Doctor Who mega-thread [Spoilers][Merged]

[Ghost Whistler]

That was...disappointing. I don't understand the purpose of this massive retcon nor who Dr Ruth is meant to be.

The

Spoiler: spoiler

Timelord Cybermen

were stupid.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Spoiler

No, I meant within context of the world. Apparently all Gallifreans have two hearts. But if the Doctor is NOT Gallifrean, why does she have two hearts?

Same reason the First Doctor invented the TARDIS and his granddaughter came up with the name.

 

[Chris Brady]

Actually, he stole the TARDIS, it was the only one of it's kind.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Actually, he stole the TARDIS, it was the only one of it's kind.

Go watch An Unearthly Child.

That was...disappointing. I don't understand the purpose of this massive retcon nor who Dr Ruth is meant to be.

The

Spoiler: spoiler

Timelord Cybermen

were stupid.

Spoiler: Spoilers, Professor Song!

It wasn’t a retcon any more than the original Time Lords were. It’s a reinterpretation of the Cartmel Master Plan. And If you don’t not understand the Ruth Doctor, go watch it again.

She was working for something called The Division. They wiped her memory, made her regenerate into a child and sent her to the academy.

The real question is, why was her TARDIS a police box?

 

[Ladybird]

Spoiler

No, I meant within context of the world. Apparently all Gallifreans have two hearts. But if the Doctor is NOT Gallifrean, why does she have two hearts?

Spoiler: Two hearts

Shobogans, the "old" Gallifreyans, didn't have two hearts. But Time Lords / "modern" Gallifreyans (If there is still a distinction) are a hybrid of them and whatever the Doctor is, so it's more that they have two hearts due to her.

Spoiler: Regarding the episode

So that was fantastic. It actually answered questions in a way that respected prior stories, as well as asking so many more on top. And the reinterpretation of the Master Plan was fantastic, making the Doctor a mystery that's both important and justifies actions like the Master's. The Cybermen Time Lords, well, not the best idea, but very Master, and so much better than the last time she created the Cybermen.

People should stop inventing Cybermen. It always goes badly.

When the old man stayed behind with the bomb, I was very, very much expecting to hear a regeneration start up. His necklace looked too conspicuous, and like it might be a chameleon arch.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

It fundamentally rewrites the character of the doctor in a way that doesn't add anything positive. Now she's the creator of Gallifrey because...?

It's a change that's egregious and uncessary and unjustifed. It had no bearing on the rest of the episode and left the Dr out of action for almost the entire run time. It also doesn't justify the Cartmel masterplan either, the purpose of which was to restore mystery to the character. This doesn't do that.

Spoiler

I'm not sure that's who Ruth is. I dont think they explained that specifically.

The Division thing was the Doctor's memory of her experience as the Timeless Child regenerating for the first time after falling off a cliff. That got overlaid onto her experience working for the Division who are Timelords working undercover doing stuff across time and space in secret

 

[Stevethulhu]

It fundamentally rewrites the character of the doctor in a way that doesn't add anything positive. Now she's the creator of Gallifrey because...?

It's a change that's egregious and uncessary and unjustifed. It had no bearing on the rest of the episode and left the Dr out of action for almost the entire run time. It also doesn't justify the Cartmel masterplan either, the purpose of which was to restore mystery to the character. This doesn't do that.

Spoiler

I'm not sure that's who Ruth is. I dont think they explained that specifically.

The Division thing was the Doctor's memory of her experience as the Timeless Child regenerating for the first time after falling off a cliff. That got overlaid onto her experience working for the Division who are Timelords working undercover doing stuff across time and space in secret

Like everything else in Who, if the next story editor likes it, it stays.

Otherwise, the Doctor is half human. On his mother's side.

Which is canon, btw. It was in the TV movie.

 

[Ladybird]

I thought the episode was very clear, and explicit in what formerly disconnected plot elements were actually about. I also really, really like it when there's a mystery the Doctor can't instantly solve, because it makes the universe feel BIG; when she's too clever, it can make things feel far too small.

It fundamentally rewrites the character of the doctor in a way that doesn't add anything positive. Now she's the creator of Gallifrey because...?

