never struck first, I almost always waited and watched for opportunity.
I am quick enough to throw two rapid roundhouse kicks back to back on an opponent which they never expected. But I've on more than one occasion, used my waiting to defend, move, then counter-attack.

With the exception of the best teachers in my class (black belts.) I could outlast much younger people, because I didn't waste energy, until I had timed a solid, lasting, hit. Some kid (18 or so), kept trying Muey Thai jump kicks, and I just slide around him. Being in the air looks cool, but wastes so much energy fighting gravity, plus once in the air, you cant change direction. All I did was slide and circle and land blows while he was recovering--there were plenty of other kids who made the same kind of mistakes--wasting energy.

Once someone asked the two high-level Aikijitsu teachers what a fight between two people of their rank looked like, so they demonstrated, both in starting positions, and stayed that way. Because it is a defense-focused art these days. Making the first move is a big mistake.

It always makes me think of MSH initiative where you roll the dice, then declare from lowest (loser of initiative) to higher--allowing the higher initiative person to take action FIRST, but with some foreknowledge of how things are going to go. Sure the losers can change their actions but at a penalty.
 
It always makes me think of MSH initiative where you roll the dice, then declare from lowest (loser of initiative) to higher--allowing the higher initiative person to take action FIRST, but with some foreknowledge of how things are going to go. Sure the losers can change their actions but at a penalty.

Metahumans Rising did something similar. Everyone rolls, then the lowest Initiative acts first. Characters with better Initiatives act later, but can try to interrupt which triggers a roll off to see who's action goes first. This was to keep the feel of comics, where you see the bad guy try to do something only to have the hero stop them in the nick of time. Mechanically this also helps prevent the situation of declaring an action then that action being irrelevant by the time it's your turn.
 
There's actually 3 successors to date. There's also Sword and Scoundrel and Song of Swords.

My impression of all of them is that they go the wrong way (for me) and try to make the game even more realistic by making it more complex. What I would want in a Riddle of Steel clone is to go the other. Keep the dice pool interactions and basic combat mechanics, but sacrificing some of the insistence on realism for faster and easier play.

First I've heard of the other two, but I didn't follow beyond TRoS. I thought it was a neat concept but wasn't interested enough to follow another similar game that I would probably never find players for. It seemed to suffer from the same issue as Phoenix Command, very well thought out but too into the weeds for most people.
Several years ago I was in a Twilight 2000 campaign, that used a modified system borrowing from Phoenix Command, but keeping the complexity at about the same place as T2000 V2. It worked very well, still played pretty fast but was more tacti-cool than plain T2000. :smile:
 
I don't think boxing translates exactly to fantasy skirmish combat. I took fencing in college and speed is really important there too but both of these are sports combat under really controlled conditions.

For sure, there is also I imagine a big difference between the purely physical combat of boxing and fighting with weapons. Counter-punching is also a big part of boxing but in weapon-based combat I would think one would want to minimize taking any blows.
 
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For the record, I have gotten in a couple of brawls. And got my ass beat. But waiting isn't always the best option.

Also, the issue I had with MSH's system is that in a fight, you have time to react to a situation, so you can adjust your tactics. Good fighters can do that incredibly quickly. So locking players into a set pattern not only punishes the faster fighters, it's also implausible to some of us.
 
Also, the issue I had with MSH's system is that in a fight, you have time to react to a situation, so you can adjust your tactics. Good fighters can do that incredibly quickly. So locking players into a set pattern not only punishes the faster fighters, it's also implausible to some of us.

In MSH, you CAN adjust your tactics, after Initiative is rolled.
 
It always makes me think of MSH initiative where you roll the dice, then declare from lowest (loser of initiative) to higher--allowing the higher initiative person to take action FIRST, but with some foreknowledge of how things are going to go. Sure the losers can change their actions but at a penalty.


Hmm, that's actually not how Initiative works in MSH, but, interestingly, it IS how Initiative works in Phaserip...opponents declare intentions from lowest to highest Intuition, and then resolve actions from highest to lowest Intuition (at least, it's one way - I actually provide different methods based on the circumstances/type of combat).

In MSH, players declare actions, the GM decides what the villains are doing (but does not tell the players), and then the GM and one player rolls for Initiative, and one side performs all their actions before the other side. After the die is rolled, anyone from the losing side can change their actions in response for a -1CS penalty.
 
Hmm, that's actually not how Initiative works in MSH, but, interestingly, it IS how Initiative works in Phaserip...opponents declare intentions from lowest to highest Intuition, and then resolve actions from highest to lowest Intuition (at least, it's one way - I actually provide different methods based on the circumstances/type of combat).

In MSH, players declare actions, the GM decides what the villains are doing (but does not tell the players), and then the GM and one player rolls for Initiative, and one side performs all their actions before the other side. After the die is rolled, anyone from the losing side can change their actions in response for a -1CS penalty.
I could have sworn that was the process, this is the actual text.


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