Dragonbane is the fantasy RPG I've been looking for

[Sharrow]

Coming from a long period of playing GURPS, which has just that set up for combat - attacker rolls, and if they hit the defender can roll a defence, and they are (critical hits and misses aside) binary. What it does that a blackjack of MoS system does not tend to is not penalise the attacker or defender (aside from increasing their miss chance) for doing things that attract penalties, because all hits are as good as each other.

RQ2 never felt static or boring, but that was probably because 1) there were certain degrees of success, and 2) certain combinations of hits and miss on the attack and parry caused weapon damage, so it was seldom something wasn't being damaged in a potentially troublesome way.

 

[Raleel]

The Dragonbane combat felt extremely dynamic to me, due to how the to hit vs parry/dodge system interacts with the initiative and reaction systems. Not to mention the tactical element of the willpower-fuelled heroic abilities, notably Veteran. Nothing like my memory of playing Runequest combat, which fitted your description.

BTW I was sceptical too until I actually played it.

I’m genuinely glad you like it, and I’m glad to see they are pushing d100 a bit. It needs to happen. Over the last week we’ve had a discussion about pushing the assumptions of d100, and especially from Runequest, baked into many of the folks who discuss it.

honestly, some of what I’m reading makes Dragonbane feel a bit like d20 legend. Notably, action point defense and especially heroic abilities, which are called exactly that in legend.

Combat loses so much dynamism without Blackjack or MOS. I remember encountering this in Mongoose RQ 1 after Sprange had bragged that it could model the Duel of the Fates in Phantom Menace.

This sort of confirms that notion, as legend is mrq2 which was rewritten mrq1

The Dragonbane combat felt extremely dynamic to me, due to how the to hit vs parry/dodge system interacts with the initiative and reaction systems.

What he’s saying is that the higher chance of success for the defender because they don’t have to beat the roll makes it more static. This appears to be a sort of half way point between a free parry (Runequest) and a blackjack+action point (Mythras evade).

Mythras does something similar to Dragonbane on attack and parry if the weapons are the same size or the defending weapon is larger - a successful parry will block all the damage.

so tell me, can a dagger parry a greatsword and avoid all of the damage?

 

[Stan]

so tell me, can a dagger parry a greatsword and avoid all of the damage?

Just off the top of my head, yes. But weapons have damage thresholds - if it blocks more than its threshold, it is ruined until you spend a few hours to repair it. A quick table check shows a dagger has 9 durability (and a knife only 6) and a greatsword does 2d10 plus strength bonus, so there's less than 50% chance of the dagger surviving the encounter. This looks like it also makes crafting useful as you are going to have to repair weapons and shields regularly.

From the chart, it looks like durability takes into account material as well as size. Wooden shafts have lower durability - staves and spears also have durability 9 while a proper sword is 15.

On the whole, I'm finding the changes over the versions to be minor in the greater scheme of things and am still greatly looking forward to the final versions.

 

[S'mon]

so tell me, can a dagger parry a greatsword and avoid all of the damage?

I believe daggers & knives can't be used to parry, being AGL based weapons, while shortswords & larger can, being STR based. A small weapon struck by a large blunt or slashing weapon is likely to break, though swords are pretty robust. You can parry with a shortsword but would be much better off with a shield.

 

[S'mon]

What he’s saying is that the higher chance of success for the defender because they don’t have to beat the roll makes it more static. This appears to be a sort of half way point between a free parry (Runequest) and a blackjack+action point (Mythras evade).

The decision whether to give up your Action to Parry/Dodge is a big one. Or if you won init, do you attack now, using your action, or swap for a lower init and hope the enemy misses? The latter can be optimal play for a more skilled fighter in a duel - parry the opponent until they miss & open themselves up for a killing blow. One thing I saw is that plate armoured characters will be much more aggressive than no/light armour ones, which is very realistic - and my players found it very exciting in a way D&D combat is not.

 

[Raleel]

The decision whether to give up your Action to Parry/Dodge is a big one. Or if you won init, do you attack now, using your action, or swap for a lower init and hope the enemy misses? The latter can be optimal play for a more skilled fighter in a duel - parry the opponent until they miss & open themselves up for a killing blow. One thing I saw is that plate armoured characters will be much more aggressive than no/light armour ones, which is very realistic - and my players found it very exciting in a way D&D combat is not.

Not downplaying the importance at all, and yes, I see a similar thing in Mythras. I think this gets somewhat mitigated by special effects, which can mess you up, but those can be countered by resistances.

