DC Universe to Stream DC Heroes

Endless Flight

Middle-Aged Nerd
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
5,384
Reaction score
10,718
I liked the old DC Earth-1 and Earth-2 pre-Crisis (1985) It made it easier to understand that two Batmans or Superman’s could exist with totally different stories. Like the old Earth-1 Batman was married to Selina Kyle and their daughter was the Huntress, and Bruce Wayne became the police commissioner of Gotham after Gordon retired...if my memory is correct.
 

Dumarest

Vaquero de Alta California
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
12,323
Reaction score
23,002
...Bruce Wayne became the police commissioner of Gotham after Gordon retired...if my memory is correct.
You memory is correct:
batman16.jpg

As far as I'm concerned, the DC Universe ended with Crisis on Infinite Earths. There were a few good comics after that, but I lost interest when they decided all the stories I'd read never actually happened. Plus Wonder Girl, Huntress, Hawkman, and some others got totally screwed up in the aftermath.
 

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
9,903
Reaction score
21,003
As much as I enjoyed the Kubert run on the title, for me The Golden Age Hawkman is the only real version of that character. I could never get behind the Thanagarian alien origin retcon of the Silver Age. And since Crisis, they haven't seemed to manage to ever consolidate these ideas. Even the otherwise excellent Timm/Dini-verse screwed Hawkman over.

Weird tangent, I know, but he's my favourite DC super.
 

Séadna

Legendary Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
2,551
Reaction score
3,573
And since Crisis, they haven't seemed to manage to ever consolidate these ideas. Even the otherwise excellent Timm/Dini-verse screwed Hawkman over
Reincarnated Thanagarian wasn't it? With Jon Stewart as their human advisor?
 

Tulpa Girl

Still looking for my first TPK.
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,266
Wait until you find out what happens in May and June.

Wally West finds the Mobius Chair. However, the Mobius Chair has been infused with the power of Dr. Manhattan! So not only does Wally West now have infinite knowledge from the Mobius Chair, but he has infinite power courtesy of Dr. Manhattan. Wally West becomes the new Dr. Manhattan. He sets out to use this newly gained infinite knowledge and power to reshape the DC multiverse, creating the DC Universe's 5G.
Rant to follow...

You know, unlike a lot of comic book fans, I really don't enjoy dwelling too much on comics that I don't like for whatever reason. I know a lot of peoples like wallowing in their rage and disappointment, but I don't find it particularly healthy or enjoyable to do so. I'd rather concentrate my energies on stuff I actually enjoy.

That said, if you want to set me off for some reason, bringing up what DC has done to the character of Wally West in the last decade or so is as good a way as any.

As I've said elsewhere, I really became a DC fan in the latter half of the 80's. I know not everyone here agrees, but I really enjoyed a lot of what DC put out following Crisis On Infinite Earths. Wally West taking over as the Flash definitely falls into that category for me. Watching Wally slowly grow and mature, both as a hero and a man - actual character growth - as he tried to live up to Barry's legacy was a really nice bit of long-term handling of the character. For me, and an entire generation of fans, Wally was the Flash, period.

Now, I admittedly know next to nothing about how the character was handled in the 'aughts. That said, was anybody, and I do mean anybody, besides Dan Didio and Geoff Johns clamoring for the return of Barry Allen as the Flash? Barry Allen, the Most Boring Man Alive? I'm not even exaggerating for effect there - Barry was pretty much a cipher in terms of characterization back when his book was published pre-Crisis. He got more characterization retroactively in the occasional flashback during Wally's run than he ever did in the quarter-century or so that he had his own book. Hell, back in the late 60's and early 70's when the Justice League of America started making at least a token attempt at giving the various characters different personality traits (as opposed to the early Gardener Fox stories, which had no characterization), Barry's character tic was pretty much that, by contrast to the others, he was the dry and boring one.

(I think it says something that the TV version of Barry in many ways more closely resembles comics-Wally than comics-Barry... because at least Wally has a personality)

So they make Barry the Flash again. But I guess people kept asking for Wally back, so they eventually did so... and then proceeded to make his guilty of mass manslaughter in Heroes In Crisis. So we can appreciate just how much better we have it with Saint Barry as the Flash. Bleargh.
 

