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Apparition

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Yeah, I can't see AT&T selling off DC Comics to Marvel. Now, AT&T shuttering the DC Comics publishing side and just mining the IP for television shows, movies, and toys, that I can easily see.
 

Endless Flight

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I don’t think they would shutter it. I just think they would go completely digital with the comics and forgo the printing costs. The fanboys will still go online to comiXology to get their fix and make the adjustment.
 

Stevethulhu

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I'd say it depends if they're losing money or at least how much profit they're making. Keeping DC going for sentimental reasons isn't good business. And Waener have shown some absolutely appalling judgement on how to spend hundreds of millions at a time.

If DC's time has come, let them go into the night and pillage the IP for all you can get seems like a logical choice.
 

Endless Flight

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If they don’t do it in-house, the rights will be farmed our like t-shirts, pajamas, coloring books and toys. Comic books will never go away.
 

Chris Brady

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Warner Bros selling off that valuable of an IP doesn't seem as likely as their publishing budget just getting slashed to hell.

But I will say the thought of Disney acquiring that much more of my childhood sends a chill down my spine
They won't sell it off, they'll license it out, like Disney tried to do with Spider-Man to IDW.
Yeah, I can't see AT&T selling off DC Comics to Marvel. Now, AT&T shuttering the DC Comics publishing side and just mining the IP for television shows, movies, and toys, that I can easily see.
I'd say it depends if they're losing money or at least how much profit they're making. Keeping DC going for sentimental reasons isn't good business. And Waener have shown some absolutely appalling judgement on how to spend hundreds of millions at a time.

If DC's time has come, let them go into the night and pillage the IP for all you can get seems like a logical choice.
DC properties have not been making much money in almost all mediums. The CW shows have plateaued, the movies have more or less flopped except for three (Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad), and comics as a medium are working on their fourth year of financial being down, it's not looking good.
If they don’t do it in-house, the rights will be farmed our like t-shirts, pajamas, coloring books and toys. Comic books will never go away.
Yeah, it'll just shift to boutique productions, like Kickstarters and Idiegogos, with singular imprints. But as a profitable big business, no, the Smartphone killed them. How can you compete against 'free' video games in the palm of the hand? Or youtube videos?
 

Endless Flight

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Will we get 2D20 Disney RPGs?

giphy.gif
 

JRT

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That article has no source beyond, "people are gossiping about the possibility".

Cosmic Book News, like We Got This Covered, is one of the least reputable sites covering the genre stuff out there.

Of course, this is in an era where sites that have news about comics dropped really interesting reporting and turned into mostly shallow articles and "listicles". I think of what happened to Comic Book Resources when it got bought out by the gang who created ScreenRant and rebranded itself CBR.
 

JRT

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As for the rumor--based on the fact that Disney has been keeping things like adaptations of Frozen, the Duck books, etc, away from the Marvel brand, and the fact that they've been experimenting with moving some superheroes to other publishers, there's really no way they see Marvel as a publisher of other people's comics.

And as others said, Warner Bros wouldn't want to sell off the super heroes.

DC properties have not been making much money in almost all mediums. The CW shows have plateaued, the movies have more or less flopped except for three (Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Suicide Squad), and comics as a medium are working on their fourth year of financial being down, it's not looking good.

I wouldn't judge it as that Grim. DC film and TV properties seem to be doing well financially. I'm not sure you can call Shazam or even Justice League a "flop". They haven't been as successful as Marvel but they are successful. Comics however are another matter.

If they don’t do it in-house, the rights will be farmed our like t-shirts, pajamas, coloring books and toys. Comic books will never go away.

Unless comics themselves aren't as big as other things. There is a cost vs. profit factor that has to be taken into account. I think the comics as sequential art will survive, but the kids like the stuff from Scholastic that has nothing to do with the super hero genre. The kids aren't into the old floppy comics that only survive in comics shops for the aging audience--they are likely to first encounter them as toys and cartoons. And to be blunt, DC and Marvel have such a huge back catalog that they'd only need to start reprinting classics in trades and not solicit new stories.
 

