Does the term "OSR" just mean "D&D?

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Fenris-77

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Poison, Warrant, Skid Row, and E'Nuff Z'Nuff are the same as AC/DC, Judas Priest, and Iron Maiden because they are all filed under "metal" in a 1989 record store's categorization system, and no one can point out that this is incoherent, or that the former bands are syrupy garbage, because they're all taking advantage of laws allowing each band to cover whatever material it chooses to in its albums.

If someone makes this observation then clearly they are full of despair, or implying that Poison, Warrant, Skid Row, and E'Nuff Z'Nuff should have to get approval for the songs they cover from some outside authority, because I had an argument with someone else 12 years ago based on a loosely similar premise.
Well, some heart-warming metal nostagia aside, the OSR scene still isn't syrupy, dumbed-down, or incoherent.
 

EOTB

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Well, some heart-warming metal nostagia aside, the OSR scene still isn't syrupy, dumbed-down, or incoherent.
The guy with the Powerslave avatar liked my post, so I rest on it being a matter of taste ;)

But I mean - your difference of opinion is kind of the point. My post has nothing to do with open licensing. More power to everyone being able to write anything they want - I was never griping about that.

I was instead pointing out (ironically) the same thing as Rob's central premise. That the OSR is really just a movement about open sourcing. It's not a game movement per se, it's a movement about fans being able to write anything they want and selling it. That's a movement about commercial freedom in an industry. It's transitioned from a movement about a style of gaming to a movement celebrating anyone being able to sell their style of gaming using IP everyone is familiar with. And that's cool, in a way, but at some point that won't be new anymore, it will just be how its always been. "OSR" will follow the trajectory of "IBM Compatible" in the sense of it meaning anything, as a term, to anyone.
 
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Fenris-77

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I think that's an uncharitable take on the OSR scene. Sure, given that it's open source there are going to be some, ahh, hobby-level contributions, that's inevitable. But there is also a metric shizz-ton of great things available, which wouldn't be the case without the OGL and general OSR zeitgeist. I don't think that adds up to your overall read on the scene though. YMMV.
 
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Going forward, D&D has many editions. Going backwards, there's only one first edition of the game (and only one with a roughly straight-line pedigree through Blackmoor to Wesely's original Braunstein) built on certain assumptions and having certain discrete characteristics. It's war-gamey mechanics clearly shaped how the game was played, just as its open-ended, this-is-just-a-guide approach must have, especially compared to later editions. But its primitive production was more than just a failure to do better. It also had a material impact on the way the game was approached and played, being yet another quality of the old-school. In other words, it's far more than just open sourcing. The OSR is taking from the past and applying it to the present, both in the form of literal clones and any number of, for want of a better term, spiritual clones not necessarily falling under the OGL...
 
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Voros

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There's no despair in my post Rob. It's an observation that applies generally to all tents/causes/movements, and an accurate observation; the OSR did not escape the dynamic. But it's not despairing of anything. If you'd have asked me if I had any despair about how the OSR developed, I could have told you "no". As you mention, it is the simple outcome of "hundreds all being able to march to the tune of their own drummers". Now, how does that work when hundreds are all going in different directions?

Again, I suspect that my posts have, to you, become some sort of proxy for arguments you had with other people in 2007/8. And you're arguing against a ghost.

My counter argument would be that most 'movements' end up strangling more creativity than they inspire and that is the result of the rapid onset of dogmaticism and purity tests rather than any kind of dilution or lack of focus, notions which I don't think mean much in this context.
 

Voros

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Poison, Warrant, Skid Row, and E'Nuff Z'Nuff are the same as AC/DC, Judas Priest, and Iron Maiden because they are all filed under "metal" in a 1989 record store's categorization system, and no one can point out that this is incoherent, or that the former bands are syrupy garbage, because they're all taking advantage of laws allowing each band to cover whatever material it chooses to in its albums.

If someone makes this observation then clearly they are full of despair, or implying that Poison, Warrant, Skid Row, and E'Nuff Z'Nuff should have to get approval for the songs they cover from some outside authority, because I had an argument with someone else 12 years ago based on a loosely similar premise.

The issue I would bring up to this is that a band like AC/DC for instance would have hardly considered their music 'metal' when they were at their peak and I doubt would feel much affinity with the musical approach of Maiden or Judas Priest. These definitions were fuzzy and often ill advised from the get go.

In my experience most artists are allergic to their work being slotted into any narrow definition, particularly when it comes with expectations, 'rules,' etc.

Those bands who most readily embraced being 'punk' or 'metal' or whatever were more often hacks, cool chasers, etc.

That so many game designers seem interested in having their work fit under the OSR moniker is strange to me for this reason. Beyond the (very) slight commercial advantage it grants.

I mean I get that being 'cool' is a big attraction to being in a band but it seems oddly odd out place for one of the nerdiest pursuits known to man like game design.
 
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Stevethulhu

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“Talk Dirty To Me” is a great song.
I like he Open Up And Say ...Aaah album. There's some great bubblegum rock on there.

As for the rest of the bands named, only Judas Priest really call themselves a metal band.

AC/DC call themselves a rock band. Iron Maiden say they play heavy metal, but are just a band. And these days, there's way too many categories anyway. It gets fuzzy and even fans of bands can't always agree on which pigeonhole they fit in.
 

TristramEvans

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Iron Maiden is metal. I'll fight you if you say different :grin: .
FairNervousAtlasmoth-size_restricted.gif
 

Ynas Midgard

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If anything, the main concern some of us are having now is that several full rulesets have disappeared into the ether and more are likely to follow unless some kind of preservation project happens.
I know this one's from last year, but I'm curious: are you talking about old rulesets that are out of print? Or perhaps full variants of En Garde! (something I'd be very interested to look at)?
 