Spoiler

She's not the creator of Gallifrey. She was used by others, including her adoptive mother, in the process of creating modern Gallifreyans; but it's Tecteun who actually did it and built their culture.

It's a change that's egregious and uncessary and unjustifed. It had no bearing on the rest of the episode and left the Dr out of action for almost the entire run time. It also doesn't justify the Cartmel masterplan either, the purpose of which was to restore mystery to the character. This doesn't do that.

Spoiler

The Master's grudge is against the Doctor and the Time Lords explicitly, the fam just tagged along for the ride, and the Master tends not to care about companions unless he can use them to get at the Doctor. And in any Master episode, he has a habit of picking up a lot of screen time because he is a GIANT HAM.

Spoiler

I'm not sure that's who Ruth is. I dont think they explained that specifically.

The Division thing was the Doctor's memory of her experience as the Timeless Child regenerating for the first time after falling off a cliff. That got overlaid onto her experience working for the Division who are Timelords working undercover doing stuff across time and space in secret

Spoiler

They explicitly stated who Ruth was - The Doctor - but what that means is potentially far more complicated now, especially as she can't be a past or future regeneration.

What we've seen strongly seems to imply that the scenes in the office weren't relating to the Timeless Child's regeneration, they were relating to her reincarnation; whatever process clears the TC's memories and sends her back to childhood.

What Ruth can be is a future reincarnation, which would fit with her having a TARDIS. Or, if all modern Gallifreyans having the same base genetic code is enough to set off the Judoon's scanner, then the Doctor may be an archetype that The Division mentally reprograms Gallifreyans into; her having the same TARDIS design would make sense if they're mentally built to be the same person. Who knows? We'll have to tune in next time.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Spoiler

So the Master transmitted the images of ireland to the doctor and says Tectaun redacted them from the matrix.
They are shown overlaying the images of her finding the child.
The Master also says "what did they do to you doctor" when she looks at the clock while the old man is being zapped in the office.

Personally I don't like this way of setting things up. It just begs too many questions.

I would also like to have seen jack return if only to add some much needed levity to the main story. It was a little dark for my taste.

 

[Ladybird]

Personally I don't like this way of setting things up. It just begs too many questions.

I would also like to have seen jack return if only to add some much needed levity to the main story. It was a little dark for my taste.

Like I said, I liked it. I love that it's not a neat reset button or a bunch of new bullshit that we know will only get explained in passing later on. There were resolutions and there are new questions, but from the way this series arc was plotted out, I'm sure they'll get answered in time. We just have to wait.

The episode already had a lot of characters to deal with, so there wasn't room to add another scene-stealer like Jack. But we got Graham stuck inside a cybersuit, so I guess that's the lot for the comedy.

 

[Tom B]

I enjoyed it as well. I found it interesting, especially the look at the Doctor's origins. It also adds another layer to the whole "The Doctor's name is very important and mustn't be known" as it would seem to time back to her arrival, and possibly bears other significance.

 

[Chris Brady]

Well, I'm sincerely glad people like it, I'll be bowing out, however, too many inconsistencies and bad choices for me to accept. Peace out, peeps!

 

[Stevethulhu]

Well, I'm sincerely glad people like it, I'll be bowing out, however, too many inconsistencies and bad choices for me to accept. Peace out, peeps!

You don't watch Doctor Who for consistency. One year its half a dozen pre Hartnell Doctors, the next it's only 12 regenerations allowed.

 

[Séadna]

Spoiler: Who knows

To be honest as somebody who hasn't watched much Who or doesn't have the greatest grasp of the lore, I don't really see where the inconsistencies are or how it fundamentally rewrites the character.

In the old series and novels there are several occasions where the doctor is implied or shown to have regens pre-Hartnell and they were clearly building toward something like this with the "Other" and the loom stuff back in the 80s

 

[Ladybird]

Well, I'm sincerely glad people like it, I'll be bowing out, however, too many inconsistencies and bad choices for me to accept. Peace out, peeps!