JRT

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But I will say the thought of Disney acquiring that much more of my childhood sends a chill down my spine

Honestly, Disney handles their properties a lot better than Warner Bros, especially when WB acquires another company. I think of what happened to the Hanna Barbara catalog--out of all those great characters that were popular, they've been put on ice and the only one they care about was Scooby-Doo. The worst is when they decide to use them in adult-oriented parodies--I find some of the stuff they did on Adult Swim distasteful.

But even WB's own original library gets less respect--the failure of Looney Tunes: Back in Action (a really GOOD movie that just bombed at the box office) caused them to pull most of the cartoons and they were kept on ice for several years until recently.
 

Chris Brady

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Honestly, Disney handles their properties a lot better than Warner Bros, especially when WB acquires another company. I think of what happened to the Hanna Barbara catalog--out of all those great characters that were popular, they've been put on ice and the only one they care about was Scooby-Doo. The worst is when they decide to use them in adult-oriented parodies--I find some of the stuff they did on Adult Swim distasteful.

But even WB's own original library gets less respect--the failure of Looney Tunes: Back in Action (a really GOOD movie that just bombed at the box office) caused them to pull most of the cartoons and they were kept on ice for several years until recently.
I don't know about that, Star Wars and it's declining income is not looking so good for Disney...
 

TristramEvans

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The worst is when they decide to use them in adult-oriented parodies--I find some of the stuff they did on Adult Swim distasteful.

hm, you and I are of oppositre tastes there - I find those early years of Adult Swim some of the best TV experiences of my life.
 

opaopajr

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It's also a cruddy ROI compared to any real investment strategy. If someone wants to make money, there are thousands of better ways than buying comic books, sealing them up and locking them away for 30 years, and crossing your fingers in hopes that maybe some of your hoard will be worth more than cover price someday.

My retirement isn’t in 401k accounts, it’s in long boxes stuffed in the storage closet in my basement! I’m sure those pre-bagged X-Men comics with the foil embossed covers printed by the millions in the early 90s are worth a fortune by now!

Exactly. Even as a child I had my brief flirtation with Becketts and Scrye magazine (sports cards & MtG respectively), but I knew they were nothing compared to gold, stocks, property, or bonds. It was something that always confused me when people would talk about their console video game systems as "investments." It's entertainment, and a dated (temporal) one at that -- its $ value is in its rarity after the years relegate it as detritus, its personal value is in how much it pleases you.

Aaaand then people a mere few years older than me, Mr. Suitcases pay-to-win types, were all around selling their MtG colletions to buy homes and retire... :cry: Sometimes there are exceptions.
 

Ladybird

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I wouldn't judge it as that Grim. DC film and TV properties seem to be doing well financially. I'm not sure you can call Shazam or even Justice League a "flop". They haven't been as successful as Marvel but they are successful.
The Marvel movies have distorted what box office successes look like. It's something we see time and time and time again with disruptive megahit products; one company takes a risk and becomes the clear leader. The market is theirs to lose. Other companies see this, think "we'd like some of that money too", and try to get in, but they both rush it and go too slowly - missing the initial zeitgeist, but not taking the time to work out why it was a megahit - and spend a lot of money to end up in second place at best, because the original has learnt all the lessons, spent the money to get their initial lead, and then kept going.

The money isn't in trying and failing to be in first place. The money is in budgeting to be in second place, and nailing it, and being ready to pounce when the market leader fucks up. Because eventually, they will.
 

opaopajr

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I don’t think they would shutter it. I just think they would go completely digital with the comics and forgo the printing costs. The fanboys will still go online to comiXology to get their fix and make the adjustment.

Digital sales has apparently been flat for many years now. Part of that could be it has reached its saturation point. Or it could be Comixology app suck goose beak? :beat:
 

Endless Flight

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Robert Downey Jr. not being in any more Marvel movies is going to have a rather large effect, I think.
 