Black Leaf

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I know this one's from last year, but I'm curious: are you talking about old rulesets that are out of print? Or perhaps full variants of En Garde! (something I'd be very interested to look at)?
Full variants! The core rules haven't changed at all really- it's just a bit of formatting. If you want to send me your email by PM I can pass you over what I have. I have some more conventional ones plus things like Vatican (En Garde! as a full clergy game) and Star (En Garde! in spaceeeeeee)
 

CRKrueger

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The issue I would bring up to this is that a band like AC/DC for instance would have hardly considered their music 'metal' when they were at their peak and I doubt would feel much affinity with the musical approach of Maiden or Judas Priest. These definitions were fuzzy and often ill advised from the get go.

In my experience most artists are allergic to their work being slotted into any narrow definition, particularly when it comes with expectations, 'rules,' etc.

Those bands who most readily embraced being 'punk' or 'metal' or whatever were more often hacks, cool chasers, etc.

That so many game designers seem interested in having their work fit under the OSR moniker is strange to me for this reason. Beyond the (very) slight commercial advantage it grants.

I mean I get that being 'cool' is a big attraction to being in a band but it seems oddly odd out place for one of the nerdiest pursuits known to man like game design.
I always saw a difference between "Hard Rock" and "Metal". Maybe the difference was no more than presentation, but it was tangible and noticeable between AC/DC and Metallica/Judas Priest.
 

TristramEvans

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I always saw a difference between "Hard Rock" and "Metal". Maybe the difference was no more than presentation, but it was tangible and noticeable between AC/DC and Metallica/Judas Priest.

I think if I can cearly understand the lyrics, it's hard rock, if it sounds like you're trying to sing while simultaneous laying a man-sized egg, it's heavy metal
 

Stevethulhu

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I think if I can cearly understand the lyrics, it's hard rock, if it sounds like you're trying to sing while simultaneous laying a man-sized egg, it's heavy metal
So Brian Johnson era AC/DC is metal?
 

TristramEvans

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Yeah, Angus is the lead guitarist. He sings backing on like one track, maybe two.

Busted!

yeah, you got me, I just listen to music, I don't really pay close attention to the people in the bands. Someobody at one time told me the singer's name was Angus.

But if that's the case, then ACDC is hard rock, like they've always been
 

Stevethulhu

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yeah, you got me, I just listen to music, I don't really pay close attention to the people in the bands. Someobody at one time told me the singer's name was Angus.

But if that's the case, then ACDC is hard rock, like they've always been
They just call themselves a little rock and roll band. Though I'm surprised you didn't notice that some stuff has a different singer. Bon Scott died in 1980, but before then they did Powerage. Which I think is their best album. Though a lot of people dont necessarily realise there's more to them than Back in Black and Thunderstruck.
 

TristramEvans

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They just call themselves a little rock and roll band. Though I'm surprised you didn't notice that some stuff has a different singer. Bon Scott died in 1980, but before then they did Powerage. Which I think is their best album. Though a lot of people dont necessarily realise there's more to them than Back in Black and Thunderstruck.

I like "Who Made Who" from the Maximum Overdrive Soundtrack
 

Stevethulhu

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While I would never argue that it is a good film, I would say that it is a movie that knows exactly what it wants to be, and doesn't give two shits whether it's 'good' or not.
The short story, Trucks, is much better.
 

zanshin

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I think if I can cearly understand the lyrics, it's hard rock, if it sounds like you're trying to sing while simultaneous laying a man-sized egg, it's heavy metal
In my book , if I want to headbang to it, it's metal.

Clearly the Comic Strip Presents episode 'Bad News' is underutilized in critical game thinking.
 

Stevethulhu

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Also, there is an extended riff where they debate if the band are metal or not.
It's one of the band threatening to quit if they're not a heavy metal band. Because he misunderstood what the supposed band leader was talking about.

Great scene, can't find it on youtube.

The band were actually the cast of The Young Ones, and the core of The Comic Strip Presents. Which was he tv flagship o the so called Alternative Comedy scene. A big movement from the early to mid 80s. Rik Mayall and Adrian Edmondson are British legends.
 

zanshin

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It's one of the band threatening to quit if they're not a heavy metal band. Because he misunderstood what the supposed band leader was talking about.

Great scene, can't find it on youtube.

The band were actually the cast of The Young Ones, and the core of The Comic Strip Presents. Which was he tv flagship o the so called Alternative Comedy scene. A big movement from the early to mid 80s. Rik Mayall and Adrian Edmondson are British legends.
Also, true story, they did a tour as the band. One of my friends saw them at a festival :smile:
 

Stevethulhu

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Also, true story, they did a tour as the band. One of my friends saw them at a festival :smile:
One of mine did, too. They got bottled off the stage, which was a thing at Donnington in the 80s, apparently. And then everyone realised who they actually.were and were gutted to have been such arseholes to them.
 

Ynas Midgard

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Are there such new games that aren't clones or rehashes of old stuff? Is anybody out there producing new stuff that feels like it could have been released in the 80s?
I think the games of DwD Studios (BareBones Fantasy, FrontierSpace, Covert Ops, and Art of Wuxia) and our own Brendan Davis (Terror Network, Sertorius, Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate, etc.) fit the bill, save for random or semi-random character generation. Maybe Fragged Empire and its sister games, too; I'm not that familiar with those.
 

BedrockBrendan

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Like Scott Ian said, if you look up heavy metal in the dictionary, there should be a little picture of Steve Harris there. Any definition of metal that excludes Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath or Judas Priest is not a workable definition of the term IMO.
 
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