Apparition

New Generation Grognard
Administrator
Joined
Jul 29, 2017
Messages
2,001
Reaction score
2,605
Rant to follow...

You know, unlike a lot of comic book fans, I really don't enjoy dwelling too much on comics that I don't like for whatever reason. I know a lot of peoples like wallowing in their rage and disappointment, but I don't find it particularly healthy or enjoyable to do so. I'd rather concentrate my energies on stuff I actually enjoy.

That said, if you want to set me off for some reason, bringing up what DC has done to the character of Wally West in the last decade or so is as good a way as any.

As I've said elsewhere, I really became a DC fan in the latter half of the 80's. I know not everyone here agrees, but I really enjoyed a lot of what DC put out following Crisis On Infinite Earths. Wally West taking over as the Flash definitely falls into that category for me. Watching Wally slowly grow and mature, both as a hero and a man - actual character growth - as he tried to live up to Barry's legacy was a really nice bit of long-term handling of the character. For me, and an entire generation of fans, Wally was the Flash, period.

Now, I admittedly know next to nothing about how the character was handled in the 'aughts. That said, was anybody, and I do mean anybody, besides Dan Didio and Geoff Johns clamoring for the return of Barry Allen as the Flash? Barry Allen, the Most Boring Man Alive? I'm not even exaggerating for effect there - Barry was pretty much a cipher in terms of characterization back when his book was published pre-Crisis. He got more characterization retroactively in the occasional flashback during Wally's run than he ever did in the quarter-century or so that he had his own book. Hell, back in the late 60's and early 70's when the Justice League of America started making at least a token attempt at giving the various characters different personality traits (as opposed to the early Gardener Fox stories, which had no characterization), Barry's character tic was pretty much that, by contrast to the others, he was the dry and boring one.

(I think it says something that the TV version of Barry in many ways more closely resembles comics-Wally than comics-Barry... because at least Wally has a personality)

So they make Barry the Flash again. But I guess people kept asking for Wally back, so they eventually did so... and then proceeded to make his guilty of mass manslaughter in Heroes In Crisis. So we can appreciate just how much better we have it with Saint Barry as the Flash. Bleargh.

I agree with everything you said there. I started seriously reading DC Comics with Crisis on Infinite Earths, and was all aboard the reboot. I bought all of John Byrne's Superman run starting with Man of Steel, read and collected Batman, Detective Comics, Wonder Woman, Justice League International, The Flash, Booster Gold, Blue Beetle. With the early '90s, I became a huge fan of Kyle Rayner, Jack Knight Starman, and the post-Zero Hour Legion of Super-Heroes. From 1986 until 2005, I was a DC Comics fanatic. Identity Crisis is when they started to lose me. Then they brought back Hal Jordan (the most boring Green Lantern ever), and Barry Allen (who should have stayed a fallen hero). Why? Who asked for this? Then I gave The New 52 a chance, but they lost me.
 
Last edited:

FeralToaster

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
791
Reaction score
849
Wait... I'm trying to pick a new comic series to read. Does Dr. Manhattan and the Watchmen now being part of the DC canon in universe have anything to do with the Batman who Laughs's Dark Multiverse of evil Elseworlds Batmen? because that's a dealbreaker for me.
 

Dumarest

Vaquero de Alta California
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
12,323
Reaction score
23,002
Barry Allen is my Flash and Hal Jordan is my Green Lantern but the best thing DC could've done if they had to kill the former and retire the latter would have been to let the Flash die saving the universe and let his protégé Wally West pick up the baton and try to live up the legacy, and to let Hal Jordan ride off into the sunset and have the balls to make John Stewart be the Green Lantern. But not a bald one. I liked Original Recipe™John Stewart.
latest.jpg
2959569-greenlantern183.jpg
 
Last edited:

FeralToaster

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
791
Reaction score
849
Meanwhile Guy Gardner, Kyle Raynor, and Simon Baz are in the sidekick lounge arguing with the various Robins.
 