Chris Brady

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Robert Downey Jr. not being in any more Marvel movies is going to have a rather large effect, I think.
Oh, yes. Remember, most movie viewers (most of which are women) don't actually care about the plot or story, they care about how is on screen. They will remember the actor over the role. And RDJ to most MCU fans was 'Iron Man'. No one can do what he did with the role. It'll need to be sunset for about a decade before they could remake them.
 

JRT

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I think with the Marvel movies, they are aiming to make them generational. In other words, the long-term plan is not to reboot the universe, but have it be a generational thing, with perhaps new actors taking up the role, like the Falcon might do for Cap, or a new Iron Man--perhaps his daughter, perhaps Riri Williams.

If they can pull it off, that will keep the franchise going.
 

Endless Flight

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I think with the Marvel movies, they are aiming to make them generational. In other words, the long-term plan is not to reboot the universe, but have it be a generational thing, with perhaps new actors taking up the role, like the Falcon might do for Cap, or a new Iron Man--perhaps his daughter, perhaps Riri Williams.

If they can pull it off, that will keep the franchise going.

That's the way it should be. I've been saying for years that even comic books should have happened in real time. That way you don't have to keep adjusting the origin stories for all the heroes and villains, especially the ones who are tied to a specific event in the real world.
 

Chris Brady

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I think with the Marvel movies, they are aiming to make them generational. In other words, the long-term plan is not to reboot the universe, but have it be a generational thing, with perhaps new actors taking up the role, like the Falcon might do for Cap, or a new Iron Man--perhaps his daughter, perhaps Riri Williams.

If they can pull it off, that will keep the franchise going.
Given that the MCU has been adapting all comic runs from earlier (Yes, even Spider-Man: Homecoming is not an original story, it's actually Miles Morales' early run, they just changed the names, but it's almost directly lifted from them) and they're starting to use the clearly unpopular runs from 2012 on. These are comic runs that barely run a year, and then get cancelled only rebooted several months over, to get cancelled again.

It's not looking good for Phase 5 (Which is the next run of movies, most of Phase 4 are Disney+ productions.)
 

JRT

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hm, you and I are of oppositre tastes there - I find those early years of Adult Swim some of the best TV experiences of my life.

Space Ghost might have been cute, but I found that over time the more they did with Stuff like Sealab 2021, Harvey Birdman, etc...it just was taking a piss out of kids icons. Parodies are okay, but using their own characters as the parody crosses the line. For instance, Venture Bros. is a wonderful Parody of Johnny Quest and other action cartoons, but I think the actual appearance of the JQ characters crossed a line.

Let's put it this way--the only reason WB does it is because they see HB as the "other". They are not going to do to Superman or Batman or Bugs Bunny what they did with Space Ghost and Harvey Birdman and Peter Potamus. Disney isn't gonna pull this crap, and I think ultimately that makes them the better caretaker.
 

TristramEvans

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Space Ghost might have been cute, but I found that over time the more they did with Stuff like Sealab 2021, Harvey Birdman, etc...it just was taking a piss out of kids icons. Parodies are okay, but using their own characters as the parody crosses the line. For instance, Venture Bros. is a wonderful Parody of Johnny Quest and other action cartoons, but I think the actual appearance of the JQ characters crossed a line.

Just speaking for myself personally, I don't really have that line.

Let's put it this way--the only reason WB does it is because they see HB as the "other". They are not going to do to Superman or Batman or Bugs Bunny what they did with Space Ghost and Harvey Birdman and Peter Potamus. Disney isn't gonna pull this crap, and I think ultimately that makes them the better caretaker.

My personal issues with Disney are in regards to their business practices rather than how I think the characters will fare in media. But then, I'm more "connected" to certain characters than others. I'm not thrilled with Disney's handling of Spider-man, so I can at least empathize with your PoV regarding the HB characters on Adut Swim on that level, even if I don't share your sentiments.
 