I would be interested to see how it compares to openquest or simple quest. I imagine they are pretty close

 

[Stan]

Armor seems like a definite advantage against normal opponents, which makes sense. When you add in monsters, things get complicated. You cannot parry monsters, only dodge. Chain and plate armor give you disadvantage to dodging. But having up to 8 pts of damage reduction could save your bacon if you do get hit.

I like how every step of armor above simple leather makes you bad at a new thing: sneaking, evasion, then acrobatics. Helms also hurt awareness.

 

[Vile Traveller]

I have always felt the disadvantages of heavy armour when adventuring were underestimated. Notwithstanding all those videos of people in full plate running and jumping.

 

[Acmegamer]

Not downplaying the importance at all, and yes, I see a similar thing in Mythras. I think this gets somewhat mitigated by special effects, which can mess you up, but those can be countered by resistances.

I would be interested to see how it compares to openquest or simple quest. I imagine they are pretty close

Been pondering snagging a hardback copy of OpenQuest after seeing your book.

 

[S'mon]

Armor seems like a definite advantage against normal opponents, which makes sense. When you add in monsters, things get complicated. You cannot parry monsters, only dodge. Chain and plate armor give you disadvantage to dodging. But having up to 8 pts of damage reduction could save your bacon if you do get hit.

Plus monsters don't roll to hit, so they won't Dragon (crit) for double damage, which favours armour.

The heavy armour wearer will get hit, but they're not using up their Action to Dodge the way the high Evasion PC is.

 

[Acmegamer]

Plus monsters don't roll to hit, so they won't Dragon (crit) for double damage, which favours armour.

The heavy armour wearer will get hit, but they're not using up their Action to Dodge the way the high Evasion PC is.

Yeah, that's something I truly don't like. The whole "monsters automatically hit" mechanic. Really, really dislike it. I think I'd have to incorporate The Forbidden Realms monsters if I were to run Dragonbane honestly, or some version of it.

 

[zcthu3]

Yeah, that's something I truly don't like. The whole "monsters automatically hit" mechanic. Really, really dislike it. I think I'd have to incorporate The Forbidden Realms monsters if I were to run Dragonbane honestly, or some version of it.

It’s certainly something I wasn’t sure of, but I’ve come around to it. The fact that a (successful) defensive action trumps an attack is part of it (PCs can choose to avoid try and avoid being hit, but it’s up to them whether they take it) and that it‘s only ‘real’ monsters that ‘auto hit’ (i.e. not NPCs or monsters like animated skeletons, but actually terrifying things like dragons or manticores) but also that not every ‘attack’ from a monster is a physical one - basically a monster ‘attack’ could be a terrifying roar, or a magical attack, or a swipe of the claws. It puts the emphasis on the player’s to choose their tactics - they know the monster will do something, and that something might be damage, or something else, and therefore do they wait and see or do they risk it.

 

[Sharrow]

I have always felt the disadvantages of heavy armour when adventuring were underestimated. Notwithstanding all those videos of people in full plate running and jumping.

Heavy armour should be absolutely amazing in combat, and it doesn't really make you less agile in the sense of dodging, etc. However, earing it for all the other parts of the adventure means you're tired, hot, sore, and not stealthy. So in the modern D&D game where 'adventure' tends to mean 'string of tactically interesting combats' you should wear the stuff, and be night invulnerable. In the type of adventures common in literature, where there's lots of spelunking and yomping through the wilderness, it's awful.

 

[S'mon]

A fully armoured up Dragonbane character has Bane on Acrobatics, Evade, Sneaking, Awareness and (with great helm) even Bows. They don't suffer fatigue from wearing it though, AFAICS. A Bane on endurance-based CON checks would be reasonable. But good armour really does make a huge difference in combat; trying to deal with a heavily armoured opponent is very different from lightly armoured and needs different tactics. Eg knocking them prone helps, so does grappling. You can try to use a piercing weapon & seek a gap in the armour - Bane on attacks. You can flail away and hope you Dragon (crit). A crit with a piercing weapon can ignore armour instead of x2 damage, rarely worth it but good if you're a goblin with a D10 shortsword vs 8 point plate & great helm.

 

[Chris Brady]

Plate Harness and fatigue brings up an interesting question. Would it actually be a thing? I ask because no one for at least two hundred years have worn as a means for long term battle protection. Which in turn means that we don't have any idea if the warriors of old ever did find it all that tiring or were they so used to it?

Endurance is not really quantifiable, beyond the words of those in the past, and we all know that history is notorious for glossing over the little details when it comes to edge cases like 'How did it feel to really wear armour?' among other not-so-pressing questions. Given how often the Knights were to wear it, wouldn't they have trained themselves to not be affected by it, or would it be as tiring then as it is now?