That's cool. It'll be a different series in a few years anyway

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Part of the argument is that, during the latter part of the Tennant era and throughout the SMith era, the doctor became this vast god like being whose reputation preceded him. Entire civilisations would quail at his name etc.

That's fine as far as it goes, but it takes away from simply being a traveller who, with his exposition-enabling chums , turns up in some random place and has an adventure before buggering off to pastures new.

It depends on what your preference is I suppose. I don't think Timeless Children was a terrible episode by any means. It was however exhausting and IMO a little bit too unfulfilling. Of course it's entirely possible Chibnall is a master of three dimensional chess and this may all work out into something genuinely clever and exciting, but years of Steven Moffat have stunted my expectations unfortunately.

 

[Ladybird]

That's fine as far as it goes, but it takes away from simply being a traveller who, with his exposition-enabling chums , turns up in some random place and has an adventure before buggering off to pastures new.

Yeah, it was getting a bit much. If you can solve problems by saying "I'm the Doctor" and swishing your coat around a bit... well, where's the drama.

Maybe The Division will turn out to be something like the Time Lord equivalent of Knight Industries

 

[Séadna]

I think that was very similar to how Sherlock was written. Everybody thinking he is amazing and the world itself being aware of his mythos.

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Yeah, it was getting a bit much. If you can solve problems by saying "I'm the Doctor" and swishing your coat around a bit... well, where's the drama.

Maybe The Division will turn out to be something like the Time Lord equivalent of Knight Industries

I guess the acronym CIA was taken

They'll have to think of a good way to use it since the Master killed everyone on the citadel somehow

 

[Stevethulhu]

I guess the acronym CIA was taken

They'll have to think of a good way to use it since the Master killed everyone on the citadel somehow

Other than Rassilon, plus any followers he had. A d then theres Romana.

 

[Ladybird]

Other than Rassilon, plus any followers he had. A d then theres Romana.

Let's be honest, there were exactly as many survivors as future stories will need. Getting wiped out is basically a slow Thursday for the Time Lords.

 

[Stevethulhu]

Let's be honest, there were exactly as many survivors as future stories will need. Getting wiped out is basically a slow Thursday for the Time Lords.

Maybe a busy weekend. But when you're the self appointed Lords of Time, it's not improbable that you'll be doing the impossible on a semi regular basis.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

None of this storyline annoyed me as much as I expected it to. It irritated my friends more, and they aren't as invested or dedicated in Doctor Who as I am. Maybe I'm softening in my old age.

I'm a sucker for a Cyberman story. They're my favourite monster and I will put up with a bad story if they're in it. Which is a good thing, because they don't get many great stories on TV.

I like the new Master. My friend dislikes his return to villainy after Missy's growth, but I love a big ham.

The Time Lords being destroyed by the Master is funny, but not surprising. In the War Games they were terrifying techno-gods, able to freeze time and erase their enemies from existence. In every subsequent appearance they are bumbling fools, forever being deceived or invaded. A stiff breeze would probably do them in. The Master probably said "Boo!" and they all fainted.

As for the Timeless Child, it was written by a fan to answer old unanswered questions. Now we know who those other faces of the Doctor were in the Brain of Morbius and what Lady Peinforte was rambling on about in Silver Nemesis. It changes little, though I would have preferred the child not to have been the Doctor herself.

The new Cybermen designed was good. The Cyber-Time Lords looked silly. While I liked the script on their faces, the robes and head pieces were bad. I expected them to walk out with bronze armour, since all Time Lords are Prydonians these days...

 

[Ghost Whistler]

Yeah the design for the cyber time lords was lacking. They were just Elizabethan cyberman, wearing roughs and collars.

Which you might think sounds cool. Sounds.

Seems that these days anything can breach the Tardis as well!

 

[Stevethulhu]

I find the backlash against Sunday's episode to be something tht warms my cold and flinty heart. Including some wonderfully bent out of shape people on various Who fan forums.

Now you all know how I felt for pretty much the whole of Matt Smith's run.

 

[Ladybird]

I'm quite fond of the Cybermen, because I like their kind of body horror, and there have been a few stories hinting that they're not necessarily always evil, they could potentially coexist with biological life. If they weren't always used as someone's invented goons and a given Cyberman species could last past one story, there's a lot of story potential in them.