Bunch

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Just a counter point to comics not being something the kids are into. You're wrong. They friggin love them in trade paperback form. From Big Nate to Wings of Fire kids are consuming this like no tomorrow. And parents are loving it because it makes reading easier and engaging. My wife who is no geek was worried at first about comics until she read an NYT article talking about all the benefits. Now she's worried the kids spend too much time reading. I think she spends to much time worrying but that goes over like a lead balloon. If they have good stories accessible to children they can be best sellers.
 

Endless Flight

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I wish I could say it was just Disney that hasn’t handled Spider-Man right. Marvel didn’t handle him right for years before the sale happened. The last good Spider-Man we got was the early JMS/Romita Jr era (2001-2003).
 

JRT

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It's not looking good for {Fill in the Blank}

So far, you've said Star Wars, Marvel, DC is "not looking good", but I think you are letting some clear biases showing and aren't basing this on any clear business related items.

Star Wars not looking good? Only Solo had a blip that could be considered a failure. Sure, the sequel trilogy has mixed fan reviews. But I don't think corporate considers the brand a failure, they've just discovered they can't do what they did with Marvel.

DC failures? Most of the movies did well. For instance, Shazam--366 million from a budget of 100? Is that a "failure". A true failure would be not making back the budget.

Marvel failure for following the 2012 storylines? I wouldn't base it on the comics success, since that is so skewed by the abyssmal state of the current direct market. You seem to be pre-judging movies that don't even exist based on personal distaste of the stories. Characters like the new female heroes (such as Squirel Girl and America Chavez and Ms. Marvel) seem to be doing well as animated properties. Again, we haven't even seen the results yet as a movie, so you're saying "it's not looking good" based on very little evidence.

I don't mind not personally liking the movies, but if you say "it's not looking good" I want to see hard data.
 

TristramEvans

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I wish I could say it was just Disney that hasn’t handled Spider-Man right. Marvel didn’t handle him right for years before the sale happened. The last good Spider-Man we got was the early JMS/Romita Jr era (2001-2003).

That was the last time I read the comics, with JMS's storyline after JRJr left being the final nail in the coffin for me. I've heard tell of the few odd series that were good since, but honestly the character just doesn't seem to be the one that I grew up with anymore, so I' decided to stick with my original Silver Age to Bronze Age run.

I enjoyed the Raimi films immensely - not perfect, y any means, but really good regardless. Even the third has enough good to outweigh the bad. And I thoroughly enjoyed Into the Spider-verse.

But I was disappointed by the Andrew Garfield films. And after the first MU film - well, I didn't even bother seeing Homecoming.
 

JRT

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But then, I'm more "connected" to certain characters than others. I'm not thrilled with Disney's handling of Spider-man, so I can at least empathize with your PoV regarding the HB characters on Adut Swim on that level, even if I don't share your sentiments.

It's not that I really care about the HB characters as much as I think children's characters should not really be taken and turned into adult aimed things. I think that is short-sighted cynical thinking. It's a general take I have and its a bit lacking in respect. (And I'm talking about the use of the actual characters, not making a parody in general).

It's kind of why Disney put the kibosh on "Star Wars: Detours", which would have been a Robot-Chicken take on the characters. It's one thing to see Spaceballs, another thing to see Darth Vader himself actually being stupid.
 

TristramEvans

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It's not that I really care about the HB characters as much as I think children's characters should not really be taken and turned into adult aimed things. I think that is short-sighted cynical thinking. It's a general take I have and its a bit lacking in respect. (And I'm talking about the use of the actual characters, not making a parody in general)..

I can see having that opinion, even if I don't share it.
 

JRT

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Just a counter point to comics not being something the kids are into. You're wrong. They friggin love them in trade paperback form. From Big Nate to Wings of Fire kids are consuming this like no tomorrow. And parents are loving it because it makes reading easier and engaging. My wife who is no geek was worried at first about comics until she read an NYT article talking about all the benefits. Now she's worried the kids spend too much time reading. I think she spends to much time worrying but that goes over like a lead balloon. If they have good stories accessible to children they can be best sellers.