 

[S'mon]

I think it's the heat build up that is a problem, not the weight.

 

[Jaeger]

it‘s only ‘real’ monsters that ‘auto hit’ (i.e. not NPCs or monsters like animated skeletons, but actually terrifying things like dragons or manticores)

This is what turned me off the game and caused me not to back the KS.

Are all rolls player facing like in the d20 roll under version of Symbaroum? Or conventional BRP like past DoD and magic world?

Pick. One.

My hat of design decisions like this that try and spit the difference no no limit.

I personally think that they should have used the d20 roll under system of Symbaroum as the base. Enough actual play has been done that the system issues are well known, and could be corrected. Then layer in the design elements to smooth things over and make it unique for DoD.

From what people say of the playtests - I do like some of the ideas in there. But the weird monster/NPC not-monster combat divide makes it a no go.

Sounds like a pdf purchase at best to crib for ideas...

I agree re the skills, I'd prefer a shorter list. Splitting Swimming from Acrobatics, splitting Alertness & Spot Hidden, splitting Bushcraft & Hunting/Fishing - none of those really seem worth it to me.

This is just dumb design. Who are they listening to?

 

[S'mon]

This is just dumb design. Who are they listening to?

Swedes!

 

[Sharrow]

Plate Harness and fatigue brings up an interesting question. Would it actually be a thing? I ask because no one for at least two hundred years have worn as a means for long term battle protection. Which in turn means that we don't have any idea if the warriors of old ever did find it all that tiring or were they so used to it?

Endurance is not really quantifiable, beyond the words of those in the past, and we all know that history is notorious for glossing over the little details when it comes to edge cases like 'How did it feel to really wear armour?' among other not-so-pressing questions. Given how often the Knights were to wear it, wouldn't they have trained themselves to not be affected by it, or would it be as tiring then as it is now?

When you're covered in heavy encumbering gear, the weight and heat build-up is unavoidable, no matter how much you train. If training could bypass it modern soldiers wouldn't have the problems with the 50kg/100lbs+ of gear they have to hump - they'd just train until it didn't bother them.

You can train to a certain degree, and training does mean you have less of a problem with the general awkwardness, and with how crap it feels to be that hot, etc., but the basic biophysics can't be trained away. You're going to go into battle somewhat tired and fatigued if you wear the harness all the time, and you're going to tire faster because of heat build-up. Being acclimatised, strong, and fit all helps, but that helps unencumbered people too.

On the other hand, your armour means all those minor thumps and bumps and glancing blows that you'd otherwise take in the melee don't affect you. Most of the arrows falling from the sky at range don't bother you. Even heavy blows turn into bruises and shoves rather than fight- (and possibly life-) ending hits. That means your dodges and parries cost less energy because they don't have to be as 'good' - deflecting a blow so it lands off-line and slides off your armour, rather than having to make the blow miss entirely, etc. This means you're spending less energy in defence.

We know that overall, armour reached a certain weight and after that point it was better construction and materials that improved it. Also, the hotter the climate the lighter and less covering that maximum was. Also, the more mobile the soldiers needed to be, the less armour. That tells us that heat and running lots were things that stopped you from being able to wear full armour. However, the crusades show that military necessity trumped that to a certain extent - the crusaders wore heavy armour, even when in the Middle East in hot weather, and in doing so forced everyone else to match that.

Heavy armour in rpgs allowing you to take substantial damage from human-scale melee and muscle-powered missile weapons is a conceit intended to make the games more interesting. Without it you have players rolling and getting nothing until someone gets an armour-bypassing critical, and finally manages an effective hold and lock (and the other guy doesn't). So instead we have armour slowing down the attrition of hit points, etc. (and people in leather jackets being somehow as hard to hurt as guys in full plate, but that's another rant).

 

[Sharrow]

This is what turned me off the game and caused me not to back the KS.

Are all rolls player facing like in the d20 roll under version of Symbaroum? Or conventional BRP like past DoD and magic world?

Pick. One.

My hat of design decisions like this that try and spit the difference no no limit.

I personally think that they should have used the d20 roll under system of Symbaroum as the base. Enough actual play has been done that the system issues are well known, and could be corrected. Then layer in the design elements to smooth things over and make it unique for DoD.

From what people say of the playtests - I do like some of the ideas in there. But the weird monster/NPC not-monster combat divide makes it a no go.

I think this is one of the more interesting features. It makes big-ass scary monsters a clearly different category of threat to normal opponents.