Tulpa Girl

Still looking for my first TPK.
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,266
Barry Allen is my Flash and Hal Jordan is my Green Lantern but the best thing DC could've done if they had to kill the former and retire the latter would have been to let the Flash die saving the universe and let his protégé Wally West pick up the baton and try to live up the legacy, and to let Hal Jordan ride off into the sunset and have the balls to make John Stewart be the Green Lantern. But not a bald one. I liked Original Recipe™John Stewart.
You know, if they had just retired Wally - preferably still happily married to Linda - so a new Flash could take over the legacy for a new generation of fans, I would have zero problem with that. Both Flash and GL lend themselves well to that sort of approach.

It's the myopic, backward-looking need of people like Geoff Johns to regurgitate their childhood heroes instead of telling new stories that hacks me off.
 

Armchair Gamer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2017
Messages
192
Reaction score
245
I tend to be on the edges of comics fandom, but I know there was demand, at least from some, to bring Hal Jordan back--probably spurred in part by the way the writers handled the character in the process of killing him off.
 

Bunch

Prince of Insufficient Light.
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
5,563
Reaction score
7,757
I saw on TBP the producer is Freddie Prinze Jr who's apparently first RPG was DC Universe
 

Malleustein

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
224
Reaction score
387
DC Heroes 2nd Edition was my gateway into DC comics. I was certainly aware of the major heroes and villains beforehand, but it wasn't until I saw the role playing game write-ups that I was very interested. The brief and tantalizing biographies made the DC universe seem rich with fascinating characters and events. The character cards didn't hurt either.

I quickly grew to like some of the post-Crisis heroes, as well as delving into pre-Crisis stories when I had the chance.

Then the worthless piece of shit called Identity Crisis came along. The art fine, but everything else in it was ugly and stupid. It made me hate the DC universe because it showed no respect for the heroes, supporting cast, villains, original creators or readership.

DC shoving Watchmen into continuity has come far too late for me to so much as raise an eyebrow.

I still think highly of the DC Heroes role playing game though. Especially the World at War sourcebook, which has served me admirably over the years.
 
Last edited:

ORtrail

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
86
Reaction score
126
As much as I enjoyed the Kubert run on the title, for me The Golden Age Hawkman is the only real version of that character. I could never get behind the Thanagarian alien origin retcon of the Silver Age. And since Crisis, they haven't seemed to manage to ever consolidate these ideas. Even the otherwise excellent Timm/Dini-verse screwed Hawkman over.

Weird tangent, I know, but he's my favourite DC super.
The Timothy Truman run with Hawkworld was the first time I got into Hawkman. I was into Batman and the various Justice League comics through most of the 90's. I'm tired of the constant reboots though, which have kept me from getting back into DC comics.
 

Tulpa Girl

Still looking for my first TPK.
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,266
I'm a big Truman fangirl (Scout, Grimjack), and I dug the Hawkworld mimi for what it was. The problem was that DC editorial declared it to be set in the then-current day, as opposed to being a 'Year One' flashback story (which was Truman's intent). And so Hawkman became the poster child for fucked up continuity (usurping Donna Troy from that role).
 

Apparition

New Generation Grognard
Administrator
Joined
Jul 29, 2017
Messages
2,001
Reaction score
2,605
Ray Winninger talked elsewhere about this. A few things he mentioned:

When the discussion with Green Ronin took place to make DC Adventures (the DC-riffic version of Mutants & Masterminds 3E), about ten years ago, some of the DC Comics people wondered, "Why don't we just re-publish DC Heroes 3E instead?" So a reprint of DC Heroes is definitely possible. But DC Comics will probably wait to see how popular DCU All-Star Games becomes first. Should they decide to re-publish DC Heroes, it would most likely be 3E, with updated characters and character stats.
 

Gabriel

Legendary Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2019
Messages
703
Reaction score
1,370
DC Heroes 2nd Edition was my gateway into DC comics. I was certainly aware of the major heroes and villains beforehand, but it wasn't until I saw the role playing game write-ups that I was very interested. The brief and tantalizing biographies made the DC universe seem rich with fascinating characters and events. The character cards didn't hurt either.
This is similar to what I'm experiencing with 1e.
 