The new Cybermen designed was good. The Cyber-Time Lords looked silly. While I liked the script on their faces, the robes and head pieces were bad. I expected them to walk out with bronze armour, since all Time Lords are Prydonians these days...

They did look a bit silly, but I thought they looked silly in the right sort of way; like a rambling madman with delusions of grandeur might make because he wants to gloat at his frenemy about his genius plan, and sold the Time Lord / Cyberman mix well. The Master isn't understated; he wouldn't do something subtle, and I can easily imagine him cackling with glee as he worked on the design.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

They did look a bit silly, but I thought they looked silly in the right sort of way; like a rambling madman with delusions of grandeur might make because he wants to gloat at his frenemy about his genius plan, and sold the Time Lord / Cyberman mix well. The Master isn't understated; he wouldn't do something subtle, and I can easily imagine him cackling with glee as he worked on the design.

Oh, I agree that the Dhawan Master would do so, though he must have planned to do it all along, otherwise it is a lot of effort in a short space of time just to mock his race.

I dislike it myself though, especially since the new design itself is generally so strong. I would remove the spikes on the shoulders, but otherwise it is a top five appearance, probably the best new look the 2005 show has given us.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

The BBC announced today that Jodie Whittacker and Chris Chibnall are both leaving Doctor Who at the end of 2022 after a trio of specials.

Jodie Whittaker and Chris Chibnall to leave Doctor Who in a trio of Specials, culminating in an epic blockbuster Special to air in autumn 2022 as part of the BBC’s Centenary celebrations.

With a six-part Event Serial announced for the autumn, and two Specials already planned for 2022, BBC One has now asked for an additional final feature length adventure for the Thirteenth Doctor, to form a trio of Specials for 2022, before the Doctor regenerates once more.

 

[spittingimage]

What's the deal with the Doctor's actors only lasting a season or two? I admit I've been hoping they'd change the writers and keep Whittaker.

 

[Ladybird]

What's the deal with the Doctor's actors only lasting a season or two? I admit I've been hoping they'd change the writers and keep Whittaker.

Three series tends to be about normal, although Jodie's series have also been shorter in terms of episodes - it felt like they were only just getting dug in.

It's a pity that they're going, because they've set up so many interesting mysteries in the last series and now I doubt they're going to be solved at all, ever, unless Chibnall has someone picked to succeed him.

 

[JRT]

What's the deal with the Doctor's actors only lasting a season or two? I admit I've been hoping they'd change the writers and keep Whittaker.

Actually, except for Christopher Eccleston (one season), all of the Doctor's have had a similar amount of time, 3 seasons, with a few having extra specials. David Tenant's might seem longer because of that mini-season of specials going for another year.

To be honest, I think the franchise really needs a bit of a break. Even though British TV is shorter than Network TV in America, the seasons are about as long as a Netflix or AMC series, and that's a lot of stories.

I guess to me, the problem is that I think while I expect each incarnation of the Doctor to be different and set a different tone, conceptually the shift in showrunners to me has been the biggest issue for fatigue. I absolutely loved Russell T. Davies restart of the series, and I felt his stories were the best, and I felt he handled the series well. (My only dislike is how the Doctor has become so famous which was hardly a part of the pre-2005 series). I think Steven Moffat has some brilliant ideas, but they worked better as isolated episodes. Once he became showrunner, there were a lot of inconsistencies in my mind, and I felt there were a lot more gimmicks, extra emphasis on his companions being special in some weird way (Amy, Clara, River Song), less use of older characters, retcons for the sake of retcons, etc. It just didn't feel as good as it was. Perhaps that's why I haven't watched more that a few episodes of the Chris Chibnall series--I liked Jodie Whittaker's take from what I saw, but the few episodes after that felt extremely dull and not S-F related at all.

Maybe the BBC needs to give the Doctor a break, take at least 5 years off, and then come back with something a bit more fresh. Get people to miss having it around. I think it's been running a bit too long without a break.