 

[S'mon]

I think weight is much more of a problem for the modern soldier than it was for medieval knights. For one thing, the combat load of a US soldier is simply heavier than battlefield plate (and less well distributed); for another, knights were usually mounted. Conversely encasing plate will have much more of a heat problem than modern body armour. Crusaders wore mail, which actually transfers heat well; plate in the desert would be terrible.

 

[Rich H]

Swedes!

... They'd get better responses from turnips!

 

[Sharrow]

Reading parts of the v3 beta, and I notice something weird. Animals other than fowl have very little meat on them. Also horses are inedible, apparently.

 

[Sharrow]

I think weight is much more of a problem for the modern soldier than it was for medieval knights. For one thing, the combat load of a US soldier is simply heavier than battlefield plate (and less well distributed); for another, knights were usually mounted. Conversely encasing plate will have much more of a heat problem than modern body armour. Crusaders wore mail, which actually transfers heat well; plate in the desert would be terrible.

Plate transfers heat each way just as badly, or as well, as mail. And the undercoats in both cases stop sweat evaporating (and tend to get sodden and nasty from it).

As for modern body armour, it's coverage is steadily increasing, and with it heat retention problems because of it. Modern under garments help somewhat (but linen cloth is 'wicking', too). And yes, modern infantry does have (much) more of a weight problem, especially 'light' infantry because they get to walk a lot. However, that's really the point about adventuring in heavy armour - while you might be able to ride a fair bit, a lot of adventure sites are not readily accessible on horseback, and once in them there's a lot of scrabbling around and such that would be a real nuisance and very tiring in heavy armour.

So the real reason adventurers won't be in heavy armour for most fights is that they didn't bring the stuff with them because it's such a pain to carry round or wear constantly when in the wilderness. However, a helmet, breast-and-back, and some plate on the arms is still a lot of protection, and much less of a pain in the arse than a full harness, especially if that partial set is custom made and not some cheap munition plate that's heavier than it needs to be on the arms, lighter than it should be on the chest, poorly shaped, and ill-fitted. And now our adventurers look like the Spanish conquistadors.

 

[Jaeger]

Swedes!

Every. Single. Time.

I think this is one of the more interesting features. It makes big-ass scary monsters a clearly different category of threat to normal opponents.

And it kills my buy-in. Why can't they just scale the creature stats/abilities appropriately?

One man's "Oh, interesting." is another man's "Wait, WTF!?"...

 

[S'mon]

Reading parts of the v3 beta, and I notice something weird. Animals other than fowl have very little meat on them. Also horses are inedible, apparently.

Yup. One of my players is a butcher, I pray she never sees that table! She does have slightly exaggerated ideas of how much meat you'd get off a medieval cow - a lot less than the modern beef cows/steers she carves up - but that table is way off.

 

[Sharrow]

Yup. One of my players is a butcher, I pray she never sees that table! She does have slightly exaggerated ideas of how much meat you'd get off a medieval cow - a lot less than the modern beef cows/steers she carves up - but that table is way off.

Yeah, medieval cattle were somewhat smaller than modern cattle. However, my parents had a Welsh Black cow that looked very like the adult in this picture, but with (sharp) horns:

She only came up to my belly button, but was very stocky and would've had a lot of meat on her. As they're supposed to be little changed from olden times, you'd not be getting the meat off them you'd get from some huge Frisian-Hereford cross, or even your basic shorthorn, but they weren't some little slender thing like a deer, either.

 

[Chris Brady]

And it kills my buy-in. Why can't they just scale the creature stats/abilities appropriately?

One man's "Oh, interesting." is another man's "Wait, WTF!?"...

You can't go lower than 0.

 

[Vile Traveller]

Looks like it's all over bar the typos! From the Fria Ligan forums:

The Dragonbane core game has been sent to print, but we have just a few more days to catch typos. Updated PDFs have been sent out via Drivethru RPG. Please use this thread to report any typos you find in the Rulebook or the solo rules booklet.

 

[finarvyn]

Can't wait for it to be printed and shipped. I'm looking forward to running this with my crew.

 

[Vile Traveller]

I have an idea for a mini campaign I might write.

 

[S'mon]

Just ran an awesome first online session of Dragonbane set in the World of Xoth! https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html I still have one more place (& pregen) available, if anyone here would like to try it out?

 

[S'mon]

Just ran an awesome first online session of Dragonbane set in the World of Xoth! https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html I still have one more place (& pregen) available, if anyone here would like to try it out?

They rescued the princess, and only one PC died, Kromdar of Thule. Thanks to how dying works in Dragonbane, he actually cut the last rope to free her from the sacrificial demon altar before collapsing and dying in her arms as she wept over him.