Exactly! This is kind of what I'm pointing out--it's not the comic medium itself that is suffering. But these new creators and creations are reaching the kids, and not the 32 page comic that costs close to $5 now and either features Batman or Spider-Man. It's the latter that is in serious trouble, as it's now aimed at the adults who haven't given up comics, and not the new blood.

The Big Two's characters will survive, but likely not in their original form.
 

TristramEvans

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I'm really surprised that neither of the big two have tried adopting the Manga model yet
 

Endless Flight

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Those Jonny Quest cartoons from the 60s are works of art. I’ve rarely seen a cartoon exceed that quality.
 

JRT

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I can see having that opinion, even if I don't share it.

Regardless of our differing opinions, I think the key is what will be best for the long-term survival of characters.

Seth Green was quoted in a Reddit about Star Wars Detours and why he still wants the show to be seen, I'm going to post his quote here, bolding what I think are the significant take aways.

So there's actually been quite a bit of talk about this, but Detours is just on hold currently. We have 39 finished episodes and around 62 finished scripts. But that entire show was created before the decision to make more Star Wars movies, so our show (which was created by George Lucas) is an animated sitcom in the world of Star Wars, so we had a lot of conversations with Kathleen Kennedy about Star Wars in not just the next 3 years but the next 30 years, and when you're in as privileged a position as we were to be able to work on Star Wars content with its creator, you get a great sense of responsibility to the whole. I was introduced to Star Wars as a child and it was without any ironic or comedic lens, so I saw Darth Vader as scary, and I saw all of those messages very very clearly. We didn't think it made any sense, in anticipation of these new movies coming out, to spend the next 3 years with an animated sitcom as 3 generations' of kids first introduction to the Star Wars universe.

I've had a lot of parents approach me in the last few years where they showed Robot Chicken or Family Guy Star Wars before they showed them regular Star Wars. The writers on Robot Chicken and I are seeing this a lot. The same way we were introduced to classic music through Bugs Bunny or Tom & Jerry, kids are taking our ironic interpretations of He-Man or other pop culture icons and never having the opportunity to meet them sincerely. It's a really bizarre thing to wrap your head around, and because I've witnessed it firsthand, it made me more thoughtful about what we were putting it out.

I do feel that Detours is a timeless bit of entertainment. Media distribution is changing so quickly, so dramatically, that can you even imagine what distribution of content will look like in 5 years? In a day and age when Netflix series are nominated for the top accolades TV has to offer, what is to say what it will look like when the new Star Wars movie comes out? So Detours can sit on a shelf until the Star Wars movie comes out without losing any of its lustre, because what we've created is very funny, very smart and like I said before, timeless.

Aquaman has taken on so many shapes throughout his existence. I will always err on the side of "marginally useless but necessary."
 

TristramEvans

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Regardless of our differing opinions, I think the key is what will be best for the long-term survival of characters.

Seth Green was quoted in a Reddit about Star Wars Detours and why he still wants the show to be seen, I'm going to post his quote here, bolding what I think are the significant take aways.

I'm not going to try and convince you to alter your perspective in any way, but just as a counterpoint, I remember seeing the original Sea Lab cartoons as a kid...and absolutely loathing them. They were so mind-numbingly boring to me. And at that age, I was still entertained by Polka Dot Door. OTOH, I dearly love Adult Swim's Sea Lab 2021, easily one of my favourite TV shows of all time.(and featuring The Pub's own Erik Estrada in his finest role!).
 

Chris Brady

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So far, you've said Star Wars, Marvel, DC is "not looking good", but I think you are letting some clear biases showing and aren't basing this on any clear business related items.

Oh really?