 

[Paradigm Shaft]

I think they should make the Doctor digivolve into a non-human looking alien. Then the arc of the first season would be 'Hey, why did that happen?'

And his companion should be a cat.

 

[TristramEvans]

IF the new Doctor was a dog, and his companion a cat (and maybe a guinea pig and a rat), I would watch the shit out of that.

"TARDIS from the Riverbank"

 

[spittingimage]

Spoiler: Massive Spoilers of recent Dr Who

I'd be happier if they dialled the power level back a bit. For the Master to kill the entire Timelord people off-screen and the Doctor to be the progenetrix of her race is a bit much.

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

Spoiler: Massive Spoilers of recent Dr Who

I'd be happier if they dialled the power level back a bit. For the Master to kill the entire Timelord people off-screen and the Doctor to be the progenetrix of her race is a bit much.

It's basically all been various flavours of over-the-top since Tennant. Mostly because the showrunners insist on mystery box series storylines that they can't think of good ways to solve. Chibbers has certainly made his mark with his creative genius.

 

[Nobby-W]

What's the deal with the Doctor's actors only lasting a season or two? I admit I've been hoping they'd change the writers and keep Whittaker.

Tom Baker got horribly typecast as The Doctor and I think folks are a little paranoid about that happening again. He was also quite difficult by all accounts[1] and had a lot of power due to his stardom in the role. I suspect the Beeb's management don't want that happening again. However, the franchise is still commercially successful so I can't see them dropping it unless that changes.
_______________
1 - Once upon a time Lalla Ward was at a con and got asked about the scariest monster she ever saw on Doctor Who, replying 'Tom Baker'. If you google this, you can find more recent con footage where she says how tired she is of repeating the joke.

 

[TJS]

They don't just need a new Doctor and showrunner, the whole damn thing needs a complete rethink.

This whole 45 minute story format has grown increasingly tired, as has the whole bigger and more ridiculous season ending over the top climax.

They need to try something new. Divide the season in 2 or something and have discrete stories that aren't so rushed or something. Even when there were talented writers in charge it often ended up messy and half-baked.

And the way people watch TV has changed profoundly. I'm not sure the whole event TV thing that Russel T Davies was able to make use of works any more.

 

[Ladybird]

Spoiler: Massive Spoilers of recent Dr Who

I'd be happier if they dialled the power level back a bit. For the Master to kill the entire Timelord people off-screen and the Doctor to be the progenetrix of her race is a bit much.

Spoiler

That's not quite how it happened. Tecteun, a Gallifreyan / Shobogan, found a child who could regenerate, studied her, and then introduced that ability to the Gallifreyans, which was part of what turned them into the Time Lords. The child kept on regenerating when she died, but her memories were wiped every so often by a shadow time lord group called The Division, and sometimes she seemed to regenerate into a child instead of an adult. So the child / Doctor isn't so much the progenitor of the Time Lords, she's the only member of a completely different species that they learned how to regenerate from. The Doctor was probably also The Other, but that's a point which has always been possible but purposefully fuzzy.

oh goddess i'm a doctor who lore bore shoot me now

I've always appreciated episodes where things happen that The Doctor doesn't understand or that don't fit into some neat continuity (Like the alternate Jo Grant Doctor, which opens up new space for multi-Doctor crossover stories that couldn't be done before), and the Timeless Child storyline certainly has a lot of new possibilities; like, now they can do a story where the Doctor just straight-up dies, dead, without the series needing to end because we can pick up the timeline of a previous incarnation.

 

[Silverlion]

I was just watching a video, where the fourth doctor fights a villain mentally through a device and you see his past incarnations, including some blurry face that you can't identify, so is it really the 14/15th doctor? Or has the Doctor had more identities than we know?

 

[Chaotic Wooster]

I was just watching a video, where the fourth doctor fights a villain mentally through a device and you see his past incarnations, including some blurry face that you can't identify, so is it really the 14/15th doctor? Or has the Doctor had more identities than we know?

That's how some fans read it.
Others see it as the past lives of his foe, Morbius.
In truth, it was just the production team dicking around.

Sadly, it's responsible for all the nonsense we were put through at the end of the last series.