 

[CRKrueger]

Yeah, medieval cattle were somewhat smaller than modern cattle. However, my parents had a Welsh Black cow that looked very like the adult in this picture, but with (sharp) horns:

She only came up to my belly button, but was very stocky and would've had a lot of meat on her. As they're supposed to be little changed from olden times, you'd not be getting the meat off them you'd get from some huge Frisian-Hereford cross, or even your basic shorthorn, but they weren't some little slender thing like a deer, either.

I’ve heard we used to want shorter bovines and oxen, they pull better with a lower center of gravity.

That cow looks decidedly nonplussed at whoever’s taking a picture of her calf.

 

[Sharrow]

That cow looks decidedly nonplussed at whoever’s taking a picture of her calf.

"Think very carefully about your next move, Monkeyboy."

 

[Necrozius]

Just ran an awesome first online session of Dragonbane set in the World of Xoth! https://simonyrpgs.blogspot.com/2023/03/sword-sorcery-cultures-for-dragonbane.html I still have one more place (& pregen) available, if anyone here would like to try it out?

This was pretty awesome. Great rundown of the rules too. Kind of selling me on the system.

I can’t read the signature on the artwork. Do you know who the artist is?

 

[S'mon]

This was pretty awesome. Great rundown of the rules too. Kind of selling me on the system.

I can’t read the signature on the artwork. Do you know who the artist is?

Yes! Deceased Spanish artist Brocal Remohi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Brocal_Remohí
He seems to have mostly worked for French comics. For someone used to Frazetta, I love how his art is both familiar & yet slightly weird/unsettling. I've been trying to find a print compilation but they're (a) in French and (b) OOP.

The default Dragonbane setting is pretty standard Tolkienesque fantasy (plus ducks), but after running a couple sessions I realised it ought to be awesome for an S&S game.

 

[Acmegamer]

Yes! Deceased Spanish artist Brocal Remohi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Brocal_Remohí
He seems to have mostly worked for French comics. For someone used to Frazetta, I love how his art is both familiar & yet slightly weird/unsettling. I've been trying to find a print compilation but they're (a) in French and (b) OOP.

The default Dragonbane setting is pretty standard Tolkienesque fantasy (plus ducks), but after running a couple sessions I realised it ought to be awesome for an S&S game.

Yeah, really liked his art in your link. Reading through your link off and on as I've got a free moment. Loving what I'm reading so far. Strongly agree with ya on the S&S. You should organize the information you've put together and add it to our download. Its looking good.

What can you tell me about the info for Xoth?

 

[S'mon]

Yeah, really liked his art in your link. Reading through your link off and on as I've got a free moment. Loving what I'm reading so far. Strongly agree with ya on the S&S. You should organize the information you've put together and add it to our download. Its looking good.

What can you tell me about the info for Xoth?

Xoth https://xoth.net/publishing/ - I'd recommend reading a free Player's Guide eg https://xoth.net/publishing/freebies/world_of_xoth_players_guide_5e.pdf

It leans in really hard to the 'Orientalist fantasy' but in a way that can keep even rpgnet mostly onside - https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/17/17161.phtml - there's no superior 'white saviour' European type culture to look down on the main cultures of the setting, which tend to be a mix of Indo-Iranian, Turkic, and Arabic/Semitic type tropes. It's very big on deserts, plains and steaming jungles. I was saying to one of my players today, it takes all the RE Howard tropes not covered by Primeval Thule, and dials it up really high. Teeming cities, vast deserts, dry hills. There's a definite sense of space, more than I see elsewhere. In some ways it feels very grounded, the way the 1982 Conan the Barbarian film felt almost as if it was set in real places.

 

[Acmegamer]

Xoth https://xoth.net/publishing/ - I'd recommend reading a free Player's Guide eg https://xoth.net/publishing/freebies/world_of_xoth_players_guide_5e.pdf

It leans in really hard to the 'Orientalist fantasy' but in a way that can keep even rpgnet mostly onside - https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/17/17161.phtml - there's no superior 'white saviour' European type culture to look down on the main cultures of the setting, which tend to be a mix of Indo-Iranian, Turkic, and Arabic/Semitic type tropes. It's very big on deserts, plains and steaming jungles. I was saying to one of my players today, it takes all the RE Howard tropes not covered by Primeval Thule, and dials it up really high. Teeming cities, vast deserts, dry hills. There's a definite sense of space, more than I see elsewhere. In some ways it feels very grounded, the way the 1982 Conan the Barbarian film felt almost as if it was set in real places.

Totally tracking that and thanks for the links.