Star Wars not looking good? Only Solo had a blip that could be considered a failure. Sure, the sequel trilogy has mixed fan reviews. But I don't think corporate considers the brand a failure, they've just discovered they can't do what they did with Marvel.

The fact that Star Wars has been declining in profits since The Force Awakens. It made 2 Billion, then The Last Jedi made LESS, and The Rise of Skywalker made even LESS. RoS should have been a Endgame level of profit, but it didn't. Most of the access media, are still upset at how The Rise of Skywalker literally walked back several points from The Last Jedi.

You're also not seeing the big picture. The Movies isn't reason that Disney bought Star Wars. They bought it for everything that comes WITH Star Wars, the big one is the merchandising rights (which makes MORE money that the movies EVER did.) And Disney's real business have been the Theme Parks, which is another thing that didn't do so hot this year for them.

DC failures? Most of the movies did well. For instance, Shazam--366 million from a budget of 100? Is that a "failure". A true failure would be not making back the budget.

Again, you don't seem to understand how the numbers work. Do you know the difference between Gross Income and Net Income? (Honest question, because a lot of regular joes don't seem to.) Gross is TOTAL income, BEFORE expenditures. Net is income AFTER fees and taxes and cuts. The Box Office numbers ONLY list the GROSS income.

Also, the 'Budget' that is listed, is how much the movie costs to make, and often do NOT include any reshoots (Like Solo: A Star Wars Story, which apparently had already had 80 hours of work done and then they restarted the entire production), and DOES NOT include MARKETING, that's often an EXTRA 50 to 100% (And more) to the cost of the movie.

So in Shazam's case, I'll be nice and say the Marketing only cost half the movie: So it would about 150m total cost to the Studio.

Now, Net income for the movies, after the theatre cuts vary wildly, for example in America, most theatres only get to keep 20-30%, but in China, that shifts to 70%. Japan is 65%, I believe, Canada is another 30%, so to be fair, we'll say that the Net is HALF the Gross (and I may be high balling it.) so it made in reaiity closer to 183m, a 33m profit. That's not what they were hoping for. There's a reason no one announced Shazam 2. And that's assuming that the Marketing cost wasn't another 100m, cuz if it is, it's 20m in the hole.

Here's the thing, you might not agree with the above analysis, but it doesn't matter, that's how it WORKS. The number you've read aren't the full picture. There's a reason why they claim Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse as a CRITICAL success, not a FINANCIAL one. It may have made money, just not as much to make it as profitable as the numbers they give say.

It's all spin. Just like Captain Marvel's numbers have been. Hell, at one point Deadline claimed that to break even Cap Marv needed to hit 750 MILLION, off a 300m budget. Then there's the free giveaways they did for the movie.

Marvel failure for following the 2012 storylines? I wouldn't base it on the comics success, since that is so skewed by the abyssmal state of the current direct market. You seem to be pre-judging movies that don't even exist based on personal distaste of the stories. Characters like the new female heroes (such as Squirel Girl and America Chavez and Ms. Marvel) seem to be doing well as animated properties. Again, we haven't even seen the results yet as a movie, so you're saying "it's not looking good" based on very little evidence.

So where is YOUR evidence, I'm looking through financial papers and what I know of the industry having done some peripheral work in it. Disney cancelled a whole bunch of cartoons back in 2018. Most of the 'new' cartoons are behind the Disney+ paywall, and only 30m people have that. (Compare that to Netflix 140m)

And speaking of odd numbers, that Disney+ 30 million is padded by various deals, like the FREE YEAR that Verizon customers get for subbing with them. It's all spin.

I don't mind not personally liking the movies, but if you say "it's not looking good" I want to see hard data.
And what does liking anything have to do with facts? Facts don't care about feelings and it SUCKS. I don't want Star Wars to fail. I don't want Marvel and DC to be reduced to license properties (And that's being POSITIVE, worst case scenario says they bury it so deep, no one will ever know what Superman is.) I don't want to be sad, but Facts don't care. And neither does AT&T.
 
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