Malleustein

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
224
Reaction score
387
This is similar to what I'm experiencing with 1e.
I played both editions interchangeably. I owned 2nd Edition and the referee owned 1st Edition. He liked me to bring my copy for the screen and wheel. The rules appeared about the same to me at the time. Everyone just liked the big, black Batman box to keep out hero sheets and notes in.
 

Endless Flight

Middle-Aged Nerd
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
5,384
Reaction score
10,718
They should reprint 3e but make the setting and character chapters much longer. 3e had very little of that. They need to take the roster/background book of 2e and integrate it. Should tally around 300 pages. Put a cover done by Jim Cheung and I’m all set.
 

Dumarest

Vaquero de Alta California
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
12,323
Reaction score
23,002
The main differences in rules between 1st and 2nd are:
  • Power costs in 2nd are gauged based on usefulness (generally meaning combat effectiveness)
  • 2nd has advantages and drawbacks so you can give a character minor tweaks (some skills from 1st are just advantages in 2nd)
  • 2nd has wealth measured in APs instead of just a rank name
 

Allen Varney

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2017
Messages
33
Reaction score
120
The main differences in rules between 1st and 2nd are:
Second Edition also has completely different Gadget rules. I believe Third Edition presents yet another shy at the Gadget rules, which were always the weeping sore of the DC Heroes system.
 

ORtrail

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
86
Reaction score
126
Dangerous question, but what edition of DC Heroes is the best version? Sounds like 2nd or maybe 3rd edition based on reading this thread.
 

TristramEvans

The Right Hand of Doom
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
9,903
Reaction score
21,003
Dangerous question, but what edition of DC Heroes is the best version? Sounds like 2nd or maybe 3rd edition based on reading this thread.
All have their qualities and drawbacks.

1st edition I own because of the art.

2nd edition is one of the best boxed sets of all time.

3rd edition is the most comprehensive, and at the same time the least flavourful. Just for rules, I'd say 3rd, but for the experience I'd say 2nd.

And the Batman RPG is a really great introduction that is hyper-focused on one part of the DCU.
 

Dumarest

Vaquero de Alta California
Joined
Jan 20, 2018
Messages
12,323
Reaction score
23,002
Second Edition also has completely different Gadget rules. I believe Third Edition presents yet another shy at the Gadget rules, which were always the weeping sore of the DC Heroes system.
Really only a problem for nerds who insisted on being able to build ordinary items, and fixed by 2nd edition.
 

Caesar Slaad

Legendary Member
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
247
Reaction score
377
Yeah, gadgets in 1e were super fun... and super abusable.

I also remember links/mystic links being more abusable in 1e.
 

Endless Flight

Middle-Aged Nerd
Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
5,384
Reaction score
10,718
I thought the gadget rules in 2e were pretty good. 3e refined then a bit more.
 

Apparition

New Generation Grognard
Administrator
Joined
Jul 29, 2017
Messages
2,001
Reaction score
2,605
Mr. Winninger stressed again elsewhere that he thinks DC Comics would likely republish DC Heroes 3E if (and only if), the new streaming show gets traction.

So if you want to see DC Heroes back in print, watch (and get people to watch) DCU All-Star Games.
 

Malleustein

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
224
Reaction score
387
The main differences in rules between 1st and 2nd are:
  • Power costs in 2nd are gauged based on usefulness (generally meaning combat effectiveness)
  • 2nd has advantages and drawbacks so you can give a character minor tweaks (some skills from 1st are just advantages in 2nd)
  • 2nd has wealth measured in APs instead of just a rank name
Second Edition also has completely different Gadget rules. I believe Third Edition presents yet another shy at the Gadget rules, which were always the weeping sore of the DC Heroes system.
Huh, I think the other referee was just using 2nd Edition then, because I don't remember ever playing DC Heroes without advantages and disadvantages. Maybe he brought 1st Edition along for comfort.
 
Top